Podcast Player Episode 068

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really excited today to have with me my dear friend, longtime friend, Diana Feldman, who is a board certified drama therapist, and one of the pioneers and founders of, um, drama therapy in not only in New York City, but in in the country and, uh, around the globe. Diana's new book, stuck in a role releasing trauma in teens through the Enact Drama Therapy Method is going to be available for pre-order as of this moment and also, um, in stores and where you can buy books everywhere at the end of March. Is that correct? It, it will be out in May. The hard copy in Barns and Nobles and other stories. That's, that's fabulous. Um, I'm gonna ask Diana to tell us a little bit about her background, how she got into drama therapy, but I just want to tell all of you, my listeners and our audience that, um, I've worked with Diana, it's been a while since I've worked with Diana, but we did work together and I've seen her work, and it is so compelling to, to watch children reach their, um, their inner selves and, and their emotional life and be able to, uh, live their emotions in a role play that then allows them to transfer it to their real life.

Dr. Robin Stern: And it's very powerful work, and I'm not doing an adequate job of describing it. So I'm gonna definitely turn it right now. Over to you. Diana, tell us about drama therapy. Tell us about your work and how you got into it.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Okay. Well, you explained it I thought very well. Um, so Enact is actually, um, the name of a method I created. It's called the Enact Method, but it was also the name of an organization, a nonprofit organization that for 30 years worked in the New York public schools with kids that, you know, had behavior problems, which we believe was trauma, unexpressed trauma. And we worked with over 200,000 students, um, in regular schools, but also in alternative schools and juvenile justice centers. And we grew from a little company of four to having 60, um, teaching artists and drama therapists and professional actors deliver these programs right into the classroom.

Dr. Robin Stern: Diana, before you go any further, please tell our listeners what is drama therapy?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Okay. Drama therapy, thank you for asking, is a form. It is psychotherapy. It is a form of psychotherapy that uses role play, storytelling, theater, games, masks. It's an embodied approach, which, you know, if, I suppose it falls into the category of music therapy and art therapy, but I'll tell you that drama therapy is right now being really looked at as a, a form of treating trauma because everybody talks about how trauma lives in the body, right? And when you're doing role playing, you can be spontaneous and express yourself and move your body in ways that you can't. My book is called Stuck in a Role because trauma keeps you stuck. So it's been around, it's still new as far as, you know, it's newer than music therapy, let's say. But there are, there are programs around the country and around the world now that are teaching drama therapy.

Dr. Diana Feldman: And drama therapy is really about embracing, just like in psychotherapy, your authentic self and embracing all the different parts of yourself. Like, it's similar to IFS if, you know, internal family systems, that we all play these different parts. You know, you're a mother, you're a teacher, you're a writer, and we believe mental health in drama therapy is a balance of these roles, that you don't just feel that you're one role and you're stuck in it and you hold onto it because it keeps you prisoner in this one rigid role. And all of us do it to some extent, but we believe mental health is being flexible, that you can be all these roles and accept all these parts of yourself.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Thank you for that really wonderful answer. And, um, what led you to develop this specific methodology? I mean, you're, the way you're describing drama therapy sounds like, well, I wonder, can anybody just get up there and, and say, act it out? So there, yeah,

Dr. Diana Feldman: I,

Dr. Robin Stern: That is not really, and especially if it's not a trained person, wouldn't, certainly wouldn't recommend it. So how did you develop this methodology? And, and I'd like you to talk also a little bit about how you develop your teachers to train, how you train your teachers to do this methodology,

Dr. Diana Feldman: Right? Yeah. Um, you're absolutely right. When you're doing role play, it looks easy. Oh, I can get up and do that. But you are touching deep parts of people, including their unconscious, including these parts that they don't wanna look at, and you don't wanna re-traumatize when you do role play. And it is very important to be trained in role play and like any good therapist being able to hold and contain, you know, the space for the people that are doing the role play. And we've discovered that part of role playing is not only the doing of it, but being witnessed, being witnessed for being able to find your voice.

Dr. Robin Stern: Can you say why that's important?

Dr. Diana Feldman: I'm, I'm gonna speak from a trauma lens because that's what my book is all about. When, when people are traumatized, they generally, everything's different, tend to isolate, shut down, freeze, you know, all its symptoms, freeze, all of those collapse. But when they can tap an authentic part of themselves, which happens in role play in particular, um, you know, good role play, trained role play to be witnessed for your authenticity when you've been covering it up for your whole life, is so powerful and so cathartic. You're being held and you're being seen and celebrated for who you are, which, particularly for teens, um, and adolescents, it's the most critical time for them because they care. You know, they're individuating from their parents. They care so much about their peers. In some cases, their peers become a family to them if they haven't had a supportive family. To be witnessed in a positive way by your peers is so powerful. So, um, the enact method, I'll just explain it briefly, but the whole book explains it, is basically it's aimed at helping people tap their authentic self.

Dr. Robin Stern: For a lot of people listening there, I can imagine they're thinking, well, what is an authentic self? I thought I was being me. So what, what do you mean by that?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Well, thank you. Good question. I don't know if you know Gabor Ma, Dr. Gabor mate's work, but he speaks a lot about the authentic self. It's your gut feelings, it's your inner voice, it's your intuition. That's who you really are. And particularly, you know, I'm focusing on adolescents because that's what my work mostly was, though. We worked with all ages, but, um, they worked so hard to cover up who they really are for fear of being bullied, of being gaslighted, which we'll talk about. We'll talk about how they gaslight themselves through playing these roles. But the enact method is basically, it looks like if you walked into a room, it looks like you're playing theater games and you're doing role play, right? It looks easy and it's really not easy. All, all the theater games are about emotion regulation. They're about helping people deal with emotional triggers. Everything is about becoming self-aware. So it looks like we have two instructors. The best case scenario is it's a drama therapist or therapist. I've trained therapists in this and a skilled actor, right? And we'll talk about later, well, what do I do if there's no actor? I can't find one. There are ways, so I'm just gonna describe the enact method in a very general way, because it's complicated, somewhat. Uh,

Dr. Robin Stern: Be sure to include what the differences between storytelling and role playing.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Yes. Okay. 'cause storytelling's beautiful, and we use aspects of it. So I will talk about that. Enact the method developed, um, in much more, uh, detail complex after September 11th when we were called in to work with kids who were downtown and would not speak, who had to evacuate their building, and they wouldn't speak to traditional therapists. They had brought in all these, the, and the kids were shut down. And so luckily this principal knew us, and she called us and she said, please, you know, work with these kids, help them express themselves. They're fro they were frozen. You know, here's where I'm gonna talk about role play and storytelling. So the way the method works is we do an assessment, like a therapist would do an intake, right? Um, from the principal and the teachers in the beginning. What do you see the issues as?

Dr. Diana Feldman: What do you think the feelings are, right? And so for example, after September 11th, it was fear and shock, right? And tell us about your kids. And a lot of the kids in Act worked with often had behavior problems. They were oppositional that we were told. I mean, we loved it because once we found out what the issues were, what we would do is select our team, go right into the classroom and engage, immediately engage the group with usually really fun theater games, sample of a theater game. Okay? So if we always work in circles, we work in circles because especially with trauma, right? We want people to feel a sense of unity and belonging. So everyone is in a circle, and we have three levels of theater games. Uh, when I train people, I tell 'em, it's not about the game, it's about the way you do it.

Dr. Diana Feldman: So they must read the group. With teens, there's usually a lot of resistance, right? So we always let them know right away, if anything looks stupid to you, you don't wanna do it. Please tell us. Just say pass. So immediately they feel safe, right? Um, and then we laugh and we say, but if you all pass, there's no group. Then we start with what we call unison games, which is where the leader leads the game, whatever it is. Could be clapping, could be a call in response, a rhythm. This way nobody feels on the spot. The kids just have to repeat, right? Well, but then once they do that and they're more comfortable, we move into what's called interpersonal games. Those are games where they relate with each other. That's really important, especially when we we're told there are issues it with bullying and fighting.

Dr. Diana Feldman: And so once they feel safe, we move into these interpersonal, very safe games. And then ultimately we move into what's called individual games, um, which could be storytelling, which could be some, we're in a circle, and this is at the very safest level where somebody might stand up and tell us one great thing that happened to them, right? So we have these three levels that we always move back and forth to create a comfort level and engagement. Then we do a scene. Now I'm using September 11th, because it's a pretty intense situation. You pick the scene or did based on what you see, or do you ask people to give you a scene? No. Well, later we ask them the art of the, this is the art of the method. Mm-hmm . Is to create a scene that has to do with the situation, but is not the situation.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Uhhuh , we call it dis distancing. That's a big word in drama therapy right now. If it's too distance, the group won't relate to it. If it's, we call it under distance, where people are just flooding with emotions, the kids won't feel safe. The way the role play works is an actor and a therapist. Best case scenario. We now ask the kids to move out of the circle, move into their seats, and we do a role play. So for example, we always work from the core feeling. The core feeling with the September 11th was shock and fear. We knew that. And particularly these kids who would not speak, it was too much for them. They shut down. So what did we do? We thought, how can we make this safe and get them to talk about their feelings? That's the goal. To help them feel safe to, so we created a scene about, um, and also the principal asked us to deal with the diversity because there were kids that were like making fun of Muslim kids and everything.

Dr. Diana Feldman: So we put that in. We just simply had two people at a bus stop. One was the part of a Muslim woman who bumps into the woman as she's running for the bus. And the other woman goes into complete fear and shock. And she says, who are you? What are you doing? Get away from me. Why are you wearing that thing on your head? Are you gonna try to kill me? Okay, so that's the scene, that's the frame. And then what we do, that's the distance, is we do the opposite. We under distance, we let the cat out of the bag. The actor says how they're feeling through a monologue. So we say freeze. They're at the height of conflict, right? Who are, you get away from me. I'm gonna call the police freeze. And then they speak to the audience, oh my God, who is this person?

Dr. Diana Feldman: I don't feel safe with everything that's going on in the world. I don't know. She could blow me up. I can't handle it. I don't know what to do. So she is speaking the voice of the group, hopefully if we've done our assessment correctly. Um, and then we just go back into the scene and end it with a big dramatic ending. And the next part is the facilitation. And that is where we break out of the scene and we turn to the group. And our goal is to get them to talk about what they couldn't talk, what they couldn't voice. And we do it through the other character. How do you think this woman was feeling? What do you think she was thinking? What did she say in the monologue? So they don't have to talk about themselves, they're talking about the character. But what we do is, and again, this is an art, it's, they slowly, slowly ask more and more questions that have to do with the kids.

Dr. Diana Feldman: So it might be, does this look familiar? Have you ever seen anything like this? What were these feelings? And they'll say fear. They'll say shock. Have you guys ever felt fear and shock? Boom. They opened up and they spoke about their feelings for the first time. The principal could not believe it. She had brought in the top. And then from there, the kids trusted us. And then they got to do their own role playing. And eventually, actually, here's the storytelling. We did a play. We don't always do this, we do this after we've worked for a long period of time. But it was too, the kids were too traumatized to play themselves. So we made them the directors, and they chose the actors. And they, they told us a story of what happened and we recorded it. And so they told their stories and they, they directed the actors, you are me. I want you to tell this story. Here's what happened to me. And so when we staged it, they stood behind the actors, but they didn't have to speak. And they were witnessed for their story. And then at the very end, the audience was like, blown away. And then I could say to them, what did it feel like to have people tell your story? And that's the witnessing. They broke down. It's was cathartic for them. They couldn't tell it themselves. So it really depends on the amount of trauma, the different techniques that we use.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I just wanna say that so powerful. Even as you're telling the story, I'm just imagining these kids standing behind someone who is enacting their story and or telling their story, if not enacting it. And, um, what that must have been like. And just, so, sounds beautiful, really like such a beautiful work. But just to make the point for everyone listening, that first scene was not done by the students. The first scene is done by an act.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Okay? Right? Thank you. So well, absolutely. But I forgot to tell you how it becomes, the kids become replay, right? Robin, you might look at this as we're teaching social emotional skills, which we are. Because at the end of the day, we say to the kids, what do you think this woman could have done? How could she have communicated her feelings? Right? Um, how could she have voiced these skills of communication, these skills of listening, right? And they tell us and we discuss it with them. And then they come up and replay the scene and they actually practice the skills. So they're embodying the skills. And that's very powerful for them as well. Even if it was just a scene. Our favorite scene, 'cause we work so much with kids who've been in trouble in school, is a teacher yelling at a kid because of their behavior.

Dr. Diana Feldman: And the kid acting out and the teacher yells and the kid blows up, gets triggered. And when we stop that scene and a and, and the kid will say, freeze inside, she doesn't understand me. Nobody cares about me. I don't even live at home. What does she want from me? Who, who does she think she is? My mother? Anyway, we say to the kids, same thing. Is it realistic? Then we talk it through. We work on skills, and they come up and they replay. And when they replay, that's their authentic self because they find their voice. And it might be the kids saying to the teacher, you can't talk to me like that right now. I'm having a really, really hard time. Can we find a time later? And I'll tell you, and this is when we see these tough kids, shed a tear or laugh 'cause they finally found their voice.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, that sounds incredible. Really incredible. I think. Um, I think I'd like to pivot, if you will, to gaslighting and, um, I tell us what your, when of course you knew that I was writing about this, and here's the book. You know, here's the podcast years later. And, um, when you think about your work and gaslighting, what comes to mind for you?

Dr. Diana Feldman: I feel that kids are not only gaslighting each other through bullying and disempowering, but they're gaslighting themselves. And this is what I speak about in the book. That these kids play roles. They're the class clown. They're the bully. They're the victim. We saw it over and over again. We did a five-year study through a Ford Foundation grant, um, show. That's why the method's, evidence-based now, but showing these roles over and over again, and it's, they kind of put, these roles are false selves. And we know that adolescents often create false selves to protect themselves.

Dr. Robin Stern: Do they become those roles in tho that moment?

Dr. Diana Feldman: We believe, and my book is called Stuck in a role, right? Releasing Trauma. We believe that the roles, these gestures, these postures are like embedded, become embedded in their nervous system. They're practicing them every day, and they're getting, their peers are giving them positive, you know, the class clown who interrupts the teacher, right? And the teacher is also, uh, giving them attention, which is what they're craving for. So whether it's good or bad attention. So they just keep honing the role, getting further and further away from who they really are. And then their peers get into it with them, you know? And then these teachers, for example, we would walk into classrooms, no blaming at all of teachers. They really try their best. Sometimes it's easy to label a kid. I see that as a form of gaslighting, but not on purpose. He's the bad kid. Why do I see it as a form of gaslighting? Because I then walk into the classroom, I open the door, a girl introduces herself and she goes, hi, we're the bad kids. So they internalize the label. So they become, they're sort of gaslighting themselves and they're, they're confusing themselves. They're disempowering themselves, right? We know they do it to each other a lot with peer pressure. So that's, I, you know, I don't know if that fits into your explanation. Of

Dr. Robin Stern: Course, of course. I think it's a really, um, smart or really great observation of your practice and, um, and a great, uh, starting place for releasing and enact being a great starting place for releasing people who are stuck in a role, right? So if you wanted to cast a scene about gaslighting and stuck in a role, what, what could that look like in a teenage high school classroom?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Well, I'd have to do an, an assessment. Mm-hmm . Because every piece of the scene, this is why role play looks easy, but it's not. We have to look at the environment. What is it in a classroom? Okay, it's in a classroom. How do the kids relate to authority? How do they relate to each other? Is there bullying? So we're chockfull of all this information, right? So then the question would be, would you want it to be, and we often, you know, talk to the teacher or the therapist, what is it that you want them to become aware of? Because it's so pushed down in their unconscious and this work brings it up, it surfaces it. So let's say you were the teacher or the therapist. What is your goal with the gaslighting? What do you want?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So I want kids to, um, to not take on other people's reality as their own, unless they really believe it and not even take on the assignment of a role, even if it's a self assignment. But usually it comes from someone else initially, if they believe it, if that, that role doesn't belong. So what would, what do we do?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Good. See, I needed that info. The reason I did the info is because I'm looking at what we're trying to get the kids to become aware of. And now you're saying to me, I want them to become aware of the fact that they're believing these roles, right? So, okay, so now I would do a scene of someone else putting them in that role. So since it's in a school, let's say, right? Parents do it to their kids all the time, by the way, they don't do it on purpose. We can get into that. But right now we're in a classroom. So we would do a scene, let's say, of a teacher and a student in some kind of a conflict. The student comes in late, okay? And the, and the t and is interrupting the class, right? So now we have two people. We have an actor and a therapist or two actors trained in this.

Dr. Diana Feldman: And then, um, so comes in late and the teacher says, here you go again, Mr. Late, you know, you're always late. You can never get here on time. What are you late? You know, how are you ever gonna have a job? You're always late. I'm just using the word, the role, Mr. Late, you know, um, or, or you know, you just look at you look how you, you know, if let's say it was a clown, oh, and now you're clowning around, you're such a clown. You are such a clown, right? And then the, the, we would make the scene where the kid then exaggerates that behavior. Yeah, yeah, I'm late and I'm a clown. Watch me. You know? And then he'll do like clowning and the teacher will get angrier and angrier, you know, oh, here you go again, you're so bad. You know? And you're such a clown. And, and the kid is like, well, yeah, I'm a clown. And slams out of the room. Okay? Um, now we may do an inner monologue or we may not. And the inner

Dr. Robin Stern: Monologue would be the kids standing up and saying, like,

Dr. Diana Feldman: What? You tell me what would be a good, you're a therapist. What would the kids say if he's buying into the role?

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, he might say, I don't know if I like this. Like, I'm not so comfortable. Or, I am a clown. Everyone says I'm a clown. I must be a clown. Like, I didn't use to think I was a clown, but I'm being called a clown all the time. Like, okay, I'm just gonna be a clown

Dr. Diana Feldman: Freeze. Okay? Now, by the way, you're not an actress, but you're a therapist and so, and a therapist or actress, but you got it right? That's a very clear way to go. There could be other ways. You just did the inner monologue. Okay? Then we freeze this scene, they get into a fight, the kid goes, I'm leaving. Ha, I'm a clown. I'm bad. You know? And then he leaves freeze. We turn to the kids, the facilitator says, and by now the kids are laughing.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm

Dr. Diana Feldman: . Why do you think they're laughing?

Dr. Robin Stern: Because the exaggeration, well, first of all, they may be uncomfortable. Secondly, they're um, they may recognize that kind of exaggeration in their own, uh, moments of self gaslighting, even if it's not about being a clown,

Dr. Diana Feldman: Right? And so, you know, we always exaggerate, that's another form of distancing. So nobody feels they're being called out because the worst form of self gaslighting is feeling shame, because then you have to cover up for the shame, right? So the actors were big, they exaggerated. And then we say, we move from distanced to more personal. Does this look familiar? Have you guys ever seen this in schools? What do you think they might say? First of all, tell us like, did we play it right? Was it realistic? Mm-hmm . What, what, what might they say?

Dr. Robin Stern: Sure. Uh, yes. Like yesterday I saw it in science class or like, wow, that really sucks. I saw it like last week with myself. Like, I did that in gym last week.

Dr. Diana Feldman: So you think kids, I, I don't, you know, it's a lot of questions. I don't really understand what this student was doing. What was he doing? Was he believing he was a clown? And so there's a discussion. Yeah, he was, kids believe their, then it gets into why do kids, 'cause you wanted me to talk about how they get stuck and hold onto it, which is my book about why do kids do it? Or you even, you mentioned you do it, I do it too, actually, I act like a clown sometimes too. So why? So then we get into a conversation about that until there's a real comfort level and whatever's been hiding or not in consciousness is right in front of us to deal with. And then hopefully we would get to a, we would get to talking about why do people feel they have to cover up being who they really are?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Then there's a whole conversation about that. Now we wanna practice a skill. So what do you, now that we've talked about all of this, that he was acting like a clown, what do you think he'd look like if he wasn't playing the part of the clown? And you'd say that. And I'd say, you know what? Can you do me a favor? Will you come up and replay it? But remember, you're not gonna play the part of the clown you're going to, what might you say to this teacher from a real place where you don't, you are not the clown? What might you say?

Dr. Robin Stern: And what happens then? Um, if, if what you're asking the student to do is, well, I guess it is a little bit of the same thing I was gonna say is to stand up to someone else calling him, uh, putting that reality in his mind, um, when it was never there to begin with. Like this, it sounds like in this role play, um, the, the kid got so easily into the role of the clown that it can't be the first time he heard it. So, but what if it is actually the first time they're hearing it? Is it different?

Dr. Diana Feldman: That's a good question. 'cause the kids that we've worked with, we were always called into classrooms with quote behavior problems. So they've already embodied the role, right?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes.

Dr. Diana Feldman: But that could be a good, if that was something that we felt was important, then we would play it as if it was the first time it happened. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Okay. And

Dr. Diana Feldman: The kid might say, A clown, do I look like a clown? I don't mean to be acting like, you know?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And then men begin to help somebody to stand up for their truth and to have the, uh, the presence and the words and the moment of emotion regulation needed to stand up to their truth for their truth,

Dr. Diana Feldman: Right? Which is why the opening theater games are all about emotional regulation, breathing, self-talk counting. So we would say to them, oh, remember the game we played? Before you confront the teacher in a non confront, let's do some breathing. Let's count to 10. And in fact, we always offer to have, uh, an actor or the therapist stand behind the kid if they get stuck. So they're empowered every step of the way, and they trust that they're not gonna be shamed.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I, I wanna say one word about shame and then just go back to big picture book and, and the whole method. But it, I think the shame piece is really important because once there's shame, then there are that many more layers to get through for someone to reach their authentic self. So, um, I I just can't, the training for your work is so important and thank you for it like doing it. And I think that the method is, um, it's really genius. It's genius because it, uh, it speaks to people who can't speak for themselves. And it speaks to people who don't have words. And you don't need words to start out. You can just watch. And I, I think that that is, it's really powerful

Dr. Diana Feldman: And thank you for bringing that up about shame. You know, all of these roles I see as defenses, they're just a defense against feeling what you're scared to feel, you know? And so the worst thing you can do is have a kid feel shamed in front of his peers. It's traumatic. So, which is why they will defend with these roles.

Dr. Robin Stern: It is wonderful that kids are smart enough to have roles so that they can defend themselves when they feel they need it. And also, what I love about an act and this work is that they can feel liberated and not needed in that moment. And still know out there in the world they can, they can have that role if they need it at any time.

Dr. Diana Feldman: This is how genius you are. I wanna tell you something, Robin. I had a brief conversation with Gabor Mate about this because of his, um, his work on authenticity. I was just at a conference and we were speaking about the, you know, I was telling 'em about my work and I said, you know, but these kids live in violent neighborhoods, right? So if they don't put on the role of the tough, you know, that they can't be touched. If they're open and vulnerable, they could get hurt. And so what do you think about that? I said, you're teaching people to be authentic, but what about people who live in violent communities, et cetera. And he was like, oh my God, you're so right. He said, the thing is, is that just what you said, Robin, not to tell them not to keep. You need your defenses sometimes, but that you can be fluid, you don't have to use it sometimes. And when you have to use it, you've gotten good at it, use it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Very important.

Dr. Robin Stern: Are there any simple drama exercises that people can do at home?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Well, you know, one of the audience for the book are brave parents. The book is for teachers, therapists, clearly teaching artists and brave parents, right? So, um, it's very tricky 'cause you don't have the distance 'cause it's your, if, if it's your family. But there are very basic games that you can play. Remember in the beginning I said just do unison together to build trust. I mean you, if your kids are willing to do it, and these are good for little kids too. You can sit around before dinner and everybody tap out this rhythm. Okay, now you pick a rhythm. Now you tap out these safe unison games or, you know, um, pass an imaginary object around the table. They're fun and they're funny, you know, with 30 seconds say the funniest thing that happened to you today. These are just fun theater games. They're icebreakers that can be done,

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I'll share with you that, um, true story. When my kids were young, very often at the dinner table, we would have like a little fun role play. And that was always, uh, initiated by me. And some of them as they got older, were about, um, how do you say no to someone who offers you a drink and you're going off to high school now? And, and so my kids got very good at rolling their eyes the minute I said, how about doing a role play tonight? And so they would roll their eyes and then nonetheless they would get up and they would enact this role play. And, um, at some point, one of my children, went off to college. And on the trip, um, the bonding trip was offered alcohol that was in a, um, a Listerine bottle. And not only did my child know what to say exactly in the moment, um, that, that they were comfortable with, but also, um, heard people really having trouble coming up with words, uh, because they didn't wanna do it, but they also didn't wanna not belong.

Dr. Diana Feldman: They didn't have the skill and they didn't wanna not belong. So that's amazing that you were able to do it and there was a little resistance, but because you have such trust with your kids who are amazing and I've met to begin with, you were able to do it. And if you do have a great relationship with your kids, kids, you know, uh, you could do it or ask one of your kids to do it with you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Whereas, or role play a fight that you had with someone or role play something that you wanted to say no to.

Dr. Diana Feldman: You just wanna find a little distance so they don't feel embarrassed. So yeah, it, it really depends on, uh, you know, your relationship. But it's a great way to teach skills,

Dr. Robin Stern: I think it is as well

Dr. Diana Feldman: At its most basic.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, exactly. And useful. Very practical. Well, thank you for this amazing work that you've brought it to the world really, and not just to this podcast and to our, our listeners. And thank you for the book that you wrote.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Whole first quarter of the book is about trauma, understanding trauma, understanding triggers, understanding freeze and body responses. Then the next part of the book is all about the roles that people take on, even from in their own families. When parents will say, oh, he's the funny one, he is the clown, or he is the silly one. And we go into the roles. And then the last, you know, third of the book is teaching the actual method

Dr. Robin Stern: Stuck in a role. It's brilliant title, great cover, and thank you for this incredible work and for being my guest today. And we'll have to do it again. 'cause I like the role play

Dr. Diana Feldman: . Oh, definitely. We do trainings. We're gonna have a certification program. There's a lot going on. But thank you Robin, from the beginning for seeing that this and actually helping in many ways. We met several times to discuss the curriculum and I am always grateful for that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you very much. And Diana, where can people find you?

Dr. Diana Feldman: Okay, so the book, first of all is on Rutledge. So it's, um, the Rutledge books and you can pre-order now. It's also, you can pre-order on Amazon. Uh, we're gonna have a book launch in May, so people are invited to that. And so, um, I wish I had it written out, but it's Diana at Drama Soul, D-R-A-M-A-S-O l.com. That's the website. And we're putting up a page about the book now. And you certainly, you know, you can look at the website. My email information is there and I'm happy to speak to anyone about this.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's very generous, thank you. And thank you for letting us know where you can be found. And thank you again for today. Thank you listeners, and look forward to seeing you next time.

Dr. Diana Feldman: Thank you, Robin.

Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.