Podcast Player Episode 067

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. Today I'm very excited to have with me my friend and colleague for many years, Jessica Hoffman. Dr. Jessica Hoffman is an assistant professor at the Yale Child Study Center and the Director of research for the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence in Implementation Science. Jessica has an area of specialty and special interest teens, uh, would you say adolescent science?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Sure. Adolescent development, yeah,

Dr. Robin Stern: Adolescent development. And has run our high school program for, for many, many years. I dunno how many years it's been since we have known each other since you've come to the center. But, uh, I'm just thrilled that you're doing the work you're doing and you contribute every single day to conversations. Take the initiative, share your wisdom, um, take us in directions that we might not have thought of. Always bring in the teen voice. And Jessica and I have worked together in a number of different ways. Not only presenting together through the years, but also running and leading groups, uh, leading groups and facilitating groups for teens at the intersection of social media and digital technology and mental health. Uh, we also work together with Facebook when it was Facebook many years ago on a program called Inspire Ed. And I'm gonna stop there because I'd love for you to talk about Inspire ed and, uh, a little bit more about your history. 'cause I know you come to us with mentors. Some of your mentors are people that our audience will know.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah. Thank you Robin. It's great to be here. Um, I'm Jessica Hoffman. Uh, I'm a clinical psychologist by training, so Robin and I have also the mental health background in common, and I think connect around that a lot. Um, I joined the center in August, right before we launched as the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Um, so it's been 12 years. Um, I, yeah, I started as a postdoc. I, my, um, clinical training. Uh, what I studied was really around creativity and the role, the intersection of creativity and emotions. Um, so how children and adolescents can engage in, uh, creative expression as a way, um, to support their mental health, but also to build their emotion skills because you have to be brave enough to do something different than your peers. And then you have to be able to handle critical feedback. Uh, you have to get excited about an idea, but then be able to regulate and sit down and focus.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, so that's really where I started at the center. And then as Robin said, um, because of my work with adolescents, led our high school work. Um, and then really tried to combine the two in Inspire ed, um, which is a free program that helps groups of middle and high school students come together and work on a project to improve their school's climate. Um, and so of course we've sort of folded together both emotional intelligence and the creative problem solving process. They start by assessing their school, and we ask them, what frustrates you? What disappoints you? What makes you angry about the way things are here? Um, and could those be signs that there's an opportunity to do something different? Uh, then they brainstorm ideas, which is of course a creative process, um, where we try to bring up more high energy, pleasant emotions and optimism and unconventional thinking. Um, then they have to sit down and commit to and actually complete the project of their choosing. And we talk about emotion regulation around motivation and handling setbacks.

Dr. Robin Stern: What would be an example of a project that a high school might do?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: We've had, uh, a range of projects. Um, we had a school actually here in Connecticut that decided to put on a, um, museum display in the lobby of the School for Black History Month. Students brought in artifacts from home, curated an exhibit, and then actually the social studies department started going on in-school field trips down to the exhibit. Uh, and so the students were able to share a little bit about themselves from home and feel more like they were included and belonged at school. Uh, the other students were able to benefit from that experience. And then they also learned things about museum curation. And what do you put on the card that goes next to a display? Um, that was one, we had a school that, um, they tend to differentiate by how old they are and what they're willing to pull off. So actually during Covid, we had a school that decided that the students were all learning over Zoom, and they felt like a lot of students benefit from hands-on learning in the classroom. And they weren't getting any of that over Zoom. So they asked the student body, uh, what kind of hands-on things they would benefit from. They ran a fundraiser to get the materials and sent it to all of their peers. And then the teachers were able to teach a hands-on lesson over Zoom because the kids all had the stuff at home.

Dr. Robin Stern: That sounds wonderful. Really wonderful. What else would you like to share with us about your background? And by the way, I did forget to say that you are the proud mom of, um, three incredible children, right? Who your mentoring as they're growing up among Mommying , right? Between mom and Moments mentoring moments. Yes.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, I have three kids. I have a 9-year-old son. He's about to be 10 in in April. Uh, a 6-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. So there's a lot going on in my house. .

Dr. Robin Stern: I also forgot to mention Jessica, that you are a new member of the Women's Faculty Forum at Yale University, so that's exciting as well. So tell us the role that mentors and women have played in your life, including your mom.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, I've been thinking about this when I think of women mentors. The first one that pops into my mind is actually my grad school advisor, Dr. Sandra Russ. Um, of course, my mom is a mentor too. Um, I think my, my mom was, uh, was a stay at home mom. Um, and then after the kids grew up, she was a, um, went, actually, she had been a teacher before she had kids, and she went back to teaching, was a preschool teacher. Um, and when I think about what, you know, some of the major things I, I I gained from her, uh, she's a, a really empathic type. Um, and I think that she's, when she sits with someone, she's able to make them feel like you are the only, you know, you're the only thing that she's focused on, and she has all the time in the world that you need.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, which were qualities that I took with me into my clinical profession and hopefully take with me now as I'm mentoring younger students. Um, and my position at Yale, um, my advisor at grad school was good at that too. Um, I think as someone who has a, has a job or, you know, works while being a mom, um, I wasn't able to get that from my mom. And so I had to look to other sources. Uh, this is something I've been reflecting on a lot, was trying to figure out how to navigate, um, being a mother and having a, and having a job. My grad school mentor actually didn't have kids for her career, so I had kind of these two sides of the spectrum, which were like, you could be a stay at home mom, or you can have a job, but then not have a family. Um, and so I actually had a hard time finding some someone or people who would speak to me about doing both and kind of the pros and cons of that. Um, that was something that I was missing. And so it's something that I try to now share more about, um, with, with younger women coming up.

Dr. Robin Stern: I think it's wonderful and it's a wonderful, um, comment to make or, or a decision to come to, to bring into this podcast, which is on the occasion of Women's History Month, you know, so, uh, women have certainly, things are very different for women now when, um, as we speak here, remembering back when I was young, um, most moms didn't work. My mom had worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard during the Second World War as she was an artist, and she was a drafts person. And, and, uh, so, and then she did, um, murals and department stores. And so I thought of women as having talents, um, in the world. But, um, she had to stop working because she was raising children. And it just wasn't the culture. People sat out on the stupid night, or they sat out on lawn chairs and talked among themselves. Different women would muse about the, uh, um, or maybe not muse, but maybe ruminate about their lives, , and how was it fair? Was it balanced? What could they teach their daughters? How can they tell their daughters go to school and have a career when they were giving up theirs? And so things are very different now as you're raising Eva and, um, you're stepping into motherhood as her mentor and balancing it all. How is that going for you?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I think it's going pretty well. I feel grateful that I have a position where the people that I work for are understanding, um, not even understanding, but celebrate families and are supportive of families. Um, I will say that I picked, you know, I've picked and stayed at a job that has a lot of flexibility, um, to make it work, right? So as an academic, I have the, you know, privilege, the option to leave at three on a day that I wanna leave at three to make it up on Saturday if I want to, you know, make up the hours or right at night. Um, and not everybody has that. And, and I, I've, like I said, picked and stayed in this because it's a little bit easier to make it work. Um, I think I should also just give some credit to my husband who does a lot of things like grocery shopping, and cooking dinner.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, which not everybody has a partner, who will do those things for the who, you know. And so that is a, you know, having a network of support has made a difference too. Um, yeah, and I, I, I just think that I, you know, over the years it's been like, well, could I pick a career that's more, um, high earning? And it's like, for me, it's just never been, the exchange would be that there would be less flexibility in being able to be with my family when I wanna be with my family. And so that's the decision that I kind of have made and it's the right one for me. Um, but like I said, it was hard to find people to talk to about it. And so I'm hoping by being, being more open, other people won't feel like they've got no one that they can, you know, just weigh the pros and cons with.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Do you think that there's something, um, particular special different about, uh, being in academia and, um, like what, what do you feel was, for example, most important for your mentorship in academia? Um, and what would you say to women coming up? What are you saying to young people coming up through academia?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, this is an interesting one. I, one of the, one of the things that I took from my graduate school mentor, Sandy, um, she is a, um, sort of soft spoken, um, like very humble person. Um, and I think that it is, and yet she has really firm boundaries and she does excellent work. Um, but I think that if you just kind of see the way she presents, you might think that she was someone you could take advantage of or someone who hasn't gotten as far as she could because she kind of isn't self-promotion. And, and yet she's got eight books. She's now an Meredith professor. I mean, you know, like every accolade you could want. And, um, you know, travels around the world talking about her expertise. And I learned from her that there's not like one way to be a person in the workforce.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, I think sometimes when you're young, you wanna copy the people who have had a lot of success, which at least my generation, it was a lot of men who were the full professors or who had the books or who had the travel around jobs. And I thought I had to be, uh, you know, speak up more and be louder and be more pro, you know, self, um, promotion, you know, out. Like, and then I found it very comforting that maybe there was another way to be a little bit closer to my personality type and still be successful.

Dr. Robin Stern: I love that. Did you actually talk with her about that? Did, did you ask her questions?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: We did talk about it and we actually, this was, I can't even re imagine like how many years ago there was a panel on women in academia and it was kind of going the other direction. Like, women need to figure out how to be as comfortable, you know, talking about ourselves as other people. And I said like, that hasn't been my experience at all. Like, I think we could just, I think there's another path here where you don't have to Yeah. Like mimic men, , I'm gonna get myself in trouble, but .

Dr. Robin Stern: And what have you heard in response to, to that? Have you socialized that concept? Do you talk about it with your peers?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: A little bit. Yeah. I think this is sort of a spinoff on that. Um, but I think you'll relate to this 'cause my team at the center has a few people who are not bubbly, extroverted types. And I've gotten the feedback that they really appreciate that, um, there, there could be a space for introverts that there could be a space for people who are kind of quiet and settled. And we could still notice and appreciate that they're doing excellent work and a high level of research, um, without them kind of like waving it in our faces. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, that's real. You are bringing up a really important point that the culture around you can support your fabulosity, whatever it is, right? . So how does that happen? Well, how do you, in a leadership position, because you are in a leadership position in, in, uh, in terms of the people you mentor directly and just for the center, how do you bring your wisdom about this to, to the center? So yes, of course, first thing is you're a role model.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Not like, oh, Tom, Jessica, I'm wonderful. , come look at me. You're not, and yet your, your work is excellent. You're brilliant. You speak beautifully in front of any number of audiences and very well thought of. People love you and, um, you're a leader. So aside from all of that, which is terrific, that you're putting yourself out there as, um, somebody who is living the work, what are you saying to people?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, I think that's right. I think I try to model it and people kind of, people follow and see that that could work too. Um, I think that I, I have faith that if you're doing great work, that it's going to be recognized, um, and that there are lots of channels for getting your work out there. And so, um, maybe it's more written material, right? Um, maybe it's that you do love public speaking, um, uh, or maybe not, right? And, and that there's, it's like it will, that kind of science is very incremental. And that, I think if you're kind of too desperate to like, make a big splash or something, you know, sometimes you can actually leave yourself astray. Um, and

Dr. Robin Stern: What do you mean? Can you say more about that?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Well, like, people kind of jump ahead sometimes and, and wanna put something in the, in the, you know, we've, like science fall is a peer review process. Uh, and so it can be frustrating 'cause you have to wait to tell people about the thing you found until after the peers review it. Um, but I've always, I've kind of always stuck to that. Um, and I think it's like patience and faith and knowing that, um, it's gonna make it better. It'll be better in the end, and you will, you will get the acknowledgement for the quality. Um, and that will be like kind of a more sweet reward than maybe the like, kind of quick win, but it was for fluff, for smoke and mirrors or, you know what I mean? Like, we'll, we'll feel, yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: So in your role of mentor, how do you do it? Do you, and how, how were you mentored? Did your mentor have a weekly meeting with you? Like what does it mean to be a mentor? And people are listening, which I hope they are during Women's History month, um, on being a a female mentor. Uh, how do you go about saying to somebody, either I'd like to be your mentor, or is it, it comes naturally with the robe, somebody's working with you, let's meet weekly, let's meet every other week.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, my mentor had a standing weekly meeting with me, and that is the same system that I've followed. I meet with each of my team members weekly. Um, sometimes it's not that long if there's not a lot to do, but we hold that time so that they have it. Um, I'm actually model a lot of stuff off of how my mentor worked. And so the other thing that I do and make known kind of explicitly when I hire people is that the amount of stuff you'll get to do and the amount of exciting fun stuff you'll get to do is all dependent on how much you get done. And so, uh, she used to, my sandy used to do this with us, which was that like, if you were fi you know, if your master's or your dissertation was on track, um, then she'd invite you to come to a talk or she'd invite you to be on an op-ed.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: But if you were not on track, then you were not, then the extra stuff was the first stuff she was gonna pull off of your plate, and she would just keep scaling back what you were doing until it was the one thing that you were really supposed to be getting done. Um, and so I've kind of followed the same thing, which is like, there's a lot of fun stuff that we do at the Center for Emotional Intelligence, but it is the extra stuff after the stuff we have we're supposed to be doing. Um, and I think people kind of know that. It's like, the other thing is that if you're not meeting deadlines, my first question is kind of what's going on. I assume I, I, I co I I have a curiosity and a concern before, uh, sort of assumption that it's a disengagement or a not caring that there's something else going on right in your life, at home, in the office, whatever it might be.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: And so I think, um, which I also modeled off of Sandy, which is like, you know, it's like, are you okay? 'cause this is very unlike you. Um, and let's, let's, you know, I'm not, I'm not upset. I'm more worried, you know? Um, and I think that that's come in handy too, because that's where you find out what's happening for people. And they're whole people. They're not just workers, right? I mean, you know, like they're whole people who have issues happening at their house and issues happening in their family or issues happening with their health. And I think people wanna know that their supervisor or their mentor sees them as a whole person.

Dr. Robin Stern: When you were, uh, younger in the profession and in your, uh, in academia, was there ever a time where you felt dismissed because you were a woman? Um, or because you were not, uh, standing in your ego? Was there a time where you were, uh, worried that, uh, somebody really could take away your power and therefore you started to accommodate and, um, turned into a little bit of an emotional pretzel to show up in a different way? And or did you see that in your peer group?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: , this is probably not the answer you're going for, but I'm gonna, I, no, I can't really think of one partially because I wait.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: ? Yeah, I mean, partially because I tend to not, um, interpret things that happen as, like, my first thought is not that it's because of my identity. I just, I don't know if it's just a defense mechanism I have, but I tend to, sometimes other people will notice it and like, I'm like, oh, I didn't even notice it was 'cause of that. Like, so I don't have a lot of examples because I just don't tend to think uhoh, it's because I'm female. I can think of times that I felt dismissed, but I can't remember a time that I felt dismissed and then I thought, oh, that happened because I am female. Um, so I'm sure it has, and I just didn't notice,

Dr. Robin Stern: Probably a good thing.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: But I also had a lot of female supervisors and then came straight to the center, which is of course a place of self and social awareness. It's like what we do, right? Um, so maybe that's also kind of part of my luck. I will, I can say a couple things that I, that I think, um, my advisor who was from a different generation had said to me that have stuck with me as just so indicative of this generational change. So she does not know how to touch type. She types with two fingers. She has seven books, seven, eight books. She typed them with two fingers, and she wasn't allowed to learn how to touch type because women who could type became secretaries. Um, and there were times where we really needed to get something done, and I would sit down at her computer for her and type because we just needed to finish.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: And she would say, don't let anyone know that you can type that fast. Um, and I was like, okay, . Um, and the other thing that she did, she was briefly, um, Dean of Arts and Sciences, she had to make a rule that women were not allowed to bring baked goods to their defense, to their dissertation defense because she was so sick of the women bringing good baked goods, . Um, and, uh, the, you know, the male candidates not even thinking of doing that or knowing that it was happening probably at all of the defense. Um, and so she just, it was like she put out a prohibition that you could not bring cookies or ,

Dr. Robin Stern: I love it.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, which again, it was like, that was in the eighties, and then now it was like, who, what, you know, it's, it's just crazy to think, but that's how it was. It was like

Dr. Robin Stern: That you had to be on guard for doing things that you just would naturally do with love or caring or just,

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: But it'll become this expectation and this divide that's like, you know, the brownies you bring should have nothing to do with whether you pass your dissertation defense.

Dr. Robin Stern: One would hope. One would hope. So how do you think that the culture, uh, needs to continue to evolve to allow women to step into their power? Those women who were still busy, accommodating, um, maybe victims or targets of gaslighting and no bullying, but, um, uh, I think it's wonderful that you grew up in a way and that you had a mentor such that you were able to step into your power, see her step into hers, model that, and have a different model, as you said, for what it looks like to be in charge and to be powerful and to have a voice in the world. A lot of women don't have that and or aren't exposed in that way. And so they were, uh, still trying to make themselves into, uh, what they, what the world shows them is the way you succeed, which is still largely male, even though we've changed a lot.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I feel like I wanna only really speak from experiences that I've directly had. I think there's prob I this is going to, which therefore is gonna leave out all kinds of women experiences that also needed advice that I don't have. Um, the few things that come to mind for me are really around being a, a, a new mom at work. I think, um, uh, we do a lot of traveling around to schools or we, you know, and holding conferences. And I pretty consistently can't find a place to, um, like pump a breast milk. Um, I've sat in principal's offices where they've just had to lock the door for me. I have used the superintendent's mini fridge. I mean, just like absurd, like right. There's no, our last, the building we were in previously had no space. And I just took, I just, I, I was in enough of a seniority position at that point that I just took over a room on the third floor and declared it for all the other women in the building, who needed it.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: But like, you know, I just, I don't know, I was feeling audacious enough to do that . Um, but otherwise we would've been walking across campus. I mean, it's just silly. Um, and that's one that kind of continues to come up, um, that there's, I think, and I could see a difference even in myself between my first son where I really felt insecure about leaving a meeting for 20 minutes every couple of hours. And, you know, what is my boss? Who's a man gonna think of this? And does it translate to looking like I'm not dedicated or, you know, less interested when really it's just that I have no choice. Um, and then I can see a change from that to my third child where I really felt comfortable with it. And, but I'm in a position where I feel more secure and my job is secure and I've been here a long time.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, and so I find myself like, how can we speed up or kind of skip that process of being worried about it for the younger women in the building? Um, and kind of on the same topic, you know, there's a, there's a lot with having kids. We've had a number of people in the building who have had losses. Um, and I think that for those who feel comfortable speaking about it, it helps the people who are worried whether they can speak about it. Um, but I think that it, you know, otherwise it's like you just sort of look like you're distracted or you're just engaged this week, or you really, you know, drop this ball and drop that ball. And you should be able to say why, you know, what's happening at home and why that's, you know, might be the case for you right now. Um, and it bothers me that people still feel like they can't do that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, why do you think that is?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I dunno. I mean, I think maybe it's like, um, there are topics that we don't talk about or, you know, like it's like things society doesn't talk about. And then for sure you don't talk about it at work. Um, I think that's where it comes from. I mean, I obviously, if someone wants to keep something private, they should keep it pri , keep it private and well, you know, we should be assuming best intentions. But I think that there are people who want to share, would share if we could change the culture that somehow it's not appropriate.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And if other people, or if we could trust that other people who might be uncomfortable just wouldn't be in the room or choose to participate,

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Get over it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman:

Dr. Robin Stern: Or get over, well, that's a big ask. That's big ask. You know, I want to do, uh, speaking of asks, ask you what the difference is for you in the work you do as a mentor between mentoring and coaching, between like telling people about what you need or what they need and coaching and letting them come up with the answers.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I can think of kind of one specific example of something that I, I tend to use, which is that, and I have to give some credit to my colleague Julie McGarry because, uh, she brought this to my attention and now I've, I've stolen it and use it. Um, is speak

Dr. Robin Stern: You love Julie, and that's fine. ,

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Uh, speaking with people, uh, or, or when, you know, in coaching, uh, helping people to think through kind of what are the things that are important to them in, uh, you know, like it's important that I'm working with kids and helping them. It's important that I'm, you know, uh, you know, whatever it might be. You wanna live in a certain place, whatever, you know, there's like big value ones and then there's just like, listen, I need to make this much money here. Right? Um, but kind of having this list and then opening the, the door that not all of it has to be at your job. Um, that maybe your job checks some of the boxes, but not all of the boxes. But that's okay. 'cause you're gonna volunteer at your synagogue on Saturdays or you're going to, you know, run a youth camp over the summer or you're going to, and so like helping, I think sometimes, uh, young people, they want, it's like their job is their whole life. It, it's their whole identity. And then when it doesn't check all the boxes of the things they want, they are either unhappy or they're worried about it, or they're dissatisfied. And, and so I think it's like, it's only part of kind of who you, you know, it, it only has to be part of who you are and it's certainly not your whole value. It's some, it, it's been so obvious, but sometimes it's just really new information to people.

Dr. Robin Stern: So are you suggesting then that mentoring young people includes that conversation or, um, would benefit from that conversation?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I think so, yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: I agree. I think that it, it also, uh, sometimes can allow a young person to take a deep breath, you know, that don't have to get it all from work. There's nothing wrong with you and your job or the place you work if you're not getting every need fulfilled. So I, I really appreciate that you said that. And I think it's a valuable piece of advice for people. Um, also valuable is how, uh, how do you want people to be mentees? Like what do you expect from your mentees?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I appreciate, um, people who are, think of themselves as lifelong learners. So they're, you know, continue to be open to new information. They wanna continue to learn new things, learn new skills, gain new knowledge. Uh, I think that's important. If you kind of decide you're done and you're not doing anything new, you're not gonna grow, you're not gonna stay relevant. Um, it's a lot easier if they already kind of have that drive than if you have to assign it. Um, I think that openness to feedback is helpful. Um, I appreciate, you know, when, when you're gonna give someone feedback or constructive feedback, especially, right? I think that I really appreciate when I don't have to spend hours and hours. 'cause I'm really worried about how it's gonna go. Um, some people, you know, you're just gonna be able to share it with them and they're kind of, kind of absorb, you know, take, take what they wanna absorb it, and other people, it's like, oh God, it's gonna be such a conversation and they're gonna get all flustered and, and like, so how am I gonna do it? And I just appreciate when we don't have to kind of add the, the layer of drama around around it. What

Dr. Robin Stern: Would you need from, um, someone you're mentoring in order for you to know, Hey, I'm open to feedback and you can just be direct with me.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I think it comes from a little bit of like self-assuredness. Um, we have a, we have a kind of a pact on my team that like, I think you're excellent, like, or you wouldn't be here . And so like, let's start from there, right? And then when I put comments in a paper that you've written or provide feedback on something that could have been better, we don't fall all over our each other trying to say like, most of it was really wonderful and I just have one little thing for you. And like, you know, like, we could skip that part because I think that you're wonderful and I think that you're smart and I think that you're fabulous. So we're gonna just go to the part, you know? Uh, and not that we never give each other praise, but that I think especially, and this is kind of a women thing, we tend to do a lot of, like, maybe it's just me, but this sentence might be a little awkward. It's like, just write awkward. It's awkward like this, it's a waste of my time. It's a waste of your time to read the comment that I'm writing, right? Like, rephrase done. Um, so we, we try to start from that place. Um, I think that that allows us to get to the conversations where we grow faster if we don't have to do too much kind of constant shoring up of that. Yeah. You're starting from a baseline of wonderful.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. That's great. That's great. And to all mentees listening who have a supervisor or a mentor or boss like Jessica, remember them . Right. So, uh, if you could be mentored by anyone, any woman in history, any contemporary figure outside of the, your mentor who obviously, um, was amazing and who you adore and got so much from, who would that person be? Or who would the, who would that panel of mentors be? Because I always like to tell people you can, you can have a panel of mentors.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Two people are coming to mind for me. Um, neither are like, well, one is a little, I was gonna say neither are super famous, but, but people will know. But one, one is, so I actually had a mentor in graduate school, uh, Dr. Lisa Damour. She was, before she was

Dr. Robin Stern: Famous, before

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: She had three bestselling books and all the other stuff. Um, she was my mentor when I was learning how to give IQ tests, um, as a psychologist. How

Dr. Robin Stern: Did you get her to be your mentor?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: She was assigned to me . She was, she's adjunct faculty and that, yeah, it was like report to this person's office. Um, and, uh, I think that, um, she's the first person who pops to mind because I would love to, you know, I, I got so much wisdom from her there, and now I get it from afar because I read all of her books and watch all of her podcasts. Um, but that's one person where, uh, it would, she just is like this wealth of information and another kind of very, um, successful and yet presents as mild mannered, calm, you know, like . And so it's someone who I think I can learn a lot from and I like to model that style. Um, the other person that popped into my head is actually my husband's grandmother, the original Eva Hoffman, not my daughter, who's one, um, who was with her sister, the sole survivors of their family from the Holocaust.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, they were sent to New York, or they were sent to London and then to New York on the kinder transport, the rest of their family parish. She took care. She was about 15. She had her five-year-old sister with her. Um, and they've restarted their whole life and family line, um, here. And I met her, no, I either never met her or I met her once, but very briefly when she was already in her nineties. And, uh, I know just from stories that she was brilliant. She was a librarian, um, finished a Sunday crossword by herself, you know, every week. Um, and obviously was resilient and tough as well. Um, and if we could bring her back, I would, I wish I could download from her all of the knowledge that, uh, we didn't get before she passed.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's a beautiful story of Eva Hoffman. I love that. And, uh, and I think it's also, um, a lovely thing to think about. Are there people in your own lives, in, in your own families, not just at work, people are who are famous in, in history or in science that really have taught you a lot and, and given you a lot. I love that idea, um, for people to think about. So what would you say for people listening, uh, who are mentoring young people?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: I would say I would go back to something, what, what I wished I had gotten more of, which is, you know, as much as you're comfortable just being really honest and genuine in what your experiences have been and as they're deciding what they wanna do next, next or what's important to them or whatever that, that they're able to hear from you, you know, how you made the decisions that you made. 'cause they know what decision you made, right? This is what I ran into, which was that every female faculty that I talked to, their decision was made. They had decided to have kids and have them in daycare or have a nanny and be at work. And so of course that was their, that was what they were gonna tell me to do because there's like a, you know, like a, once you've made your decision, there's sort of a bias that you've made the right decision.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: And I wish that there had been more kind of honesty in, well, how much hemming and hawing did you do? And are there days that you regretted or are there, you know, like people kind of don't want to open their own can of worms, I think. And so they're just like, oh no, it's, it's great, you know? And it was like, well, I'd really like to hear from someone who's not sure that it's great, you know? Um, so I think that it, as much as you can be kind of honest and genuine and be willing to, you know, make pros and cons list and, and say that nothing's perfect, I think that would help people who, who think that somehow they're gonna put every puzzle piece down and have it together and

Dr. Robin Stern: And to mentees.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Yeah, I think drawing from my own experience, again, I would say like ask a lot of questions. Um, believe that your mentor cares about you, um, and that they like being a mentor, um, that it's not a burden, it's not a like obligation. It might be their favorite part of their job. Um, I think that came up for me with asking for letters of recommendation or asking for making connections. You think you're bothering them, but it's actually a delight. It's my favorite part.

Dr. Robin Stern: I remember writing a letter of recommendation for you and thinking, I'm so glad you asked me. Thank you. And it was, it really was a pleasure and easy to do. Just really a pleasure. Well, this has really been fun to, to talk with you about women mentoring women. And uh, and I think just before we go, like what are you looking forward to in this next year of your professional life?

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Well, Eva's one and a half, so I'm getting back into more traveling this year. Um, going to some conferences, going to visit more of our schools that work with the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Um, and so, and I turned 40, I turned 40 a couple months ago. And so, um, it kind of feels like a new chapter for me that like, is about me, hasn't I have a 10-year-old, so it's basically a decade that wasn't about me at all, . Um, and so I'm kind of doing a little bit of exploration even now of like, well, what do I want next? What is, what's 40 to 50 gonna look like and what's the main, you know, 30 to 40 was like, grow our family, get established, you know, like figure out where we're gonna live, you know, our forever home. Like all of those, you know, pieces. And it's like they're kind of all, at least from the moment in place. And so it's like I, I I'm trying to not see it as sad that that's over, but that there's this sort of freedom of like, what's the next chunk? And I think that traveling and sharing our science is part of it. Um, I probably need a new hobby. , I'm not sure what it will be yet. . Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Hopefully it'll be fun to figure it out though.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: But yeah, I'm trying to kind of greet it with, uh, excitement going back to kind of being a mom and working one of the things that, and the, and the conversation around sort of honesty. One of the conver, one of the things that I've thought a lot about is that I like working, and I think a lot of women like working, but they say to their kids that they work because their family needs the money. Um, and that, oh, if we didn't need the money, I would, I wouldn't work and I'd be home with you, but, oh, we're dual income. But really they like their jobs think that this is damaging one to your relationship with your spouse because you're acting like they're not providing and therefore you ha you know, but it's also just not honest or sort of role modeling for your kids that like women work 'cause they like it, not just when they have to. Um, but I think there's like all this mom guilt wrapped up in being like, Nope, even if we had all the money in the world, I would still go. Um, but I just wanted to kind of say that if that's how you feel, that's okay too.

Dr. Robin Stern: I think it's a really important point, especially because as role models for our daughters, how can we, um, be complaining about the fact that we have to go to work or saying, well, I only go to work because I have to make money. What kind of messages are we giving our kids? Not just about, uh, not just our daughters, but our sons too, that women work because they need money rather than that, first of all, that we're entitled to the kind of fulfillment that men get on their jobs and, um, we seek it and we enjoy it. So I'm glad you brought that up. So tell people where they can find you. They want to read more about your science and know more about who you are and follow up.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Um, well the first thing that'll, that will come up is, you know, my biography on the Yale School of Medicine site. Um, that's where all of our, uh, my and the team's publications are, are there, and the news stories about the things that we've been doing and the events that we've put on recently. Um, I think that's the most obvious. I am on X or Twitter or whatever it is at, at JD Hoffman. Um, but I don't do, I don't do a lot of social media things, so, uh, yeah, probably the School of Medicine site, the yce.org is our other site, um, and ruler approach.org.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, we look forward to, and I'm sure everybody listening, will look forward to, um, your next science publication and the translation of that, which I know that you're starting to do into popular media and, uh, and you have written. So more of that to come. Thank you very much for joining me today on the Gaslight Effect Podcast as part of Women's History Month.

Dr. Jessica Hoffman: Thank you, Robin. It's been a pleasure.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Petit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.