Podcast Player Episode 065

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really so honored today to have with me Eli Harwood, a licensed therapist, bestselling author, and highly sought after educator, who has more than 17 years experience helping people process relational traumas and develop secure connections with their children. She's on a mission beautiful mission to help make the world a better place, one relationship at, at a time. Amen to that . In addition to her clinical work, Harwood also offers online courses and in-person retreats that I will be recommending to many of the people I work with to help individuals better understand their attachment styles and build stronger bonds. She's also served as a faculty member at the Denver Family Institute, and as the author of the bestselling securely attached and raising securely attached children. Eli has three children, one husband, two cats, and an extraordinary number of plants. . Welcome, Eli. Thank you so much.

Eli Harwood: Thank you so much for having me, Robin. It's so good to be here.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I, um, am really curious about a couple of things in your bio, uh, notably that first of all, that you, well, notably that you have focused on attachment mm-hmm

Eli Harwood: .

Dr. Robin Stern: And, uh, so I'd really like to jump into that quickly. But then something else stood out as I was reading your bio, your stint in Korea for two years.

Eli Harwood: Oh, yes, yes. What

Dr. Robin Stern: Was that about?

Eli Harwood: Well, my family has sort of a, a unique fabric in that my mother grew up in Hong Kong during most of her developmental years, from the time she was six till she was 16. And my husband grew up both in the US and in Germany and in Holland. And so we kind of have a little bit of a global identity in our family. And when we were first married, both my husband and I thought, you know, before we have kids, we really want to adventure into the world and live somewhere else. And so we were kind of, you know, on the internet going, where could we live? Where could we work? You know, how could this happen? And, um, I was probably only a few years into my clinical career, and I, I found a job, um, working for an agency in Korea that served the globally nomadic, expat, diplomatic, you know, community living there. And so we went on a, an, an adventure and lived in Korea for a couple of years. And so now it is near and dear to my heart. It's a, it's a collection of homes that we have in my family, and now that's one of our homes, .

Dr. Robin Stern: And were you working on attachment at that point? Was that your focus even then? Yeah. So tell us how you got into that.

Eli Harwood: Okay. Well, most clinicians, um, if they're being honest with you, can tell you that we come into this career, honestly, right? , you become very fascinated with mental health and relationship dynamics, usually as a result of having some complex experiences in your own life growing up or later on. Um, and for me, you know, my kind of story or my legacy is that I was born into a family where no one had yet been able to fully heal generational trauma. So there was just a lot of hard stuff in my family tree, you know, addiction, abuse, domestic violence, sexual abuse, you know, insecurity had been kind of the theme. People were basically trying to survive, but without all the tools they needed to thrive. So this is, I'm born into this.

Dr. Robin Stern: When you were growing up mm-hmm . Was it that you developed very keen in early observational skills, or were people talking about it? Were they talking about their family histories and how they were feeling

Eli Harwood: It? I had keen observational skills for my early years. Um, and I, you know, what I think is really interesting is the interplay between our families, but also our nature. You know, and I think I by nature am a sensitive person. I think I was going to be that no matter what. Um, but that led me to a particular adaptation. And that adaptation was to scan the room, read the room, figure out what people were feeling, try and adapt in order to regulate the grownups in my life. Um, so up until about age nine, that's what I was doing. But when I was nine, my mom made a very courageous choice. She acknowledged that she was struggling with mental illness, and she checked herself into a psychiatric hospital. And no one in my family had ever gone to counseling or acknowledged anything even remotely around that.

Eli Harwood: Um, and she said, I, I can't keep doing this like this. And as she started to get help, she was able to recognize how much of her mental health struggles were related to her insecure attachment experiences within her family. She wouldn't have used the word attachment at that point. Um, but, you know, so she did begin to articulate some of the struggles that she'd had and let us in. And so I, you know, I had all these feelings in my body and my nervous system about something's wrong, but she did help me piece together, oh, this is what was happening. And even just to piece together for me as a child, uh, to tell me she was depressed, that she had PTSD, you know, it's like, oh, that what those things were right. So a little mix of both.

Dr. Robin Stern: I was that for you to hear that from your mom,

Eli Harwood: You know, it depended on her regulated state. Right? So there were times when she was sharing things and she was really available for what I was feeling about them. And then that felt good. But then there were times where I think she was just trying to figure out how to process the world. And so sometimes it was a little overwhelming. Mm-hmm . I like to tell parents it's really good to be honest with our children about our histories and our lives. So they know that these things are mentionable, so they know they can ask us questions, but we want to do it in a way that highlights for them that it's about their processing of the information, not about our processing of the information. And I would say my mom learned that over time, but of course, you know, when you're first healing, you don't know what to do. ,

Dr. Robin Stern: Of course. And especially when you don't have the background in education about Yes.

Eli Harwood: All these

Dr. Robin Stern: Different concepts and dynamics,

Eli Harwood: You know? Yes. She later went and got her master's in counseling. And so, you know, again, just sort of brought all of this into my world and I, I resisted it a little bit of like, I'm not gonna go do them and do my own thing. But it became very clear to me in my twenties that my gift was in holding space with people and connecting with people. And my passion was in understanding why things were the way they were and helping people to write a new story moving forward in their lives.

Dr. Robin Stern: And your early education was experiencing those things that you needed to make sense out of too. Yes.

Eli Harwood: Is this a part of your story too? You're very intuitive on it.

Dr. Robin Stern: It is actually a part of my story. Yeah. Yeah. Just very quickly, I had an uncle who, um, was an alcoholic mm-hmm . And he would regularly get drunk coming to my house and trying to visit, um, my parents who were just not, coincidentally not there when he was coming over. Mm. And, uh, um, I have a younger brother who, um, hates when I tell this story in this way because, or as uncomfortable, I shouldn't say he hates it. Yeah. But he was terrified of him, and he thinks back and thinks about how abusive he was, I think back. And I think he was my greatest teacher.

Eli Harwood: Mm.

Dr. Robin Stern: I know that's the compassionate view. And in fact, um, there was a lot of pain and anxiety at the time, but as I was sitting with him, he would lock me in a room and, and, uh, tell me these stories. And, and I knew that I wasn't gonna get out until he had said what he needed to say. Mm-hmm . And, and it became Okay. So I became very good at holding space

Eli Harwood: Mm-hmm. And at regulating someone in a deeply disturbed state.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, exactly. So it's not a surprise that I became a psychologist. Right. . Right. The earlier, your earlier point. Right.

Eli Harwood: Yes. You know, and, and that doesn't make, you know, it makes us wounded healers. And I think there's something really beautiful in that to be able to say, ah, I know what it is like to be Yeah. Locked in the dark and unsure how to get out and to adapt. And I also know what it's like to trust my body and my gut and to learn how to get out of situations like that

Dr. Robin Stern: And develop that inner knowing. Yeah. That comes with that kind of tuning in Yes. To what's actually happening, not only inside of you, but with the other person and around you, as you said. Okay. What's happening? Definitely.

Eli Harwood: Yeah, definitely. For me, uh, the attachment piece really came on board in graduate school. So I finally decided, okay, I am gonna go, I'm gonna be a therapist. And I was taking a human development course, and the professor was teaching us about the attachment research. And, you know, those moments where it's like the room gets quiet and you like, this is like monumental. And I started to go, oh my goodness, this makes sense. And I can see how not only this connects to my story, but how much of the way we develop and the way that we relate is connected to how our early caregivers related to us Right. As relational creatures. Um, and from that point on, I just, I became that girl. You know, I was that girl in the garage, like people would be saying things, I would say from an attachment perspective, , you know, and, uh, it really wasn't popular at that time.

Eli Harwood: You know, Dan, Dan Siegel hadn't written his mind sight book. We didn't have quite as much stuff out there, but I just thought, this is it. This is everything. And I just, I just have stayed with that. And it's a, it's the lens I've used with my clients, and it offers so much dignity, you know, it, it looks at, Hey, there's a reason I am the way I am, and there's a reason my parents are the way they are. And there are hopeful paths forward from this as well. It's not an illness model. It doesn't say, well, your parents an evil person, and so you're gonna be an evil person. And so, you know, no, actually there's some deep trauma here and it got passed on in relational patterns. And you can grieve those patterns, address them, and heal to a level where you aren't passing them on to the other people in your life.

Dr. Robin Stern: And it's not a blaming model Yes. An impact model, you know? Mm. Let's look, I love the way

Eli Harwood: You said that.

Dr. Robin Stern: You, you know, but not to blame, to understand.

Eli Harwood: Yes.

Dr. Robin Stern: So what drew you to, um, in your, in your thinking this last week to, uh, bring together attachment and gaslighting?

Eli Harwood: Okay. I'm gonna try not to be too nerdy,

Dr. Robin Stern: But No, be nerdy. I love it. Do it.

Eli Harwood: Okay. Okay. So one, one of the things we've discovered, um, solidly discovered through attachment science and research is that we all have what are called internal models. So the way that our caregivers are relating to us cultivates a model of relationships. Um, and while we have influence from, you know, all sorts of other relationships in our life and experiences, we are primarily most influenced by the people we are close to. So our attachment figures, and when somebody grows up in a household where the internal model is whoever has the most power wins, dominance is success. You, you want to be right? Because there's always someone who's right and someone who's wrong, right? These are all models. You can grow up in a home with a secure model. It's very different than that. And it says, you know, we belong together. There is, there is love in the mess. There is opportunity for growth and learning and repair. Everybody's voice and body matters, right? And, and so you can hear the, the juxtaposition in those two things. So I believe, I believe that all at the root of all violence is a disrupted internal model around control. So the belief that,

Dr. Robin Stern: Was it ever a good model and then it got disrupted, or, um, speaking to the nerdiness? Um,

Eli Harwood: Great question. I, I think that my, I mean, who am I to say, right? But this is my theory, my own pet theory on it, is that you're

Dr. Robin Stern: An authority. That's who you are.

Eli Harwood: Well, sometimes, um, I think, I don't think it was ever an adaptive model in our close attachment relationships. Mm-hmm . I don't, I think, you know, you put us back into our caved dwelling ancestors, I don't think it ever cultivated ongoing, thriving for our species, for a family member to relate dominantly to another family member. I think potentially it, it did work when, when humans were trying to interact with other tribes and other groups that they weren't familiar with, and there was threat. Um, but my, my deepest sense is that it is more about what happens to the human brain in deeply traumatic experiences that we don't know how to process.

Dr. Robin Stern: So does that mean, um, that deeply traumatic experiences that we don't know how to process, does that mean that those experiences were happening before we had language?

Eli Harwood: Mm-hmm. Well, and maybe in our ancestors actually

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm .

Eli Harwood: So it might not even be, I was, I did a talk recently with Dr. Gli Atlas, I don't know if you know her work. She wrote the book Emotional Inheritance. And she talks a lot about how, you know, people will often be struggling with things that are about unresolved traumas in their grandparents, but you can't, you don't always have that information to register it because it hasn't been talked about. It hasn't been passed out.

Dr. Robin Stern: So, can you, can you unpack that kind of intergenerational trauma a bit for, for our listeners? Um, how could I be experiencing something that my grandmother went through?

Eli Harwood: Well, why don't I talk about my own family a little bit? 'cause I think that's always a helpful example. Thank you. Yes. So in my, my mom's father, um, had a deep, profound trauma when he was younger. So his safe person in his life, the person he most relied on was his brother. And in his family home, his mother was estranged from her family. She left a religious institution, which was a very big deal at that time in the world. And his father had a serious rage and alcohol problem. So his brother was his safe zone, and his brother had an accident and died when he was like eight or nine years old. Okay? And so you can, you can see how a young boy who doesn't feel like there's anyone in the world he can feel safe and reliant on and then loses, you know, the one person he felt he could, there's a coping mechanism that has to play out. And for him, it was toughness. He was gonna be tough. And he came to believe that the most important thing is to be tough, to be dominant, to be in charge. That's how he coped with some of his stuff.

Dr. Robin Stern: And you know that, because

Eli Harwood: I know that because of some of the ghost hunting my mom did, um, because she asked questions, you know, she like, what happened here? And where was that brother? And why didn't anyone ever talk about him? And what is this? When I was little, my mom struggled with significant depression as a result of the way her father interacted with her. So she was a highly sensitive kid. She's so smart. My mom's just a brilliant human being. Um, but she had feelings and she had sensitivity, and he would just rage at her, you know, she remembers just being in her room playing. And he'd come in and she'd wet her pants because her, her nervous system thought danger, right?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. She was in trouble and danger and, yeah. Yes.

Eli Harwood: And, and so she adapted a bit differently than he did. So his adaptation was, I'm gonna be in control and I'm gonna be tough, and I'm gonna be in charge. And her adaptation was, um, I'm gonna try and be better. I'm gonna try and please people. And there was this internal sense of, something's wrong with me. Why can't I be normal? Why can't I cope? Why can't I be tough? So when I'm a child, and my mom, you know, is in early motherhood, and my, my dad has an addiction, has never been able to recover from his addiction. So he wasn't an available partner. My mom had no supportive community, and she's drowning in early motherhood, and she's struggling with depression. You know, the, the, the voices in her head were, everyone would be better off without you, you're a terrible mother. You're failing on all of this. Right? And I could feel all of that, but I didn't know or recognize this chain of events that have connected to this in sense of insecurity in my mom. But she's, she's come by them as a result of these generational patterns.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. So fascinating. So first of all, thank you for sharing. So vulnerably and Yeah. And to our listeners, I can imagine that you are imagining your parents or your caretakers, your caregivers, and their parents and parents, and, and it is, it's, it's a very compassionate way to hold the generations before you mm-hmm .

Eli Harwood: Yes. Well, and my mom's mom, who you know, is, um, far less focused on dominance, um, lost both of her parents by the time she was 22, met my grandfather and married him within a span of three months, and wasn't able to give my mom the type of nurture that she needed that might've offset my grandfather's rage. Mm-hmm . But it is interesting because she was safe enough. And I think, man, what would've happened to my mom had she not had her mom? Right. Like, there so, so at

Dr. Robin Stern: One person.

Eli Harwood: Yep. And, and I wouldn't describe the way that my grandma related to my mom as adequate for a secure experience, but it wasn't disorganizing the way her father was. Right. And so there can be protective, like protective factors and risk factors in our caregivers Yeah. And in different moments and seasons even they can change too.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. And I wonder, um, when you talk about her, uh, want to please mm-hmm. Or her developing that kind of coping mechanism, okay, I'm just gonna please everybody mm-hmm . Um, how did that, like, of course we download our parents' experiences and their stories for free, right? Mm-hmm . So how did you download that for yourself mm-hmm

Eli Harwood: . Like

Dr. Robin Stern: How does shut

Eli Harwood: That? How did that, so it's, how did that trauma then leak into my nervous system? Yes, exactly right. Um, I felt,

Dr. Robin Stern: And the coping me mechanism and, and her ability to cope,

Eli Harwood: I, I felt responsible to heal her. I felt responsible to help her. Um, I, I definitely took on that parentified role where, you know, I think there's, there became an internal model for me that said, if I take care of other people, then they'll take care of me. And circling back around to the gaslight effect that I wound up in a very abusive relationship in graduate school, actually, um, despite the fact that I'm reading all of this work and I'm processing it, I was very vulnerable to someone wanting me and needing me in a particular way. And when, when I was being told that things were happening in a different way than my body was feeling that they were happening, it was instinctive for me to try to conv to keep trying to get this other person to see the truth instead of to pause and recognize the abuse that was inherent in his internal models and how that was playing out with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting. So rather than thinking about, well, how do I feel and

Eli Harwood: How do I feel ,

Dr. Robin Stern: How do I feel? And is this okay? You're like, trying to figure it out.

Eli Harwood: I just keep trying to heal somebody else in order to feel secure with them. It's like, if I give you the healing goods, maybe I will finally feel secure with you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Right? So you figured out that that was the way to do it in your mind, right? Mm-hmm . To heal someone mm-hmm . And then you went about the business of trying to do that, right? Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . That, that is interesting because that, that tape then, that that is the way to have a better relationship, to get more control, to have someone listen to you, um, is to heal them. Mm-hmm

Eli Harwood: . And it wasn't, I, I loved using the word familiar when it comes to how we think about the way we bond to people in adulthood. We do tend, I believe, to feel a sense of connection with people who, who have this connection to our early experiences. There's a familiarness, even if it's negative.

Dr. Robin Stern: Sure. Like, I know this, this feels right. This feels the same.

Eli Harwood: Mm-hmm . And it's not conscious. You know, I never, I never would've compared that early childhood experience to this, you know, later relationship until I did some therapy on it. But at the moment, they seemed very different. You know, I wasn't dating someone that was suicidal or who was struggling with depression. And so it didn't match in my intellectual brain. But what was happening in my nervous system was that I was getting caught up in someone else's destructive internal models and trying to change their model in order to feel secure with them. Instead of pausing and looking at my model and going, wait a minute, I have a model that says it's my job to keep helping and keep helping and keep helping despite the fact that a relationship is not healthy for me.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so what were the signs that you paid attention to that helped you get out?

Eli Harwood: Now we go back to the metaphor in your book of looking around, you know, the turbulence is happening, and you're looking around and you're like, should I be scared? Should I not be scared? And you're looking at the flight attendants to see what, how they're feeling. And what really happened for me is I had some really good friends who looked freaked out . So it's maybe a little bit different than the metaphor, but they, they, there was a sense of they were watching me slowly lose my voice, lose my confidence, you know, revolve around this person's anger, or potential anger. Um, and, and a couple of my beautiful friends sat me down, printed out the power and control wheel, and said, this is what we think is happening to you. Wow.

Dr. Robin Stern: How courageous of them. How loving.

Eli Harwood: Oh, so loving. And I remember being so stuck in his web though, at the, that moment where I was like, should I show this to him? Is this, do you think I could, and, you know, maybe this will finally get him to go to therapy, right. And, um, try to

Dr. Robin Stern: Fix him, right?

Eli Harwood: Yes. And, you know, one of my friends very, very solemnly said to me, no, Eli, we will help you leave, but you're going to have to stop going back, basically. And I was like, I don't wanna go back. I actually don't even wanna be with this person. I don't want this. But it, it was like, what a crazy revelation when I'd spent so much time trying to convince this person, no, of course. I love you. No, of course, of course. I wasn't flirting with that person. I was just having a conversation. Literally, they're an 80-year-old woman at the grocery store. Like, why are you upset about this? Like, you know, to, to pause and listen to my own nervous system. And I had to do the same thing around my childhood. I had to grow up enough to recognize like, oh, that, that really did impact me. I really wasn't, okay. No, no. 4-year-old is okay. Comforting their depressed parent in bed. I had to be honest with myself. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm interested in the fact that you invoked nervous system a number of times, and you've talked about body. And so I wonder when you looked back on those memories of being four and, and imagining, um, what that must've been like, whether you were thinking like, of your body and what it must've gone through, were they actual memories from that time? And I mean, I'm, yes. Not a clear question, but tell us about your understanding of what's happening in your body and other people and their bodies when they're listening to someone else's tape and maneuvering around their interactions because of someone else's tape, rather than standing in their own shoes.

Eli Harwood: Well, I think the childhood piece of this is that I, I sh I created a performance that was very effective. So the performance that I created around me was, I don't need anything from anybody. I'm fine. And I, I'm gonna take care of everybody. And that's also gonna be fine. I remember my dad at some point when I was in my twenties or thirties doing work, and I was trying to talk to him about some of this. And he said, but you always knew who you were. You were a you, you came outta the womb, confident and whatever. And I said, dad, that's no, there's no child that, that's true. Like, that's a flag. Right? In that circumstance, in that situation, the fact that I appeared that way was because I was having a survival instinct, right? I was, I was masking. So I think a lot of the work was acknowledging and being curious about what had my body felt.

Eli Harwood: 'cause I had been dissociating from my body in order to try to regulate other bodies. So, you know, when I was in therapy with someone one time, we were working really hard to get at that piece, and I was trying to figure out like, what did I feel? So I, I tried to imagine myself, like kind of like, I don't know, like you see in the movies or something like popping my, my adult's self into my child body, and like looking out from her eyes and what I saw, what was so interesting, it was, there was no one in the room. I felt alone. So even though my, my grownups were around and they were a mess, and there was interactions, the deep sense in my body was, there's no one here to help me. And I cried so hard in that session that I threw up. And I think that was what had existed. That terror that I had, I couldn't tolerate. So I had disconnected from, but it had been there the whole time. And I see this so many times with survivors of abuse, of any kind

Dr. Robin Stern: In that having that memory just like being, um, like the tenderness for that brave little girl you were. Mm-hmm. Just having be in that moment and feel that loneliness and then dissociate from it. 'cause it was too much.

Eli Harwood: Yes. Yeah. There's like a little Eli that I had to learn to love and, you know, to recognize as a feeling being

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Deserving of those feelings entitled to those feelings.

Eli Harwood: Yes. Yes. And it's amazing what happens when you, when you allow yourself to actually acknowledge and release some of those feelings. It's like, it, you know, now, now this little part of me has some parenting from me,

Dr. Robin Stern: Some love

Eli Harwood: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm

Dr. Robin Stern: . And then what happened like after you, so you had this deep knowing and, and connection, and it made you, like the whole experience made you sick to your stomach, and then, and then you left the therapy session.

Eli Harwood: Yeah. You know, and

Dr. Robin Stern: What happened,

Eli Harwood: Okay, this is a funny random detail, but the two, the, what I remember, 'cause this was years and years and years ago. So, but what I remember are two things. I remember my teeth buzzing. I remember being like, I cried so hard. Like, it really literally felt like the nerves in my teeth had been accessed in that crying. Like my body was just like, whoa. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Whole body experience, right? Yes.

Eli Harwood: Yes. And I felt relief

Eli Harwood: Because had, had I been in a scary situation as a child and I had had the privilege of secure caregivers who are well enough to be there for me, I would've cried and they would've comforted me, and we would've talked about it, and it would've gotten released from my nervous system. Instead it had been frozen in my nervous system. So I think there was something about that release, and I had a wonderful caring, nurturing therapist at the time who, you know, she really saw a little Eli and I, I, she, she didn't get thrown off the scent when I'd come in with my very competent sense of self and my, I'm okay. You know, she didn't get thrown off descent, which is so important.

Dr. Robin Stern: But it also sounds like she loved little Eli.

Eli Harwood: Yes, yes. Yeah. Definitely. What

Dr. Robin Stern: A wonderful, beautiful story. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Eli Harwood: Thank you for taking good care of Big Eli and Little Eli in the story. ,

Dr. Robin Stern: She's wonderful.

Eli Harwood: Hmm.

Dr. Robin Stern: Back to though the, um, speaking to the nerd in you mm-hmm . Or the psychologist, and in me having the conversation about gaslighting and attachment, um, what can you tell parents about how to build secure attachments? Mm-hmm . Tell us about your book. Tell us about your work. Mm-hmm . Um, I know it's, uh, your story is the best way for people to access through their own personal stories, but, uh, I'm inviting you to just share a little bit about the how to that mm-hmm . That you've given us such a gift to the world. So tell us No,

Eli Harwood: Thank you. Well, I'm, I feel like I'm, I'm offering a gift to the world that hundreds and hundreds of very smart researchers and people have like, labored over for, you know, 60 plus, 70 plus years. So it doesn't even feel like my gift to give. But, um, I do love giving it its , which is that as relational creatures, we learn to listen to our bodies as a result of someone else listening to our bodies. And when I say listen to our bodies, I don't just mean, you know, oh, do I need to go to the bathroom? Or am I hungry? I mean, those more subtle, nuanced, emotional states that we enter as well. Um, so one of the most powerful gifts we can give our children is the gift of acknowledging and recognizing their internal world, what's happening inside of you. Um, and I see, you know, we live in a culture that can get very focused on control. And so I see a lot of parents, um, getting lost in the process of trying to teach their children certain behaviors and trying to get them into a certain place too early. You know, it's like they're two, they're three, they're five. My, my, my message would be, instead, your job is to help them learn what is happening inside of them. What is happening between you and them, and recognize they'll get there as a result of felt feeling supported by you in that process.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and the between you and them. Mm-hmm . That's something that people don't talk a lot about. Yeah. Even when parents say, well, you know, I'm gonna ask, we're gonna teach children to, and this is part of our work at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, how to check in with themselves. How do you feel? Tune in. But to do that piece in the relationship,

Eli Harwood: That is how we learn. We, we learn in the relationship. I say in my book, the most important lesson we are teaching our children is whether or not they can rely on us to be there for them when they need our support. And that every other lesson our children learn from us, they learn on the foundation or lack of foundation of that primary attachment lesson. So if I'm teaching my child anything, I also want to be going, how is the way I am teaching or the timing of this teaching going to potentially affect their sense of connection to me? And I have to be reading my emotion and their emotion. It's not a simple process. I am gonna try and simplify it for you all. I'm gonna give you four tips.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you.

Eli Harwood: Yes. I love a good tip. But, you know, in general, that's the mindset. Am I cultivating the type of relationship where my child's senses that I am sturdy enough that they can rely on me and soft enough that it will feel good to rely on me. Right? And that is obviously complicated and nuanced depending on who you are, who your child is, what environment you're in. I mean, there's all sorts of tentacles that come from that. But I would say these four things will help you cultivate that dynamic no matter who you are, no matter who your child is. So the first is when your child enters a room. So when they come home from school, when they wake up in the morning, you know, when they've been in their bedroom and they come back in, demonstratively light up.

Dr. Robin Stern: I love that too.

Eli Harwood: Put your phone down, put your arms out, make your eyes. You know, my clients call this my squishy face . That's part of why I'm not, I, I've chosen not to do Botox. No, no judgment on anyone doing Botox. But I, I like, you know, this is my squishy face . And, and let them feel that you experience delight in their presence. And you know, I know a lot of parents who, who do this just around performance. Like, if a child does something, well, they light up and they, they celebrate because it's very behavior motivated. It's like, oh, I want you to continue doing good things, but that doesn't necessarily create trust and bond. Because if you like me when I'm performing well, how do you feel when I'm not? And so we really wanna establish this rhythm. And I, I like to use the metaphor of, of our dogs, you know, no one is ever confused about whether or not their dog wants them home.

Eli Harwood: Right? They're so happy to see us like dog energy and again, nuances and adaptations. You have a highly sensitive kid who gets overstimulated with noises. Please don't use your voice to show delight in really loud ways. Right. But your eyes should twinkle, your, your, your lips should be crinkling. There should be a sense that I feel different now that you are in the room. That's the easiest one. Honestly. I love of all the ones so much. Yeah. And it's magic. It's truly magic. I do this to every kid in my life. You know, my son has a, a bunch of different friends, and there's kids in his class that I can tell don't have a lot of friends. And I'm like, hi, Jonathan. And he looks at me like, no one ever remembers me. And I'm like, I remember you. You know, like it's an insulator in a world that can be cold and cruel to know that there are people out there who find us delightful.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I love that. And I, it reminds me of my daughter. My daughter had studied abroad for a while, and when she came, she was flying home from Israel, or Egypt or mm-hmm . Sometimes Middle East, far away. And she texted me when she landed, she said, now don't start jumping up and down

Eli Harwood: .

Dr. Robin Stern: And I remember thinking, I'm so happy. She knows I'll be jumping up and down .

Eli Harwood: Amen. Well, and she's hit a phase of life where I like to say, you have to become that loyal old dog , you know, because they've turned into cats, you know, so if you, if you, if you jump too much when they're, you know, between the ages of 13 and twenties, 34. Yeah. Whatever they, they, they are like, you're causing a scene. Right. And they might, like, they don't, they might not mind in private, but not want you do it in public. That's fine. Just adapt. You know, I, my, my 10-year-old will be like that a little bit at the bus sometimes. Sometimes he's all about it. And other times he's kind of like, he gives me the cutthroat, like, mom cut it out. And I'm like, okay. I don't take it personally. It's like, not about me. It's

Dr. Robin Stern: Great that he knows that that's your sentiment when you see him. You are so excited. Yeah.

Eli Harwood: Oh, I mean, I have the best kids in the world. I don't know if anyone wants to wager, but I'm pretty sure I do. . Okay. So we're lighting up. Mm-hmm . The second thing that we wanna do is we want to show up. And here's what I mean by that. In these particular moments. So when our kids are tender, they're sad, they're crying, they're overwhelmed, they feel shame. We want to be the type of caregiver who says, I'm here. I see your pain, and I'm with you in it. I'm not bowled over by it. I'm not going to become in that same dysregulated state as you, but I'm also not dismissive of it. I'm going to care about what you feel and be with you as the pain comes up and the pain comes down, as pain always does. And then in the triumphant moments, ugh, it makes a difference when you show up, I dunno if you've ever seen those videos, they go kind of viral every once in a while, and it'll be a kid at like a play or like at a baseball game.

Eli Harwood: And you can, someone's videotaping the kids, scanning the audience for their parent, and they look very concerned and kind of panicked. And then they finally see mom's there, dad's there, and they go and they're just, they're beaming. You know? And it's like showing up matters. It matters as, and it's, it doesn't matter on a perfection level, you know, I'm a working mom, I travel, I speak, I love doing those things. Sometimes I'm not gonna be there for the Thanksgiving parade at my pre kids' preschool. Um, but my husband goes, if I'm not gonna be there, you know, there's someone showing up for them. And if I'm home and I can, I'm showing up for that. And I'm definitely showing up for the big things. You know, the birthdays, the graduations, like the first time they're riding a bike and they finally get the pedals going.

Eli Harwood: Like, do as much as you can show up for those moments. Because when people show up for us, they, they are, there's a sense of I can rely on you, you are there for me. That's what we're looking for. Third, we want to listen up. You know, when, when we take the time to give our children, I like to call it full frontal presence with things they think or feel or desirous of or excited about. I've had to really push myself lately to do this with my son about video games. 'cause that's one of the things he really wants to talk about. And I sometimes would rather poke my eyes out. But I know that if, if I want to cultivate a pattern where he finds me to be a place where he brings his thoughts, brings his voice, shares everything I have to practice that, that has to happen between us. And so I work really hard to go, okay, so then what happens? And then, and then what? And it was a grand royal battle. Oh, wow. And you want that, like, how many people are there? What does that mean? Do you get awards? You know, like offering that sense of I am listening to you and especially,

Dr. Robin Stern: And I'm interested in what you're interested in. I'm interested that you're interested in that.

Eli Harwood: Yes. And your particular thoughts. And listen, when they give you feedback about you. Now, sometimes our kids give us feedback like, you're the worst mom ever. That's not really feedback. Um, it's more those specific things. Um, like, mom, every time you, this is something that all of my kids have said to me, every time you look at my feet, you check my toenails need to be clipped. And they like recoil. And I'm like, I know. It's like this like OCD thing, I think. And just like, wanna make sure no one's got long toenails, but like, it's affecting you. Okay. I can think about how I do that. Let's make a plan for when we cut your toenails and I'll stop scanning your toenails for potential need of cutting. Right. Um, or like if your children are saying like, you're in my space too much, or, oh, like, why do you always do that? Like, you know, stop trying to fix my hair, whatever. Like, listen.

Dr. Robin Stern: And that doesn't stop. So my children are 34, my daughter's 34, my son is 37. And I can so resonate with what you've just said. And the sentence always starts with mom in that total voice. And I so deeply appreciate it every time. What

Eli Harwood: A gift, right? To know what it is our kids actually need from us relationally. And sometimes, you know, they're gonna give us things that we're gonna be like, I'm so sorry, that's hard, but I need to keep doing that because of X, Y, or Z. Mm-hmm

Dr. Robin Stern: . Exactly.

Eli Harwood: But often, you know, one of the things that's like, one of my greatest cues for listening up is my kids will go, are you stressed

Dr. Robin Stern: ? ?

Eli Harwood: Like, no, yes. Give me a minute. I need a time out. Something's going on with me. I need to figure, but they're, they're letting me know. I'm noticing something in, in you. And I, I, it's important. So we're gonna listen up. And then the last one is, we're gonna make up when we mess up, because ain't nobody doing those first three things perfectly 24 7 all of the time. It's not a thing. And I, I did this this morning with my daughter, my, one of my four year olds were getting ready for school. And we started noticing that there were some things in her closet that no longer fit her or her twin sister. And so we had this other little pal, Olivia, and I said, oh, we can give these to Olivia. And then she said, oh mom, we can give her this striped dress.

Eli Harwood: And I was like, a striped dress. I don't know what the striped dress is. And she goes into her closet and she pulls out this shirt, and it's a shirt with a little peplum in it. She's like, this is too small. And I was like, oh, that's not a dress, that's a shirt. And she's like, it's a dress. And I don't know why for the love of Pete, I didn't just let it go, but I just felt like we really need to discuss that there are shirts with frills, and they're called peplum tops, and it's not a dress, and you can still wear it still fits you. Um, and, and we got into this like silly back and forth, and then she's screaming and I'm, I'm thinking, what did I do? And I took about 10 minutes to let her, 'cause she was saying, stay away from me .

Eli Harwood: So I was like, okay, close the door. Gave her a little space. And I finally came back and I just said to her, I'm so sorry, bug that we were arguing about that and that I just kept disagreeing with you. You see that piece of clothing? It's a dress. It's a dress. Like, you know, this doesn't matter, but I'm gonna create that repair. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna send her to school and to the rest of her day, feeling this deep sense of my mom doesn't get what I'm seeing or hear what I'm seeing,

Dr. Robin Stern: And what a great role model you are. ,

Eli Harwood: I'm trying

Dr. Robin Stern: Initiative to, to say I'm sorry.

Eli Harwood: Yeah. Yeah. That you didn't really like that, that didn't feel good to you. You know, and, and I think, you know, she's not gonna live the rest of her life thinking that all peplum tops are dresses. She's four, she's almost five , but she's four. Like, it, it will be fine. It will get resolved. And what's more important is that lesson she's learning from me, which is that I care more about us being connected and cooperative, then I care about being right.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes.

Eli Harwood: Even though I was right. But you know what I'm

Dr. Robin Stern: Saying? So the four lessons are,

Eli Harwood: We're going to light up, show up, listen up, and make up when we mess up.

Dr. Robin Stern: What a beautiful way to wrap up

Eli Harwood: . Well done .

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much. Thank you, Eli. This has been wonderful. Um, I feel you, and I'm just so grateful and honored that you spent this time on the Gaslight Effect podcast. Please tell people where they can find you.

Eli Harwood: Well, I run my mouth on the internet for free on Instagram, Facebook, sometimes on TikTok. Um, and then you can find me on my website@attachmentnerd.com. And I have programs available and different offers, and my books are available wherever you buy books. So, um, securely attached is a workbook to help you kind of process how you grew up and what patterns you developed in your relationships and what secure patterns would look like in your adult relationships. And then raising Securely Attached Kids is a bookie book and it's on Audible, all that stuff. So anyone who's wanting to nerd out on secure attachment, I got you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Eli Harwood: I loved being with you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you everyone for tuning in and spending this hour with, with me and with Eli Harwood, and what a treat. Thank you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.