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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to The Gaslight Effect podcast. Really thrilled to have with me today, Scott. Jeffrey Miller currently serves as an advisor to Frank Covey on their thought leadership strategy. In that role, he hosts the world's largest weekly leadership podcast on leadership with Scott Miller, featuring nearly 400 interviews since its six year broadcast. In addition to that, Scott hosts a a second Franklin Covey sponsored podcast, title C-Suite, conversations with Scott Miller, which features interviews with the top executives around the world. And Scott is obviously a prolific reader since, if you can see his screen in this very brief inset video in set, even though we're mostly audio, um, you'll know that automatically. And he writes prolifically as well. He is the author of a multi-volume series, master Mentors, 30 Transformative Insights From Our Greatest Minds. Scott, I'm delighted to have you with us. Thank you so much for saying yes to being on the Gaslight Effect podcast. And I'm just gonna jump in by asking you what's not on your resume that you most want listeners to know?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Well, I've been married for 15 years. Last time I checked to my wife Stephanie, and we have three sons that are, let's see, 10, 12, and 14. And they try every day to destroy that marriage. But we wake up, have a cup of coffee, kind of get it, you know, taped back together again. And so I'm pretty proud of those, those things. Yeah, so far, so good. So, so far, so continuing, I might say that
Dr. Robin Stern: That's really wonderful. Um, how do you define a healthy workplace? A workplace that's psychologically safe?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Well, wow, isn't that a million dollar question? I think post pandemic, post Black Lives Matter, post all the upheaval of the political turmoil and Me Too, and, and, and, and all the things that helped to make a safer workplace, quite frankly. I think all those things helped to rid companies, mostly of predatory and toxic leaders. People won't tolerate it anymore. People have options, right? People have options. People quit their jobs now, and you ask them, where are they going? They'll say, I don't know. And you say, no, no, you can tell me. They say, no, I don't know, but I'm not staying here. So to answer your question, I think the best way to create a culture that is warm and inviting and empowering and engaging is investing in your leaders. It's, it's reversing the time, age, old process of promoting the highest producing individual contributor and making him or her the leader, right?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: The best sales person is rarely qualified to be the sales leader. The most creative digital designer is rarely qualified to lead the digital division. You've gotta make sure you are investing in growing people who want to lead, who take the delight and the success of those around them that understand the leader's job is to achieve results with and through other people. You have a lot of individual contributors who don't love to do that. So if you are a leader who likes to do that, then you have to also be selfless enough to learn everybody's what I call love language, right? The book, the Five Love Languages, it's got such great application in the workplace, maybe not physical touch, but the other four are phenomenally relative because everyone wants to be led a little bit differently. People wanna be spoken to a little bit differently. Their, their validation currency is different. Their, their, their, their goals, their desires, their legacy, their contribution, their self-esteem, their everything is different. So to answer your question succinctly now, it's to create leaders that understand they may need to lead a little bit differently for every member on their team. That takes a lot of work, a lot of energy, and a lot of care.
Dr. Robin Stern: I, I, I love that. So love languages in the workplace really help to create that psychological safety. And I, I'm wondering, yeah, so one of the things, when I think about gaslighting and how it destroys workplaces, because I do of course think about that quite a bit, it, it destroys, um, people's feeling of not only feeling love, but also of feeling safe. So people wanna be seen and heard, and they wanna feel safe to bring up complaints. They wanna feel safe to join the conversation, to take the risks, to be innovative. All of that is in what I mean when I say psychological safety. And I'm, I'm can see that you agree, and of course, everything you've said and written tells me that you agree. So what are the specific steps besides love, language, getting to know your people, that leaders can take to ensure that people feel like they can take the risk to be creative and to speak their mind?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Well, first, I think it starts with you as the leader, a as the leader. The organization has an imperative to invest in leaders that demonstrate humility, right? For decades, leaders were always the smartest person in the room. They were the genius in the room. No one wants to work for the genius in the room. They wanna work for the genius maker of others. To quote Liz Wiseman, who wrote this seminal book, multipliers, the book is phenomenal. Liz is a dear mentor of mine. So, exercising, humility, having leaders, leaders are the linchpin. I mean, if you wanna create a culture of psychological safety, you have to be terminating or growing and investing in leaders that demonstrate humility. Their job is to do what's right, not be right.
Dr. Robin Stern: How do you see it? Like, what does it look like for a leader to demonstrate humility? Is it in conversation? Is it in what is it, right?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: I think there's a couple of signs. One is how often do they speak versus listen in what order do they speak versus listen? Can they validate someone without agreeing with them? Which I think is a skillset. It's how, how self-regulating are they of their emotions, of their interruptions? Do they ask great big open-ended questions? Is their desire to ignite the genius in people around them? How patient are they? Do they recognize, like I said earlier, that their number one contribution is to achieve work with and through other people. And when that becomes like your dominant mindset, you then exercise maybe an unnatural level of patience. You realize that your legacy is to build capability and capacity in other people, but you have to work in a secure environment. Some great leaders don't work in environments where that can be their big legacy. They're, they're so focused on short-term quarterly results.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: We see that in a lot of public companies. It's kinda the way capitalism works. And so they're kind of inherently set up for failure. What it looks like is having leaders that can take great joy in recruiting and hiring people who are noticeably smarter than they are, who are more mature, who are more patient, who are more creative and don't feel threatened by it, that they realize their job is to be a talent magnet and bring great talent into the company. And that's their key contribution. Not being the most creative, the most strategic or the most of anything other than being a talent magnet. And that's, you know, easy for us to talk about on the phone or on the, on the webcast here, podcast. That takes, that takes self-awareness, it takes vulnerability, it takes humility. It takes a great mentor and coaches to instill in you that your job is to identify and ignite the genius of others.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: That takes a pretty mature person. You know, 10%, 10% of leaders are sociopaths, but 90% aren't. I believe the vast majority of leaders wake up every morning coming to work, not wanting to destroy culture, not wanting to diminish people, not wanting to harm people, not wanting to create a psychologically unsafe environment. But a lot of our cultural systems kick in. A lot of our defense mechanisms, our securities kick in, we feel very threatened. And no one has, for many of us sat down and said, no, Scott, this is your job. Your job is to ignite and to pollinate and magnetize, and to grow people, and to have high courage conversations about people's blind spots in a way that is both uplifting, but clarifying. These are, these are skills that everyone can, 90% of people can learn these skills, 10% can't. That's a pretty big advantage to think that 90% can't,
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I, I really appreciate what you're saying, and, and it just resonates so much, not only with my work, um, on gaslighting, but of course my work at the El Center for Emotional Intelligence, where we know that and have studied and researched through the years, the impact that emotionally intelligent leaders have on the people who work for them. And, um, a lot of what you're describing are skills of emotional intelligence, like self-awareness and self-regulation. And I wonder in your mentorship and in, in your coaching, um, and writing about how to grow a leader, how do you grow someone's self-awareness? And I, I'll tell you why I'm asking that question at this point. One of the things that, um, I hear a lot about as a therapist is when people come in, they, they tell me about, um, how mistreated their being or, uh, the complaints in the organization. And it takes some doing for people to understand the impact that they're having on others, not just the impact that others are having on them. So I'd like you to speak to that. How do you grow that?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: What a beautiful setup. Um, as you mentioned, I spent nearly 25 years in the Franklin Covey company, was mentored by Dr. Covey. For many of those, an enormous honor and privilege. He said, so many wise things, right? Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic. Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic. So to answer your question, I think it's important that every leader model, not just providing, but receiving feedback and how you deal with feedback as a leader, do you immediately deflect it or deny it or dispute it, or do you take a moment and solicit it, and then digest it, and then say, thanks for sharing that. You know, it's a little bit, uh, damaging, but I'm so glad you shared that with me. I'm glad we were able to create this environment where you felt comfortable sharing that with me.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Hey, can I ask you some questions? Like, how, how does that show up in my behavior? Do I seem jealous or insecure? And over my head, I mean, those are words that leaders don't use. Leaders rarely ask their team members for feedback on their leadership style. And then if they've created the culture where it's safe to give it, they don't immediately eviscerate the person, but instead saying, thank you for sharing that. That took some courage. I wanna grow as a leader. Hey, when I do that in the meetings, what do you think is going on with me? I know you're not Robin, you're not a psychologist, but what do you think that takes a really mature leader? Why did I say all that? Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic. As a leader, you have to demonstrate and model that you are secure enough to solicit and take feedback.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Not all feedback is helpful. You have to know sometimes feedback isn't about you. It's about the person giving it to you. You have to be judged, you know, have to have good judgment around that. So modeling is so important. Secondly, I learned something profound from one of your colleagues, Susan David, the psychologist out of Harvard Medical School. She wrote a book called Emotional Agility. And one of the things I learned from Susan David, this remarkable woman, south African by birth and American by, you know, profession and citizenry, is you have to differentiate facts from opinions and emotions and feelings. And so for anybody listening to this that's feeling victimized or feeling like they're being diminished at all, that may also be true. But if you wanna build your self-awareness, you will realize, am I conflating and confusing my emotions and my feelings with facts? Both are important.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Sometimes they are the same. But I think if you wanna grow your, your self-awareness, you have to recognize, you know, when am I being too sensitive? Is this how I'm being received? Rarely does your technique and your intent match. How you present yourself is rarely how others receive you. Like I'm a passionate person right now. Some people are fatigued by my energy and my voice and my stamina. It doesn't resonate with everybody. So if I want to be a little more effective, sometimes Rob and I have to slow down, take a pause, lower my voice, not weigh in on everything, not have every answer be five minutes long. And the best way to do this is to, by building your self-awareness to asking people what's it like to work next to me? What's it like to stand in a trade show booth with me for three days?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: What's it like to be my pickleball partner? What's it like to be my neighbor? What's it like to work on a project with me? What's it like to be married to me? What's it like to, to lead me or be led by me? When you start asking these questions, you check your ego. You refuse to dispute or refute or blame others. You will grow your self-awareness if you are vulnerable enough to really wanna know how you are experienced by other people. 'cause you and I both know there's a huge chasm, chasm, gap valley between how you think you are received and how others really receive you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, yes. There's this, we have this great cartoon where they, um, a little pussycat is looking in the mirror and what, what the pussycat is seeing is a big lion, you know,
Scott Jeffrey Miller: It's the story of my career, right? I see myself as a kind, uplifting, positive, infusing person. And some people will tell you, no, Scott, actually, you can be mean and you can be cutting and you're impatient, and you can be a know-it-all. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, that's not how I wanna show up. Now, of course, that's grounded in my epigenetics. It's grounded in my origin story. It's grounded in lots of things that I need to get control of. But I have such a strong group of people around me that I believe have my best interest at heart. And I, and I summon the courage frequently to ask them, what's it like to host a podcast with me as the guest? And I learn all kinds of things that rock my world weekly. Do me a favor, share that after we're taping Okay. Not on air
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I can tell you that I'm really enjoying it a lot. So, and, and just really, I appreciate your energy and I appreciate that you are aware of your energy. I think it's fantastic. I I have a question for you. Um, when you look back at the milestones and the defining moments that brought you to where you are now, what stands out for you at a time where your leadership showed up or where it didn't, or when you had an opportunity to say, this is the direction I'm moving in.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: You know, I have a, I have a visceral response. As I mentioned. I worked at the Franklin Covey Company for 25 years. This is kind of an unusual longevity for, you know, a new generation. And I was the chief marketing officer for the last 10 years, an executive officer of a global public company. And I left on my own volition, but it was time. They needed a break from me. I needed a break from them. It was time to move on, but I wasn't gonna go be the CMO of a big company somewhere. Those weren't my skills. My skills were navigating the culture of this organization and getting stuff done that the CEO and the board needed. I was a cultural expert, if you will. And so I left and I went out and I wrote eight books, probably six too many, and gave a lot of keynotes and opened up a talent agency. At my heart, I'm a talent agent. I own a literary speaking, a talent agency. But here's, to answer your question,
Dr. Robin Stern: Is that in your bio? Because I didn't even know that.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Yeah, maybe not. It's okay. It's
Dr. Robin Stern: Fine. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: But, but I left the company, stepped down as an executive officer, but I signed a three-year consulting agreement to host their podcast, to still lead their book strategy, to coach the CEO and the, and the board on a variety of things. And that's kind of rare that someone leaves a public company as an officer, but hangs around for a three year consulting agreement that then turned into a five-year agreement. And I still talk to the CEO once a week and the chairman of the board once a week, and the lead out outside director once a month. And I'm very proud of the fact that I had managed my reputation of my brand, that they felt that I hadn't burned any bridges. I didn't trash anyone. I, I didn't, you know, slammed the door in their way out. You know, there were times when I felt like it, and they probably said, don't let it hit you in the, you know what, and, but I have kept these friendships and I attend their funerals, and they attend our son's Catholic confirmations and first communions. And I'm very proud of the way in which I left and what it did for my brand, my friendships, my reputation. They still call me for advice. And I think it's really good advice. The world's a small place, increasingly interconnected. Now, if someone is abusing you, if someone has acted in an illegal or immoral way, you have to set strict boundaries and maybe never go back. That was not my case. I am proud of the way that we both managed our separation. And I think there's some lessons to be learned through that example.
Dr. Robin Stern: I, I love that example. And it speaks to the power of relationships and the power of nurturing those relationships that are positive in your life, and of course, setting boundaries. And I, and I think, um, uh, I'd like to hear more about that from you, that their relationships, from what I, where I sit, relationships are everything.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Well, that's the business we're in, right? I mean, I mean, whether you are selling software or medical supplies or tulips or lingerie, the business you are in is the business of relationships. And by the way, we hear this a lot. It's kind of a cliche, but I'll tell you, Robin, I'm actually not very good at it. I'm a fairly intense person. Hello. I'm a fairly anxious person. Hello. I have a stutter. I have a, I have a quite debilitating speech impediment that I've learned to cover up and kind of, you know, duct tape together. And so I'm naturally not a very patient person. And these are not, you know, great ingredients to being great at relationships. I'm a fairly controlling person, but through my self-awareness, I've learned, you know, what's it like to be in a professional relationship with Scott? And the more I'm self-aware of that, the more I realize, you know what, maybe they need to forgive me.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Maybe I need to forgive them. Maybe there were things and areas which I had not performed well, that, that they could have. You know, maybe they, maybe maybe the CEO offered me a little more grace than I gave him credit for. And so I think it's so valuable without becoming a martyr or a victim or blame everybody else have a healthy sense of self-awareness. What are some things that they may have given me grace around that they didn't tell me and I didn't fully acknowledge? There's always more to the story, including what it's like to be in a relationship with you. This, I think, is every leader's compelling. Um, calling is understand what is the love language of those around you? And how do you calibrate your energy, your enthusiasm, your intellect, your your origin story? I've mentioned that a couple of times. I'm the way I am because of how I was raised, good and bad. Tell
Dr. Robin Stern: Us,
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Right? Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, my mother's parents were violent alcoholics and were always on the run from the creditors. And one of them took their life, but we don't talk about it. My father's dad died when he was 10. His twin brother died of polio 10 years later. Effectively, neither my parents had parents. And so the number one value in my family growing up was stability, not joy, not fun, not happiness, not love. It was stability. And so I have, I have taken that of translation of stability into control. And it's, and it's been a theme of my life and my marriage and my kids and my leadership style. And I have to work consistently on understanding how did my origin story and, uh, and the fears that my parents instilled in me. 'cause it was a coping mechanism for them. I, I forgiven my parents. My parents did a great job. Look at me now,
Dr. Robin Stern: Control, to to provide stability to, to your culture as a leader.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Absolutely. And then maybe it's not what everybody needed. Maybe everybody didn't need stability. Maybe they needed validation. Maybe they needed some flexibility. Maybe they needed to celebrate wins more. And so I've been really on this focus, on this journey of understanding how has my origin story impacted my ability to create safe work environments for people. Now, working for me is very stable. I'm not sure it's always safe. And so as I have matured, I'm realizing how do I sometimes over manage people, over manage systems, rush in and save the day, protect people from things, and that's not always been a great leadership competency. Welcome to Therapy with Dr. Robin
Dr. Robin Stern: You just let me know if it's too much and I'll back off. Got it. All
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Hey, you know what you're doing. I'm watching you. You know exactly what you're doing,
Dr. Robin Stern: So tell us a time when, when it became really tough to be that, um, to be a role model, to be the light. Yeah.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Oh, I, I, I've got it instantly. Um, instantly now no one's listening, right? It's just us in your office, right? It's just us. Okay. So, um, I was raised in central Florida, born and raised in Orlando, Florida, from a dual faith family. My father was a devout Catholic. My mother is alive, and to this day is a developed Methodist. We were raised Catholic, obviously as Catholics go. And so I worked for the Walt Disney Company for four years out of college. And then after four years, they invited me to leave, which is kind of how it happens.
Dr. Robin Stern: Why did you move there? Because
Scott Jeffrey Miller: There's a phenomenal opportunity. First of all, it was Stephen Covey. Hello. Right? And it was the opposite of Orlando for seasons, no humidity, amazing lifestyle. And it was a job
Dr. Robin Stern: So how did that nightmare show up?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Oh, be always being in trouble, talking straight, sharing my opinion, loving to argue, seeking conflict. These are fairly East coast behaviors, right? I love a good argument. And then let's go have a beer. Not only do they not go have a beer, it's the latter day saint area. They don't drink beer, but they don't wanna, you know, they don't wanna be friends with someone who could argue one minute and then go up. There wasn't the culture. There were all kinds of issues that raised on my personality, my energy, my love of a good argument. That's very common on the East coast, but, you know, uncommon, unnatural, uncomfortable in Utah. Yeah, it was a big lesson and patience in the company. Mm-hmm
Dr. Robin Stern: The way you answered that question was so interesting. I, well, what you just said anticipated my question, which was gonna be, okay, so how did you do it? But you answered the question by telling me, or telling us how your leader did it like that they ignited something. How do you did, how do you ignite Scott Miller in this? And I was thinking, okay, so how did you do it yourself, you and you? Are you saying that you, you give a lot of credit to the people who were leading you and developing you?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: I think both sides. I think I had very patient leaders. I think the leaders liked the fact that I was different, but wanted to make sure that I didn't use that strength to become a weakness, right? All of our strengths were overplayed to become liabilities and diminish others and diminish ourselves. So I had great leadership that had a lot of courageous conversations. I was taken to the wood. She a lot meaning walking in the parking lot saying, Scott, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta temper that, you've gotta moderate that. And so I had a lot of patient leaders who believed in me more than sometimes I believed in myself. And I think they would all say that Scott is pretty self-aware, meaning I was often mature enough to say, yeah, they're giving me more grace than I deserve. They're being a more patient than most companies would.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: And so I was not, I was trying never to be a victim and a culture where I didn't fit for 25 years now, I mean, I love these people. I'm so proud. They came to my wedding. We host dinner parties. I, we, we, we worked hard to get along. Fundamentally, our values were similar. Our personalities could not have been more disaligned misaligned. So I think it was two things. My growth in self-awareness and leaders patience to believe in me more than sometimes I deserved or believed in myself in the moment. I, I have enormous gratitude to a string of great leaders that groomed me, believed in me, put me in stretch positions, took me to the woodshed. And, you know, wood sheded me metaphorically. And, you know, walked me outside and had really strong conversations with me about, you know, I must had a boss that said to me, Scott, you're standing at a gas station and you're holding a match. I need you to, that was the president of the company. Can I tell you at three o'clock today, I'm having that man as a guest on my podcast 16 years later.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh my goodness. I just love it.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: But you said to me, Scott, you're standing at a gas, a gas station, and you're holding a match. And he was talking to me about my incessant gossiping and, and, and sharing things that were said in confidence to me from him, and that he couldn't trust me. And it was a seminal day in my career, but it was leaders like that that had the courage to call me out, usually in private, in a high courage conversation that did not diminish my self worth or self-esteem, but talked straight. But I also will tell you, they would say, I, you know, we did that because Scott could take it. Scott was pretty good about, once he understood, he would pivot. It works both ways, right? If you want a great leader to tell you the truth, you have to be able to handle it. And you have to then be able to change your behaviors.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: 'cause no one's gonna give you 10 chances. It works both ways. I think most victims, I think most people who feel abused by their leader, maybe not most, I would pose a question to your audience. If you feel like you're being gaslit, if you feel like you're being diminished, if you feel like you are not being respected, don't tolerate that in them. But also ask yourself, what am I doing, if anything, to create these circumstances? Do I need a new leader? Do I need new skills? Do I need to change something or stop something I'm doing That is, that is, you know, changing the culture. I am no way saying, take responsibility for your leaders' bad actions, but simultaneously ask yourself, am I set up for success? Am I in the right culture, under the right leader in the right company? And am I contributing everything my leader needs from me? Love it. And results and in governance and behaviors and growth and respect for the, for the values of the company. It works both ways.
Dr. Robin Stern: It works both ways. Thank you. I mean, there's so much wisdom and so many takeaways in, in that short p short few minutes that well, in, in the last section. You
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Mean the 37 minutes that I spoke non?
Dr. Robin Stern: No, no, no, I meant yes, all of the 37 minutes. But in that, in that story, in the story of it both being both you and your leader coming together. And I have a question that I, I've been wanting to ask for a few minutes, so I'm just gonna go ahead. Um, I'm thinking about the moms that might be listening to this or who might be listening to, to this episode, and thinking about kids who might feel like they have some kind of, um, something that gets in the way of their being a better performer, a better leader. And uh, you said a couple of times that you had a speech impediment, which by the way, I have not noticed that all. Um, and I, I wanna know how you worked on it and where you got the motivation. Because if you have a speech impediment or Yeah, any kind of, um, like nervous habit or nervous tick or, or, um, something that, that is a, a movement that gets in your way and, and it is, takes away from your appearance or your speaking and um, uh, you have to be aware of it and you have to take steps to do something about it.
Dr. Robin Stern: And you've gotta keep at it. So how did you do all that?
Scott Jeffrey Miller: I'm not sure I've ever shared this publicly, but I feel very comfortable doing so. I was raised in a very stable, healthy middle class family in the seventies and central Florida. My dad worked, my mom stayed home, as I told you, a lot of stability. Uh, I had, uh, I had enormously diminishing ticks. I would grunt, I would groan, I would roll my eyes, I would stretch my neck. I had a lot of self-soothing tics that I hid from a lot of people. Not to mention this debilitating stutter. As you know, some stutters are neurological, psychological, physiological, sociological. Uh, I overcame a mind generally through a lot of speech therapy and speech pathology, braces, Invisalign, speech coaches breathing, slowing down, eliminating words that I cannot say as I told you off air. I'm a gracious reader because one of the coping mechanisms I have to overcome my stutter is I have codified and documented all of the words that I cannot say in public.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: And therefore, I am a gracious reader to build a massive vocabulary so that metaphorically, when I know a stutter word is coming up three sentences down the conversation, and I always give myself some notice, I metaphorically take my car off the highway into a rest stop, pick up a word and come back on. Which is why some words sound a little bit disjointed. 'cause it's a replacement word for a word I cannot say. I will tell you to answer your question. I have built friends around me that I trust to talk to about this, to talk about my stutter, to talk about my anxiety. I don't have debilitating anxiety. I'm just sort of anxious. There's a little bit of a difference. I'm able to function. I'm actually an introvert who masquerades as an extrovert. No one can believe this. But somewhere in my origin story, I decided that successful people were those that were the most charismatic and the most outgoing and the most you name it. Which of course not true, right? Read Susan Kane's work around Quiet. I know Susan,
Dr. Robin Stern: Susan Kane. Totally. I was just thinking you must have had a great session with her. Yes.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Great interview. Because I couldn't relate to a single thing she was saying, at least not publicly, but I am an introvert who masquerades. Yes, as an extrovert. I collapse in the evening as I want quiet bugs my wife. 'cause she's ready to go. Your question was, what advice would you give even moms or parents that are, uh, helping lead their families? Um, I probably had an undiagnosed case of A DHD, let me tell you. It was physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausting for me to wrap the vacuum cleaner cord around the vacuum. So for parents that have children that have any kind of impulsivity or can't delay gratification or a DHD, it was, I want everyone to listen to me. As a 10-year-old, as a 12-year-old, as a 15-year-old, it was nearly impossible for me to wrap that 40 foot cord around the vacuum cleaner. The amount of emotional energy it took to summon the discipline for 12 seconds was herculean for me to take the garbage and walk it 40 yards outside of the garbage can and all the distractions and all the energy I I'm just telling you this is, this is biological chemical.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Neurological parents relax a little, understand what your child might be going through, even if you can't. Right? You can validate someone without agreeing with them. I have found the best parenting skill beyond patience is validation. Identify what your child's superpowers are, help make them up and repeat it over and over and over again. My oldest son, Thatcher, who's named after one of my lifelong heroes, prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, I have convinced him that his superpower is reading a room, like reading the body language, understanding who's up and who's down. And he has some of that. But my son will tell everybody my superpower is reading a room because I had convinced him that it is his self-esteem is off the charts. And it is true. A little embellished. It's true. But I do think parenting is so much about validating what your child is great at, what their unique skill is. I have people, I have had a couple people validate me. And I can tell you Robin, 35 years ago, word for word what that person said about me. And it was enormously validating. And it basically built this, this, this kind of unjustified confidence in me and that I went and I turned it into competence because someone told me I was great at it. I think
Dr. Robin Stern: They share one of those
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Moments. I can thank you for asking. Uh, okay, you asked for this when I was 15 years old, I worked at a bakery in Orlando, Florida, and I was the student body president. Every day after school, I would take my little motor scooter and my khaki pants and my penny loafers and I would drive to this bakery and I would mop the floors in the back for two hours and wash all the bakery pan. And then I graduated and they made me the, the, um, the dishwasher to the front of the house restaurant. I remember I had a stutter. So I was not a front of the house kind of guy. I was a back of the house kind of guy. And then I graduated to be the dishwasher. And then I got a huge promotion and graduated to be the bus, the busboy that walked around the restaurant with the tub, getting the dishes, but didn't have to talk to anybody.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: This is blowing your mind. And then I got a huge promotion and I moved from being the floor washer to the dishwasher to the busboy and got promoted to be the guy who ran the cash register and took people's checks and gave them croissants and coffee. And this was mind blowing because now I had to speak to people. One day a Middle Eastern tourist came in. Duh. 'cause it was Orlando. She happened to be Israeli. I know this 'cause she told me. And she ordered a cup, a chocolate croissant and a cup of coffee. And she asked me for directions to a local hair salon by worst nightmare, right? And I can say 2 45, thank you. Have a good day. I could, I could conjure that up. She asked me for directions to a beauty parlor and I said something like, you know, drive four blocks this way at the college baseball field. Turn right, turn left. I gave her some directions and she turned to me and she said, you have an amazing command of the English language.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: This is going to take you far in life. And she walked out and I'm like, WTF what do you mean I have a great command of the English language? What do you mean it's gonna take me far in life? I can barely talk in public. And look at me now. And I will tell you, I think there is a correlation between obviously speech pathology, some therapy, a lot of reading, a lot of braces, a lot of coaching, but some unknown woman from Israel said two sentences that were super clarifying. And here I am 40 years later and I can repeat them word for word. And I speak in public for a living. Moms, dads leaders, validate your people not for coming to work on time, not for getting dressed, not for brushing their teeth, but find your people's superpower and with great intention, deliberation and authenticity. Name it. And it will change their life.
Dr. Robin Stern: I love that story. You
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Asked for it. Sorry, that was a long one. Thank
Dr. Robin Stern: You for being so generous and sharing that story. And it gave me the chills. It gave me the chills. That's a beautiful story and, and a beautiful way to, to wrap up for today. And I hope there'll be another time that we can speak to each other. 'cause I've completely enjoyed being,
Scott Jeffrey Miller: I'm so embarrassed. I know I talked 90% of the time. I'm well, at least I know I did. See, I'm self-aware
Dr. Robin Stern:
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Well, my wife says it's not hard
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much, Scott. Jeffrey Miller, it is really been an absolute joy to be with you.
Scott Jeffrey Miller: Oh, my honor's mine.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. Thank you everyone, and I'll see you next time.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lenz, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petitt Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCartan and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you. My listeners.
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robin.stern@yale.edu
