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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to the Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm really thrilled today to have with me Marc Polymeropolous, a 26 year, a highly decorated veteran of the CIA. In 2019, marc chose to retire from the CIA, from his work, uh, in counter-terrorism and covert action, and other fascinating ways of understanding what's going on in the world. Um, and, uh, because of the Havana Syndrome you're going to hear about right now. So, mark, please tell us from that beginning why you're here on the Gaslight Effect Podcast.
Marc Polymeropolous: Sure, Robin, and, and thanks. Thanks for, uh, uh, for having me on. You know, it's, I, I would, I would much prefer not to be in, in the public talking about this. Um, you have to remember, I worked for 26 years at CIA, where, you know, our job was in the shadows. Uh, but I had to, I had to go public and I had to come on programs, uh, like this, um, to kind of advocate for myself because of exactly what you talk about, which is medical gaslighting. Um, uh, you know, in, in December of 2017, I traveled to Moscow, Russia. Uh, I had just, you know, ordinary, what I thought would be routine meetings with Russian security officials that, you know, I was, I was staying at the, at the US Embassy, where I was working at the US Embassy. Uh, and one night in the middle of the night, I, I awoke to, uh, to a start, and I started developing incredible headaches, um, awful vertigo.
Marc Polymeropolous: The room was spinning, tinnitus, ringing in my ears. I was physically sick. Uh, and it started a medical journey, which amazingly enough right now has lasted seven years in which I've had a, a, a headache literally every day for seven years. But really, it was a journey in fighting with the CIA's medical staff, even with, with medical professionals outside the CIA, um, because I knew something had happened to me. Uh, but they kept denying that, um, the, they didn't listen to me in terms of my symptoms. Um, they wouldn't, uh, uh, certainly send me to any kind of appropriate care. Um, so ultimately it's a story of kind of my struggle and my, uh, uh, perseverance. Uh, and it's, you know, again, not something I ever wanted to do, but it's something I felt I had to do just to, to get myself better. And of course, now to, to advocate for others.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm
Marc Polymeropolous: Sure. So, I, so again, I went on this 10 day trip. Um, I was a very senior officer at CIA, the equivalent of a three star general. In fact, um, had a, had a fantastic career. I was, you know, very highly thought of as a leader. I've had multiple decorations and intelligence medals. Uh, and so I was again, going to, to to Moscow for area of familiarization. I was taking a new job, overseeing our operations, um, across, you know, 50 countries, you know, from, from Ireland to the eastern, the, the farthest time zones, uh, in Russia. And so one night I wake up with this incredible, uh, uh, uh, headaches and vertigo, and then I, then I returned to the United States, and I immediately went to the CIA medical staff, and I said, something is really wrong with me. Um, uh, I have these, these, this pressure on my head, these terrible headaches. Something happened to me in, in, in Moscow. The vertigo was debilitating. I mean, I'd been in conflict zones. I've been in Iraq and Afghanistan, been shot at many times. This was terrifying to me.
Dr. Robin Stern: What made you think that something happened to you rather than that you had like covid or the flu or something like that?
Marc Polymeropolous: So, you know, I, I, the symptoms didn't get better. And so, you know, you know, sure, I'm traveling overseas. I'd spent my career in the Middle East, I'd had food poisoning before you get sick. These are things that naturally happen to people in different en, you know, uh, or, or environments that their body's not used to. Uh, but when I got back, my symptoms actually were getting worse. I lost my long distance vision. I was forgetting things. And so I, when I went to the CIA doctors, I said, look, this is something really happened to me there. I remember the exact moment it happened, the middle of the night in Moscow in early December of 2017. And, and this was weeks and then months of cons continuing to go to CIA doctors. And or what I said to them was, look, I had heard of something called Havana Syndrome, which was a, a, a medical condition, um, that officers, uh, uh, or, or diplomats from the, uh, who were serving at the US Embassy and Havana, Cuba in 2016, had experienced, and it sounded to me very similar things such as migraines, cognitive issues, problems with balance based on, you know, some of them heard a sound, but the symptoms sounded familiar.
Marc Polymeropolous: And I went there, and the CIA doctors gave me some rudimentary tests, and they said, no, you don't look like this. And it, it was, first it was a little frustrating. And, and, and then they were referred me to some outside doctors. And I started this medical journey on my own of seeing infectious disease specialists, allergists, obviously neurologists. I had seven, seven different MRIs. And I, but I was getting worse. And I kept going back to the CIA doctors, because what I learned was that they were actually sending some of the, the patients from Havana back in 2016 to the University of Pennsylvania for a very, you know, special, um, uh, uh, you know, special, uh, uh, process of care. And I said, just send me there. And for whatever reason, the CI doctors were saying, no. And that's the gaslighting. Um, incredibly frustrating, because again, Robin, I wouldn't be talking to you, to you here today if, if all they had done was send me to a doctor, but they refused to,
Dr. Robin Stern: Like, when they wouldn't, when they wouldn't re send you, what were they saying to you?
Marc Polymeropolous: That's a mystery. So, you know, uh, uh, because it doesn't cost them anything. Um, right. Again, and, and one of the things that was so, you know, so much of it, there's so many parts of this that was, that were, you know, were injuries to me, not only physical, but also kind of emotional from the mental health perspective, because, so I joined the CIA and I was asked by the US government to do some really unusual things, uh, you know, in, in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria. Um, uh, it's a very, uh, uh, uh, high stress, uh, you know, job in which, again, I'm, I'm tasked to carry out activities for the US government that I can't tell anyone about, but you do. So because you actually make this unofficial pact with, with the, with the government, with the agency, that if I get jammed up, something happens to me, they're gonna have my back.
Marc Polymeropolous: Um, and so all of a sudden I was literally getting denied healthcare, and I didn't understand it, especially when there was places that they were sending others to go to. Um, and my condition throughout then 2000, uh, 18, really deteriorated to the point where I couldn't go to work for more than two hours a day. Um, uh, and I was turning 50 in 2019, and that, that was the time where I, I thought I, I actually could, I was eligible to retire, and I had to, which really cut short a really tremendous career, but I couldn't get through the day. Um, you know, the headaches were just, were just so severe. The pressure, the vertigo, I mean, I was, I was an absolute mess, both, both physically, but also it started to have some serious kind of, you know, mental health issues too, is like, you know, you know, how am I gonna get better here? I can't get the healthcare that I need.
Dr. Robin Stern: But how, what were other people around you saying? I mean, do you, did you talk to like family or friends and, and say, I don't know what's going on. And they said, oh, don't worry about it, you'll get better. Or they said, this is crazy. You should be getting medical care. Like, how did the other people in your life, or were there other people in your life given how involved you were with your work, um, how did people respond?
Marc Polymeropolous: So, it's interesting. So, so the answer, yes, of course. You know, I, I certainly talked to my wife, uh, and, and my, my, you know, my children, uh, at the time were in, in high school, um, they knew that I was really struggling. So they were incredible support network for me. But even at work at the CIA, I had senior officers at CIA fighting with the medical staff saying, get mark medical care. I mean, this is a story of such terrible government incompetence from doctors. And that to me is just, you know, is inexcusable. And let me fast forward to when, uh, and, and, we'll, we'll get to it in a moment. But when I eventually went public with this, and I, I did end up getting treatment at Walter Reed, which is a US military hospital, the CIA director, bill Burns and the National Security Advisor of the United States, Jake Sullivan, went to visit my doctors, and my doctors said to them, the year long delay in getting mark healthcare was, was absolutely unacceptable from a medical perspective. And so, really the, when I look back at it, the CIA doctors and the gaslighting that they did, it's inexcusable, uh, uh, to me. And because again, if you're hurt, if, if you're a leader and someone comes to you and says, I don't feel well, uh, you might ask them what's wrong, um, but you don't question them. And you certainly don't say you can't go to a doctor. And that's in essence what the medical staff at CIA did to me, which was, I mean, it's the classic definition of medical gaslighting is right here.
Dr. Robin Stern: It is just so outrageous what happened. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. And, and even if you're not a leader, but especially when you're a leader and you, um, are in your job, is that much more important and, and wide, um, wide ranging, how can they not help you get the help that you need? How, and what, what did they say as you pressed on them? And you would ask them again? Did they tell you there was that you were not, oh, what did they say?
Marc Polymeropolous: So they said, my symptoms didn't look consistent with the other Havana syndrome victims, which was totally wrong. Um, and then they started making charges, uh, again, which, which don't make any sense, because I was the opposite of a disgruntled E employee. And I say this, you know, with, and I'm a very humble person with a lot of that. So I say this with humility. I was a star in the organization. Um, you know, if you come down to my, I invite all of your, you know, uh, uh, you know, your, your listeners come down to my basement here in Vienna, Virginia. I have, you know, everyone has their I love me wall. I have, you know, multiple intelligence medals. I have pictures of me from all over the wall. I was a, i, I was a star in the organization. I wasn't disgruntled yet. The medical staff said that they thought because I was nearing retirement, I was trying to get some kind of disability that I was doing this, some for some financial gain.
Marc Polymeropolous: And it, it was, it was crazy. And I, I use that, that's a, that's a, that's not a great term to use, but it was, it was beyond frustrating. 'cause it just didn't make any sense. Um, and, and again, ultimately when I finally, uh, uh, made the decision, and so, so let me just say, so I retired in, in the summer of 2019, and my, my but my condition was getting worse, and I still had a point of contact at the agency where I was still asking them, uh, to obtain medical care. Now, what happened at the time was some other officers, uh, in Europe, uh, during travels had started experiencing the same conditions. And one of them, who I knew quite well, uh, actually ended up finally getting, uh, uh, after his fight with the, with the agency medical staff, they sent him to Walter Reeds Traumatic Brain Injury Clinic.
Marc Polymeropolous: It's called Niko, the National Intrepid Center of Excellence. And it's a place which ended up saving my life. But, so he finally, so he was the, he was patient zero at, at, at Nyco. Not, not University of Pennsylvania, but this is the US Army's TBI clinic. Um, and so I was asking to go to that over and over again. Yet they still kept refusing. And by the way, this is all in writing. I mean, the, the, the, the, you know, there's a paper trail here, which congressional investigators have. Um, and that's a whole separate issue. Um, but ultimately, I decided in October of 2020 to do something which CIA officers never do is, and I went public with it. So I talked to a journalist named Julia Yaffe, who works for, who, who at the time was writing for GQ for Gentleman's Quarterly. And she wrote this enormous story about me, and it caused, frankly, and it, uh, you know, uh, uh, quite a stir, um, not only Washington, but globally. And it really embarrassed the CIA because I was begging for healthcare. And it was such an embarrassment that literally within 24 hours they had, they reversed course. Uh, and I was admitted to, to Walter Reed, to their, to their TBI clinic, which I went to in January of 2021.
Dr. Robin Stern: I mean, I, I know it doesn't mean very much, but did they apologize?
Marc Polymeropolous: Uh, so the, the, the medical staff, the senior members of the CI's medical team, of course, never apologized. Now, what happened at the time is there was a change in administrations. And so a new CIA director came in, which was Bill Burns, who I actually, I knew from a previous posting. He was one of, he was an ambassador of mine years earlier, and he had called me when he, in his confirmation process, and he said, look, we're gonna, we're gonna get this right. Um, and so, uh, uh, he, nobody apologized to me, but he did change up the entire CIA medical staff. He removed the, the head of medical services at CIA, forced him to retire. And they put some new procedures in place, which made things better. It's still not perfect at all, but it certainly made things better. Because again, it's the, again, it that notion of if, if something is wrong with an, with an, uh, uh, you know, if an employee, you have to get medical care.
Marc Polymeropolous: It's, again, it's one of these issues, Robin, which I can't explain. I mean, how can a medical professional actually turn down care? You even as a, a a as a professional might look at someone and say, you know what? I'm not sure about the diagnosis, but you're not gonna dismiss someone and, and send them away. And, and, you know, and, and even if you think, um, there are other issues involved, you still want to get them care in which they feel better. It seems to me it goes against your oath as a medical professional to do what was what was done to me. And that's why I had so much, you know, it's interesting. I had so much kind of, uh, uh, you know, it's, it's, when I say unresolved, it's sort of resolved. But a lot of issues in terms of feelings of betrayal and anger because of this.
Dr. Robin Stern: Of course, because when you are a medical professional, then it's your job to never give up until you find the answer. And I mean, even, you know, for, there are complicated issues that happen to people and, and overdetermined issues, meaning that it's, it's the environment plus it's what you ate, plus it's your history. But this is pretty simply like neglect, pretty straightforward.
Marc Polymeropolous: It's neglect. And by the way, lemme say very clear. I I, I would say to people, I don't even care what it is, just find something to make me feel better. And so that to me was the, the, the part of the, you know, ethically, which was, which was so suspect. And, uh, uh, and again, when I finally got to Walter Reed for this one month intensive outpatient program where I was there for, you know, eight to 12 hours a day, there's, there's certainly a side of it. And when you, you go through a lot of testing and you see a lot of doctors, um, uh, but there's a mental health side of this too, because I was broken at, at, at that point. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, uh, I ironically, it, it took not psychologists or psychiatrists, which I saw at many, but it was a Marine Corps chaplain who kind of taught me about the notion of forgiveness against those who, who refuse me care be.
Marc Polymeropolous: And he basically said, I'm not telling you to, uh, uh, you know, forgive them for what they, uh, what they, what they did to you. It's more of you have to kind of, you have to, you have to let go of that anger. It's not gonna help at all. Um, and it, that was, that was, you know, uh, so to me it was so kind of revealing, and it helped me so much, um, because I was very angry, you know, how could this have happened? And so, again, it, it kind of made me dedicate myself to becoming an advocate for others who have experienced this within the US government, uh, uh, as well. And that thing has certainly have gotten better. But, um, I tell you, when I, when I was, when I, when I went to Walter Reed for that one month, starting in January of 2021, and they diagnosed me with a traumatic brain injury.
Marc Polymeropolous: I wish I should have had the piece of paper here. I have the diagnosis. Um, uh, that was a, yeah, I, I cried after that. I mean, I went through years of CIA doctors telling me it was nothing. And the, and the, the world's preeminent specialist on traumatic brain injury said, Nope, something happened to you, mark and Moscow, we don't know exactly what it is. Um, uh, you know, but imaging shows it, it's not a preexisting condition, um, all the testing we've done. And so we are going to diagnose you formally with A TBI, which then all of a sudden opens up so many doors in terms of, of, you know, treatment options as well. And so, you know, what a moment and what a credit to, to the staff at Walter Reed, who really kind of saved me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I mean, and yes. And it just underlines or underscores how completely, um, neglectful and outrageous it was that people just refuse to listen to you and get you the care you needed. It's just not, it's totally unacceptable, whether it's the military, the CIA or any place in the world. And I, I just know that listeners are gonna get so much from listening to you because you didn't give up and you did speak out. And, and I, I'll share just briefly about my own, um, there was a family member, I have a family member who has, um, experienced epilepsy and was told that it was psychological,
Marc Polymeropolous: Right?
Dr. Robin Stern: And for three years, as he was falling on the ground, and, um, just suddenly would fall backwards forward, his half his body would be paralyzed, because they had never seen epilepsy present like that. They didn't know what it was. And so they started sending me books and saying, well, of course you don't realize this, but this is psychological. And, um, you are, uh, um, you're just unable to accept it. And I remember the time thinking, no, this is not, this is not, fortunately, when he got the diagnosis, the doctors were, um, they were surprised, and one of them did come and apologize to him. Wow. Yeah. Which made a difference to him. And I, uh, it was really, we wrote about it for the Epilepsy Foundation for a while, because we wanted other people to know, don't give up.
Marc Polymeropolous: You know, my my wife went through this with, with a Lyme diagnosis as well, um, where it, it, it took some, some kind of, uh, uh, you know, doctors who were maybe a little more edgy, um, to correctly diagnose her with Lyme when she even went to Johns Hopkins. And they said, no, and she was really suffering. And then she finally finds some medical professionals who are legitimate, um, who then treated her, and she recovered. And so, you know, it, it, it's interesting because, you know, this is certainly not, as you noted, it's not just related to something like Havana Syndrome. It can be epilepsy, it can be, it can be Lyme disease. But I, I, I need to, I I, I wanna point out something that was that, that in things like this are so important, because you talked about the, the accusation that, you know, this could be a psychogenic effect.
Marc Polymeropolous: Now, psychogenic effects, and forgive me for saying this, 'cause I don't know what I'm talking about. You, I'm sure do much more, but you know, that's, that's real. That, you know, people can suffer from that. But for me, what was annoying about that is, number one, I didn't think about Havana Syndrome when I was out in Moscow. There wasn't some ma mass psychosis. There was. And the other point too is that I was in top, you know, mental and physical condition. And so the idea that something didn't happen to me was outrageous. And let me, let me add one other piece, is that when I look at some of the other victims, one of them from Eastern Europe, um, it was a CIO officer, and it was also her, her child, and they were affected in their apartment. And this is a six month old who was then diagnosed back in the United States by some of these same doctors, the ones that believed us.
Marc Polymeropolous: But, uh, this, this young six month old was diagnosed with a permanent, traumatic brain injury. How does a six month old get, uh, have a psychogenic effect? It just doesn't, again, it's, you know, it, it doesn't make any sense. Last piece on this, and, and again, I, I don't know how, you know, if, if, uh, there's any, any video we can show, but just to the, to the right of here is a painting. Um, I, so I, I, I created this during, again, we talk about some of the treatment I had at Walter Reed, but during, what they have is art therapy. And of course, as you know, art therapy is not an art class. These are trained psychologists,
Marc Polymeropolous: And I, and I called this the gunshot. And, you know, what does that mean? It's, but it's, it's the, it's the, it's the desire I'm, or, you know, and it, it's, it's real. Uh, I wish I was shot. I wish I had some kind of bullet wound in which then people would have believed me. And, and, you know, to me, this, you know, I put it up in my office here because it's, you know, it's so much a re reflection of that struggle. But it's also something where when I finally received that traumatic brain injury diagnosis from Walter Reed, I said, well, that's my gunshot right there. Um, and, uh, because again, it's, it's the idea of people not believing you. Uh, and it was, it was so incredibly frustrating. But again, part of their kind of, their, their treatment program, they have, obviously you can go through and they will, they will help you with kinda the pharmaceutical options in terms of terrible migraine headaches and other cognitive issues. But, you know, for me, the softer side of healing, the therapy part of it, you know, the, it was art therapy, was music therapy. It was deep breathing exercises. It was, I, I mean, 50% of TBI victims developed sleep apnea. So sleep studies, um, nutrition, uh, uh, uh, was, was a, uh, was a, was really important as well. I mean, I, you know, to the point where I, I know what I, I literally can eat and cannot eat each day. I, I need to have, be on an anti-inflammatory diet. Um, so
Dr. Robin Stern: What actually is TBI?
Marc Polymeropolous: It's, it's, it's a traumatic brain injury. It's your, your brain getting dinged by something, um, uh, ultimately. And so it's, it's, you know, TBI and the US military is of course, very much, uh, uh, have pioneered the studies and the treatment of this because of blast injuries from Iraq and Afghanistan. So it, it's when someone gets blown up, you know, your head get, your brain gets rattled around, and it can cause really debilitating injuries. Um, uh, and again, some of this, again, some of the symptoms certainly that, that I've had, uh, as well. So I don't even think it was difficult for the doctors there to diagnose me. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: How did you get TBI and not know that you were getting a TBI? I mean, is it environmental as well? Can that cause TBIs?
Marc Polymeropolous: No, I mean, it's some, it's something where, you know, there, there's an external effect on your brain, on your head. Um, and so, so that, you know, and, and, and so ultimately this is, uh, you know, what they, uh, diagnosed me with. But, um, uh, you know, I think the, the US government has come a long way since those days in 2017 when I was, uh, certainly when they kind of rejected, um, uh, any of my, my complaints on this. And, uh, you know, I, I look at this and, and if you look at kind of the, uh, the history of US government personnel being affected by things, you know, it started Agent Orange in Vietnam, which was this chemical agent. And of course, the Department of Defense denied this forever, that this was an issue, Gulf War syndrome, which was then the exposure to kind of chemical and biological weapons in, in, you know, in 1990 when, when we, uh, went into to, uh, uh, Kuwait, and then of course burn pits.
Marc Polymeropolous: If you watch John Stewart, you know, the comedian, he's been absolutely instrumental in helping veterans who were exposed to burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they're burning really bad chemicals. This, and this Havana syndrome piece, I think is going to be characterized by that. The, the problem is, initially many medical professionals reject things that they don't know about. And so the, you know, the answer is, well, no, this doesn't look, you know, like anything we've seen. But instead of saying, well, okay, that this is really interesting, we have to, we have to do research, we have to, we should. And because it just, there's just a, a, a track record of this. Um, to me, this is such a, it's such a, you know, and again, I removing myself from, again, the, the kind of the, the psychological, the mental health aspects of this, I mean, it's such a lesson.
Marc Polymeropolous: I think that, uh, and as I've talked to doctors when it comes to things like brain injuries, you know, the brain is this thing that people are, they, they, we just don't know much about. And so it's okay to say, I don't know. Instead of saying, no, nothing's wrong with you. Um, when, you know, when I go, when I, when I, you know, tried different treatments for, you know, migraine headaches, which what I am affected by, uh, the doctors, the neurologists are very clear saying, we really don't know why this works, but it might work. So try it. I mean, one of the, one of the things that I was most impressed, again, with Walter Reed is when I went to them with different suggestions, I, they, they did acupuncture, I did all sorts of, uh, things like that. But at one point, I said, you know, what about medical marijuana? Do you have any objection to this? I'm going to the US military about medical marijuana. And they said, you know what? We can't prescribe this to you because we can't. But hey, if it works, have at it. And so that's the, that's the, that's the attitude you want from a doctor.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Well, that's, that's healing. That's a healing that's
Marc Polymeropolous: Heal. Yeah. Right. We want you to feel better. Yes. Yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. So is it that you had some injury that was suddenly activated by perhaps your travel, or like, how do you have a TBI and not if you weren't just that immediately in a blast, like it be something that was lingering in your brain for a while and just act it up?
Marc Polymeropolous: So, no, so, so what the theory is, and it so, so let me just put this into perspective, um, that the Russians, the first, the Soviet Union and then, and then the Russians, um, uh, for years and years have been kind of bombarding the US Embassy in Moscow with microwave radiation, because originally it was designed for signals, intelligence collections. So they, you know, they're trying to, trying to suck up our conversations. It's kind of a very rudimentary way of, of saying they, they wanna be able to listen, but they do this with various technologies. And it, it ended up for years and years causing terrible injuries amongst US diplomats who served in mo in, in Moscow from the Soviet Union, um, multiple cancers developed it over the years. And there's, there's, there is recorded history of this. Um, uh, so the Russians, the Soviets, and the Russians had developed this technology.
Marc Polymeropolous: And, and what it looks like, and there's some really good investigative journalism on this, is that, that, uh, the same type of thing was occurring. Um, again, I was in a hotel room, uh, two blocks from the US Embassy. I was considered an enemy of the, of the Russians. I worked very much against them for many years. Many of the officers who had been afflicted by Havana Syndrome, same thing. They were working against the Russians. So the theory is the Russians had developed some kind of weapon or technology, which they were either doing this on purpose, they knew the effects of it, or they were doing it for signals collection. But ultimately, it was an, it was, it was an active event which caused these TBIs. And, and I, you know, the, the, the doctors at Walter Reed said, absolutely an event, something occurred to you there.
Marc Polymeropolous: So it wasn't based on a preexisting condition. It was, you know, they, and even to the point when I, when I was diagnosed with occipital neural, which is a migraine headache in the back of your head, they said, well, that makes sense because that's where the nerves are closest to the skin. So at, if they were doing something to you, that's where they, that, you know, the effect would've occurred. And so the theory is that there, there, there was some kind of offensive move by the Russians, um, either for signals collection to, to, you know, uh, to try to listen to what we're saying or deliberately because they knew it would hurt us. Um, and the, the, the, you know, in, in what I believe is, and I, when I look at my colleagues at CIA who are affected by this all, we're working against Russia.
Marc Polymeropolous: And so there's a pattern there. Um, there's there, you know, the, the, the intelligence community, you know, looked into this and they say they can't find any evidence. I don't believe them, because I think that that really is disputed, um, from others I know in the intelligence community who have seen some evidence of this. And then some, some, some great investigative journalists including 60 Minutes, the most, you know, the most world renowned investigative journalist entity, and really in, in media history has really been seized upon this. And they have uncovered, um, what they believe is kind of a Russian program to do this. Um, and 60 Minutes is not some kind of, you know, crackpot people with tinfoil hats everywhere. Um, these are very serious, serious journalists. Uh, and so I think that, you know, when it comes to, you know, there's, there's different ways to look at this, and that has to do with what I call attribution, who's doing this to us.
Marc Polymeropolous: And that's something that you, I, I don't have any access anymore in the intelligence community, but I think there, there's a lot of people working on this. And I think ultimately that, you know, it's, it's probably, uh, uh, going to, to show that there was some kind of active program. And why is this important? Well, it's also important in terms of care. So I know that, you know, the US Army research labs are, are, are doing research on this because, and they wanna see if they can replicate, um, uh, uh, you know, some of the symptoms. Uh, because if they can do that, maybe they can, that can then kind of, uh, go into, you know, how to, how to better care for people, uh, involved.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I mean, I, I respect your, um, staying with your own reality for so, uh, and pushing for that diagnosis and pushing and like, unfortunately having to go through a lot of pain before you got it. But I, I, um, just, I guess from where I sit as a psychoanalyst, as a psychologist, like, yes, it's important to find the cause, but regardless of where it came from, the psychological impact of being denied care and being told, more importantly, being to this, the gaslighting pieces being told you didn't need care. Right? That there wasn't really anything going on with you and that they couldn't find. And they, okay, so they did some tests, but they couldn't find anything. And rather than continuing to look,
Marc Polymeropolous: So that
Marc Polymeropolous: I'd be like, great, that's the gunshot again, just give me what happens so I can figure out how the hell to, you know, to, to treat myself. But the one point I, I think that, that I'm, I, you know, I, I'm not proud of a lot of this, uh, just 'cause it's been so difficult. So pride is the wrong word. But, you know, one of my friends did, did say something to me is, I battled publicly for this for so long, um, and going public is that, and I, and I won't use any expletives on your show, but they basically said, you know, the agency effed with the wrong person in me, because I just said, I don't care. I'm gonna fight this as long as I have to fight this for myself. And again, it's, it's even being a little, so, so there's, there's certainly been other victims if Havana syndrome move, have come to me. I had someone call me yesterday in fact, and said, thank you so much. You know, you inspired us to keep going. And I said, I said, you know, that's nice you say that. It's not, but, but I, you know, it's not fair. I don't deserve credit. 'cause I was being selfish. 'cause I was dying there, you know, so, so everything I did in terms of my advocacy, I actually had to do with me. I had no other choice. 'cause I was going down a really bad, bad path.
Dr. Robin Stern: And, and I, I hear you. And yet here you are at a time where you are beyond all of that, well, not all of that, but you're beyond better. Yeah. The worst of the physical stuff. And, um, and you're speaking out and you're, you're giving people inspiration and hope and, um, confidence that when they, when you know something's going on with you, like you just have to keep going until you find out what it is. 'cause I remember, um, with my son that, uh, the doctors later on said, well, we didn't know, and it didn't have the regular presentation. So we just assumed at one point somebody said, it's a movement disorder. Here, take this medicine. So we took the medicine and then it got worse. And then they said, well, it's definitely not that. So it must be because they didn't know. It must be psychological, and you must be having a con old fashioned Freudian conversion disorder, which, and, um, uh, that's unacceptable because you don't know the answer. You think, okay, maybe it's this without looking further to really understand or believe the person believing, the person who's actually experiencing that is it's incumbent on the medical profession.
Marc Polymeropolous: I, I, amen. I
Marc Polymeropolous: Uh, and so, you know, that, you know, interestingly enough, when I went public with that article in GQ three, former CIA directors immediately called the seventh floor at CIA that next day and said, what are we doing here? This is, first of all, this is embarrassing, and get him some care. Uh, and so, um, you know, you know, can, you know, hopefully that can be a, a, a, a lesson to, uh, uh, to, you know, to others. I've been, one of the things, um, that, that you have to kind of also understand is I'm not gonna be able to, to convince everybody. There's still, there's still some people who don't believe me and I can't do anything about that. Um, you know, it just, and that's just one of those, you know, one of those things that, you know, and, and I, I remember one, you know, again, there's been several kind of key events that really motivated me to keep going.
Marc Polymeropolous: And, and one of 'em was, there was a task force at CIA designed to investigate this. And this is a horrible story. What I'm gonna say is, but, you know, uh, but I, I had many allies still inside the building. And then one day on a Friday, this task force was having a happy hour, and they invited every, all the members of the task force. These are people who were trying to figure out what happened to us, but they had been so con they had been convinced nothing was wrong with us. So they, they were all gonna start drinking and acting like Havana Syndrome victims staggering, staggering around, like they had balance issues, and they were mocking us. And, and I was told this, so I immediately, what did I do? Well, what could I have done? I could have done nothing, but instead I called the White House.
Marc Polymeropolous: So, I mean, I literally, I called the National Security Council and through a fit, um, uh, you know, and so again, it's, do, do people ordinarily do this? No. But I had connections there and I was. And so, again, it's, it's the idea of, um, you know, and you have to do things, you know, within obviously legal bounds. And I have a secrecy agreement to CIA, I can't talk about classified information. Um, but if they're going to mess with me on stuff, I'm gonna fight back. Uh, you know, I will do it. Uh, and, and I think that's, that's one thing that I, that to me, when I think about if I'm proud of anything on this, um, uh, it's, it's that, that I, that I never took no for an answer.
Dr. Robin Stern: What was your process of recovery?
Marc Polymeropolous: Ah,
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, how, how did you get better? So you talked about the art therapy and music therapy, um, all of that. Did you have to take medicines? Did you, um, you were there for a month, did you? Okay. Just you tell us. Sure, sure,
Marc Polymeropolous: Sure. So it's, it's a, it's a great question. And so one of the things that they're, they're, they were good about when I got there. They said, look, I know you're gonna wanna leave in a month and be a hundred percent better. That ain't happening. If we, if you walk outta here with 20% better with a game plan, we're good. And that was really important for me to hear, to hear. Now, of course, 20% is still really good. Yes. But I, but I also had expectations that, okay, this is gonna be a journey. They said, this is gonna take a long time, but we're gonna give you tools. The, the big thing they talk about is tools. And so, so first and foremost, yes, there are, there's medicines, there's, you know, uh, things that I tried, especially for my headaches, and it wasn't working. It just, sometimes it doesn't, some people who have terrible migraines don't respond.
Marc Polymeropolous: So they all, then they said, look, there's a lot of other things that we do. Um, there's, there's, you know, kind of innovative ways to use acupuncture, but there's a softer side of healing. And they said to me, said, look, this is gonna sound like it's not gonna do anything. But we have experience with blast victims from Iraq and Afghanistan, people whose heads were, you know, were really rattled who had traumatic brain injuries. So they said, bear with us here. But things like yoga and meditation, deep breathing exercises, again, art therapy, um, uh, music therapy, this kind of, this softer side of healing. And, and, and again, for me, the idea that I had developed sleep apnea, which was a really big deal. And so I, I now use, uh, you know, uh, CPAP. So I, so I'm being treated for that. And so, so ultimately you go through this process and you start finding things that work.
Marc Polymeropolous: Um, and so that's what happened with me. And so, you know, and look, I'm not someone, I mean, I, you know, my wife always laughs at this because she's, after her battle with lime, she's a health food nut. So she would drink kombucha all the time, you know, this fermented tea. And I'd always kind of tease her about this. Now, what do I drink all the time now? You know, kombucha, um, you know, gluten-free, anti-inflammatory diet, being really careful. I cannot have sugars. I gotta be really careful on carbohydrates, what I put into my body. Um, one of the things that, that I had that it's, it's not a surprise, I, I don't, I'm not proud of it, is that, you know, there's, there is an element when you have this chronic pain is what I had of self-medicating. So I was drinking too much.
Marc Polymeropolous: Um, you know, alcohol is not your friend with TBI. So, um, uh, as Walter Reed said is like, you know, those, you know, having a couple glass, and I wasn't an alcoholic, but I was having two or three glasses of scotch every night because, you know what made me feel better? Can't do that. I think that, that, that's massively inflammatory, but you're not getting better. So it's going down a path in which you're actually, you know, you wake up in the morning and I have a process every day. Hope, you know, I'm, I'm getting enough sleep, I hydrate in the morning. What I eat, do I start off at tons of exercise. For me, exercises was, was huge. Um, you know, when I'm feeling terrible, I don't sit in a dark room. I'll get out and take a walk for a couple miles. And so, uh, and, and the great thing about what Walter is like, we don't care.
Marc Polymeropolous: Some people with terrible migraines and vertigo can't leave their room. But if you're saying that this is what makes you feel better, and we don't know why, 'cause the brain is a weird thing, but go do it. And so, so I came up with this kind of program in which I started really, you know, uh, uh, feeling a lot better. Um, you know, I, I'm, so, I, you know, uh, and the, and the last part of it was, you know, at the five-year mark just two years ago, I remember talking to the doctors at Walter Reed, and I said, you know, I'm feeling better now. And I said, well, that makes sense. At the five-year mark, we see some improvement from TBI victims. And I was like, you never told me this. And they said, we can't, uh, Robin, I can't tell you, Hey, don't worry.
Marc Polymeropolous: In five years you're gonna be better. There's gonna be some serious problems with that in terms of self, you know, self harm. Um, but so, but it's a long, slow journey. It's a marathon. And so, you know, to me that's, it's, it's kind of staying. I mean, God, I'd love to go down and have a piece of cake with some nice icing on it. Can't do that. I won't feel well. And so what, whatever condition I've, I I have in terms of, uh, uh, and it has to do everything with kind of inflammation, I just have to be really careful. So I know. Um, and so that's kind of the, the process. Other people I know have had, uh, some luck with medicine, you know, with, with, with, uh, kind of the pharmaceutical option. Um, just didn't work for me. And that's, and again, Walter Reed doesn't care. They're like, great, we'll try something else.
Dr. Robin Stern: But, you know, I think that's wonderful because it, like, it puts such agency in your own hands Yes. That
Marc Polymeropolous: You can Yes, yes. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: And sleep and walk. And you can do that all by yourself no matter where you walk,
Marc Polymeropolous: Because the, so you're controlling the controllables is what I always kind of, and, and guess what, if I decide not to do it, I'm gonna have a crappy day. Um, even, again, these are things in terms of inflammation. I mean, I, I sound like my old Greek grandmother when I say this, but, you know, change, change in weather affects me. And so, and I, and I go to Walter Reed, I said, does this make sense? They said, look, the barometric pressure changes. Yeah, sure. It makes sense. There's something got something went wrong in your head. You got some inflammation there. There's some kind of event there. There's some kind of maybe nerve damage or tissue damage and Sure. So bar, so, so again, I'm not crazy. The weather changes. I feel like crap, my head's killing me. Like, and so, but I know, I'm like, you know what? If I can get through a couple days of this, I'll be all right. Um, so that's kind of my, my journey.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I think that's wonderful that, and thank you for sharing that. And it, um, it's so empowering and I, how, how are you psychologically,
Marc Polymeropolous: Ah, what a great question. And so, so much better because, um, again, 'cause you know, that, that, that Marine Corps chaplain that I, that I saw taught me about forgiveness. Um, uh, it's the idea of I can control things, uh, uh, more in learning, you know, learning those tools, those tools are really important. Um, uh, and of course I'm, I'm, I'm feeling better. And so, uh, uh, that combined with a great kind of support structure with my, my wife and my, my kids. Um, uh, and, and the other part too that I think that, that I, that I wanted to also cover was, you know, there are, you know, you don't have to be alone. So there is a support network that I have of other people who've had, who've been afflicted by this. And we talk to each other a lot. Um, there are times where I don't have the bandwidth to deal with others, I gotta deal with myself. But, but just having, you know, calling, calling someone up and saying, Hey, I'm feeling kind of crappy. You know, just, just having that, that outlet.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and that's wonderful that you give yourself the permission to, to lean on other people, because not everybody, not everyone does. And I really like what you said about forgiveness. 'cause I remember, you know, I, um, very dear friend of mine and colleague Sharon Salzberg, who is a, a guru in the world of mindfulness and meditation, um, wrote quite a bit about forgiveness. And I remember when I first read it years ago, I thought, I, I, I, I get it, but I don't agree with forgiveness all the time. Some things you just can't forgive. And she and I would have long conversations about it. And, and I finally, um, I think the, I came to peace thinking about forgiveness as not giving permission. N not saying that was okay, that you did that, because that's how it felt to me initially to give forgiveness. But rather, it's okay, Robin, for you to let go of that, which is what you said can't be
Marc Polymeropolous: Angry. That's exactly what I said. I, I have to release that anger. Um, now, now I'm not great at this all the time,
Dr. Robin Stern: But have you forgiven yourself that you're not great at all of this yet?
Marc Polymeropolous: Yeah, I mean, uh, uh, yes, because I've come such a long way. Like it was, it was, you know, when I got to Walter Reed, I was a mess. Um, the other, the, I was also, you know, diagnosed with anxiety, uh, be, and that was because the betrayal from, from the agency,
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, also that, that is like a healthy response to what was going on in your
Marc Polymeropolous: Right. Um, uh, and I think that, you know, the, the what, what, I know that I've gotten better because, you know, I have bandwidth issues. So, uh, we'll, we'll have talked for an hour today and, uh, uh, and I'll be tired after this. I'll go take a walk and I'll feel better. Um, but, but sometimes I get frustrated saying, you know, wow, I should be doing more. And then I realize like, wow, I'm actually doing so much better than I was a couple years ago. Like, this is crazy. I'm even able to do all this stuff. And so it's, it's, you also have to have this recognition that you're, you're not gonna be the same, I'm not the same person I was, you know, before, prior to December of 2017. And, and I think that's important, um, to kind of understand that, uh, uh, uh, about yourself.
Marc Polymeropolous: Uh, the, the hardest thing I think though, for, for, for someone like me, you know, I was a member, a pretty elite group at, at CIA and so again, it's very, it's, it's incredibly hard to get into the organization. Um, uh, it's, you're a member of kind of this a a a group of people. And, you know, especially after nine 11, our thought was, you know, we were the ones protecting America. You know, we're the ones standing on the Rampart, um, uh, and all of a sudden you're not part of that anymore. So there's a loss there is that, that, that kind of elite group. And I'm now, I just can't do that stuff anymore. Um, and, you know, uh, they didn't treat me all that, all that great. And so there's, there's, there's some things I have to always kind of work through on that I still love the job.
Marc Polymeropolous: I love that I was, what I did to help protect my fellow Americans, um, and our allies. Um, I'm very proud of it. Uh, uh, so, you know, there's, and, and I, and I, look, I even, I give talks at universities all over the country. Not that nothing to do with Havana Syndrome, but just about working in the national security space. It's very honorable to do something for your country, um, that's doing something greater than yourself. So become a cop or a, you know, firefighter or, or, uh, uh, you know, run for political office, um, uh, go to the state department, go to the FBI, uh, uh, or, or, or to ccia or, or anything like that. But, um, there's a nobility in public service and I still, I still like going and talking to, um, uh, students about that. You know, I was, I, there's, I, I've become friends with a lot of people from the media, um, because of all this advocacy.
Marc Polymeropolous: And, and I remember I did an interview with CNN, and, and at the end of the interview, Kylie Atwood, who's one of their State department correspondents, and she did tears in her eyes and she said, 'cause I told the whole story. And she said, how can you forgive? How can you still talk about the agency in, in, in solid terms? And I would say, because I believe in what they do. Um, I just think I was treated really badly. And you wanna make sure that they never make this same mistake again. And so, you know, there's obviously still stuff I gotta, I gotta work through
Dr. Robin Stern: So that, you know, that's a journey, uh, that's a journey you're on. And, and, um, and it could, it will be the journey of your life to continue to work it through and to continue to find other ways to give and to inspire people. And, and I, um, it's such a privilege to be with you. You've been through hell and back and, and, um, and yet here you are giving to, to the world. Here you are choosing rather than hiding away and just, um, just being mad about it. Um, you're giving other people the opportunity to follow your lead and to follow you as a role model and to not give up on themselves. And I love, I love how you just shared that you are out there in universities inspiring young people to give of themselves for their country. So you're still protecting the country in your, in your, and it's really moving. Please tell, please tell me. Um, and please tell our listening audience where they can find you if they wanna hear more about you, read more about you.
Marc Polymeropolous: So I, I, I am, uh, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, uh, you know, a, a prolific, uh, on, on Twitter or X whatever, it's, it's at m polymer. Um, and I will tweet about everything, whether it's national security, politics, my love of the Boston Red Sox, or I love heavy metal music. I mean, I don't know. So I'm, I I will, it, it is just, it is just kind of my random thoughts. Um, uh, I have a, I I, uh, have kind of a side gig with, uh, as a national security contributor for M-S-N-B-C. So they'll call and ask me about foreign policy stuff and, and the intelligence community. So it's nothing to do with this, but I, I, you know, I sometimes go on the air once or twice a week. Um, I have a podcast, uh, called the Above Average Intelligence Podcast. Again, when we talk about, um, uh, it's a funny, funny name, a little self-deprecating. Love it.
Dr. Robin Stern: I love it.
Marc Polymeropolous: Uh, and so, you know, so I, I'm, I'm busy enough here and there. Um, I wrote a book on leadership, uh, called Clarity in Crisis Leadership Lessons from the,
Dr. Robin Stern: Just forgot to mention that. So where can people find that book?
Marc Polymeropolous: It's on Amazon. Um, uh, clarity and Crisis Leadership Lessons from the CIA Harper Collins published it. I couldn't believe that they actually, uh, uh, agreed to this, but that, that, I did that a couple years ago. And that was actually interesting because e even in the times when I was really suffering, I would, I would write for maybe an hour a day. That's all I could do. And so, um, I, you know, I, I have enough kind of side projects. Um, and the one thing that I'll, I will just say to your, um, you know, to your listeners for sure is, you know, if you, if you, you, you write me a note, um, uh, an email or anything like that, uh, I, I always respond. I will write back. And so it's a, it's mark dot opolis@gmail.com. Um, and so I'm, I'm very accessible sometimes to my detriment because I got a lot of, uh, a lot of questions on, on Havana Syndrome or just foreign policy stuff, or from students who I'm just trying to mentor. The one thing I do is I've, I've been like, my wife always says you, I, I've retired. So, you know, we have a, you know, we have a good retirement system at CIA, but I'm the worst world's worst business person. Um, I'm, I'm always, I'm always agreeing to do stuff for free because Cousin College says, come talk to us. Sure. And she's like, would you please try to get an honorarium or something? So
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that just in the spirit of taking care of yourself, that's a good idea, right? I agree with you
Marc Polymeropolous:
Dr. Robin Stern: But how generous, um, of you to be doing all this for other people and to taking the time while you were still in pain to write your book, and, and to, to taking the time to come on this podcast to tell people, to beware of the gaslighting when they're suffering something. And I really appreciate you. I've really enjoyed being with you, and I will definitely be one of those people emailing you, and I hope you'll write back.
Marc Polymeropolous: Thank you so much. And again, my, my, the, the, the, the message I have for your listeners is be your own advocate. Um, you have some control of, of your situation. Don't, don't take no for an answer.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's a great message to leave. Thank you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lenz, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Petitt Marcus Estevez, and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCartan and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
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robin.stern@yale.edu
