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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really honored today to have with me a, uh, survivor and thriver of narcissistic abuse, therapist, mother, entrepreneur, life coach, advocate, and innovator of a groundbreaking technique in asking therapists to share when they're comfortable and when it's relevant to, uh, their patients. A kind of the, that is very different than the therapies that we were taught when I was in training where you couldn't share anything about yourself. So, Vanessa Reiser, thank you for coming on this, um, on this podcast, and thank you for your incredible work, and I can't wait to hear your journey. Um, and I can't wait to share for you to share your journey with all of our listeners. And I, I'm just gonna stop there. Um, but not before I say that you are releasing a book at the end of October, and please hold it up so we can all see it. There'll be little clips from our, from our podcast here, narcissistic Abuse. And this is also a therapist guide, not only a, a volume that will help people all over understand what narcissistic abuse is and how you can address it, but it is really a gift therapist as well. So thank you so much for doing that and for your work and for, for being here.
Vanessa Reiser: Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Please tell us about your journey.
Vanessa Reiser: Sure. Um, let's see. I grew up in Rockland County, New York, so about 20 minutes north of the city. Um, and raised my son there. Subsequently raised my son there who's now 25. Um, and had a relationship that was confusing, to say the least, um, and left there in 2020, um, as Covid was sort of crashing down upon all of us, um, and ended up trying to piece together that, which I did not understand, even as a clinician at the time, I was a therapist, um, graduated from University of Southern California at the age of 42. So I only got into the field later. Um, and didn't learn too much about personality disorders until I went through it myself. Um, I knew something was wrong. I knew that there was this cycle or rollercoaster ride of ups and downs. Um, but when I did finally flee the relationship was when I really saw the mask fall and the post-separation abuse was so extreme that I thought I needed to shine a light on what was such an insidious form of domestic violence.
Vanessa Reiser: So I decided to run across the state of New York in a wedding dress, 285 miles in 11 days. Um, and it was a healing journey of my own, and I think a lot of silent victims felt empowered by that witnessing of me doing something so well, crazy. And, um, so that was kind of the beginning of, of the journey. And then here we are four years later, um, and I've managed to help so many people understand the characteristics of somebody who, um, is an, is a hazard, quite honestly. I think people without empathy or hazardous. Um, and that's kind of, you know, the sort of, uh, snapshot of what started me in this realm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I, so I'm of course, so curious about how you decided to run across New York State. I mean, did you, did you feel like you had people who were following your journey and, and it would make headlines, therefore more people would be aware of it, or was it, first I just need to run? Um, and, uh, and then it picked up that kind of media attention as you were going. How did it all happen?
Vanessa Reiser: I was on a, um, and it was during Covid, so it was kind of quiet, and I was in my head and I thought, how can I advocate for the victims? And when I went to USC, I studied, um, community organizing. So it was very much a macro lens. This was not, my goal was not to be a therapist. Actually, my goal was to work on a campaign or deal with any of those larger global issues. That was my sort of, you know, thing to be an advocate. And so when this happened, I really wanted to put that kind of role into place. And so I called one of my friends, Bob, who is an ultraman, and I have a lot of these crazy ultra running friends. They do all kinds of stuff. And I said, can I run across the state of New York in a wedding dress?
Vanessa Reiser: And he was like, yeah. So I thought, okay, I can do this. And then I began to plan logistically how this would sort of look, how it would get broken up and who would babysit me along the way, and where we'd sleep and all of this, um, and how to train and, and whatever. But it was really on a run that I came up with the idea. Um, and yes, it was very much about the attention grab of the wedding dress. The wedding dress was the whole point of it. It wasn't just for my own healing. I wanted to make a lot of noise. I wanted people, I wanted it to be a big thing where people would pay attention to it. I mean, people would pass me on the road and what is going on, you know, and then maybe they would be, you know, curious about who is this person running in this attire? But the wedding dress is also a symbol of what the narcissist exploits because they sort of future fake, and they do this dangling of the carrots to kind of string you along and control you. So it really was symbolic. Um, but yeah, it was certainly, it was an attention grab for sure.
Dr. Robin Stern: So I, I will ask you, um, again at the end, but I'd love for you to, to upfront the rest of the conversation with what is narcissistic abuse?
Vanessa Reiser: So narcissistic abuse is where you are dealing with somebody who has a ton of characteristics that are toxic. All of them are used by the narcissist, the sociopath, or the psychopath to confuse and control you to get attention from you and to manipulate you. Um, so I would say the top three characteristics would be no empathy. This is ground zero for people who have disordered personalities like these. Um, they are manipulative, um, and they are all addicts. Not all addicts are narcissists, but all narcissists are addicts. They're addicted to attention. And the dopamine kick that they get from that, they don't feel much of anything. So everything is to sort of feel something. So it's, you know, drugs, shopping, cheeseburgers, sex, whatever they can do to sort of get, um, some kind of a feeling. And, and attention is one of the things that they get a lot of, um, feeling from. So those would be the top three. But most of the time when clients come into my practice, they have a very long story. So it's usually a recipe of more like 30 characteristics, but those would be like the top three.
Dr. Robin Stern: And when you say attention, do you mean, um, loving, adoring attention or any kind of attention is fighting in, in a relationship attention?
Vanessa Reiser: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: So was with me, and you're paying attention to me in one way or another, and we're connecting. I get my goodies right.
Vanessa Reiser: Yes, absolutely. It, it is good or bad attention. In fact, I remember in the relationship I was in, my partner was particularly antagonistic as it related to arguments, and I'm pretty sure he was getting, uh, sexually aroused from those arguments because he would tell me that he wasn't. And that was kind of an indicator that he was
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, you know, it's interesting to hear the beginning of your story because as you may know, if you've listened to my podcast or read anything about me that I, uh, I was married to a gaslight and, um, I was writing about gaslighting. I was taking notes on gaslighting in my practice at the time that, uh, uh, my good guy Gaslight was telling me that I didn't understand the way time worked, and I was too uptight. And the problem was me. And it wasn't that he was late all the time. It was that, um, that I didn't know how to think about time in an adult way. And even though I was a therapist, I'm a therapist and an expert in taking care of yourself, um, going after people who are healthy, uh, to, to be with those kinds of people, looking for people with empathy and compassion.
Dr. Robin Stern: I felt prey to that kind of manipulation because, because of my empathy, because I was, I could put myself in someone else's shoes. And, uh, and I got stuck there for minutes and more minutes and more minutes. And so I really, it, it drove my, um, my desire to publish as quickly as I could in those days, because if it were was happening to me, and I'm treating people who are struggling with gaslighting relationships and narcissistic abuse, many of those relationships included both. Um, and I'm a therapist. What about people out there? How are they getting their information? How can they get help? So I just wanted to share that, uh, with you and wonder whether you're not, um, you would be willing to share. Did you have that going on for yourself? You know, wait a minute. Like, how could this be happening to me? I know better.
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. I think at first, before I realized what it was, I felt a lot of shame around having stayed in the relationship for as long as I did. And I would make excuses for the bad behavior. But at the time, I didn't know what it was. It was only after I left that I discovered. Um, and then I still had a lot of shame. But what I did was pretty quickly, I un I was able to unhand any responsibility of my own, because I knew that I went into that authentically and I was trying to have a healthy relationship. And so once I figured out that as a therapist, it was my obligation and my duty to warn, um, that became what I focused on the most was, you know, to sort of shine a light on this. And I remember at one point, um, going through the judicial system, the family court system with him, which was horrendous, and so many of my clients endure. Um, I remember actually saying to my son, who was sort of begging me to cut it out that I couldn't, that I had to do this for all of the silent victims. Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And so do you see in your practice, and did you experience in your relationship gaslighting?
Vanessa Reiser: Yes, absolutely. There was a ton of word salad. Um, and as a New Yorker, my greatest sort of analogy or metaphor was, I would often say to him, like, I'm on Houseton Street, stop taking me down avenues A, B, C, and D, because he would deflect and bring me down different things. And I became so confused, and it was crazy making it, at one point I started to stutter. I couldn't process the lies. Um, and it was very confusing for me. Um, so over time, I began to stutter and, and sort of not think clearly. Um, and I think what I describe to my clients now is that it sort of is a brain injury of sorts. I think the brain seeks truth and it seeks patterns, and it seeks different things that the, the, the narcissist really, um, corrupts. And that was something that I remember on handing over time.
Vanessa Reiser: It was a process. It takes quite a while to sort of get your legs again and get stable around what is fact and fiction. Um, and I think it's important for people who are co-parenting with a narcissist to instill in their children that exact thing. The difference between fact and fiction is so important because the narcissist will corrupt their children's minds and gaslight their children and confuse their children. So a lot of the harm reduction, I think my clients do, is to instill in their children, like, this is untrue. This is what the truth is, and this is what's not. There are no alternative facts. There's facts, and then there's not facts. So that was kind of important for me. I knew that I wasn't a liar, and that was my saving grace. I thought, I am, I'm not the narcissist only because of that.
Vanessa Reiser: 'cause for a while I was confused actually when I left, because you become so codependent and enmeshed, um, that I was confused about that even I couldn't sort of find any legs. I was very, very confused entirely. Um, but I knew that I was authentic. I knew that, um, I was really honest to a fault. It was kind of like one of those things that I just knew about myself and I think others would confirm. Um, but yeah, gaslighting, um, comes in in many forms. It's not just, you know, the sort of quintessential old school version of it. I think the word salad, circular conversations, deflection, projection. Anytime you're in a conversation and it feels confusing, um, and you feel like you are, um, going crazy, that could be anything like that could be gaslighting.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can you talk about the other behaviors that, a narcissist that you could see? What are some of the red flags? You talked about the, um, lack of empathy and, uh, characteristics of a gaslight of a narcissistic abuser, but what does it look like in your relationship?
Vanessa Reiser: A huge red flag would be passive aggression. And we see this with more covert version. Um, somebody who's an overt malignant narcissist, you know, might be physically abusive, but the more covert are kind of passive aggressive. So they're giving you digs, um, in nuance, in innuendo, in inference, in, uh, sarcasm and snarkiness, sort of underhanded jabs of devaluing you. It's like death by a million cuts. You're kind of getting, you know, um, these jabs through passive aggression. So somebody who's not a good communicator and uses passive aggression as almost their dialogue is a huge red flag. I mean, glaring neon red flag. Um, and I see on the dating apps a lot as a single woman, people will say, oh, I'm fluent in sarcasm. I'm like, swipe left. See you later. I need somebody who can communicate
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. A little bit more about love bombing for people who have not heard that term before,
Vanessa Reiser: Love bombing is not just gifts, um, of, you know, concert tickets and jewels and flowers and things. Love bombing is lots of compliments. Um, even just showing up where you are to sort of give you that surprise morning hug. Or it could be coffee in the morning. It could be notes, love notes. The difference between love bombing and somebody just being kind and courting you in the beginning of the relationship is really not, um, indicated until the devaluing starts. So love bombing n it, it never operates alone. It always has the devaluing phase. Um, 'cause if it operated alone, then it would just be someone being kind. Um, it has to work in, um, conjunction with devaluing, and that's when you see it kind of more in the rear view mirror, unfortunately. Um, but you know, over the top gestures, like very, very, very long text messages, you are my soulmate, you know, all of this stuff very early on, um, is an indicator of love bombing.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. Thank you. Thank you for that. Can you talk a little bit about, um, how you decided to, to leave?
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. There was a, a day where I was asked to become intimate for the fourth time, and I thought, this is insane. There was like a hole in the bucket. There was no satiating, this individual, and it seemed to be that way as it related to most things, almost like totally gluttonous. And I just thought, this is absurd. I have to get outta here. And it was very much the cycle of the love bombing, devaluing, discard thing. So it goes around and around, you have the makeup session, then the tension building, and then the fallout. And it was this cycle that constantly was, um, moving, and it was probably every 14 days was a big fallout. And I began to keep track of the pattern of that, and I just thought I couldn't do it anymore. It was so exhausting to, you know, have to deal with the stress of that. It was like walking on eggshells and confusion, and I just, I felt myself like slipping away. I really didn't, I couldn't recognize myself anymore. I had given up everything. Um, and I think I was exhausted.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. You know, when I, when I talk to people who have been in gaslighting relationships, and of course many of them are with narcissists, but some are not. Um, and they, uh, they talk about feeling like it's soul destroying at the end if they stay too long or stay as long as they did in some cases, and that they can't, many can't remember the last time they experienced joy and completely exhausted. And, and, um, uh, I'd like to ask about the shame you talked about earlier on in this episode. Um, because I think that it, it's so powerful and it's, uh, and also exhausting and consuming. And I, I know that people who have experienced gas lighting and stay in relationships, one of the things that keeps them in the relationship is that they're too ashamed to talk about it. So they, you start to isolate and you're not getting the feedback that you might, that might have helped you free yourself earlier, because you can't even believe you're in this relationship and you feel so ashamed. And, and I wonder if you could share your experience.
Vanessa Reiser: I remember being in the relationship, and there were times where I would continue to endure whatever, you know, horror, I was enduring, and I remember it almost physically washing over my body. I actually remember feeling like, almost like I, not to sound sort of dramatic, but like, almost like I had no skin. I felt very kind of like embarrassed of myself because I really considered myself to be sort of a badass and a strong woman, and like tough, broad kind of thing. And I was really tough tolerating, um, just way more than I ever thought. And it seemed as if I would move that, you know, to endure even more and more and more over time. And also, I don't think my friends wanted to hear about it too much. So it became very isolating after a while. They just sort of were like, you know, not maybe willing to listen or maybe I didn't wanna tell them because I thought they didn't wanna hear it again, or something like that.
Vanessa Reiser: So I did become increasingly more shameful. And I think a lot of people who are dealing with this are dealing with high levels of shame. Um, and it's terrible because it's not your fault that you met someone like this. I, most of my clients are really, really, I would say all of my clients are really, really tremendous people that just got caught up in this environment. It's no different than being in a cult. People don't go into a cult like, oh, I wanna get into a cult. You know, like, and, and they have to live with that shame of having extricated themselves from a cult. The idea of being in a cult is shameful in our society. It's like, oh, you know, you were in a cult. Um, and I was, and we were. And, and that's, you know, something that I don't feel shame around now.
Vanessa Reiser: Um, and I, I insist that my clients unhand that because it's not your fault. You didn't know. The narcissist doesn't have a type. They are just casting out lines all the time. It's just, we didn't know what, we didn't know what we didn't know. And so how can you blame yourself? But yeah, I do remember at the time feeling embarrassed that I was un handing myself, you know, letting myself go, letting that strong person go and becoming something different. And I did, I became kind of an ugly version of myself. I was really bedazzled with jewels and fancy things. None of this stuff ever meant anything to me. I didn't care about cars and bags and shoes, but I sort of lost myself in that. Um, and it was, it was a, there was a lot of shame in that.
Dr. Robin Stern: I really appreciate your sharing so vulnerably. Thank you. I know that it'll be very meaningful to people listening and people caught up in these relationships or trying to unpack very difficult and traumatic relationships that they have escaped from. I wonder if you can, um, I'm always interested in like the actual day to day of it. Like, how, how did you decline? Like what, looking back now, what did you notice like that, that took you from, wait a minute, this doesn't feel good to that feeling that you talked about of washing over your body and just continuing on?
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. I remember, uh, Saturday morning, and I would usually do my training rides. So I've done two Iron Man events, which are really large triathlons. So I would, I got into a pretty good rhythm of riding my bike every Saturday. And I remember it was one Saturday, and he showed up at my house, and he asked me to go to breakfast. And I was like, well, you know, I normally ride my bike on Saturdays. And he sort of like put his, his hand lovingly on my leg and sort of coerced me into un handing that bike ride. And I didn't ride my bike for quite a while after that. Um, I just sort of fell into this idea that I should be, you know, by golly, I'm gonna be more loving. I'm gonna make this relationship work, and it's my job and I'm doing the right thing.
Vanessa Reiser: I'm gonna lean into this and I'm gonna be as loving as I can. And, um, you know, there was this whisper in the back that I had had failed relationships too, and it must be my fault, and this is what real love looks like and all of this garbage. So, um, the on handing of the bike was a big one. Um, I moved out of my house, so I unhand a lot of my identity, a lot of, um, the things that I enjoyed doing that were very grounded, healthy, um, hobbies, I just got caught up in his world and I, I really leaned into that. Um, but yeah, I think what's really interesting is that the, the way I got out of it, I was able to go and find her again. I was able to go find that woman again. I said, let me go find her.
Dr. Robin Stern: How did you do it?
Vanessa Reiser: Um, I, it was a very slow process. I just began to, um, get connected to very grounded behaviors, like, you know, yard work, believe it or not, or running or anything that had to do with the five senses, touch, smell, taste, music, things that would connect me back to her. And it, I do counsel people who have, um, who are trying to get their family members out of cults to use that dialectical behavioral therapy sort of, um, experience around the five senses, because you can try to, um, elicit in the victim's minds who they were prior to the cult. Who are you prior to the relationship, what kinds of music, what was mom making in the kitchen that smells to sort of trigger that, like, you know, um, reference to the days of your, so you have to kind of use the five senses, I think, to get back to who you were because you really lose yourself.
Vanessa Reiser: Um, and that's what I did. I started power washing my house when I finally got home, and I was elated just the sun on my body and the dirt and the music and just all of those, um, I was able to recall. It felt like very much like I was able to recall who she was. Um, so whatever gets you back to who you are, that is the chef's kiss. The problem is for many victims of narcissistic abuse, if they have a narcissistic parent, they have a particularly hard time because they really haven't, I, I, they haven't found an identity. They haven't sort of secured an identity. So when I'm working with those clients, we have to really get into figuring out who they even are in the first place, which is a really big hole to climb out of. So I think they have it particularly hard, but I think if you can find who you were prior in an intimate relationship or a cult, I think that's, that's the, the gold of it. So a candle, a smell, a warm cooked meal, a bath, uh, a good giggle. Um, all of the things that are who you were prior are your way out.
Dr. Robin Stern: And do you encourage people to, uh, connect with the people who they knew before they accommodated themselves away?
Vanessa Reiser: I, it, it really depends. Um, I think you have to kind of, it's a little bit of trial and error to see who's gonna hold space for you and who can honor what you've gone through, who gets it. I lost a lot of friends in this experience. I heard a lot of, he never did anything to me, you know, this kind of narrative, which was very, very painful. Um, and so I had to find a good gaggle of women that I feel really supported by who get it and land with them. And it's never been better. I mean, I, I lost a ton of friends, but I think that was another silver lining because that needed to happen. Um, I needed to get into a safer space. But yeah, if they're people who understand it or who are willing to try to understand it and really love you and hold space for you, then those are your people.
Dr. Robin Stern: So people are listening. And what do you, what do you really want people to be taking away from listening to us? Talk about narcissistic abuse and how insidious it is, and the shame involved, and the flat red flags. What's the most important thing?
Vanessa Reiser: I would say, like Dr. Ramini says, um, it's not you. And I think step into your power. Find something you're passionate about, do something crazy, be bold. I think in our patriarchal societies, we are kind of groomed into servitude, um, without even realizing it, you know, through media and religion and things like that. I think it's important to do the crazy thing. The run across New York was crazy and it was
Dr. Robin Stern: Fabulous
Vanessa Reiser: By far the smartest thing I've ever done in my life. And it was absolutely mad. And so I think that's what I'm learning is you're real. If you're ever not doing something crazy, then you're probably not growing and you're probably not changing. And so, you know, do the crazy thing. Take the risk, do the, the bold move. Um, a lot of my clients, I would liken into being like a bird in a cage, but the cage door is open, and I see that for them a lot, and they need to sort of fly, you know? So I think stepping into your power, a lot of them feel like they're prisoners. Um, and I honor that. Um, and it's obviously a case by case basis, but by and large, I think the idea is to really step into your power. The narcissist is allergic to your power. It's like kryptonite, your autonomy is, is their, you know, they're horrified by that. So go for it. Do the things that I think are, that you think might be scary.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So such beautiful words. I'd like to pivot and ask you about, um, the therapist self-disclosure that Oh, yes, you practice, that's so important. So in, as I was saying in the introduction just briefly when I was in training, like never talk about yourself. In fact, uh, sometimes as a facilitator in groups where they're asking us to be, uh, facilitators and members at the same time, I, I have a hard time doing it because my training was so intense about never say anything. So I'm very personally interested in, uh, how you moved in that direction, and I completely agree that it's wonderful. So tell us about it.
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah, I too was trained a certain way to not disclose. And I figured out I was working in the Bronx, uh, for the Jewish Board, uh, when I first got out of university. And it was, um, a few of my clients that were expressing to me, it's very triage style, right? So everybody in there is in the foster care system. It's like in the belly of the beast in the city. And I learned so much there, and it was really why I went into social work. I absolutely loved it. Um, but they were, you know, kind of talking to me about all of their challenges. And I really did have a lot of adversity in my childhood. Um, you know, we didn't have a lot of food and, and heat and things, so I was kind of this ragamuffin Irish kid, and I really related to a lot of things I was witnessing.
Vanessa Reiser: And when clients would say to me, you know, I'm gonna go for my GED, I would be like, I've got my GED what Ms V, you got your GED oh my God. You know, because they're thinking that in some ways I'm like this hierarchical figure, and I would put myself in their space, which is what social work, the social work mantras, you know, meet people where they're at. And I could see the validation and the magic that was happening when people were feeling like, wait a minute, like, you know, I can do this. Um, and I ran with it and it was just organic. I don't know. But it, it made my, it made my clients and myself connect in a way that I think benefited everyone. I felt less crazy. They felt less crazy and off they went, you know, to sort of, you know, make their way in the world.
Vanessa Reiser: And I do that today. So with my clients, to the extent that I can support them through my own disclosure, I do that. Obviously it's very, uh, careful because of a variety of different reasons. But, um, they sometimes ask me like, did this happen to you? Or, um, but I think especially in this space as it relates to narcissistic abuse, my clients don't even wanna talk to anybody that doesn't get it. They don't want a therapist. They've been wronged by therapists before. Maybe the therapist wasn't a marriage counselor who sort of, you know, didn't get it. There's two sides to every story. And so for me specifically, it's, it is all they're looking for, quite honestly, is to know that I've gone through something like that. Um, and that's why I think it's really important for clinicians, you know, when it, when it makes sense to offer that kind of, um, information.
Dr. Robin Stern: I, I completely agree, and certainly through the years I've come to that myself and, and especially around gaslighting, um, uh, when I shared that I went through a gaslighting experience for a period of time in the way that I shared with you people, I'm like, wow, you know, thank you. And, and I think in training young therapists or supervising young therapists to just to be mindful as you're saying that you're making the decision, um, to share something when it's helpful to the client, not just because you can't wait to tell.
Vanessa Reiser: That's right. Yeah. And I think that that's something that most clinicians do a good job of understanding because they have that background training and absolutely no, no, no, don't share. So they're already treading carefully. They're kind of like, I don't know, does this add value? But yeah, in this space, in the domestic violence space, there's almost like an underground movement of sorts where people are sort of winking and nodding, like, I get it. And that's, it's magic, especially when your alternative might be to go to a domestic violence center and they have not discovered the vernacular or curriculums that are necessary. I mean, I was on the board for Domestic Violence center when I went through my situation and they were, they mishandled it terribly. So there are tons of, I put that in my book actually, how they can improve their practices. Um, but it really is this underground kind of, you know, like locking arms of sorts for, for, for victims. So I think that's, in this case, very important. But yeah, it in general, it is a good, it is good practice if it's done right.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I agree with that. So tell us more about what you're doing next. So you're going to be speaking about your book when your book comes out and, and you're gonna continue to practice and, um, send out those healing messages and techniques to the world and tell us more.
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah, so we did our, we did our run across New York, then we did New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. So next year I might do Rhode Island. I'm still doing the smaller states 'cause I'm getting older and the knees are like, eh, cut it out. Um, and then we have the book launch October 29th, which is very exciting. Um, I did write a book, um, narcissistic Abuse, A Therapist Guide to Identifying, escaping and Healing from Toxic and Manipulative People. You can get it at hashet group hase book group.com. It's also available on Amazon, uh, target, Walmart, stuff like that. Um, and I have a nonprofit, uh, tell a therapist.org where we will connect you to a narc savvy clinician in your respective state. We don't like to leave anybody without a therapist that gets it
Dr. Robin Stern: And do teletherapy on, um, through the, through your nonprofit.
Vanessa Reiser: Yeah, everything is telehealth for the most part. I do see clients in person. Um, I'm in New Jersey near Red Bank, so I do kind of do that, but by and large clients are finding it way more convenient at this point, having gone through covid, um, people sort of understand how to do the Zoom world. And so, you know, rather than get in the car, um, some clients are very specific about in-person still, and that's fine. But by and large, I think people are find it more convenient. So still doing that. I have clinicians that work under me that specialize in narcissistic abuse, which is a gift because I was sort of drinking out of a fire hose for a while there. Um, and that's tremendous. But yeah, continuing to, you know, service this population. And then also, uh, I have a particular interest as of late in shining a light on the judicial system. The family court system is, um, domestic terrorism and human trafficking of the highest order. And so, um, those people suffering co-parenting or, or with a narcissist have it the worst in my opinion. So that's kind of been a, a, a very recent passion of mine. And, and I continue to work with Tina Swen and others too, uh, makes some noise around that problem.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And are, do you think that the courts have any interest in listening?
Vanessa Reiser: I think the courts, um, the courts are filled with narcissists themselves. Um, so a good amount of them don't care and then the others don't get it, or both. And so we are gonna have to get some watchdogs in there, some oversight, some new legislation to see any changes. Um, but Tina Sw and I believe is doing the Lord's work. I put that in my book. I mean, she goes up against judges, attorneys, guardian ad litems and, and, and she's as bold as can be. And I, I just bow down. I, I mean, I've spoken to Dr. Romney about this directly about how I think she is a formidable, um, creature in this movement. I can't, I just can't say enough about the work that she's doing. And that's really what I think is gonna be the change, is when the legislation comes to pass and people start to, um, have to, judges have to adhere and have responsibility for, um, what kind of decisions they make. Because oftentimes they'll, um, force, um, victims to go to counseling with an abuser force children to get in front of an abuser. And this is not adding value to anyone. So a lot of work to be done, but I I'm, I'm glad to see people are, are sort of leading the charge there.
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, so what is Tina doing? What is her background or?
Vanessa Reiser: So Tina, Tina was herself a victim. She runs, um, the Group one Mom's Battle. And what she does is she kind of advocates for victims in those spaces. So she holds, um, rallies outside of courtrooms and she puts the faces and names of judges that have been, um, making bad calls out into the public. And, um, it, I think it's brilliant what she's doing. 'cause that's all, that's all been going on in the shadows for far too long. Yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. And people feel helpless to do anything about it. So I think I'm, I'm hopeful that many people listening will, uh, look her up and look you up and, and certainly Dr. Romney as well, and, and follow fellow their lead. So thank you so much for being on my podcast and for sharing your wisdom and for sharing your yourself and your, your story. And, um, and there is that silver lining to the suffering that you've gone through. And, um, my heart is with you and, um, I'll come and hear your book Talk in Brooklyn, and I can't wait.
Vanessa Reiser: Thank you so much, really,
Dr. Robin Stern: Vanessa, where can we find you? Where can my listeners find you?
Vanessa Reiser: Sure. Uh, website is tell T-E-L-L-A therapist.net. You can find me at Vanessa riser, LCSW on Instagram, um, or tell a therapist.org.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you and thank you everyone for listening, and I'll see you next time.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Pettit Marcus Esteve and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
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robin.stern@yale.edu
