Podcast Player Episode 054

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm thrilled today to be with Marcia Cork, who is a new friend and colleague. I'm met in a zoo room as part of a project where both involved with the op-ed writing project, writing for social change, writing to change the world. Marcia is a keynote speaker and facilitator and award-winning producer of trauma and cultural influenced content rooted into personal communication and communication theory. Marcia's focus is on the personal and professional limitations of stress and unconscious grief, the impact that unconscious grief and the grieving process can have in our lives. Her unique approach to change and transformation examines the underlying grief that any of us may have had in our lives. And Marcia's work has been featured in the Boston Globe, in essence, in Forbes, in Fox, and More Outlets. Her work is demonstrated in her workbooks, the Good Grieve, a Guide for exploring what life can look like after loss, trauma and hardship for adults. And my good Grieve a Youth Guide to Navigating Lost Trauma and Hardship. The good way. Marcia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Marceia Cork: Excited to be here. Excited to chat with you again.

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I really was, um, delighted when I read your books and, um, there's so much that I want to ask you and talk about. But I'll just start with your e motivity toolkit. Okay. And hug time. So, can you talk about, um, given that your work centers on restorative communications and practices and the role of grief, not just in for a loss, but also for life events, um, can you talk about what led you to create content that was so warm and user friendly and taking that approach rather than explaining more?

Marceia Cork: So it evolved out of the actual framework and, and, and doing that one-on-one, doing that with, um, with the parents and then trying to give them suggestions for working with the kids at home on their own. So I have a grief framework. I'm a, um, certified grief support specialist. When I meet with people, I walk them through my framework. That's all it was meant to be, just a step by step for me, because I'm just that kind of person. I like to go through the process, um, as clo, you know, the same way or as close to it as possible. And, um, so I, I, I had something, it was documented for me, and then I would have these exercises that I'd have people do at home. And of course, what would happen is nobody would do it. You know, they'd say they were gonna do it, they'd go home and they would not do their homework.

Marceia Cork: Um, and I decided, okay, well, maybe I could at least document some of the exercises and send it home to them, and that way they'd be more inspired to do the work, come back with it. Um, so that's all it was. It was just this, this model that I was using, um, documented only so that I would have some structure and then I would come up with exercises if I was working with a parent for what they could do to support their child at home. Sometimes they were dealing with, you know, the same loss. If it was the loss of, of, of a, a husband or a grandfather, um, you know, grandparent that, that sort of thing. And what happened was I was approached, um, to, to help someone else write their book. And they didn't have, they didn't specialize in grief, so they were like, well, I, you know, I have this idea, but, um, the client really wants someone to incorporate, um, you know, some, some support exercises for grief.

Marceia Cork: And I was, I was like, well, I, you know, I have these things, but, um, I, I, I guess I could just, you know, jot some ideas down, turn them into full on exercises, and that's what I did. So these things were supposed to be incorporated into their book. It was gonna be, you know, a collaboration. And then I don't know what happened. The client just never moved forward. Meanwhile, I had documented it. So since things never happened with that book, I said, okay, well this is, you know, maybe God in the universe telling me to just go, go ahead and do this on my own. And that's what I did. So I, I documented it, , you know, formally turned it into a book, and then that became the workbook. So there's the adult version, which is, like I said, what I would take the adults through.

Marceia Cork: And that's, um, the good grief. The good grief, yeah. Then the youth version is my good grief. So it's the exercises when you mention hug time, and, and when you mention, um, IMO and Imani and the I Motiv, those were the exercises that I would have kind of like for the adults, but then I modified them, so they were more youth friendly. Um, and, you know, the language kind of is more fitting for people who, for, for kids, for people who are, you know, five to 17 years old and able to do this on their own. So those, um, they just emerged out of the same activities, just kind of modified for youth, and, and they became the book, the books.

Dr. Robin Stern: I love it. And I, I, I love the illustrations as well. They're so warm and, and friendly, and they're not, uh, they don't take you over, you know, they're very simple and the book is accessible and simple and, and really important. And, and what came first, the books or your podcast, and tell us about the podcast and how you have managed to capture the attention of so many. So,

Marceia Cork: The podcast came first. Um, the, like I said, the workbooks just kind of evolved, you know, as I was approached to, I would, I, I would never, I don't, I won't say never, but books were not on my mind. I never considered myself a writer or an author. Even the approach to, um, putting the word out about the books and then, um, you know, doing book launches and doing events, signing events and all of that were never on my radar because I didn't think as an author. So the podcast came first. Um, the podcast was about, it was called at the time, Ooh, those F and C words, and the C words were change and navigating that change with confidence. But, um, over time, I would start to have some of my clients going through grief support on the show. They wanted to share their stories.

Marceia Cork: And, um, so I would, you know, take them through the, uh, framework. And these would be, you know, the coaching sessions, um, uh, recorded and shared on the podcast. Um, and then, uh, it just kind of happened organically that I was walking people through the process. It, it wasn't a book yet, but eventually the episodes were kind of happening alongside developing the book. And I organically started talking about the book, referring to the book, um, you know, page, page 20, page 21. And it was just kind of happening organically. And that's how it just, um, you know, took, took on a, a, a life of its own, I guess, is what I would say, without me being the author and without me being, you know, strategic in, um, alerting people to the book, or alerting people to the different activities and to, um, to the processes. It was really just, I was having a conversation. The conversation was being recorded. Um, they wanted me to share it on the podcast, and occasionally I would mention the frameworks and the books and the exercises. So,

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting. And, and as we're talking in our conversation, your background and, and your o the other areas that you work at, like coaching are emerging. So let me ask you to take yourself, um, all the way back and tell our listeners how you started. What about what was going on for you personally, or what were you seeing in your, your personal and professional life that being so impassioned about, uh, the f and c words that you wanted to start a podcast and, and what gave you the, the courage and, um, uh, the permission to step into your own authority about that so that you would have this incredible podcast, which it is.

Marceia Cork: Thank you. Let's see. So it, it feels like, you know, following the Bouncing Ball, because , I'm a communicator, first and foremost, my background is in communications. So, um, the way it happened was I started consulting and I started, um, doing, you know, corporate, corporate training and facilitation.

Dr. Robin Stern: What were you training about when you said, I'm Marcia Cook Cork, I'm here to see you, and I'd like to talk about, um, helping your organization changed. Was that it, or was, were people approaching you in a different way in that you began to work in the area of change and letting go of certain things and moving on?

Marceia Cork: Well, I initially started in, um, like I said, communication. So it was interpersonal communication, it was intercultural communication. Um, it was, um, persuasive, persuasive and strategic communication for public relations. Um, that's what it started out as. So I was an adjunct, I was adjunct faculty with Trinity Washington University. Uh, I was teaching, like I said, interpersonal, intercultural, all all things communications. Um, the, I got to, um, I guess I would say I became one of the student faves, and the dean started to hear more about my approach. They would, um, actually get to the point where they'd say, I'm not taking this class until, um, until Professor Cork teaches it. And my name, you know, just started to get a little bit of buzz and made its way to, um, HR and HR wanted to do some, um, trainings under the umbrella of DEI. And the way that I was going about teaching intercultural and cross-cultural communication is what generated that buzz.

Marceia Cork: And they, like, we, we would like to see DEI done differently, um, the students like, what, like, what you're doing? And these are also graduate students and, um, you know, professionals coming back for their degrees. So it's not just young people approaching them. These are grown people approaching in them. And that's how they got the idea to have this as part of the training under the Trinity Trinity Institute. So that was where I started. Um, I was, like I said, teaching evenings and weekends home during the day with my newborn, um, oh, maybe she might've been a toddler by that point, but that's when I said, okay, well, if Trinity wants me to, you know, offer this under the, uh, umbrella of DEI, I should start pitching this to other organizations. And so that's what it started out as. My consultation initially was in the DEI space, I started pitching, um, workshops like, um, inclusive leadership, um, cross-cultural considerations for managers, cross-cultural considerations for, um, senior leadership and executive leadership.

Marceia Cork: And that's what it became. So for years, it was under the DEI space, but then I started using those same techniques to, um, help people prepare for change in organizational readiness, all still kind of under the umbrella of, um, inclusive leadership and change, changing the culture in the workspace. Uh, so it became change management. I'm certified, I'm a certified change practitioner, and then it just led to more work under organ organizational readiness and, um, just helping people navigate change in the workplace. So from there, , what I realized is for the people who were the most resistant to the change, they would be the ones coming to me, you know, pulling me aside, let's have this private conversation of, um, why I just can't do this. You know, why I just don't wanna make this change. Why this is so difficult. You know, for me, and out of these one-on-ones, I would, we would just have these really, um, intimate, warm, um, candid conversations about what was, what was going on with them personally, personally and professionally, but would get a lot more into their personal lives.

Marceia Cork: And I realized that the common thread with all of these people is that they were grieving something. And so I thought, okay, well, how do I reach these people? I need to support them through that grief and this hardship. And so I became a certified, a certified grief support specialist. And so now all of those things are just kind of in my toolkit, the how to navigate change, um, how to address the underlying grief and, um, other hardships that we're just navigating in our life that just really take up mental space and don't allow us to focus and, um, plan for our futures and be hopeful anymore. And, uh, you know, just have other desires, um, and outcomes for our lives. And it was necessary to kind of clear that fog first, and then we could discuss, um, what life looks like on the other side of this change.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, Marcia, in your experience, what were the most, or what are the most common misconceptions that people have about grief, especially, um, when those people are stressed and burned out and high achievers?

Marceia Cork: Well, um, I'll address the grief specifically first, because what I do notice in everyone is that they say grief recovery. Um, I like to say grief support. It's just, it's just kind of, you know, part of the language that we use. But I don't, I've stopped wanting to give the impression that grief ends that you don't constantly grieve. It will feel different over time. Um, the way that you grieve will feel different over time. The way you honor that grief or lean into that grief will change over time, but you will still grieve the person or the, the thing that changed or is, um, what, what you feel is missing in your life. So, I don't like to say healing from grief. I don't really like to say recovery. I like to say grieving and support, you know, just supporting a person through their grief. So that, so that's one thing that I would say maybe is a misconception if we, if we wanna say there's a misconception, is that there, um, that you get over grief that you recover or are cured of grief. Um, so I do like to clear that up. That's one of the things so

Dr. Robin Stern: Important. Can you say that again,

Marceia Cork: ? Yeah. Life just changes. Yes. You know, you don't, you are not cured of grief. Um, you are not fully recovered of grief. You would just, you will grieve differently and you will still recognize the part of your life that's, that's missing. Um, but then also see that that now that is now a part of your life ongoing,

Dr. Robin Stern: Right? So there's no beginning and end to grief. It just morphs and changes, and everyone has their own individual experience. Absolutely. So some people are crying and some people are not crying, and some people are writing journals, and some people are not. And some people are coloring and, and doing a lot of conversation about grief and other people don't wanna talk about it, and that's all. Okay. I would assume that you would agree with that.

Marceia Cork: Yes. So, like I said, everybody will grieve differently. So it's really about helping people acknowledge healthy ways of grieving and unhealthy ways of grieving, um, and some, or to recognize that they're grieving, because some people don't realize that what is happening is that they're grieving and then avoiding it in different ways. And

Dr. Robin Stern: So they know you make the important, um, point over and over again that, um, that grief and loss is not just tied to somebody's dying. Right. There are, when I, I, and I wanna bring the conversation in, in a few minutes to gaslighting. When you give up a relationship, even a relationship that is not a healthy relationship for you, there's grief, there's loss. Absolutely. So how, um, first tell us how you got to that place where that became so apparent to you that people are grieving even when there's not a death. And, um, then if you can go back to the individual healthy and unhealthy ways and, okay. Sorry. I know like a lot of question in one question. No,

Marceia Cork: No, no, that's good. And, and I, and, and I can answer them both, both, because they are one and the same. Um, so, so what I was saying earlier is that I noticed that the common thread between the people is that, um, they all seem to be experiencing grief or what looked like grief to me, even though they were very different things. So some people would say something like, um, you know, I have a child about to go off to college. Like, that's where my attention is. Um, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm focused on that. And so there's focus on college, but then there's also the reality that this child won't be home anymore. And so you're grieving what life looks will look like, or, or, or life differently with the child not being at home. It would be, I'm dealing with a sick parent.

Marceia Cork: Um, so yes, we're dealing with the stress of maybe dealing with a, a sick parent, but then also realizing that that person is changed and your dynamic has changed, and there's a part of your, uh, there's something that's different and that you miss about that person. So these, there are these things happening alongside you explaining what's going on in your life, and, you know, my empathy and compassion kicking in, like, wow, what, what must that, you know, what might that feel like? Um, and then the common thread was some sense of loss and grief. And so the grief support really just became, I didn't realize at the time I was on my way to becoming, um, to coaching people through grief. I didn't, I wasn't thinking about becoming a certified grief support specialist at that time. It was more of how could, how do I help these people navigate change? And so for years, you know, I brand myself as the change coach. I didn't even talk about grief or the specialization in grief. It was just this thing that I added to my toolkit is when I recognized that there is underlying grief, I'm gonna also help support them through that. Then we can work on the change. That was how it was by design. How

Dr. Robin Stern: Did you realize that it was so important to, um, out the grief, if you will, to shine a light on it and say you, what you're experiencing is grief, whether it was to your clients or to the public. And rather than just move, move into, um, or lean a little further into the coaching process of change, like, okay, so you're going through a change. Yes. And you're grieving such an important thing. Thank you for doing that.

Marceia Cork: Thank you for noticing, because I don't really think I ever thought about before how I recognized it as grief. But as we're talking about it now, what was happening simultaneously is I was navigating, uh, separation. So my husband and I actually ended up being separated for about two years. But, um, what was happening is, as I mentioned earlier, I was, um, teaching evenings and weekends so that I could be home with my daughter. So I'd left the traditional corporate space, I'd left the nine to five, and I was a consultant, um, and, you know, educator, facilitator, trainer, all those things, but not full-time. So while I was making money, I wasn't making the kind of money that prepared me for being single and taking care of, at this point now two kids, um, on what I was making as a consultant. Um, so I was grieving what was happening in my relationship, and I was also having a difficulty making that transition back into full-time work. So I think I was just able to relate to people on a lot of different levels because of what I was going through personally and for myself. I recognized it as grief, and so then I could see grief in others.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's so important. And what happened for you professionally or as a professional when you began to, um, encourage people to, to feel their grief and to notice their grief? Did did things start to change for you and your model of coaching at that point?

Marceia Cork: That is when the business model changed. Um, I, all of this was also happening, um, alongside Covid. So the, um, being, being a, uh, working in change management, working in organizational red readiness and organizational development, um, I was a contractor, so I was back to FTE, you know, a, a nine to five, so to speak. But as a consultant and contractor, and then during Covid, all of that shut down. So I wasn't moving on to the next contract. And then I thought, how do I, um, continue this? Or how do I expand this as a business model where I'm not going in as a contractor and working, you know, for someone else? How do I do this same thing, um, on a broader scale? How do I, how do I expand this vision and scale the business, um, in a way that really solidifies my footing as an entrepreneur?

Marceia Cork: I don't think I was, I had my toe in for all those years. It was what I was able to do so that I could be home with the kids, but still have steady income, um, feel fulfilled professionally, but I wasn't giving it my all. And so the coaching model, um, now, you know, at now that I'm certified also as a grief support specialist, just kind of changed the business model, expanded the services that I was offering, and then it turned into, um, one-on-one, but then with, um, not just, you know, individuals, but then families and then couples and, um, teaching them to give this type of support to their children. So all of these things just kind of happened and, and then, you know, the books came out of it. So I can't say that it was strategic at all. It wasn't a, I will do this and then now I'll do this. And then it kind of segues to this, it was more of things were happening for me personally, um, and then I felt that I could offer that level of support to others because of what I was navigating.

Dr. Robin Stern: So more meant to be than strategic. Yeah. And following your path. Yeah. And, and being open to the work in front of you that, that had the most resonance. Mm-Hmm. . Well, speaking of resonance, of course, you know that this is a Gaslight Effect podcast. Yes. a lot of resonance for me in my life and my practice. And, uh, I wonder if we can now begin a conversation that maybe we'll finish, um, or finish in part during this episode, and maybe we'll have to continue it in, uh, another episode, certainly in person for sure, or on Zoom. Yes. Um, but there's a connection between my work in gaslighting and communications and addressing how you have chosen to address toxic relationships and behaviors in everyday life. Can you talk about how you address toxicity?

Marceia Cork: How I address toxicity? Um, so all of this comes back to me being a communicator first and foremost. So I would say, um, it really just kind of evolved out of, and then I guess I should, you know, maybe, um, tie this to how the work started, how I found my way to the op-ed Project . Um, so I even, because like I said, this just kind of happened organically and, and not strategic meant to be, but not strategic, um, even as I made those revelations in what I was doing and applying it to my own life. So if I'm, if I'm talking about communication styles, conflict resolution styles and culture, um, and those types of things, and I'm showing people how to inject those things, or, you know, have those things top of mind as leaders, um, how to inclu to, you know, create a more inclusive workspace, you know, all of that.

Marceia Cork: I'm, I was making the connection then to my own life and realizing how I could apply this to my relationship, you know, the separation that I was navigating. But at that time, I still didn't think about doing this for couples. I didn't think about it being then a, you know, coaching or support model for couples. So what you now know as the compatibility project and the couples project that, you know, we talked about during our conversation with the op-ed project, uh, didn't exist at the time that I was applying this to my life professionally. Um, I can't even really say when I decided to do that. Yes, I can. I do, I know exactly when that was. It was when I started to hear gaslighting and narcissism in almost every post. Like it was just all over social media, you know, 20 22, 20 23, I think I just saw an overwhelming amount of posts using those two terms.

Marceia Cork: And I know what gaslighting is, I know what narcissism is, and I didn't really see that to be the case in all of these examples. But what I felt I was seeing was just reckless use of the terms. And, and so then I started thinking about, well, there is gaslighting behavior. There are narcissistic traits, but there's a lot more that goes on in conflict and in conflict resolution and in making communication effective. And that's when I started thinking, okay, this is a broader conversation about communication styles, about conflict resolution styles, and about culture clash. Um, and that happens in relationships the same way that it was happening in the workplace. And that's when I started thinking about, all right, if, if we are seeing this in couples, there's clearly a need for these broader conversations about, you know, compatibility in relationships. And if communication is why relationships fail, what can I do?

Marceia Cork: What can I do to start talking about having better and more effective communication in couples? I started playing around with the idea of toxicity, you know, just kind of being a commentator and talking about toxicity in, um, in the relationships that we see on tv, in reality tv in pop culture. And, and not just in intimate relationships, but also in our friendships and, um, again, in, in the workplace. But seeing these examples played out on television, um, and in, you know, pop culture, just, you know, social media. We could use these examples and then apply 'em to their own, to our own lives. Uh, and that's when I said, okay, let's, let's, let's give this some life. Let's have this take shape as a compatibility project. Um, and then that brings us to present day .

Dr. Robin Stern: What did that look like when you, when you said, okay, you know, I'm taking a step into that space, what did you do?

Marceia Cork: Um, so I had gone to dinner with, um, some fo um, you know, in some empowerment groups, women's empowerment groups, and was talking about the, the couples project, the compatibility project, and, um, mentioned it to Maya, Rocky Moore Cummings, and she, the widow of Elijah Cummings. Um, and just in talking about it with her, she says, you should, you, you need to get more vocal with this. You need to get more visible with this. Maybe you should reach out to the op-ed project. You should start, you know, developing this as opinion pieces. Um, and those opinion pieces might lead to, you know, being a commentator and getting it out there. Um, so I, I thought about that. Um, I didn't move on it immediately. Maybe it took a couple of weeks, but alongside that, I was develop, I was starting to pitch myself for more of these toxicities, you know, like talking about dishing the tea on what's happening in pop culture and in the reality space. But, um, you know, talking about this toxicity and, and strengthening relationships through improved communication. So those things were kind of happening at the same time. And then, um, I moved forward with the op-ed project, and as I was doing that, the idea for the compatibility project just started to take shape. So the works, they supported one another. And here we are. I met you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Great story. I know people will learn a lot from listening that, you know, just having an idea is wonderful, but actually doing something with your idea, uh, is not only wonderful for you, but also wonderful for people out there and for the world, for the community. So what do you do when people come to you when they're describing something that, uh, is either a misuse of the word gaslighting, but, um, nonetheless toxic or not a misuse? And they're actually describing gas lighting where one person, somebody's trying to drive them crazy, and yet they can't quite let go of the relationship. Because for me, the, um, the point where people are making a choice to let go and then grieve, and there will be an understanding that there will be loss, there will be something to mourn is, and the resistance to at that point is so, so important and keeps people hooked for so long. Because, you know, if you let go, uh, as you've had the experience in separating as I've had the experience, because I, many years ago, divorced my ex-husband, um, no matter what was going on in the relationship, there is something to mourn, even if it was the fantasy that things could get better, or the fantasy of the life or the, the wish for the life that you were not able to have for whatever reason. And so you hold on, because who wants to feel that?

Marceia Cork: Yeah, yeah. Well, it continues to be a conversation about, um, just effective communication and, uh, going through this process of understanding, learning more about yourself and learning more about your communication style and your conflict resolution style, and then getting to the point where you do this ongoing self-assessment, and you can start to see it in others. So you can start to see it. If, if, if we're talking about compatibility and, and, and strengthening your own relationship, then you can see it in your partner. So you will, you know, kind of, um, be more familiar with gaslighting tendencies like, you know, when it's happening, or behavior that would be called gaslighting. But alongside that, you're also noticing, um, you know, whether this person is a, a, a really expressive person just in general, or if they're a more restrained person, you're going to pay more attention to what nonverbal communication says.

Marceia Cork: Um, you know, body language, um, passive aggressive behavior. You're going to learn more about, as I talk about, you know, culture is at the heart of this too. Are there differences in the way that we were raised? Um, I love the example, um, in your book of Mitchell, 'cause it's, you know, it's kind of like the perfect case study. And so here we have someone who, um, grew up with this, like, this is decades of exposure, um, to a parent who gaslights and how, who does Mitchell evolve into? What does what communication and conflict resolution style does Mitchell develop after decades of having to defend himself to have his truth and his reality distorted by someone who loves him?

Dr. Robin Stern: So you, I would could ask that question in a different way. How does Mitchell develop him himself after decades of downloading this way of relating to your children for free? Right? He didn't ask for it, he just downloaded it for free. He watched it modeled every day, and even though he didn't like it, is he going to become someone who does it to his children? Mm-Hmm. or he, how do you move Mitchell to the point where he says, you know, I don't like this. Yeah. And I'm not gonna do it anymore.

Marceia Cork: And that's what, and that's where we have this conver this broader conversation, um, about communication and conflict styles in general. You know, we're, we're always gonna say it's about, um, having just improved communication is going to, it is going to be, um, analytical. It's going to be, you know, it's gonna have some reverence, it's gonna have some deference, it's gonna have compassion and empathy. Like this is what emotional regulation and good communication looks like. There's going to be some active listening, not just listening to, you know, respond and ambush. Uh, so that is what I'm hoping someone like Mitchell learns over time, is that, um, I maybe have developed some inefficient ways of communicating, or some unhealthy ways of standing firm in my position, um, or wanting to advocate for myself or communicate to others what I need and want, uh, because of this unhealthy exposure that I've had over decades.

Marceia Cork: So what this work does is tells us about what effective communication look like, looks like, what healthy communication looks like, what advocating for yourself looks like, but then also understanding, um, that same need exists in the, on the, the other, the person on the other side of, of that exchange, right? Communication is two way. So it's, it's, it's how I see things, but it's, but it's also realizing that you see things differently. But explain that to me. So don't just push ideas and push wants, um, and push positions on me without us having separate conversations about why you feel this way and how you, uh, how you got to feel this way. And do you recognize it as damaging if at some point you become critical or you start to demean, or, you know, belittle me, or, um, try to distort my reality. Do you care enough to recognize that you're doing it and are we gonna change it? And so that's when,

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. Uh, really critical question, like, um, because the, the kinds of questions I interrupted you, I apologize, but No,

Marceia Cork: No, no. This, this is the conversation. This is what we want. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, I, I really wanna bring this to life in, um, in a way that I want you to react to please as well, that at some, like your, the tools that you're giving people, and what you were just saying a few minutes ago about the need to talk about it and need to engage not only yourself, but the other at some point with some people, ends with your knowing. There's no, there's no there there. Like, you're not gonna get through you. You must just engage. And I wonder if you could speak to that. Like, how do you know from your perspective in working with couples, uh, and working with this, um, the importance of not only knowing these things yourself, being skillful yourself, but also then, uh, co-regulating with the other and helping someone else perhaps come to calm or come to a place where we can have an open conversation? How do you know when that's not gonna happen? And you need to pull back?

Marceia Cork: Yeah. So, so there was this word, and I, and I, I, I smile when I say it because it's a word that I started using when I was teaching, and I would refer people, um, refer to people as our intimates. So, you know, so when we are having communication, communication with our intimates, and so I would say, well, there are, um, you know, different degrees of intimacy, there are relationships that we care more about. So maybe they aren't all intimates, but there are people on the other side of this communication, right? Whoever they are. So now, if we're not gonna call them intimates, then who are they? And how intimate are they going to be? How much do I care about this relationship? How much of an impact or influence does this relationship have on my life long term? So if we're talking about, um, navigating these types of exchanges with coworkers or with our boss, um, then they have some impact on our life.

Marceia Cork: They're gonna be in our lives long term. If we are talking about partners, um, then they're gonna be in our lives, well, depending on what we decide , they're gonna be on in our lives long term, you know, they have an impact and some influence on our lives. And so that's what we start to measure first is how much do we care about this relationship? Because how much we care about this relationship is gonna d determine how much work we put into it, whether there, whether it's worth putting any work into it, and also knowing that this work is permanent, right? So you don't, this isn't something that you learn today and you fix tonight, and then your problems are solved. So when you commit to doing this work, this work is forever, because people don't change. People change behavior. Like we will modify our behavior if we decide to do so for people we love, but who we are to decades to form, right?

Marceia Cork: And so we are not going to just automatically change who we are, but when we recognize it in the moment, we will then modify behavior if we care enough about the other person. So it starts there, it is examining first, how much do I care about this person? What impact do they have on my life long term? And how much work do I wanna put on this put into this? And that goes both ways. So now if I, um, have to have my partner or the other, the person on the other side of this exchange do that same analysis, how much do they care about me? How much work are they willing to put into it? And if they aren't willing to do it, well then that changes maybe long-term, how long they stay in your life. There's this, I I, I have this, um, this concept of four C's, and I use the four C's because when we're in relationships, we do all the research necessary to, you know, find out about buying that diamond, right?

Marceia Cork: So everybody knows about cut and, you know, clarity and color and all of that, but there are four Cs that they can also apply to their relationships and to improving communication in general. And so that's to campaign, that's to concede, that's to cease and also consensus. And so with those, and I, you know, kind of shared them a bit as we were talking about, is deciding how much this impor this how important this relationship is to you, and, and to dedicating the time to improving your communication, then that's to campaign, because you have to learn to advocate for yourself, you know, to be firm in your position, but also be comfortable, um, articulating that. Like, what are my needs? What are my wants? What are my beliefs? And expecting your partner to do the same. So, um, if we are able to campaign for ourselves, then that is what healthy communication would look like.

Marceia Cork: But sometimes we do that loyalty response. It's like, okay, I don't care so much about this one. I'm not going for the win here. Um, you know, I, it, it, it, this relationship is more important to me, so I'm gonna, you can have this one then that sometimes we concede it's more of a loyalty response, you know, to, to conflict. But then there are other time, other times when the conversation just isn't productive with gaslighting, in particular, if you are similar to what you do with opting out, it's like, I, I, I see it happening , but I'm not going to engage. Then I'm going to remove myself from the situation, remove myself from the conversation, and that's when we would cease, we would cease communication. And then lastly is consensus. So what we want ultimately for both of us is for there to feel like there's a win on both sides.

Marceia Cork: We want a win-win. We don't want a win-lose situation. And we are always taught to compromise, you know, like from the, from toddlerhood to adult life. We're always taught to compromise. But to compromise usually means that one of us gives up something and the other one doesn't. You know, one of us gets our way and the other one doesn't. One of us is heard and the other one isn't. So what we don't want want is compromise. What we want is consensus. This is mutual agreement. This is, um, having, uh, developing a new set of doing things, a new way of doing things that benefits us both. And so the conversation that we wanna have after we campaign for ourself is to come for a consensus, come to a consensus, consensus on how we're going to handle things, how we're going to see things and move forward. Um, so if we're talking about four Cs and we're not talking about rings, then that's what we're talking about.

Dr. Robin Stern: So well said. So I'm gonna ask you to pivot for a minute before I ask you to let everyone know where they can find you. And just going back to your books, is there a, an essential difference between the way adults and children experience and process grief?

Marceia Cork: Hmm. Yes. Um, so they will experience it differently for sure, but it's mainly because of, um, what life looks like for them. So children won't always have the same number of lived experiences, or maybe the same exposure to, if we're talking about a person who is no longer in our lives, they may not have had the same amount of exposure that the adult will, will have had. Um, and they don't have the lived experiences to fully understand, um, the loss sometimes, or the depth of the loss and the impact of the loss. But they will experience it in their, in their own way. So yes, they will, they will grieve differently. Um, we can, depending on their age, we can explain, um, and have them then understand and internalize the loss differently as well. Like I said, depending on their age, because we wanna be careful with certain language, language if we're, you know, talking to young people, um, where we as adults like to be a little more, um, gingerly with, or, or paraphrase or use, say, use things like loss or the, the person has passed on, or that type of thing, or, um, you know, grandma, granddad is sleeping, you know, that sort of thing that makes sense to us.

Marceia Cork: It doesn't always make sense to children. So with children, you have to be more direct. Uh, so the way that we explain it, and then they understand loss will be different, but they are still experiencing loss and death and other ar hardships alongside you. And we forget that. So sometimes, you know, if a person is navigating a job loss, for example, then the adult is, is thinking about how that affects us financially, you know, right now, three months from now. Um, but they aren't having these conversations always with the child, depending on how old they are. Like, you know, what does life look like for us right now financially and or in three months? So they might not talk about it with them, but the child will sense the stress, the child will see the differences in our activities or who we spend time with, or if we don't have a car anymore, or if our power is out.

Marceia Cork: Like all of these things are happening, you know, to the child alongside what's happening with the parent, but the parent has a full understanding what's going on, and the child is just, you know, not aware of all of that. And it, and that's through lived experiences enough to know what it means when the lights are off or what it means when, um, you know, we don't have food or, you know what I mean? So they are so, they are still developing, unfortunately, um, these insecurities that come alongside even what's not communicated to them. So yes, it's true. They will experience the loss differently or they will experience the hardship differently, but they are experiencing it alongside their adults.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, really beautifully said. And, um, of course, it's hard to hear what you're saying without thinking about the last few years and what's happened around the globe and the, um, just so many new New Yorkers and the refugees and, and kids who have been experiencing war and displacement and, and, um, because our work at the Yale Center for Promotional Intelligence is mainly bringing this work into schools, how, like the, how incredibly beneficial these books are for educators to have in their classroom. And I'm wondering if you, um, have worked in that way. Have you, I mean, you have such an abundance of gifts personally, and, um, there's so much amazing work you're doing in the world that I wouldn't even know which thing to hire you first for first, really, you're, you're wonderful and, um, so easy to talk to and have so much to offer. Um, so thank you for all of that. But have you, and have you worked in, um, in education? Have you, uh, had your books out there?

Marceia Cork: Yeah, so the books are actually, uh, with Arundel County, uh, public school counselors right now. Um, and when it was designed, it was actually designed for a cool, uh, school district in Georgia. So remember I mentioned that someone had reached out, um, about work in, um, social and emotional learning, and they were developing a guide, but wanted grief to be incorporated. So when I designed, uh, the exercises and when I did my portion for that book, it was to be, um, released into schools to support the social and emotional learning. So yes, that is how and why it was created. Um, so it is definitely what the book is intended to do. So thank you for mentioning that.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's a wonderful resource and I will definitely, um, talk about it with my colleagues at, uh, and show and tell my colleagues and would love to have you come and talk to our colleagues at, at DL Center. Um, because all of us are out there in schools and, uh, creating programs and, um, sadly, we live in a world where there's no end to, um, change. And often of course, as you know, change is opportunity, but there, but not without loss, and not without grief, and not without, um, having to manage all those feelings. Um, so unfortunately we have to end our conversation here for now. Stop our conversation for now. Much more to say with you and to you. And, um, please tell two things. Please tell our listeners, um, what, what is next on your, on your journey, what are you planning next? Or is it just deepening? Um, not just, but is it deepening your work, which of course, I'm sure it is to some extent, but is there something you're excited about going forward this year?

Marceia Cork: Well, I'm excited about the compatibility project, the couples project. I use those interchangeably, um, couples. It, I kind of wanna deviate from because it won't, it's not just conversations with couples. It's also, um, people who are single, but they're reflecting on a past relationship or they're, um, you know, using this information for how they want, how they want to approach the next relationship. So it's really more about our compatibility, um, recognizing, like I said, cultural differences, but also the inherent, um, preferences and orientations we have and how that impacts our communication styles and our conflict and conflict resolution styles. So I like saying it's more of a compatibility project. Um, I am forming relationships like this amazing one that we, that, that we're developing now, Robin, with other experts, because I also want to, um, invite them into the compatibility project onto the podcast. I do this work, this, or I have been doing this work as a facilitator, as a trainer, as a coach, um, but designed to be a bridge to other services.

Marceia Cork: You know, you want this type of support to be comprehensive. You want it to be holistic and you want it to be a bridge wherever you can into other mental health services and support. Um, and for the black community, if I can just, you know, speak on that briefly, um, who are still reluctant to leaning into traditional therapy and clinical solutions sometimes. And so having these types of conversations, um, you know, them starting with me, but then talking to you and them, them seeing how easy and practical, um, you know, these types of conversations and, and you know, your book, um, how approachable all of that still is, opens the door to then approach, you know, different, uh, you know, treatments and modalities. So this is what I want. I want us to, to support and amplify each other's work and to introduce, you know, other assessments that exists, other, um, you know, surveys and things like that that exist that just kind of round out the experience of, um, bettering ourselves and, and the support and services that are available to us. So I'm excited to invite those people into the compatibility project with me and then to lean on your knowledge and support for those quotes, for that anecdotal support, for these examples that round out my opinion pieces and round out, you know, my research and the different exercises and things that I wanna incorporate into my framework. So I know that was long, but these relationships are important and that's what I'm looking forward to, to developing more of them.

Dr. Robin Stern: I am happy to be, um, in your mind when you think about that group of people or those professionals that you are liking the conversations with. I'm liking the conversation we're having. And, um, I hope that we'll be doing a lot more of it. I really value, um, this time with you and applaud your work and I hope just keep going in whatever direction calls to you, calls to you, and, uh, what to be, uh, tell people where they can find you online

Marceia Cork: So they can find me. Um, first and foremost, it's always quick and easy to go to my website. So marcia cork.com um, is the website. If they're interested in any additional information, um, about the couples project, they can subscribe by going to marcia cork.com. They can, you know, opt into the newsletter there. Um, they can go to change coach presents.com and that's where they'll get additional information on the compat the compatibility project. If they're interested in submitting their story, sharing their story, being one of the couples or individuals profiled, um, they can go to change coach presents.com/casting call . Lemme say that again 'cause I know that's a lot change. Coach presents.com/casting call and for the experts that want to support, um, change coach, change coach presents.com/call for experts. And lastly, they can follow me on Instagram at it's Marcia Cork and they can search for me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with people there as well.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you very much for your time and your wisdom and your expertise, and I know this has been a really meaningful hour for my listeners, our listeners. So thank you for being my guest, and I look forward to our next time. Thank you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Petit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.