Podcast Player
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I am thrilled and makes me warm and fuzzy inside to have my dear friend Janet Patty, Dr. Janet Patty, and the co-creator of, um, star Factor with me and the author, the lead author of Emotional Intelligence for School Leaders that I'm proud to be the co-author of. Um, and so we have been working together for many years, having dinners together for many years, being involved in each other's families for many years. And this is, this is gonna be a great conversation. So I'm glad you're all joining me and us. And Janet, welcome. I love you. Please tell the audience about yourself.
Dr. Janet Patti: Thank you, Robin. You know, it's funny to be here finally and get a time. I feel like this is really great that we have this opportunity to really talk about some of what we've done together and, uh, and, and, and the reasons why we did that. So, um, um, thank you for having me. Uh, just so people know a little bit about me, I've been in an education my whole life, starting as a teacher, working a school counselor. I worked as a school administrator and finally then moved into college and taught, uh, what we're gonna talk about in part, uh, a I taught about educational leadership at the, at the college level. And that was, um, all about teaching aspiring leaders how to work with their emotional intelligence, which many years later, here we are. And we just wrote a book about that. So it's really, uh, really warming to me, heartwarming to be here and to share some time with you to really talk about this. So thanks for having me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Of course. So let's show a picture of our book to Okay. People who, uh, can see if we're going to have that video clip, emotional intelligence for school leaders. Um, I, I know that we talked about writing a book for so long. I can remember maybe 15 years ago we talked about writing a book and, um,
Dr. Janet Patti: Right. And we told Dan, I remember we spoke, Dan
Dr. Robin Stern: Told Dan Goldman, yes,
Dr. Janet Patti: 2004? Literally. Uh, and we started, if you remember, at New Visions because, um, we had, uh, an entree made for us by, uh, um, Artie Artie Firster.
Dr. Robin Stern: Artie first tell, um, tell me our listeners what New Visions is.
Dr. Janet Patti: Okay, so New Visions, it's, it's gone through many renditions since, but at the time, uh, it was a, an organization very, uh, well received, uh, in the community, in the education community for developing, um, leaders and for creating schools that were really, uh, better than, better than the norm, so to speak, back in the day. And it continues today to be a powerful organization with different leaders and different focus, but nonetheless, it continues to offer great, uh, educational opportunities for, for everyone in the schools. And we got into that organization early on because Artie Forrester, who is a dear friend and wonderful educator, uh, very involved, was very involved in what we then and now call social and emotional learning. In fact, it wasn't really called SEL at the time. It was all about we're gonna teach about emotions, uh, which was something that didn't exist in the schools, if you remember back in the day.
Dr. Janet Patti: Um, and so the work that we just wrote about in emotional intelligence really stemmed from Dan Goldman's initial, uh, desire with Eileen Growl and Rockefeller to create a space in education where we could talk about feelings and emotions along with studying and learning academics. And so today, here we are now, emotional intelligence then came out in the nineties, right? In 1990 when we think about it with Peter Salve and, uh, Jack Mayer's, uh, original White Paper. And then Emotional Intelligence was Brought to Life by Dan Goldman's book. So that, that gives a little background on how, uh, you could tell that, how we got into it then.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, uh, interestingly enough, we met at, if you remember, of course, uh, at Jonathan Cohen's Summer Principal Academy in,
Dr. Janet Patti: I can see it all now,
Dr. Robin Stern: It wasn't even called Summer Principal's Academy. Uh, it was a cent, a Center for Emotional Intelligence.
Dr. Janet Patti: It was yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: At, uh, teachers College, part of their continuing education program. And, uh, quick, we had a quick connection and went out to dinner and had dessert. And, uh, began to talk about what motivated us. We began to talk about what our why is and was, and how we got into this field. And, and that we had both, both embraced emotional intelligence at that point was pretty incredible too. That that was a, maybe not so incredible, but it was definitely a connecting theme for us. And then I began to work with you a little bit at Hunter and then that, and so that then led to us being in the same place at the same time. So I do remember that I went to the training for the, uh, emotional incompetence inventory, which is what it was called at the time. And so did you for different reasons.
Dr. Robin Stern: And then we both came back from that training and said, well, this is really interesting because people can take this assessment and they can get a score on this assessment, but then what are they sup supposed to do with it? And if they don't have these skills, then how do they develop the skills without somebody to help them who may be further along on that journey? And so it was, I think that inspiration that led us to create a process, a coaching process that would help people to work with somebody to develop a relationship with a special, someone who can bring them along, create the space for them to walk into, to develop their skills and emotional intelligence.
Dr. Janet Patti: You know, I, as you're talking, I'm remembering, I don't even think I knew what the word coaching meant back then. It, it, I think it came from your background in, in psychology as a psychologist, that you knew about the field, which was still brand new actually. And that's how we got into it. And, and then we brought Courtney, uh, Martin, yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: It was Courtney Martin, who is phenomenal writer and human being, um, worked with us in that space. And basically, um, we, uh, were very grateful that Courtney did that, and that we then worked with her on, um, writing the model down.
Dr. Janet Patti: That's right. And we were fortunate at the time then to have people who were interested in it, that came out of the New Visions group and others. Uh, they were sitting principals or recently retired principals who said, we, we, we think this is really important stuff that you're doing. And then, even though we hadn't totally defined what that stuff was yet, and with these principles, uh, we were able to really pick the brain of what principals needed and wanted. And that was the beginning of development of our work, which continued from 2004 all the way through until the present and only got stronger as we went along.
Dr. Robin Stern: I'm so proud that we also developed a training program for coaches because we knew that just coaching the people and new visions wasn't going to be enough. And having their brain power, uh, along with our ideas about what it could look like to not only develop this coaching model, but also develop a training for the coaching model was really just, um, inspired at that time.
Dr. Janet Patti: It, it was, and it, uh, it, interestingly enough, I remember, I'm thinking of one of the early on trainings, uh, to be coaches that we did, which was a group when, uh, Carmen Farini was Deputy Chancellor in New York City schools. And there was something that she called, uh, local instructional superintendents, and she decided that she wanted theses as they were called to be the, I don't know how she even knew of our work originally. I'm trying to
Dr. Robin Stern: Probably,
Dr. Janet Patti: Yeah. Well, I don't even know if, well, maybe, I'm not sure. But Dolores was in that first group, Dolores Esposito, who did so much to bring this work into the city. And so was under Carmen that we did the first training with those local instructional superintendents. And the interesting thing was, I mean, we, we did a lot with them, and they were blown away by the work. We didn't even know the impact our work would have. But the combination of education and psychology was the, was the, was the thing I think that was made it so remarkable because educators were not used to the psychological focus. And it's not that we were doing anything therapeutic, so to speak, uh, or therapy. Uh, which we have certainly told our people not to use that word. 'cause that's not what we do, but well
Dr. Robin Stern: Help a lot of people feel better.
Dr. Janet Patti: It does make a lot of, and I think that was the key. I mean, in fact, Dolores, if you remember her saying in many of our trainings, that if it weren't for that work, she would never have made it through her superintendency in the way that she was able to do it.
Dr. Robin Stern: The combination of teaching the, um, the skills and the concepts that we knew people needed to know when they were in leadership positions and creating that holding environment Yes. And relationship of trust where people got to tell their story and retell their story and really unpack why they were doing the work they were doing and where they wanted to go to cast a vision, which is something that we learned from Richard
Dr. Janet Patti: I think when, what's coming to me, I'm gonna share it 'cause it's, it's right on the tip of my tongue now, is when you said the word vision. And I could also remember we had lots of discussions around, um, if we want people to vision, do we have them start with their real self, who they are now and who they want to be? Or do we reverse it? And do we then have them do the ideal state dream, what's possible, and then come back and make that gap filled and that, and then we, and Fi and you kept pushing for the other. And many of the coaches I could remember like hearing someone say, no, no, you know, it's the other way around. But the reality is, is we now know that it's about bringing the parasympathetic brain part of the brain into the nervous system, into our, uh, being into, instead of the sympathetic, which is when we're always living under stress, when that amygdala runs the game. And so when we get people through mindfulness or meditation or reflection, or taking the rollercoaster through life as we, you often do with them, it's through that process that in fact, people begin to say, aha, we can achieve the impossible. It can be possible. I'm gonna do X, Y, or Z. And that gives them the impetus to go through the process of change and to change the behaviors that get in the way.
Dr. Robin Stern: I remember, um, one part of the visioning when, and many of our readers may, um, may have had the opportunity to do something like this, but, um, encouraging our participants or coachees or coaches in training co and coachees to draw their vision
Dr. Janet Patti: Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thing that, uh, was a battle we won with ourselves, like struggling with, are people gonna draw? They're not gonna draw. They're gonna think it's kindergarten, they're not
Dr. Janet Patti:
Dr. Robin Stern: And some people did think it's kindergarten, and some people didn't like to draw initially. And, and that was fine, that they made stick figures and other people wrote words. But people really got into it. And I can remember sitting and watching people during the training, not over their shoulder, but just the group of people spending a really long time, deeply felt time as they reported on creating their vision and coloring it in, and, and putting the details of where they wanna live and who they wanna live with in five years time, or, um, what they wanna be doing. And, uh, and oftentimes getting a chuckle out of the fact that they're no longer working for the Board of Ed in five years in their vision
Dr. Janet Patti: Know, right?
Dr. Robin Stern: But, um, those were powerful moments for a lot of people to stop and really consider where they are in their life now and where they wanna be. Absolutely. And consider how, how their skills, their competencies can get them there,
Dr. Janet Patti: You know, that, that is so important. And, um, because in our field, and certainly in the education field, and in life in general, the creative side, unless you're in the creative profession, so to speak, it takes second place to cognitive, uh, abilities. Uh, and so it gave them a chance to get out of the norm and to do something a little bit uncomfortable perhaps, but then to take them places they never thought they'd be able to go. And that continues to this day to be a very strong part of our model. Uh, we start with early on with the vision, and then we look at values.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. I I'd love to shift us now to talking about the school community and the influence of leaders on schools, because certainly from my background as, as a psychoanalyst and as a therapist, I focus on the individual. And in our, uh, in our coaching, we focus on the individual. Yes. But in a lot of the work that you've done as a professor of education, you also have the per the view of, or you hold the view of what's going on in the school from the perspective of the leader. I don't know if I'm saying it in a way that makes sense, but I'd love for you to talk about that, because it wasn't until I met you, and also at the same time, watched my kids growing up in elementary school and then in junior high school, high school, et cetera, that I realized that the leaders, not only the leaders in the classroom set the tone, but the leaders in the building set the tone and you educate leaders to, uh, to behave in certain ways, to hold certain mindsets, to develop certain competencies, and to engage in certain behaviors to ensure, ensure that they are skillfully holding that building.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can you talk about that, please?
Dr. Janet Patti: Sure. I, you know, it's, it's interesting because I had read all the books, uh, also as an educator and taken the courses. And it wasn't until I actually was standing in the shoes as an educator at the time, I was assistant principal, if you remember, I was in California, and that was before we, we, we got together as a partners and friends. And so what I learned in that first job was how difficult it was, in fact to create change in areas no matter what, whether it was a mathematics program or a reading program. But even more importantly, it was about bringing in things like conflict resolution, taking a look at biases, things that were really hard, uh, areas for, uh, teachers to look at and nevermind young people to look at. And then I began to say, wow, if the teachers aren't shifting their thinking and the culture isn't supporting this kind of teaching, and even though it was administrators, principals, and assistant principals, we believed it was wonderful to do and important for young people's lives.
Dr. Janet Patti: It wasn't happening. And so I began to really look at culture and climate of a school culture being the norms, the traditions, the the values that we hold over time. That's, that's what makes us, us, and the climate, the outward expression of that culture. And so having those two as our guiding point in our work, we knew that it wasn't just about changing the individual, but in fact, the leader had to be the one in charge, had to be the one leading the change without that individual very important powerful position. And then others sharing the vision of that leader, creating a culture that, uh, that really fed into that vision, a culture that believed, that found purpose in that vision, nothing was going to change, and it wasn't easy. In fact, as a result of that, I could remember saying, wow, you could teach young people anything, and they will take it in the good and the bad of that.
Dr. Janet Patti: Right? But in, in our case, it was the good of trying to promote with, with then not called social emotional learning, but in fact was, but that, uh, in fact, without having the culture on board, without a culture that supported that, none of that was gonna happen. Kids could learn in individual classrooms if a teacher were teaching anything in particular, but kids, but the school would not project that philosophy, those values, those core values. And that is why we went in the direction that we did, because it's about a system, Robin. And remember, we started talking about systems in our work, and, you know, and, and we spent a lot of time look talking with our principals about that. Um, we read, uh, Peter Senge's work, the Fifth Discipline. We brought that into our work, and we did a lot of research to get to that point to say, Hey, this is where we have to go.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Important to remember all of that. And I, I think, um, it's an interesting, I'm gonna use this as an interesting segue to talk about gaslighting, because Uhhuh
Dr. Janet Patti: Yeah, absolutely. And,
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, that environment where those things can happen with psychological safety and trust and compassion is an environment that doesn't tolerate except abide gaslighting.
Dr. Janet Patti: You know, it's, it's interesting that you say that. Please, um, finish your thought. Go ahead.
Dr. Janet Patti: I, I, you know, first of all, the first thing we always tell people, and I, for years, when I would get aspiring leaders into my classes at Hunter, I would say to them, if you can't look into the mirror and see that person in front of you as the model and the embodiment of all that you hope to do to make that school a safe place for young people to learn in, then turn around and go and get a degree in something else. Because that's, it is about who we are as human beings, first and foremost, our personal selves walk into that school door, through that school door, along with our professional selves. We may choose to show one side of ourselves or another, but we have that option to do that. And that option, if it's powered by emotional intelligence, is gonna make a very big difference as opposed to something that is not, we know from all the work that's been done in the field, that while intellect is critical to all kinds of learning and all kinds of success, without emotional intelligence, people just aren't as successful no matter how bright you are.
Dr. Janet Patti: If you can't have relationships with people, if you can't build relationship, if you don't think about what others might be thinking, as well as be aware of your own feelings, uh, then what's gonna happen in terms of how people see you as to what your leadership is.
Dr. Robin Stern: So, yeah, uh, you're absolutely right. And a lot of being able to resist gaslighting, um, both resist engaging in it also resist being gaslighted has to do with integrity, has to do with being able to look in the mirror and say, I am who I am, and I know who I am, and nobody's gonna tell me who I am, and I'm gonna act in accordance with my values. But I, I wanna take a, maybe a pivot from that for a moment, and remembering that when I wrote my book for the first time in 2007, or the first edition, I, and I was talking about living in a guest like culture, one of the things that I remember saying was that, um, in schools, my kids, I guess were, um, 2007, so I can't do the math right this minute, but I think, um, they were, we were all talking about colleges eventually, right? And, um, I remember going to these assemblies in school early on, and when my kids were in junior high school, where the, the leaders of the school or the counselors would say things like, don't focus so much on the grades. It's going to be important where, um, your child feels like it's a good fit, and you're over focusing on grades. Grades are not that important. And everybody in the audience knew that was just not true. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Because then the next communication to the child would be, you know, if you get a B in that class, you can forget about the University of Pennsylvania or wherever that child wants it to go. Um, or if you get a c maybe University of Pennsylvania will accept a B. But, um, but I do remember feeling like there were messages that were being told to parents, um, that were about the education and what to focus on with kids that we all knew were not true. And so we would then second guess ourselves. Well, I mean, I was riding gaslight, so I was
Dr. Janet Patti: There are, uh, too many. Um, and I, I think, and I'm glad that you brought this up because, you know, speaking from the parents' point of view, which is so critical in education, oh my gosh, there's, so everybody, everybody thinks they know education because they've been to school
Dr. Janet Patti: They come across from teachers and to parents, from teachers to kids, to parents, from school leaders, just teachers and from above school leaders, the principals, assistant principals, there's your superintendents. And if it's an urban environment, you have people like the mayor, right, who are ultimately in charge of schools. So those messages come down under different political movements, different political philosophies. They are subject to who the power structure is at the time. And so consequently, gaslighting, uh, yeah, comes across by different messages at different times to different people, uh, and to whom it is targeted to be an audience that's going to support the, the powers that be. And I, you know, it's just the reality. So schools are subject to this bureaucracy of, uh, thinking, uh, uh, of leading. And that unfortunately, you spoke about integrity. Well, you know, it's not always there, that integrity.
Dr. Janet Patti: I, I would say that the mass number of teachers and leaders and that go into this have a vocation for it to be, uh, stand in a classroom with young people all day long, no matter if they're itty bitties. In fact, the itty bitties are harder to teach than the, than the, the high school and college kids. Um, so that dedication is, is huge. And so, you know, that's what we wanna build on, not on the you need to do this when you need to do it, when we don't even know if the parties that are creating those particular demands are the right parties with the right intentions. So that's where it happens, if I'm making any sense.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about other messages that I've heard through the years, and one of the things, um, I remember this poem, I can't think of the poet, um, but you're Linda, Michelle Baron.
Dr. Janet Patti: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Who a colleague and friend of both Janet, myself and Linda Lantieri, who was introduced us to her. And I remember Linda, I remember Linda Michelle reading a poem that she had written, uh, about a child in the back of the room, um, who was seemingly unable to learn and how, uh, I think she used the analogy, if you wanted to reach somebody on the telephone, you'd just keep calling and calling and calling until you could get them.
Dr. Janet Patti: Oh, I remember that. Very
Dr. Robin Stern: Powerful. And when you have a child in the back of the room who does not seem to be learning or does not seem to be hearing, you just keep at it, at it, at it, um, until you can reach them. And I remember really struck by that, because many people, um, in many parent meetings, it's the child, the teacher points the finger at the child for not being alert. And, um, it really made me think that, wait a minute, you know, it's, it really isn't the child. Sometimes of course, it's the child because the child is really not interested, really not making themselves available. But even then, as a teacher, it's your job to keep calling and calling and calling until you get through. And so I, I really think that that is a, a message that is important to, to keep, to keep on, that it's not the child's fault if the child is learning.
Dr. Janet Patti: That is so powerful, Robin. It is so important. I mean, honestly, I could think back to my own days in school, and I'm sure many people who are listening to this podcast too, I can think of the teachers who put me down in front of the class. I could think of those horrible moments when I believed I was just not smart enough. So, yeah, I mean, they would verbally say things and that's, wait, that's gaslighting a hundred percent. And it still goes on in many places that we don't know behind closed doors. And it isn't just the teachers, it comes from many different, different people at different levels of the hierarchy. So we have a lot of work to do. You need to keep writing those books on this and holding those workshops on gaslighting.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. And I, I do think it would be interesting for us to spend some time thinking about, are there pervasive messages that are being, um, that are gaslighting messages that we're being forced to, to adopt In, in, uh, there are places where, um, people are telling a story of history that is, other than the way history actually happened, and even just by leaving things out of a story, you're rewriting the story,
Dr. Janet Patti: And then it clashes with values, it clashes with people's values. And it's, it's really, it's, it's a dilemma.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, it's a dilemma, and it's gaslighting and it's wrong. Um, and gaslighting in the sense that if you start to, when something is written and you start to read it, and it's in a textbook, then you begin to wonder, well, you know, is this the way it happened? Guess it is. Maybe I'm wrong about what I knew or what I thought, or what somebody told me for
Dr. Janet Patti: So many years that, that that's been the way, and so many textbooks have been wrong and have been questioned, and many haven't. They're still out there.
Dr. Robin Stern: And of course, there are the teachers who, um, are the only people in the children's, in some children's lives who believe in them. And, you know, we know from abundant research that children only need one person, one adult in their life who believes in them. And often too often at home, children don't have that person who is their, um, go-to person, don't have that person who cares about their feelings, asks about their feelings, makes them feel safe, or helps 'em feel safe. And teachers become so important in the lives and can turn the lives of many kids around. So absolutely, I wanna be sure that we say that. And many of those teachers who do that kind of compassionate, uh, work where they see and hear the children in front of them, and they listen in, in an engaged way, and they don't judge and they're caring, um, are teachers who have spent time on their own inner life, teachers who are emotionally intelligent
Dr. Janet Patti: Exactly.
Dr. Robin Stern: And create tho and can create those safe spaces.
Dr. Janet Patti: Which is why if we go full circle, we started this work in the first place because we, we knew that those were the kinds of people we wanted to have in the classroom. Those are the kind of people we want running our schools. And, you know, as we say, they're the same person walks in that school. They're personal and professional. And if that personal work has not been done,
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah,
Dr. Janet Patti: It's left a chance.
Dr. Robin Stern: And I, I'm thinking about, um, some of the people we interviewed in the book and how they use their, their intuition and their awareness of what they needed and their recognition of what their teachers needed, particularly during Covid to, um, to shift and to change their, the daily course of school like Dr. Brooke, like Brooke Jackson, who is our close colleague and wonderful leader of the upper lab school in Manhattan. Getting people together at the beginning of every day and the end of every day just to check in with themselves. It was something she needed for herself. She recognized that checking in for herself with other people was really important and really nourishing and really, um, elevating and, um, or dawn who talked about the need for those, those kind of social relationships that people who care about you with whom you can share, and how at the leadership level that's hard to come by and appreciating it and nurturing it. And who else does, do you think about when you think about people who understand themselves and their needs and the people around them?
Dr. Janet Patti: Well, I just think about many of the folks that we've had the pleasure of working with. I think of, um, Isabel, uh, superintendent that we worked with, um, in district in, in Brooklyn. And she has been a firm believer in the work in emotional intelligence. Uh, and every chance she has, she sends her people through some kind of emotional intelligence training, whether it be at Yale, whether it be through us or even something else that's out there. But her commitment to be assuring that all of her leaders and her teachers are doing this kind of work with children is, is 103 hundred 60 plus more
Dr. Janet Patti: That those, those principles are very isolated and hungry to have relationships with that are safe for them to be with others who believe in the same way that they know is right for children. So our, our work and the work in emotional intelligence and the awareness of what's happening in terms of gaslighting has been really critical for nurturing the wellbeing of those principles. And they, you know, we now see them choosing activities for themselves because they, that are gonna help their wellbeing because so many of them would honestly get sick, gain weight, um, wind up, um, overly stressed, uh, needing medication, all because of the inability to be their true selves, their inability to express their voice. And that is gaslighting.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And one of the things that happens in an environment when there's gaslighting or a fear of gaslighting, yes, from leadership or the, the, um, people, the school board or the people of politicians, is that people don't wanna be the naysayers, right? Not only are they afraid to say they don't agree with something, but they're also can be afraid to create, be creative, and to innovative, because they really don't wanna take the risk of being in an unsafe psychological space and have somebody gaslight them, tell them there's something wrong with them or something ridiculous about their idea.
Dr. Janet Patti: You know, as we're talking, I'm saying this has to be the next book,
Dr. Robin Stern: And our schools are only as psychologically safe as the leader ensures they are through skillful management of faculty and of staff through regulation on her own part or his own part or their own part. And co-regulation, the leader who can be there for other people, with other people, as well as a role model for other people in skillfully leading a school.
Dr. Janet Patti: That that whole concept that we, we teach all the time about mirror neurons and how, you know, this principal's walking down the hallway and he has a smirk on his face, and he looks at you with a smirk, and it's not meant for you at all. But if you see that smirk and it's looking, he's looking in your direction, or she, you believe that you did something wrong and that could never be spoken, and you walk around thinking this, those small pieces like that are so critical for people in charge and empowered to realize that they have that ability, um, to, to, and that impact on people.
Dr. Robin Stern: The other thing I wanna say, um, just building on what you said just a few minutes ago, and then we're gonna have to wrap up in a few minutes, but, um, when you are living every day in education as, as in other service professions like nursing or medicine, uh, and you have to be at a distance oftentimes from your feelings, like you feel stressed out because there's some crisis in the community, but you need to put on a happy face because you are the parents of the student body and you don't wanna leak your own anxiety, or you are worried about something going on at home, but you have to teach a lesson. And so you wanna put a smile on your face and that distance between what you, what you put out there on your face and how you act and what you say, and your emotional life, the true emotional life on the inside.
Dr. Robin Stern: So that is called emotion labor. And when you're in, when you have emotion labor, when you're living emotional labor or emotional labor every single day, it's very destabilizing because you become exhausted and you can become alienated from your own work and you become depleted. And when you are all those things, it's hard to maintain your stability. It's hard to really think clearly. It's hard to, to gather your thoughts and have your own mind stay firm inside. And so that's fertile ground for gas lighting, because if you're already unsure, if you're already exhausted and somebody tells you something that you end up thinking, could that be true? I didn't think it was true, but you know what, maybe they're right because you're too tired to think it through when you don't have the intellectual emotional wherewithal because of all the emotional labor.
Dr. Janet Patti: Absolutely. And, and understanding that people process it different ways at different times. And you know, I think some of the, some of the bosses, so to speak, who are the kind that kind of dominate and just talk over and don't give you a moment to have a word in edgewise, and they, they're out there that, you know, that's, that's totally gaslighting to people and, uh, and, and does not allow them to be who they are on the job
Dr. Robin Stern: Or take credit for someone else's idea. Oh,
Dr. Janet Patti: There you go. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. But I do wanna leave on a positive note because please let's
Dr. Janet Patti: Very important. And so glad that you had me spend a little time with you. We got to talk about this book and why we did this and the, that it has in the work that we do.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much, Janet. And, um, everyone, this is Dr. Janet Patty. Janet, please tell people where they can find you.
Dr. Janet Patti: Oh, yes. Well, IA could be found at patty@starfactorcoaching.com. That's the best place to reach me. And, uh, I look, look forward to hearing from you with any questions or comments you'd like to make.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you very much for tuning in today and for listening to my conversation with my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Janet Patty, a uh, long time and esteemed educator of practice and educational leadership at Hunter College Professor Emeritus. Thank you, Janet.
Dr. Janet Patti: Thank you, Robin.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lenz, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Esteve and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
Speaker 3: I.
Listen On
robin.stern@yale.edu
