Podcast Player
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really honored today to have with me Dr. Christine Cocchiola. And Christine, I'm gonna ask you to tell a little bit about yourself, but, um, or actually quite a bit about yourself, but not before I say, um, how moving it is to know that you have been through a very difficult personal experience and yet have turned that all around to help other people and to be sure that other people never have to experience what you've experienced. And so thank you for your important work in the world, and thank you for writing a really fantastic book framed that is coming out very soon.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yes, thank, thank you, Robin. I can't even tell you, your book was one of the first books that I read when I was beginning to really see clearly what was going on in my life, as is your podcast. So I feel like this whole world of coercive control, which is my area of expertise, is about someone constantly gaslighting you over and over again. And I actually have been doing this work since the age of 19. I was a domestic abuse, sexual assault crisis counselor at the age of 19, worked in child welfare, have been teaching social work for over 20 years on the college level, every single semester, teaching on the power and control wheel, and had no idea that I was experiencing it in my own personal life. Um, I met my abuser when I was young, and, uh, we fell in love. And all of the love bombing things we hear about narcissistic abuse, all of those things occurred.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: But I think that, um, my abuser in particular was very covert and able to really give me and the world a view of him that left me in a state of confusion very consistently for a long period of time. And then of course, I had two beautiful children and who wants to disrupt their marriage. And as you probably know, when we attempt to escape these relationships, the course of control and over 90% of cases intensifies and gets worse. And so every time I would try to leave, I'd be pulled back in because that felt safer. And, uh, I am, I had the honor of having Dr. Evan Stark, who, as you know, is right from, was right from Woodbridge, Connecticut and started his work in New Haven, Connecticut. Uh, he was on my doctoral work, uh, for my Candice candidacy, and I worked under his tutelage and just really kind of always been doing this work.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: But then all of a sudden this word course of control became a more prevalent term. And I realized that every single thing that every victim experiences, in my opinion, any form of abuse, almost every form of abuse. I mean, there's some people who have maladaptive coping and you know, they may have anger issues and they work on it and they get better and they get healthy. But overall, if there is a pattern of behavior where I even like, say racism and classism and, you know, child sexual abuse, I mean, these grooming tactics of abusers are identical and that it's all coercive control. It's the underpinning of all abuse. And that if we begin to look through the course of control lens, I think what it helps us to do is pivot more to the perpetrator. So rather than blaming victims and gaslighting victims over and over again, we begin to say, wait a minute.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: There's a pattern of behavior. This person has done this, this, and this throughout the relationship. Even if she behaved poorly in one or two instances, why did she behave poorly? And I'll just end on this, my little intro here. I was one of 10 people on amber, her's amicus brief for her appeal, because I truly saw, again, and I was very vocal about the fact that regardless of how she may have or may have not, it appeared a lot of things we know now were not even true. Society was gaslit, right.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, thank you for that. Um, for your intro. I, I have a question about how you got involved in working with this, with people going through these struggles before you, yourself were even in that kind of relationship. What, what called you to that? What drew you to that?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. Someone very dear to me was sexually abused as a child. And I just couldn't, I was so irate when I found out I just couldn't believe that these atrocities actually happened in the world. And I became hyper-focused on ending child sexual abuse. I had the lofty goals, right? Oh, I'm gonna end it. It's not gonna happen anymore,
Dr. Robin Stern: And why is that? Do you think they're gaslighting the world?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: I think that the people who are typically harming the harmers of our world, who I believe work very intentionally to harm are people in positions of power. And that is historically, sadly, men and white men. And that doesn't mean that, of course, all men are horrible. That's not true. It doesn't mean that women don't align with patriarchal norms and line right up. I mean, you know, this, this recent book that's gonna be coming out, it's about family court. There are family court judges that are women that line right up with patriarchal norms and oppressed woman over and over again. It's people in positions of power who believe in a hierarchy in society, which is really very problematic because then they get away with it. I mean, we could talk about people like Epstein and, you know, I mean, there's just so many people who have done horrifying things and gotten away with it
Dr. Robin Stern: And continue to, and many people power continue to. Yeah. So what do you think it is about, um, that, that power that really is interesting to you in particular?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah, I think that in general, the world does, I think you said this right? The world does gaslight women into believing that they are bad or problematic or that they're unstable if they express how they really feel. And you know, I can tell you that in my own personal experience, I was gaslit, you know, by the police. You know, I, I was certainly, um, you know, would call the police and then, you know, they would align with more, with the abuser. They wouldn't necessarily take, and I see this over and over again with all of my clients, where victims are not heard, where they're dismissed, where they're diminished. And the reality, their reality becomes slanted. Like, maybe I, maybe I need to talk more quietly. Maybe I need to tolerate more beha, you know, these behaviors. I mean, I had police officers, my ex locked me out of our family home and I had police officers tell me they would help me get back into the home. And then I had police officers tell me that they never told me they'd help me get back into the home. And so, I mean, that's just like a tiny, tiny example of like, wait a minute, am I misremembering? Did something different happen? Or is it simply because they align with the person who has more power? And women in general just don't hold the power in society? Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's really incredible. That's an incredible, as you said, tiny, tiny thing that had a huge impact, obviously. Yes.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: And
Dr. Robin Stern: Those tiny moments accumulate over time when the person in power is constantly trying to undermine you and is in a position of being that perpetrator and coercive control. And you, you do begin to second guess yourself. It's almost impossible not to because we are, we we're always trying to make meaning out of what's happening. And if somebody around us is somebody who's in power is telling us this is the way it is, and no, that's not the way it is, especially as women, aren't we gonna be just accommodating again and think, well, maybe they're right.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. And, and so I love to, so you probably know that my particular niche is children and protective parents, and how do you parent children who are growing up in these family circumstances? And I created a program, specifically therapeutically attachment based program to help protective parents fortify their attachment with their children. Because these abusers spend, I say they start day one, mine certainly did, where they gaslight the children over and over and over again into having this false narrative about one parent over the other, you call it the good guy gas leader. You know, the
Dr. Robin Stern: Like he's a good guy. He just, that thing.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Exactly, exactly. My ex used to tell my children, um, that, you know, if mom would just go on her medication, then everything would be okay. And I just wish she would go on her medication and, you know, I didn't learn that. So he had started indoctrinating them into this false narrative, gaslighting them the moment I caught him cheating on me. And of course I was the cheater. It's the dvo effect, right? I was the cheater. I was, you know, untrustworthy. I should be on my medication. I was making up stories. And, and so just knowing what that does to a developing brain, right? The be I think one of your episodes recently was on betrayal trauma, like how betrayed these children feel. So I call it for protective parents. What I would do is in that home, try really hard to ensure my children didn't feel the pain, right? But I was, but I was gaslighting them. I wasn't allowing them to feel what was really going on. And so for protective parents, I call it a disintegration of intuition. We're not gaslighting 'cause that has malicious intent, but we are disintegrating, literally taking apart their intuition so that they don't know what's real anymore. And then we wonder why when we finally escape that relationship, why they don't know what the truth is.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can you say that again? Can you just really unpack that? That's so important.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Thank you. Thank you. So I came up with this, these words, I call it disintegrated intuition. And what it is, is it's when we as protective parents attempt to protect our children from the harm that's going on in the family system, for all intents and purposes, it's gaslighting them. But, but our intent isn't malicious. And what we do, and I, I guess I use the example of remember when you were really little, and maybe this didn't happen to you, but your mom would say, oh, go over and sit on Uncle John's lap. He loves you. Go give him a hug. And you really didn't want to, and your mother wasn't trying to gaslight you, but she was teaching you to disintegrate your intuition to not integrate it into your body. This is about somatic experiencing, right?
Dr. Robin Stern: Right, exactly. So you have your feelings, but you don't honor them. You may notice them, but without that honoring them, then you become that robot in the moment. And you
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Exactly. And then if you do it over and over and over again in the family system where maybe there's an argument and you're like, oh, dad, and I just had an argument when actually he called you a horrible name and you didn't want the children to hear that. Now, I'm not suggesting we expose our children to all of these harmful things, but the reality is, is that if we don't let them feel that pain, how will they ever know who the abuser is? How will they ever have clarity? And people say, well, why would you want your child to know who an abuser is? Because we all, if that person were a stranger, then we would protect them. But because it's their parent, we're, you know, so it's, it's a tricky, it's a fine line because you can't mention this in family court. You certainly can't call someone an abuser in family court. You have to act like you're, you're being gaslit by the court. You have to collaborate with the abuser. But in general, as protective parents in that home, we can certainly call out poor behaviors rather than saying, oh, it's nothing. Dad's just tired, or dad's just angry with me because, you know, I made a mistake. Like, we take responsibility, we accommodate, we keep on trying.
Dr. Robin Stern: We don't want to make them uncomfortable, but actually it's us, the parents who are uncomfortable, we can't deal with it. Right. And so training program must be really, um, transformative for people because you tell us, tell us about your trans, uh, about this program. I love the term, say it again.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Disintegrated intuition.
Dr. Robin Stern: Disintegrated intuition. Yeah.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. We, we disintegrate their intuition. So it's a bodily experience, but it's also a mind experience in
Dr. Robin Stern: The service of making them happier in the service of not outing the other parent in the service of what we think is wellbeing.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Right? And then again, fast forward 10 years and we wonder why they don't understand what really happened to them. And so it's so important to give them critical thinking skills, right? I mean, um, I'm trying to put together an article right now gaslighting by therapists, because this is what happens so often is therapists are constantly, you know, you go to therapy and the therapist, you know, tells one person in some way to accommodate another person versus saying, let's look at the foundation of this relationship. There's one person exerting power and control over another,
Dr. Robin Stern: Saying that you say that. And if you'd like to talk more about the article, I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Um, the, uh, it's, it's a great topic. When I was first studying gaslighting and seeing it in my practice rampantly, I began to do some reading. And the early reading that I did had to do with therapist gaslighting their patients where patients would come into therapy and say, you know, I feel like I'm finished now, and I I really appreciate it, thank you very much. And the therapist would say, you're not finished. And the patient would then say, um, just making this up in retrospective memory. But, um, it was, it was like that where the patient was saying, I, I feel this. And the therapist was saying, I'm the expert. Like, we've been working on these issues. Um, you may not remember, but there's so much more to do. And, and I'm telling you, I think it's important for you not to leave. And these, these were British journals, which is kind of interesting that that's where it appeared first. But since the movie was of course, a British movie,
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Interesting. Yeah, no, I mean, and it does, it happens a lot. And then children are often forced into repair therapy with their abuser, and they have to actually, like, they get gaslit by the therapist that, oh, your dad really loves you, or Of course your dad didn't mean to abuse your mother. And the reality is, is that what we know about, and, and Dr. Ramini and, and I recently spoke in Dubai on at two mental health conferences, and, and she and I agree, like not all narcissists are coercive controllers, but all coercive controllers ha are narcissistic abusers. And to sit there with a child who witnessed maybe a mother being pushed, I mean, it's, this is the other issue, I'm gonna, sorry to be tangent genital here, but like literally coercive control is we have to look beyond the violent incident model. And the problem with me when I was teaching this every single semester in my college classes is that I was always thinking about abuse from the violent incident model. And the reality is, is that that's not the first tactic. The first tactic is the psychological that you always teach about, right? And so just because someone didn't push me down the stairs doesn't mean I didn't suffer abuse. Yet children are being forced into therapy with their physically violent perpetrating parent and being told that they have to reconnect. And if they don't, that's what our book is about. Mothers actually lose custody. I mean, mothers lose custody at a very high rate if they do not collaborate. It's, it's just mind blowing. So
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Through that, because that sounds terrifying. And so, um, and immoral and horrendous actually. So a couple comes into court and the mother is fighting for custody, or the father is fighting for custody and there's a mediator, and the mediator says, what happened? And then they tell their story and the mediator gaslights and says something like what you just said, um, oh, your father, I'm sure he didn't mean it. Like I'm sure that he really loves you. I'm sure that that's the case, right? Yeah. And then doesn't go along with it. Then she loses custody. Why would she lose custody? I don't understand that last piece of it.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. So what happens is there's a research study that came out, there's quite a few, but basically there again, this hierarchy in family court that, that women often lie about abuse that, uh, that children were okay if there was abuse in the relationship between the parents, that that doesn't impact the children, which is totally a farce, as you know. And so, so what happens is that if I go to court and I express that I have been a victim of abuse, this one particular research study that came out in 2019 by Joan Maier, um, I am disbelieved at a rate of 55%. If I say that my children were physically abused by the abusive partner, I am disbelieved at a rate of 63% of the time. And if I say my children were sexually abused, I am disbelieved at a rate of 85% of the time.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: These are astonishing statistics. So mothers are learning that if they go to court and say they've been a victim, they're not gonna be believed anyway. And what, what fathers have historically been, and this is a, a gender depression conversation, so of course it can happen both ways. And this research was specific to mothers, but the idea is, is that you can actually say that you've been alienated. So if a mother says, I'm a victim, or my children are victims as an abuser, I can say she's alienating me. And then what courts do is they flip custody four times greater chance of losing custody if you go into court and say these things. So that's why the book is called Framed, because basically she gets framed for what he did. It's the dvo tactic, like I'm, you know, like really significantly. And so what I do in my work is I coach protective parents how to navigate that.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Because what we have found over and over again is that, unfortunately, I don't know how familiar you are with the system, but guardian ad litems and custody evaluators get known in the system as being, I'll call it unbiased. Their bias is not to protect children, their bias. Not everyone, but most people, if you're in the system, you're making a good, you're making a good salary, and you're working here, and the way to keep yourself in the system with judges accepting you and lawyers like saying yes, I will take on that guardian ad litem for this case is that you typically go for 50 50 regardless of the circumstances.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. Can you, uh, explain for our listening audience, both the dvo tactic and guardian Gar? Say it again.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Guardian, guardian ad litems. So every state has people that work, work within the system, in the family court system, guardian ad litems, forensic evaluators, custody evaluators, some people, there's minors counsel, you can be a social worker. As a matter of fact, I have a training program where I'm training any clinicians to be course of controlled, trauma informed so that we can actually get really good people working in the system. So you can be a social worker doing this work, or you may need to be an attorney depending on the state, but what your job is, is determine the child's safety. So, you know, why would one parent want more custodial time than another? Let's determine what's the best interest of the children. And like I said, sadly, even if there's been abuse, oftentimes not all of these people, but oftentimes they are just going for 50 50 because again, that's what keeps your employment, that's what keeps you likable by the system.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: And so you could imagine a protective parent who, maybe I have one client, uh, uh, you know, her daughter saw her thrown down the stairs, and this father is now saying, because the child doesn't wanna go with father, the child's afraid, reasonable. And this father is now saying the mother's an alienator and that, and now they're doing a custody evaluation. And the question is, is if a child doesn't wanna go and they have fear, and they witnessed, now this is a violent incident model, right? If they witness violence and they're still gonna be forced to go to, and they're, this child is being forced to repair therapy, to sit in the same room with the man she saw, throw her mother down the stairs. I mean, this is the most egregious thing. I, I can't even, it's so frustrating. That's why about eight months ago, I reached out to a colleague and I said, listen, we need to get these stories.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: There's 22 mother stories in here. I said, would you be willing to collaborate with me on this, because we need to get this book out. And thankfully, Amy Palacco said Yes. So, yeah. And so that's guardian ad litem. And you asked me, um, oh, DVO, the, so Jennifer Fried came up with this term in 1997. I'm sure you're aware. What I find most amazing about Jennifer's term, dvo, that a lot of people don't know the history behind, and I'm sure you do, but I'd love to share with your listeners, is it was originally based on her research with children of sexual abuse. And so her work was on, when children come forward and disclose sexual abuse, they are not believed. And when they are considered the whistleblower, the abuser denies it attacks and reverses victim and offender either to their protective parent who was the whistleblower or to the child. And over and over again, what were children doing? They were being silenced in her research. So,
Dr. Robin Stern: So for example, when you say they, they turned it, they turned the perpetrator, the victim into the perpetrator. Can you give us an example?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Sure. So, no, that child actually came on to me, or I never touched that child. That child's a liar. They're making up the story. They lie all the time. Or that mother, the reason why she's saying I sexually abused her child is because she actually hates me or she doesn't want me to have custody. So, um, and you know, I, I know, you know, as you're, I know you're a therapist and you understand, but I mean, one in three children will be sex, girls will be sexually abused before the age of 18, and one in six boys. You have to wonder, you just really have to wonder how many of them, um, are experiencing this dvo impact and are not able to speak up. Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I have a question about that, about the impact, the psychological impact of, um, some of these interactions with, uh, people from court sitting down with kids. So I'm imagining a scenario where I worked with a client years ago where the kid was in the middle of a very difficult divorce. And, and, um, there were two kids, but one in particular, this young girl was thinking, well, I don't, I don't know what's real because my mother would never lie to me, and my father would never lie to me. And so somebody's lying and, and how do I know what's real? And in the situation where the person who's doing the facilitation or the mediation says, well, I'm sure they didn't mean it, then maybe when your dad said that or your mom said that. So maybe the kid walks out and feels a little bit better, but it's not true and there's still no reality.
Dr. Robin Stern: Or on the other hand where there is, um, a confirmation that, well, wait. Now that was a lie, actually what your dad said, or your mom said, whoever was, according to the facilitator, a real, the really the person not telling the truth. Then the kid walks out and thinks, oh my God, my dad is a liar, or my dad is an abuser. What is set up then in the courts to help the kid? So you send that child home, and then maybe the child on this next visitation is dealing with that father who didn't get what he wanted as a result of that court interaction. So what, where, what does the child do with their anxiety and fear and disappointment and, and grief?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: That's, that's the million dollar question that truly is. And that's where, um, I'm trying so hard to infiltrate, like let the system understand that when children are experiencing these issues in their family system, and then courts are making decisions, forcing them with time with one person, even if, even if the child has been gaslit their whole life to believe that mom is an abuser,
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: If we force that child with that mom, that is coercive control of the child, and that isn't helpful, that only retraumatizes them. And so really what we need is clinicians to be working with children on critical thinking skills and understanding healthy versus unhealthy relation. DY dynamics. I tell all of my clients, teach your children what gaslighting is. Teach your children what manipulation is. Have conversations about boundaries. These are the specific conversations to have. So the issue is that, that the family court system does not see that it's a problem to send a child home with someone they believe is an abuser, whether it's true or not, they are sending children into these arms of these abusers. And frankly, oftentimes what I see is that it is with the abuser that these, these powerful people, um, and mostly men, men have more money. Let's talk about the moneyed parent.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Oftentimes, who has the money to hire the best, or, you know, I mean, I know this might sound a little conspiratorial, but we really believe there's complicitness in the family. There's a lot of relationship networking, nepotism going on that there are, there are things that are happening that there's no, they make no sense. Like if you have all of this information that says this is unsafe, that yet you're gonna still send a child. You know, I have a 16-year-old who spent three weeks in jail because at 14 she said to her mother, I don't wanna go visit dad anymore. I know he's an abuser. I'm not comfortable with him. I don't wanna go. Mom goes back to court. It takes two years to get through the court system. I'm glad, 'cause that made the girl 16. She went to court, they went to court. The judge flipped custody 48 hours to mom a week. The dad got the rest of the week. Now this is a 16-year-old who expressed how she felt the child refused to go. She went to jail for three weeks.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: It's happening all of the time. And so the court system is, is, um, frankly, coercively controlling institutional betrayal is occurring over and over again, and children are not safe. And if the, if these court professionals would just be willing, but I then I, I wonder like if you really cared, you'd be willing, right? If you, if you really cared, you'd be willing. So if this court system, um, would put aside the arrogance and say, what is the psychological trauma to children living in these circumstances? That's what my protective parenting program is, is about. It's about like what happened to you? But then now let's take that course of control lens and experience it through your children's experiences. How have they lived their life regulating their behavior? Why do they have a lot of anxiety, obsessive compulsive behaviors? Why do they act like they have a DHD? Maybe they have it, but also is it the trauma? And why are they aligning? So
Dr. Robin Stern: These terrible relationships with people who were abusing them and and who were engaged in coercive control?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. And sometimes it takes the children feeling the pain, the real pain, and seeing their abusive parent behave in a way that they would've never imagined in order for them to gain clarity. My children were indoctrinated since the ages of nine and 10. And it wasn't until they were 17 and 19 that they actually, I I, I had no way of controlling it anymore. The post-separation abuse, as you know, in these situation, always gets worse. And they had, they had preview and purview to what was actually happening all that time.
Dr. Robin Stern: How are your kids now?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: They are great. They are doing, they're doing really well. They are, I created the program because they were coming home to me and projecting it all onto me, and also thinking I was crazy and there's something wrong with me. And I realized really fast, really fast. I had better do something different in my house. I could not be defensive. I could not be, um, victim like, oh my gosh, he did all these horrible things. I mean, he was kicked outta my home. I left with the items in the trunk of my car. I could not like that. It could not be, I had to be in a position of personal power and be able to take on their, their, their projection. Um, but,
Dr. Robin Stern: But think about what you're saying, which is so important. And of course, your kids, of course, they're great because they lived the program. You are, you are the program for them. And, um, all you need is one good parent helping orient you to reality and, and all of that. But, um, think about like, what are these other kids doing when they're going home?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. This is, this is the heartbreaking thing, and this is why I'm trying to train clinicians because I see clinicians over and over again, gaslighting children. I, and people have to start looking at relationship dynamics. The moment people come into your office, and I know so many of us do this already, but the moment someone comes into your office, we have to begin asking, I mean, this is a social work perspective. What has been happening in that family system, right? What's been happening there that has created maybe these symptoms of A DHD? Like, what, what is going on? And if we don't ask the underlying questions and make sure and rule it out, then we're missing so much. I mean, this is 35% of women suffer violence in their lifetime. That's violence. What of all the women who are suffering nonviolent abuse and then what of all their children
Dr. Robin Stern: And how many children are being diagnosed with a DHD? 'cause they're spaced out in a classroom 'cause they're traumatized because of what's going on at home, whether it's gaslighting or worse or, so tell me what for you is the difference? Um, what, what, when does gaslighting become coercive control?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: I think gaslighting always is coercive control, always. It's always about minimizing a person. Even the crux of course of control is the desire by one person or group of people to diminish another person's agency and autonomy. That's what gaslighting is. However, course of control is even more than that, right? It's, it's also, I'm gonna intimidate you. I'm gonna threaten you, I'm gonna isolate you. I'm gonna stalk you financially, abuse you, I'm gonna legally abuse you. I'm gonna use the court system. We have research now that affirms these people. These abusers are drawn towards conflict. You give them a, you give them a family court stage and they are in heaven. I mean, this is exactly what they want. And then I'm gonna weaponize the children. How do I control you? I always say abusers when, so I have a podcast also very small one, but called Perfect Prey because I did a research study while at NYU and it was about this idea that victims and survivors truly are, I mean, relatively amazing people, givers, forgiving, like work hard, loyal and try really hard to fix things. I mean, you know, the big five personality, agreeable and conscientious, right? And so, so if we take that and we realize that some people are never their fault, but that perpetrators will choose these people because they're just more readily going to be supportive and accommodating,
Dr. Robin Stern: Accommodate.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Exactly. Right. And then from there, who is even more perfect prey a child? And so I say these abusers know day one, when the children are born, that that matters more than anything to the protective parent. And so if they can slowly use their good old boys gaslighting, you know,
Dr. Robin Stern: This is fascinating conversation and so important, so meaningful. Thank you so much for your work. Um, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about how you actually do your work. Do you reach out to therapists, the therapists find you? Um, or how do you train people? What does it look like?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Sure. So right now I have a 14 CE training approved by A SWB. And I think in other states, even if you're not a social worker, you can actually, they'll, they have like flexibility and they'll give you those CEEs. And so it's, it's 14 hours and I run it for two days. And I have clinicians, I have coaches, and I have attorneys invited. And the attorneys and the coaches come for a day and a half, and the clinicians stay for the rest of the time. Um, and so, and I'm actually doing a pzi training, um, the psychoanalytic, um, that big training that happens, um, it's a nationwide training that occurs and I'm been doing that virtually also in October. And it's a shortened version of this training that I do. But yeah, it's word of mouth, it's social media and I really would love to have it filled up because I think a lot of people will, a lot of people don't understand what's going on in the court system, in the institutional betrayal. And I think it would really help when a client comes in and they seem like they have, um, how shall I say, well, I guess maladaptive coping, they seem emotional and overwhelmed and they, you know, they always distressed and then they come into therapy and they're there with their partner and you're trying to work with them and you're wondering why they're always angry with their partner. Well, again, ask yourself, are they being abused? Because if they are, of course they're gonna behave this way. Of course they're gonna be dysregulated.
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, one of the things I was thinking of as you're talking, and I know we'll speak after the podcast at some point soon, I hope. Um, the, we work with educators that the Yale Center, promotional intelligence, all of our work is bringing the world of emotional intelligence and the approach that we have created into schools. As you're talking, I'm thinking that these kids every go, they go to school, these kids who are caught in the middle and then gaslighted and controlled and having to betray one parent in favor of another who may be the abuser or probably is the abuser as they walk through the door in the morning and they're in a bad mood or they fail their math test or they're spaced out in the classroom, or they're a bully in the, their, their homeroom own. How can educators know more about this? So I really would like to find a way to make that happen, uh, and to perhaps do some work together to make that
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: I would be, I would be com so honored. My original work began years ago at the college where I teach, I created an intimate partner violence program. Um, and what it is, is I, we talk about where is your, I have a webinar, it's called Where Is Your Line? Love is Not Control. And it's about teaching young people what to look for in relationships that may not be physically abusive, but maybe someone not, you know, taking your phone and saying, why are you texting this person? Why are you talking like all of those nuances of abuse? And I, I, I just would be, I would love to have this in the public schools. I would, young people need to be learning about all of these because I say to your point, Robin, when children are coming into school and they're bullying or disassociating, they're, you know, not engaged at all. Why are we not immediately saying what's going on with that kid at home?
Dr. Robin Stern: Rather than sit up straight and pay attention. And
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: By the way, their father or their mother might be the most upstanding PTO member. I mean, Susan Weitzman writes an amazing book, and of course the abuse happens in every single socioeconomic status, of course. But she writes an amazing book called Not to People like Us, because we don't expect it to be the professional, the lawyer, the doctor. We don't expect it to be that person. We expect it to be the poor person who has maladaptive coping. And that's not true. This crosses all spheres and it's structurally endemic. It's, it's like structurally in our society's norms
Dr. Robin Stern: To expect this. And we expect the educator to be able to say what's going on at home. But maybe they haven't had the education either.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Exactly. So
Dr. Robin Stern: People are listening to you and people are listening to us right now. What tips do you have for parents whose kids are hurting for parents whose kids were not listened to, or they were not listened to by the courts and they're raising kids in the way that you were. What are some things that they can begin to do or do differently at home?
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: I think it's really, really important to not be defensive about yourself. Know that your children are going to say or accuse you of the things they are. Um, they are a recorder. They have heard what the abusive parent says, and they are spitting out what they're supposed to do. And so it's really important to not be defensive because, um, what we know happens is these chil the abuser wants the children to be compromised. If they're compromised, he can control them. I'm saying he, but it could be a she, he can control them and if he can control them, then of course he's gonna have more ability to weaponize them against the protective parent. Every time a protective parent engages in an argument about whatever the false allegations are, the gaslighting the child has heard, every time they do that, what they're doing is they're actually emboldening the abuser.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: I say that the abuser has like a little kindling, like a little fire going on in the child, right? Think about like one of those cute little fireplaces, right? And every time we are defensive and saying, that's not true. And why would you say that we actually add fuel to the fire. The more we disengage from it in a, in a kind way. This is not gray rock. This is more, I call it vest
Dr. Robin Stern: Of course. And it, so, I mean, your words sound like my words in the gaslight effect. There's tremendous alignment when somebody is abusing you rather than, oh my God, I'm not paranoid. Didn't you see what I did last night? I can't believe No, I'm sorry. I don't see it that way. I know that you feel strongly about this. I just don't see it that way. Perfect. I'm gonna have a cup of tea now. Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: That's right. And it's hard when there are children and they are acting like they hate us. They truly are because they're petrified that everything, they've heard, all of the gaslighting, they're petrified that it might be true. And he is trying, he abuser, let's just say he or she is trying to create disorganized attachment. It's his goal. And so we have to fortify and, and so you ask like a, a hint or two, a second hint would be connect at all costs, connect, connect, connect, engage the limbic system of their brain so that they actually eventually can cognitively process what's occurring.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, and you're the role model as well. You're teaching them how to do it and how to co-regulate with others as well. So this has been just an incredible conversation and so important for people to hear. Please tell us where people can find you.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. I'm at Coercive Control Consulting or it's, you can also look up, I know your heart.com and I'm on Instagram, Dr. Co chila, coercive Control, and of course everywhere else too. So I'd love to hear from some of your listeners
Dr. Robin Stern: You book so people can see
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: It. Sure. The book is called Framed. It'll be coming out. It's Women in the Family Court Underworld, and it will be coming out, it's 22 con contributors, 22 bravest. Mothers in the World have shared their stories anonymously with us, and we really hope that we can elevate the conversation about what's going on in family court. It is a gaslighting and institutional betrayal that's occurring.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much, Christine, for joining me today, and I can't wait for our next conversation.
Dr. Christine Cocchiola: Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lenz, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
Listen On
robin.stern@yale.edu
