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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I am really excited to have with me today Chris Shelton, who is a writer, a researcher, podcaster, and a consultant, and, uh, someone who spent his life growing up in, um, a cult. And I'm gonna let him tell you about the cult of Scientology.
Chris Shelton: Scientology, of course, is the gift that keeps on giving in terms of cults. And, uh, by that I mean that every time there's this saying that we have in the ex Scientology world that, um, that Scientology is always worse than you think. However bad you think it is, based on what you've heard, there's always some new layer coming out or, or being exposed that takes it to a whole new level of awful. And, um, and it's been known in the ex cult and sort of cult recovery field for quite some time. It's been said by, by people before I even came along, that Scientology is one of the hardest of the destructive cults to get over or recover from. Because of the layers of manipulation and thought reform techniques that are used against its members. It's, there's a lot of non-obvious things going on in Scientology as well as obvious stuff.
Chris Shelton: Uh, so yeah, there have been a number of things that have inspired me since leaving Scientology 10 years ago, but it's really been education psychoeducation that has been the thing that has led my recovery over all these years. Um, and learning about the re the thought reform techniques that exist out there, how they're codified, how they're laid out. You know, these are things the CIA knows all about. These are things intelligence agencies know all about. But, but how is it that somebody like l Ron Hubbard learns about these things? How is it that somebody like David Koresh learns about these things and then goes and uses them against people in a religious setting?
Dr. Robin Stern: What is thought reform or a thought reform technique?
Chris Shelton: Great. Yeah, it's basically a forceful way to get somebody to change their mind or to follow an, an ideological set of values or principles or any, uh, sort of foundational or very important set of beliefs. They usually, uh, tend to, you know, be used. Uh, for example, in after the, uh, Chinese Revolution, there was, there were reeducation camps set up, and these were brainwashing, you know, techniques were utilized against the people who were forced into these camps. This is something that goes on in North Korea today, and there's a, there's a series of about eight different categories, categories of, of activities or techniques or things you can do to somebody that will, that will get them thinking very differently than how they think. Now, for example, you could load the language, you could take the language of a subject or topic, and you can start making small or large changes in the definitions or context of how the words are used in such a way that you force a person to think down a particular path.
Chris Shelton: And that, that, that thinking becomes more and more locked into place the more they use certain language. Um, like double binds, for example. Gregory Bateson, uh, came up with this concept of how you can lock somebody's thinking into place, or actually even create a kind of psychosis in a person by establishing, um, double binds, where a person where one thing is, has to be true or has to be accepted, but then there's a completely opposite mutually exclusive concept that also has to be accepted as true. And these two things don't really go together very well, but a person would have to twist their thinking to make it make sense or make it true. For example, one of the main principles in Scientology that you were taught very early on, and a lot of people really, uh, sort of gravitate to this principle, is that when in doubt about something or someone communicate, talk, let's have a talk.
Chris Shelton: You know, let's have a conversation. Let's, let's discuss this. Let's sort it out. Communication. And Scientology is presented as a universal solvent, something that will dissolve any issue or problem if you just do it right. And that sounds like a great idea and a great way to get along with people all the way up until you utter a single word contrary to what El Ron Hubbard had to say about things, especially Scientology, if you say, well, look, I I really enjoy this stuff about communication, but this business over here, I'm not so sure I really, I'm, I'm really in agreement with that. I don't think that's true. In fact, I think El Ron Hubbard really didn't know what he was talking about that day. Well, if you try to do something like that and you insist that you are right, El Ron Hubbard is wrong, uh, they're not gonna be real super happy with you.
Chris Shelton: And over time, some often a very short period of time, you will find yourself being shown the door and kicked right out of there. And you say, but I thought, wait a minute, let's talk about this. Let's communicate. Let's, let's sort this out,
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, obviously it sounds like they're lying, so, um, uh, in the first place, but, um, but it also sound, it's interesting to me that they would kick you out rather than trying to force you back into the, uh, the logic that they've come up with. Because then you're out there in the world saying, you know, this Scientology thing, it's, it, it's not, it doesn't, it's not truthful. Right? Like, I was lied to. And do they, I guess they don't care about people, or, well, I shouldn't say that. Do they care about people out there saying bad things about Scientology? Or are they only interested in the people in Scientology moving the movement forward?
Chris Shelton: Oh, very much, very much the latter. They are, um, all about themselves, right? As any destructive cult goes, it's our way or the highway, right? We have the truth. We have the sacred science. And that's another of Lifton's points from the, from his, um, research on thought reform and the psychology of totalism that you establish a sacred truth or sacred lore, or in other words, you have the secret sauce. And we are the ones who have that a, a scientologist and nobody else has it. And our way is the only way. And this sort of total is thinking also, of course, uh, you know, appeals to a certain, um, mindset, but you can create that mindset in people if you, if, if they believe this is the truth and the light and the way, and a lot of people don't have a problem falling into that when it comes to their religious beliefs or their ideological beliefs, then um, you can create an us versus them scenario where it's not like everybody has their own way of looking at the world, and everybody's okay. And we can have differing opinions or ideas when it's, when it's us versus them. We are the good, they're the bad. And if they're not on board with us, they're wrong
Dr. Robin Stern: Uhhuh
Chris Shelton:
Dr. Robin Stern: I think that the world we're living in right now,
Chris Shelton: Uh, very much so
Dr. Robin Stern: What makes you an expert in this? Tell us.
Chris Shelton: Okay. Well, yeah, I've, I've spent 10 years, um, literally every day, pretty much, uh, since the end of 2012, the beginning of 2013, finding out first about Scientology, something that I was raised in. I'm a second generation cult member, and I spent 27 years in my life as a, as a, a full, full-blown professional scientologist, 25 years working for the Church of Scientology. And, uh, in lots and lots of different capacities, at lots of different levels, all the way up to the billion year contract and, and lifetime commitment.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can you, can you tell us what it was like emotionally, and, um, did you, uh, I'm guessing at that time, please tell me if I'm not correct, that you believed this.
Chris Shelton: Oh, very much so. I was all in, I was a true believer. Um, the, the mindset of Scientology is that we are saving the world, um, despite the world and despite what the world thinks it wants, it's in a delusional, hypnotic state. The people in the world are, are basically a bunch of idiots who don't know and don't understand the situation that they're in. And it's up to us to wake them up and enlighten them and tell them what's what, and get them on the path to total freedom and, and, and spiritual immortality. Uh, scientology's not a, it doesn't have small goals. It has world domination goals,
Chris Shelton: And the theory in Scientology, the secret sauce that they offer is a, is a series of techniques and methods called auditing, which is supposed to be a sort of semi therapeutic process where you sit down with an audit tour, somebody who's trained to do this with you, and relieves all the stress and trauma and emotional charge that is connected with all the trauma in your life. And not only this lifetime, but Scientology has a belief in an infinite soul or spirit. And, uh, uh, an immortal spirit. They call it a Satan, uh, not a spirit or a ghost or a soul. They call it a Satan from the Greek letter theta. And this idea of a, the is who you are supposed to really be. Uh, you're not your body. A body is just something that you have right now as a temporary thing. And the belief system is that you can be rehabilitated as a spiritual entity so that you can realize your true power and spiritual self.
Chris Shelton: And that sounds great. Uh, it sounds nice, right? It doesn't sound like taking over the world kind of stuff. But Hubbard had, um, some pretty wild ideological principles and ideas, and, and when Scientologists get wrapped up in our way, our truth, our methods are the only thing that are valid and workable in this world. Nothing else even comes close. Nothing else works. That's how they set up the us versus them. This is, um, something you could even see Tom Cruise talking about, uh, on video where he talks about how at an accident site or at a disaster scene, Scientologists, he said, are the only people who can do anything about it. They're the only people who know what to do. Everybody else, EMTs, firefighters, emergency personnel, other religious figures, other people, yeah, they're, they're all just a bunch of morons. We are the only ones who actually know how to do anything about it. And this is the, this is the attitude and upbringing that I had. You know, I never questioned it.
Dr. Robin Stern: I, I have a, of course not why you grew up for, like, in that gaslight bubble, right? That's right, that's
Chris Shelton: Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, I have a very specific question because of something you said, if your body, um, if you are, if your body is just the thing you inhabit, is that close to the way you put it? Then? Does that also extend, um, a belief, extend to a belief that if you have like a weird feeling about what's going on, that you should just ignore it because it's not really, it's not the truth of who you are. Um, like if you are uncomfortable, if you have a 'cause, often we, we have, um, um, signals about our emotions that live in our body. We get a headache, we sweat. Um, we, our heart races, we have a stomach ache. You walk in, you, you're in an interaction, you don't like it, it, it's uncomfortable, it feels wrong, you're feeling it in your body, but if your body is just that thing you inhabit, then maybe you don't need to pay attention to it so much. I, I'm just questioning whether or not like that's part of it too.
Chris Shelton: Very much so, um, emotional reactions are a real thing in Scientology, but they are something that your body is experiencing or that you as a spirit are experiencing and are sort of extending to your body. Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, thank you. The spirit is the thing that has been, that has lived before you and will continue after the death of your body.
Chris Shelton: Correct? You are your spirit, your, that is who you really are, and you are a sort of composite being of a body and a mind, which is sort of a energy box of, of, of, uh, ideas or pictures or, you know, things that your memories. This is sort of contained in a, in this sort of energy box that you carry around with you as a spirit. It's not really who you are or part of you, but you, you, you use it like a toolbox, I guess you could say. And then there is your body, and you've had over the course of your existence in this universe, this physical universe that we inhabit according to El Ron Hubbard, um, you've been here for trillions of years. The physical universe is far older, Hubbard says, than science grants. And, uh, you've been inhabiting body after body after body, on planet, after planet, all over the universe, right? You've been, you've been trapped here for an awful long time, he says, but, but there, you weren't always on planet earth, and we're not from earth. Earth is just another planet, you know, in the system. And, uh, and that's the reality of existence, is that we are these immortal spiritual entities.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. Yeah. And, um, so when you were growing up, did you, uh, have a, a life that looked like going to school? And who were your teachers and did you live with parents, and did you have these teachings, um, told to you, uh, presented to you daily in school, out of school? How did that work?
Chris Shelton: Yeah, I went to regular public school, had a regular looking life growing up, regular, uh, you know, grade school, middle school, high school. It was when I graduated high school that they really went to town on recruiting me to work for Scientology. So I was 17 when I started working for the Church of Scientology, and I did it for another, for 25 straight years. So my life was very, very much wrapped up in Scientology. But my upbringing was, I, I had friends, non Scientology friends, but all of my parents' friends were Scientologists. We were very much in that community. This was out in California, and this was in the seventies and eighties. And so it was a, it was a little bit of a different time back then, you know, there was a little bit more spiritual yearning in this kind of thing in the seventies.
Chris Shelton: It was a wild time. And, um, and I very much grew up with these ideas. Uh, I was absolutely convinced as an, as a, as a child that I was this immortal spiritual entity, and that, uh, I did not need to be afraid of death or dying because I would just go get another body. It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. Um, there was some degree of comfort in that. There was some degree of certainty provided to me in that it was really pounded into my head over and over and over again as a kid that this is the way it is. My, my dad especially was very certain of that, and sometimes he would share stories with me about past life things. Uh, you know, past life events in Scientology are not a fiction. They're very, very, very much considered true. So when Star Wars came out, just to just kind of imagine from a Star Wars, from a, from a Scientology point of view, here comes Star Wars a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, right?
Chris Shelton: And if you believe
Chris Shelton: We gotta get to work. And so there's this sort of savior complex that also runs through Scientology. And this is what I being brought up with this. I thought of myself as a little kind of, you know, superhero, a little watchman type, you know, comic character, and that it was my duty to save the world. And, and so it really didn't take a lot of convincing when I was right outta high school, no real life experience. I'd spent, you know, a year working at Burger King. I I, I wasn't a, a a worldly person, right? And, uh, and they said, Hey, here's what El Ron Hubbard has to say about this world. And here's quote after quote, after quote from El Ron Hubbard about, you know, how important Scientology is and how important our mission is, and how if we don't act now, you might not have a world for your kids to grow up in. What's the point of having kids? You've had a billion kids. What you need to do is get your nose to the grindstone and get to work. That's what you need to do, right? And I bought it. I was like, yep, okay. Let's do it. And that's how the whole journey sort of began for me in earnest, uh, at right outta high school. And so, um, so that's, that's kind of how they got me
Dr. Robin Stern: And so when you then, um, started to work with them full-time, did you live in a, a community that were all Scientologists, and did you go to Scientology school? Like people would go to church, um, um, that kind of thing every week or every day? And did you have, uh, like developmental courses in how to, how to take over the world? And then of course, where I'm headed with my questions is, and then when did you wake up?
Chris Shelton: Right. Okay, so, so 25 years of working for the church, it was a, there was, you know, two and a half decades there. And the, and the, and the short version is that I spent eight years working in Santa Barbara, California at the, at the Santa Barbara Church of Scientology. And I was basically spin my wheels because Santa Barbara is not the Scientology capital of the world. There's really n you know, about a hundred Scientologists there. So I, it, it's Scientology's pretty small, by the way. It's, it's a tiny little outfit. And, and I saw that up front and, you know, and, and up close and personal for eight years. And I was very frustrated. I was 25 years old, and I was like, you know, I've been doing this all this time. We're not clearing the planet. In fact, we're not even clearing Santa Barbara.
Chris Shelton: I feel like I need to do more. I feel like I need to take more responsibility for this world and, and for all the people in it. And I had a very, very simplistic, I was gonna say delusional, but I really don't think I was in delusion. I just was surrounded by thought stopping cliches by these ideas that, that, that it was, you know, that it, that, that we were getting the, that we could do this, that we could save the world, but somehow it wasn't happening. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna have to double down. I'm gonna have to work even harder. And so what I did was I joined the sort of elite core group that, that, that really runs Scientology in a similar way. That if you were to look at the Catholic church and go, O okay, who runs the Catholics?
Chris Shelton: How is, how, how is this thing structured? If you really wanted to get into a power position with the Catholics, you'd go work at the Vatican, you'd, that's what you would do. You would, you'd go all in, right? You'd go work with the Pope or, or go work in that, at that level of Catholicism. That's basically what I did when I moved to Los Angeles, and I joined the Sea Organization, uh, as in SEA, the sea is in the ocean. And this is a, a core group of people within Scientology who work 24 7, 365. They just dedicate their entire life to Scientology. There's no outside job. There's no family, there's no visiting relatives on Thanksgiving. There's no weekends off it's full time commitment.
Dr. Robin Stern: Are these people who chose not to have a family enjoying s Scientology instead, or they left their family to join Scientology? Both.
Chris Shelton: Okay. Both. But there are not there, there used to be. There are no longer children being raised in the Sea org. Mm-Hmm.
Chris Shelton: And, and we worked on that base and we hardly ever left. Uh, and that was my life. And so I, that's the, if you've ever heard of Scientologists signing this billion year contract, that's the sea org. That's your commitment to the, the sea org. 'cause I'm not just dedicating this lifetime to the work. I'm committing the next billion years of my spiritual existence to this work. And that's what I did when I was 25. So I went, okay, I'm all in. I I moved down to Los Angeles and I spent, like I said, the next 17 years there before I finally
Dr. Robin Stern: So what did you actually do every day for those 25 years?
Chris Shelton: Quite a few things. Um, Scientology has a, it's a very, um, there's a lot going on in Scientology. They have the, the basic structure of it is that, um, Scientologists do classwork and they do auditing. And auditing would be most analogous to therapy or like a counseling session. There's, it looks like a counseling session. There's a one-on-one. There's, there's questions asked. There, there are, there's trauma that's probed. You're, you, you know, there, there's methods and techniques to auditing that are hypnotic in nature, by the way, in which, uh, seek to sort of relieve a person of their past life, stress and trauma. The, the stuff that's happened to you in this lifetime, according to El Ron Hubbard is tame and doesn't really mean much of anything. Even if you come out of a broken, abused, you know, household as a child, that doesn't compare to the kind of stuff that's been done to you and that you have done to other people in the, in the past, uh, in, you know, historically.
Chris Shelton: So, um, so a lot of attention in Scientology is on your past lives and, and what you've been up to then. But to get to the past lives, you have to go through this lifetime stuff, which means that during the course of your auditing, you are revealing all of your deepest, darkest secrets to your auditor during the course of the questioning. You are asked incredibly invasive, uh, personal questions about every aspect of your life, and you are expected to be fully transparent or the process they tell you isn't going to work if you're not honest and open.
Dr. Robin Stern: First of all, that sounds incredibly grueling and, and, um, I don't even have words. I I'm so sorry for your having spent all that time. Um, obviously you are, it's led you to your path of now healing others. But before we go there, um, how do you get a past life? Like, you know, if we're sitting here, if we met over coffee, we would be discussing our past lives, because how do I know? I mean, maybe I was an Indian princess and, you know, I, I don't know. But, um, how do you get one? Like where does it come from? Oh,
Chris Shelton: I'll tell you all about it. Oh, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's very easy. Um, so, okay, so let's say, let's say that it's true that you are an immortal spiritual being who's been kicking around for millions and trillions of years, right? And you've got all this accumulation of life after life after life, and every single life that you've lived, no matter how it was, where it was, who you were, what the experience was, there are two things in common about every single one of those lives. You were born and you died. And both of those events are traumatic.
Dr. Robin Stern: And you have to recall those and go through those,
Chris Shelton: Not every single one of them, but the way that the auditing works is predicated on the idea that they, that that harmful or destructive events that have happened to you are, uh, stored in your mind. In that energy box I referred to earlier as sheets of energy charged particles that you, that your fatton sort of interprets or can look at and interpret as the memories or pictures of your past lives. You have memories of these things the same way you have a memory of what happened to you yesterday. Because in Scientology, this is not a matter of being stored in your brain with neurons. That's not how Scientology thinks about your mind. These are stored as sheets of energy and these sheets of energy impact your body. If you are suffering from leukemia, cancer, bad eyesight, uh, you need, your hip is outta whack, your knee is, has a problem. The reason is because these, these, this energy, this stored charge from these traumatic incidents is impinging itself on your body right now. And by relieving that stress and trauma and, and removing that electrical charge, you relieve the physical symptoms because that's, Hubbard says what's really causing the problem. It's not viruses and bacteria and, and ca you know, and, and other problems. It's you, you are doing it, you are creating it and, and you're creating it because of the trauma of your past experiences that you're carrying around with you.
Dr. Robin Stern: So did you have to make up those experiences?
Chris Shelton: Yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: I was gonna do it if you asked
Chris Shelton: Me. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Please don't. Um, so
Chris Shelton: So this is how you're relating the incident as though it's happening to you again. And you recount in detail as much as you can remember about the incident. And the auditor says, great. You get all the way to the end, and maybe there's tears, maybe there's pain, maybe there's, you know, or maybe there's not. How, how emotional the incident is for you depends from person to person. And you go, okay, good. And you get to the end of it and you go, yep. And I, you know, and I, and I was permanently damaged ever since, right? And you go, okay, great. Now return to the beginning of the incident and tell me when you're there, oh, okay, I'm back at the beginning. Great, run through it again. Tell me all about it. And you go through it again and again and again. And if it's not relieving by about two or three times through, if the person's not feeling a little better, if there's nothing happening, here's how you get to the past lives or earlier times.
Chris Shelton: As the auditor then says, okay, we're, we're kind of exhausted. This one, let's look for an earlier similar time that you experienced pain and unconsciousness. And the guy goes, oh, well, let's see. There was a car accident I was in when I was four. Good, let's go take a look at that. And down the line to four years old, you go, I'm four years old, I'm sitting in the backseat. I don't have my seatbelt on, da da da da da. And you go through that instant. And if you go through that once or twice or three times and you're still not feeling very good, you're kind of, uh, this is really kind of drudgery. I really don't like doing this. Alright, is there an earlier similar time? Well, dude, I was four years old. There's no earlier similar time. Alright, let's take a look and see if there might be an earlier similar time that comes to mind of you having pain and unconsciousness, or you having been in a car accident or, or, or whatever it is.
Chris Shelton: That's the hook that you're pursuing, right? And oh, well, there was this time, I, I, I got this picture of a horse buggy. Oh, a horse buggy. Okay. What, what's that about? I don't know. I just got this picture of, of an overturned cart and I'm laying on the ground and there's a wheel on top of me. Great. Let's develop that like a Polaroid picture. Let's, let's look at that more. Let's, what about this wheel? Where were you, what was happening? And the auditor's job is to develop this and get the person to remember or recall and relive this na this new incident that they definitely did not experience this lifetime
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes.
Chris Shelton: But that they are now coming up with memories of, and this is all positive suggestion, hypnotic trans technique and induction. And that's how they go about doing this. And um, and that's how Dianetics basically works, which was the very first form of auditing that Elron Hubbard developed in 1950. And this is what started it all, was exactly what I just described to you. That technique is the technique of Dianetics.
Dr. Robin Stern: That is fascinating. I'm glad I didn't do a practice session with you right now.
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Dr. Robin Stern: When you were going through it, did you, well, let me ask this in a different way. How did you begin to wake up? How did you begin to think? I just made all that. Tell me. Yeah,
Chris Shelton: Absolutely. So yeah, waking up from this whole thing was a very, very long process. It basically, because I was raised with this, um, it was deep. These, these, these beliefs and ideas were not things I questioned. This was my worldview. I, I looked at other people and I thought, your problems are not your economics or your lack of education or language problems or, or whatever your problem is, these past life traumas that you're carrying around with you and you don't even know about them. So, so that was how I thought about other people, and I thought about the world. And so it was easy to fit everybody into that mold. You know, you look at people and you think you know what's going on with them, and you don't have to think about it anymore. I don't have to listen to you. I don't have to talk to you. I already know what's up with you. It's, it's really quite a conceited, arrogant point of view, but that's what it is to be in a cult. And Oh,
Dr. Robin Stern: Did it color your, all of your relationships?
Chris Shelton: Oh, oh, very much so. Yes, very much so. Um, and I only really had, after, after the 25 years of working for the church, we're talking about, I was 42 now. I had had a lot of experiences, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of physical abuse, uh, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, physical abuse, like being, I was assaulted as a scientologist. There were, there, it's a, it's a rough group. And, and it, and behind closed doors, they act very rough with each other. That, that things
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, is by a Scientologist.
Chris Shelton: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. I was, especially in the sea organization, that group of people, it would be like finding out that, you know, that, that behind closed doors in the Vatican, they're, they're beaten up on each other if they're not getting their work done. Right. It's like, it was like that we, we had very harsh punishments and discipline instilled for failure or for failure to meet targets or quotas or goals and things like that. It's a, it was an intensely production oriented environment. Um, it, it, I I could go on for a long time describing all the ways and means that that is accomplished. Um, there are layers and layers of, of, of nonsense going on in that group. And that was the kind of thing that slowly woke me up was was it was okay if I was getting physically abused 'cause I was in it to save the world.
Chris Shelton: And, you know, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs, right? You gotta, you're gonna have to sacrifice, you're gonna have to have discipline. You're gonna have to work your off and that's how we're gonna get the work done. Right. You don't see, you know, neo complaining in the matrix about the food. That's the food. There it is. Right? And, and we had a very similar food,
Dr. Robin Stern: When did you start to question and what was that like for you to second guess yourself or second guess them?
Chris Shelton: Yeah, it took a long time for me to develop that within myself. It was a 10 year process. Um, because it, the first doubts and reservations started around 2002, 2003 when I started seeing things going on around me that were inexcusable, right. People being, uh, hurt or disciplined and very, very harsh conditions. Right? Oh, and by the way, we were making 50 bucks a week. That was our pay. Wow. So, um, so there was no, it was an environment that was presented to us as, look, it's harsh and disciplined because that's what we need to get everybody on the same page so that we can all get the work done in the most efficient way possible without people slacking off or, or goofing off or being silly. And you're only given this much money 'cause you really only need that much money to go get socks and shoes and things like that.
Chris Shelton: We're taking care of you. We got your back, we got everything you need right here. So it was sort of this environment where we thought, we knew it was harsh, but we thought it was necessary and even important that it be that way so as to instill that discipline and work ethic and, and sort of attitude of we don't have a lot of time. We are, we're trying to save the world here. We're not messing about. So that was our attitude. I I didn't have the idea that I was doing this to make money or to, or for personal self-aggrandizement or something. It was very much not about that for me personally, but I started seeing that there was an incredible amount of attention on money by this group. Weekly quotas of a million dollars, things like that. Like these outrageous targets to, to be met of, of income production. And it only got worse and worse and more and more ramped up over the years as I, as I carried on the income demand as they put it.
Dr. Robin Stern: And who was getting that money.
Chris Shelton: That's where I started opening my eyes because I realized that all the money and all the power was being concentrated in one guy, the guy at the top. And at first that man was El Ron Hubbard. And he died in 1986. And, and, and uh, and the, and the church was taken over by a man named David Miscavige. And David Miscavige appears to be a true believer as well. I don't think he is a complete conman, but he is a ruthless, authoritarian dictator. And he physically beats on his staff. And there's, there's so many testimonials from people who used to work with him about what a harsh disciplinarian he is and, and, and all around jerk. And that didn't filter down to us at the, at the levels that I was at for a long time. You know, the, there's a, there were control mechanisms or structures in place that were not obvious to me right away. That became more obvious over the years. For example, we didn't have internet access. I spent all that time in the early and mid two thousands all the way up until 2012, barely having any access at all to the internet and no access to anything negative about Scientology. We had a filter in place on the internet once we did get an internet connection, a wifi connection, which didn't happen until about 2010.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh my goodness.
Chris Shelton: On the base. Once we got that connection, it was a filtered connection. It was a Chinese style connection. You couldn't look up certain words and phrases and, and, and, and websites. They were just blocked off as though they didn't exist. I would, and and I didn't hear or see South Park that episode about zino and, and the galactic over all that stuff, all that crazy stuff. I never knew any of that. Uh, all of that was very, very tightly regulated. It's called information control. And cults do that to their members. They, they, they make the members, they sort of thought police them, you could say. And I was heavily thought policed
Dr. Robin Stern: During that time. Your people you were involved with were also in sci They were Scientologists as opposed to like outside reality check kind of person people.
Chris Shelton: Correct. I had no outside connections. This was also another form of the information control. Right. There's a, there's a very simple model of cult control, which I'll share with you very quickly. 'cause it's, it's only four points. It's behavior control, information control, thought control and emotion control. It's called the bite model. BITE. Mm-Hmm.
Chris Shelton: Right? When nine 11 happened, we were fed a whole different story about what went down. I mean, we knew the Twin Towers had come down, that that much was obvious. But, um, but for us, it was a personal failing when nine 11 happened. It was our fault. We didn't, we're not saving the world fast enough. Look at what they're doing to each other. Wow. That was how we interpreted nine 11. So that's kind of what I mean is everything that you know about the world or about life is being given to you or for, or, or fed to you through this internalized, filtered system. And that was how I lived my life. So I didn't know all the things y'all know when I was in that. I know now. Right?
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I mean, it, it's a little bit like being in a coma. Um,
Chris Shelton: Yeah, very much so. And waking up that kind of felt like it. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: I'd love to know, I'd love for you to share with us, if you will, please. Um, what was it like in the last few weeks or months before you got out? What, what was your own thought process and what did you actually do so that people who might be in a cult, um, whether it's a cult of two or, or a Scientology cult, uh, well, they're probably not listening to this 'cause they have not access to it, but, um, like what, what did you do to get yourself ready? And then how did you following that become a writer and a researcher and, and someone who is speaking out to heal and to help?
Chris Shelton: Great. Yeah. I, um, the final straw for me after realizing that, that, you know, they were so money oriented and there was a lot of power and control going on. I, um, the final straw was one day when I, when I sort of had this epiphany, this, this epiphany. I, I sort of like looked up and was like, wait a minute. I, I, I realized that my day-to-Day activities were, were very deceptive. I was having to lie to people in order to convince them to, to be Scientologists or do Scientology or become, come back into the fold. I would, I would go, I, I had a job at, at near the end where I was recovering people. I was literally going and knocking on doors and like, Hey, you used to come into the church and now you don't. Let's talk about it. Let's get you back in. Right. That was my job. Yeah. And, um, and I started realizing that in order to convince people to come back, I was lying to them, oh, no, no, that's not gonna happen. Or, we're not interested in your money
Chris Shelton: Or, or, or Right. There were all these lies I had to tell. And, and once I sort of woke up to the fact that I was lying, that that's not part of my, my, my moral character and I'm not into lying to people. That's not what I'm about. And once I realized that, that's what my life had become, I was like, oh my God, this is really, really bad. I've really got to do something about this. And that was the thing that set me on the course of getting out. It took me nine months to get outta Scientology. 'cause I, I was still in a very conflicted head space. I, I had been raised with this. This was not something you just wake up one day and go, oh, it's all wrong. Okay, that's it. I'm done. It, it, it never happens like that. It's, it's always a gradual process. And for me, that epiphany about deception and lies was very important. That was the moral break that I needed. The sort of moral outrage that kind of went, wait a minute, what am I doing here? That was a very important moment, but that wasn't the, the complete breakaway point. I didn't just get up and walk out.
Dr. Robin Stern: Did did you feel frightened or, or fear about, um, either looking back what you had been in or, um, uh, was it simply, oh my God, I need to get out of here? Um, I guess it wasn't simply that there's no simply about it is what I'm
Chris Shelton: There, there, yeah. It was a very complicated process because what I was afraid of is, okay, well I've been dependent on this group for 25 years for my survival as meager. And, and, and sort of, you know, baron, as that survival has been on $50 a week, it's still 50 bucks a week. I'm still eating. These people still feed me. I, I, I have clothes on my back. I have a place to sleep because of this group. If I leave, where do I go? Who am I? I didn't have anybody to go fall back on except thank goodness my parents because they had gotten outta Scientology before I did. And I didn't actually let myself, I kind of was in denial about that. I kind of didn't wanna think about that. So I didn't, I was maintaining communication with my mom. Um, you know, every few months or once or twice a year I would talk to her.
Chris Shelton: I've always been super tight with my mom. So we always kind of maintained at least some form of communication. And once I got on the fence and realized I needed to make a change, I didn't have any support system or structure to fall back on. And that's what scared me. There's no safety net here. If I take the plunge and leave, I'm gonna end up flipping burgers at McDonald's. Right. This, that's what's gonna happen to me is I'm gonna end up, you know, being a nobody. And, and, and don't get me wrong there, that's sort of a thought stopping cliche there. I was just uttering, there's nothing wrong with working at McDonald's. My point is, the church would use that line as, this is what you're going to do. If you leave us, you're gonna be a failure. You're going to be a loser. You're gonna be a homeless person on the street if you leave. And I believed that. So I needed to first find something, some lifeline outside the church that I could, that I could, you know, clinging to. And thankfully at that time, at that moment in time, I picked up the phone and I was, this is December, 2011 actually. And I said to my mom, um, I'm thinking about leaving. I don't know what to do. And, and she said, no matter what you do, I will be here for you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh,
Chris Shelton: That's it. That's it. That's all she had to say. She didn't have to go on a tirade against Scientology. In fact, she very wisely did not, she didn't, she didn't join me in my moral outrage. 'cause I was ra I was. I was like, ah, you know, and she's like, I totally get it. I said, listen, no matter what you do, you, me, you know, and I talked to my dad. They had, they had since divorced and gotten remarried to non Scientologists. So I told my dad too, and I said, Hey, here's, here's what I'm thinking. And he said, yeah, I get it. I totally get it. Listen, you're gonna have help if you leave. I, I, you know, I'm just gonna tell you we're gonna, we're gonna help you out. And I was like, okay, good. And that's all I needed to hear.
Chris Shelton: 'cause that was enough. And, and I knew that somebody had my back. Yeah. And that's, that was the what allowed me to take the plunge. And, and like I said, it took me nine months because I, i, I gotta be clear that while I was not okay with the work conditions and the lying and the deception, I still believed we were immortal spiritual beings who lived forever and that we needed to be freed from the trap of the physical world. Right. I still believed in all this. Yeah. Dogmatic, you know, stuff that Scientology offers that that, that didn't go away in the same way that just, 'cause I might think that the Catholics have a, have a problem with children. That doesn't mean I don't believe in God anymore. Yes. It was the same kind of thing. Right. I was very disaffected with the church as a, as a sort of, um, corporate structure or entity, but I still believed in the principles of Scientology and therefore I still wanted the okay to do Scientology.
Chris Shelton: And so I knew I, I wanted to stop working for them, but I didn't wanna stop being a Scientologist. Yeah. That took a little bit longer.
Chris Shelton: And I'm an incredibly curious person and I have been a voracious reader my entire life. I've read thousands of books. And so I wanted the information and, and once, and I knew that there were red flags, I knew there were problems with Scientology. I just had no idea how far down the rabbit hole it went. I had no idea. I had never heard in 27 years of Scientology, not once had anybody said the word zou to me. I didn't reach that level. I didn't know about all the volcanoes and all the stuff. I didn't, I'd never seen South Park. I went and watched it. I was like, oh my God, what is this? Right. I've never heard of this stuff before. For
Dr. Robin Stern: Those people who have not heard of Zou, will you just say who?
Chris Shelton: Oh, sure. It's an old story. Yeah. So one of the core, core high level beliefs in Scientology that you ascend to, you have to kind of go through a bunch of stuff to learn this sacred truth. But one of the sacred truths in Scientology is that seventies, five or 76 million years ago, there was a huge disaster right here on earth. And this planet had been part of a, a confederacy of planets, a a sort of, you know, space civilization. And the ruler of this civilization was a guy named Nu and he was this rabid genocidal Hitler like dictator. And he killed trillions of people by bringing them to planet Earth and blowing them all up in volcanoes with nuclear weapons and doing this massive spiritual brainwashing on all of the, on all of the disembodied souls, uh, that were trapped here. He, he trapped them all here.
Chris Shelton: And this is this fantastic science fiction story. It's absolutely ludicrous. But this is a core, core principle of Scientology belief at its highest levels. And there are levels, I, I guess I really, really didn't say this, but there are levels of belief in Scientology that you have to ascend to. They don't give it to you all on day one,
Chris Shelton: I was in it for 27 years and I never got there
Dr. Robin Stern: I'm gonna stop you just 'cause I wanna be respectful of your time. Um, oh, sure,
Chris Shelton: Sure, sure.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well as the clock, and I can already tell 'cause you just really enjoy listening to you and, and your story is fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. Uh, all of that at the same time that I'd love to have you back to tell us more. Um, but in the meantime, before you leave, yeah. Um, did you go through a, a formal process of, um, deradicalization? Did you read Stephen, um, Hassan and, uh, and others? Well, Lifton you mentioned, I believe, and Yep. Um, how did you sort it all out in your mind?
Chris Shelton: Great, great question. Let me, and I'll give you the, the real short version here. So after sort of breaking out of the, of the, of the thought bubble or the PRIs of belief, you could say of Scientology by learning about Zou and all these other things, it took me about three months of daily dives into the internet to get to the bottom of it and figure it all out. And kind of realize what an l Ron, what a, what a liar. L Ron Hubbard had been about every aspect of his own personal life, as well as the Scientology dogma. It's not just an illogical dogma, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a thought reform dogma. It's, it's meant to trap you in a prison of belief. Yeah. And once that was very clear to me, I broke out of that. Right. And that was no longer something I was believing in anymore.
Chris Shelton: But a lifetime of that has an effect on a person. And that's what the recovery process has been for me. And it's been like we've, we analogize it to stripping off layers of an onion. You know, you get one layer off and there's another one, and you strip that off and there's another one. And, and, and it, and it, and it required me learning about how this stuff works for me to be able to strip it all away. And it's been a 10 year process doing that. Um, I've put a lot of work into it. And I'm not suggesting that every single person who comes outta Scientology needs 10 years of therapy or recovery. But at the other hand,
Chris Shelton: I mean, I've, I started a YouTube channel and produced over a thousand videos about this stuff. And I've done a lot of interviews just like we're doing today with, with professionals, uh, in this field. 'cause it's not just me ranting. I, I want to talk to people who know, really know what they're talking about. And over the course of the last 10 years, I've become somebody who now knows what I'm talking about, because I went back to school and I got a degree in the psychology of coercive control. And that's what Scientology at its heart is really all about, is isolation, manipulation, and control, or coercive control. And this is now something that is being much more recognized in legal circles as a truly damaging and destructive pattern of behavior. It's a repeating pattern of abusive behavior, domestic violence, abusers, coercively control their spouses, Scientology and other destructive cults, coercively control their members. It's, it's, it's, it's not an upfront thing. They're not, they're not telling you what they're doing to you when they're doing it, and it looks like one thing, but it's something quite different. And that's, and
Dr. Robin Stern: In part, that's the gaslighting
Chris Shelton: That Exactly. And gaslighting is a major tool that is used in Scientology. If we look at these mechanisms or these, these like cognitive dissonance and, you know, and, and, uh, motivated reasoning and, and gaslighting and these sort of things that go on in our minds, we realize that these can be methods of control. Somebody of a predatory nature can purposefully do this to you and know exactly what they're doing and, and deceive you into thinking you're joining something great, when in fact you're joining something awful that's really at the bottom of, of what cults are all about. And Scientology is a cult. And El Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing. And, and David Miscavige, the man who's been running it since, since the eighties, he knows what he's doing when it comes to this stuff. So that's, that was the prison of belief that I was sort of trapped in. And, and it's been a real process getting not only physically getting away from that, but learning how it was done, why it was done, all the different ways in which it was done. And there are multiple layers of it when it comes to Scientology, and then trying to educate the public at large about how this stuff works. And that's been my life since leaving Scientology.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for your courage and in telling your story here and your openness and, and, um, willingness to share so much information, um, and so much personal information. Really appreciate it, and know it's been really important for our listeners. And, and, um, before I ask you to tell people where they can find you, and before I ask you to book another session,
Chris Shelton: Sure. Absolutely. Thank you very much. I, um, as you might have noticed, I don't have a problem talking. I've always been a pretty, you know, uh, affluent person,
Chris Shelton: And so far, that's turned out to be true. I've, I've helped hundreds of people over the last 10 years get out of destructive cults or coercive situations. And my book, um, I wrote in 2016 as an effort to sort of put down for people, okay, what is Scientology? Like, who was El Ron Hubbard? How did he pull this off? And that's what my book is. A lot of people come outta cults and they write memoirs about their experiences. And for me, that's chapter one. That's just, here's what happened to me, here's what I went through. Now let me tell you about what this really is all about. And that's, that's the point of my book, Scientology A to z new
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for that. I'm sure it'd be fascinating read. I have it, but have not read it yet. So I,
Chris Shelton: I hope you enjoy it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, I definitely will. As as your videos, as well as your videos. So where can people find you? And it sounds like lots of places. So tell us,
Chris Shelton:
Dr. Robin Stern: Done as well. You should, since it was also a lot of work to do all the undoing that it took in order to get you to the point where you were doing what you really are here to do. Thank you. So thank you so much, and, um, really grateful for your sharing and for your, um, for your compassion to people who, with people or compassion for people who are out there in, in this situation where they are experiencing, um, feeling a prisoner of someone's coercive control and your work to, to freedom of that. So I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you very much, Ms. Shelton.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.