Podcast Player Episode 047

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm thrilled to have with me today Dr. Ramani Durvasula, who is the number one expert in the world in narcissism. And I can't wait for this conversation. Dr. Ramani is a professor emeritus at California State University, which is in Los Angeles. She's the founder and CEO of Luna Education, training and Consulting. Dr. Ramani is the author of several books and her most recent book, it's Not You, please Run to Get It and Read it. It's fabulous. Where she identifies healing from narcissistic people. It's a guide to protecting and healing yourself from the daily harms of narcissism. Dr. Ramani is a, a licensed clinical psychologist and, uh, wonderful speaker and generous, um, very generous with her knowledge and wisdom as I've watched many of her videos, many of your videos, and have really learned quite a bit more than I ever thought I would need to know about narcissism. But it's actually quite, uh, quite a gift that you've given to the world. So thank you very much for all of your work. And I'm gonna start, um, where, uh, where you started, which ask you what led you to this?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah, I came into this through multiple pathways. I can't say it was some aha moment or something that happened in my life. Initially. It was a research question where basically the research question was brought about by my research team, observing how participants and patients in certain clinics would just behave really badly. And they were very entitled and very dysregulated and rageful and demanding and selfish as though only their time mattered. And that was taking a pretty significant toll on nursing staff, physicians, other allied health professions. And I thought, wow, just these few patients, uh, the reason not, not only, they're not getting probably the best healthcare, other people may not be getting it, and it's causing burnout in clinics that were already overburdened. And so that led me to wonder how do these personality styles, personality disorders, affect sort of health behaviors? That's was sort of my first entry.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And then I saw we had a lot of problems measuring this and all of that, but where it really kind of got stuck in for me was in my own private practice. And I was working with people in all kinds of, you know, it could be family relationships, marital relationships, but thematically, the thing that kept coming back for them over and over again was that they were deeply confused. They were blaming themselves. They were, they, they were on a constant rollercoaster. And I realized, like, it was very clear that what they were describing and whomever this was a, a partner, a family member, whomever it was, this person was clearly antagonistic and narcissistic. And I thought, what would happen if you gave them more of a framework? 'cause the same thing was happening to these patients every time. It didn't happen if it was matter, if it was a mother or a husband or even a best friend.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And I thought, what if we gave them education on narcissism? Not just making that all of it, but then also what this does to you and above all else, it doesn't change. And by giving these sort of simple educational structures, I was seeing clients sort of slowly improve because not only did they have the information, they had the validation and somebody telling them like, this, actually, this behavior in a relationship is not okay. Obviously the, the, the work you do and things like gaslighting made a huge difference because it, anyone who talks about gas, if you're talking about gaslighting, you are at some level talking about a narcissistic relationship. All narcissist gaslight, not all gaslight are narcissistic, is sort of the kind of the model there. And after doing all of this and writing a book, it really then sort of dawned on me, you know, physician healed thyself kind of thing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Like, this was happening in my life, but that wasn't top of mind for me. And when I start, when I think about the clunky workarounds I was engaging in and the amount of self blame and how baked into my DNA, it was, it really, that was a wake up call for me. I said, okay, so take the medicine yourself, Missy, and see how this works out for you. And it worked out beautifully. Like it really was a turning point for me to say, okay, if you're telling this to others, what would happen if you did this in your own life? And it was, it was a, made a huge difference.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you you for that. Um, very open answer. And without, uh, at, at the, at risk of being, um, making it about me, which I don't wanna be doing because I know that's a narcissistic strategy. , um, , actually, I was very interested in the fact that when I, uh, that you and I seem to be very aligned in what we wanted to put out there in the world to help people who were impacted by these kinds of behaviors. So I wrote the Gaslight Effect for very similar reasons. I was happening in my own life, and I also was seeing it rampantly in my practice. And nobody had written on the, the effect of gaslighting on people. And you are writing about how narcissism, the narcissistic personality affects the people who are the targets of that, or the, the partners of that, or the colleagues of the narcissist is so important. So thank you for doing that.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Thank you.

Dr. Robin Stern: So how do people become narcissists?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I mean, it's a personality. So it's a social developmental phenomenon. Nobody's born narcissistic, or by, by that argument, every newborn infant is narcissistic. 'cause they always make it about them, right? So it is, what we see though, is everyone is born with a temperament, which is sort of like the biological chunk of personality. And that temperament though, gets shaped by the environment. So that's a, if you, you can call it a biological vulnerability. You can even talk, talk about it as a biological strength. It depends on the personality. Some babies come into this world quite resilient, frankly. And that resilience ends up becoming a real asset for them, even as, as it's shaped by the world. But people who go on to become narcissistic and antagonistic, while this is not absolute in many cases, have more demanding difficult temperaments, they are difficult to soothe. They act out.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: They are, um, they are externalizing. And as they get a little older attention seeking, they're, they're tougher kids at, at the core of it. Now, that temperament, when it comes up against either one of two pathways, pathway one is more of an adversity pathway, could be adversity, trauma, neglect, abuse, disengaged misattuned caregivers that result in attachment fails, all of that. That's one pathway to narcissism. But again, I'm always gonna say this, most people who have those issues happen early in their lives, don't go on to become narcissistic. Right. Certainly having that temperament and that environment really ups the probability. The other pathway to narcissism is one of sort of overindulgence, you know, children who are told they're over special. You're more important than anyone else. We as a family are more important than anyone else. You're more special. The rules don't apply to you. So there children sort of raised on a very steady diet of entitlement. And the sense that you are more important, you're more valuable than other children. That too can be a pathway to narcissism. But again, many children raised that way, don't go on to become narcissistic. So even though these are the two pathways, and it's clearly an interaction between temperament and an environment, still, most people raised that way don't become narcissistic. It's not a modal kind of a personality form. But when you dig into the backstories of narcissistic people, you're typically gonna see one or the other. It's sometimes even a little bit of both.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for that. And, and I wonder how many people who are listening who are empaths Yeah. Are thinking, oh, now I understand. And, um, whether or not in fact, like in the gaslighting world or in gaslighting dynamics, um, you have this explanation trap that keeps you going Yeah. In the narcissist with the narcissist. Can you talk about that, please?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. That's a brilliant question because I, I always say it's the danger of the why, right? Because we desperately wanna know the why, why, why, you know, think, think about the true crime genre, right? That that is probably gotta be one of the most in demand podcasts and, and, uh, streaming genres out there. Why? Because people wanna know the why they wanna make sense of the world, and they wanna make sense of the danger of the world. Why would someone be a serial killer? Why would someone do these horrible crimes? Right? So now bring that, right, bring that into your living room. Why are they cheating on me? Why are they repeatedly lying to me? Why are they doing these harmful things when they proclaimed to love me? So, and I do think we make the erroneous assumption that if we understand the why, that we can master this, that we can make sense of it. And so, I, I always dance the why dance very carefully with clients. 'cause I said, obviously, I'm not gonna withhold information from you. We can talk about the why, but it's very, very important that you don't let the why fuel your justifications. Because there's a bottom line here. And the bottom line is their behavior in this relationship is unacceptable. And more importantly, it's harming you. You understanding the why is not gonna make it harm you any less, nor is it going to stop it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and I, I love that we're talking about this. 'cause I think it's, it's super helpful for people to, to understand that the more people try to make sense outta somebody else's behavior, the less they're in their own shoes. Try saying absolutely exactly what you just said. Is this acceptable? Do I, do I like it? Do I feel comfortable? Do I feel safe?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. And, and safety is everything, right? But I think most people are not taught how important safety is. And we use the term safety. I think when we use the term safety, so many people take it right to danger and physical danger and physical safety. Like is I, they'll say, this person's never laid a hand on me. This person's never hit me. As we know, many guest writers don't. Many narcissists don't. And that confuses people. 'cause even the word abuse and safety, they're often associated with physical safety. And I can't impress on people enough. Psychological safety is everything. And when we don't have it, we really can't show up as our true selves.

Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. And I wonder what your thoughts are about why it's so common for people to make excuses for someone. Mm-Hmm, .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Mm-Hmm. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Is it that same making sense of the world? Is it the, let me, let me not spend time looking at myself, but rather the other person? Or is it actually fascinating, like the true crimes to, um, to unpack that? Like, why is somebody like that? I don't get it. Is it so other?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I think it goes deeper than that. I think this is where we get into the trauma bonded dynamic. Because when you think of us human beings at the core of us, and I think it goes to very core human dynamics. We're attachment oriented creatures. We need other human beings. And when people don't need other human beings in the ca, like for example, in the case of someone who has a schizo oid personality or a psychopathic personality, that is viewed as abnormal, right? That to be with others is our sort of species mandate, if you will. So we're oriented towards that. And so when we develop trusting relationships, so obviously the original relationship would've been a parent or a caregiver. As we come in life, come on in life, it would be other family members, friends. As we've come into adulthood, it would be partners. There's an attachment investment that's been made in that other person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And we, in order to sort of as a survival need, and even that primal survival need left over from childhood, we, we need to be able to keep trusting this person. If we can't, our body really registers it as danger. We're not safe in the world. We're not attached to someone. We're all alone. So we attempt to keep that attachment going. And the most efficient way to make keep that attachment going is to view the offender. The person who's behaving badly, the narcissist or the gaslight, as it were, as there's a reason for their behavior. They don't mean it. They had a bad day. Maybe this is my fault. By doing this, you can maintain the relationship with the other person. And you can address that cognitive dissonance, that inner tension that is so uncomfortable within ourselves. But the more that happens over time, and keeping in mind that narcissistic relationships are very intermittent in their reward pattern, right? So there are good weekends, there are good days, there's a fun dinner out there is people thinking that your partner is wonderful or your family is great, whatever it is, there's good moments sprinkled in there that confuses people in these relationships. It's hard to hold onto multiple things being true at the same time. So, and

Dr. Robin Stern: It's also hard to walk away when part of the very hard,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Very hard, yeah. It's like, it's, it's the slot machine, right? Nobody wants to walk away from a slot machine. 'cause it's a con. It's conceivable. You'll win a million dollars. And so all of those complicated attachment oriented, kind of intermittent reinforcement models come into play. And people will say, physiologically, they feel kind of linked to this person, even though cognitively they're able to say, I know this isn't healthy. And that can bring up a lot of shame and isolation. And then you can throw in there practical factors, minor children, financial issues, culture, religion, duty, obligation. Those are very compelling features. And so when you put all that into a stew, these can feel like unbreakable relationships. And, and because they often play on core wounds in individuals that I'm not enough. Maybe this is my fault, maybe this is all I deserve. Those inner schemas and narratives also get pinged on. And you have a person who's incredibly, incredibly stuck. And a lot of that stuckness, not all of it, but a lot of it can be helped along by giving a person education on this, though, it's a pretty dark day for a person in a narcissistic relationship when they really do ease into this idea, or not even ease into it, but get it, see it and start to accept it that this isn't gonna change. This is it?

Dr. Robin Stern: Can I ask why you say, why did you say that? How do you know it's not gonna change?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: We don't have any, there's not a single randomized clinical trial that has been done with clients with clinically significant levels of narcissistic, um, behavior traits. Call it what you will, that show long-term, um, that show long-term treatment efficacy. There's, that doesn't exist at the entire literature. It's case-based literature. If a person who is narcissistic is to get therapy, we're talking at least once, maybe twice a week for multiple years. That's not accessible in the United States unless someone's got a lot of money. So now you're talking about 1% of the population or 5% of the population that could even afford an intervention, that's probably not gonna work. When I say work, I don't, I mean, a, it won't work sustainably 5, 10, 20 years down the road. B, it's not gonna work in the face of a significant stressor. When a narcissistic person is experiencing an ego threat, even if they go through all the therapy in the world, the first time that shame really comes percolating up from a probability standpoint, they're going to lash out again.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Maybe they'll apologize more quickly. And some people will say, listen, this many people, some people will stay. The narcissistic people will get, person will get some level of therapy. The needle will move a little, the place the needle moves to does not result in what anyone would ever call a healthy relationship. But the person in that relationship will say, you know what? The frequency of yelling is down to once a day. Mm-Hmm. . And while someone say, I don't wanna be yelled at once a day, they'll say this better than the 10. It was, I can live with this. Do I call this healthy? No, I think, but everyone has to make decisions for themselves. So they'll say, this is livable, but it's definitely not healthy.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I remember. Thank you for that answer. And I, and I think this is again, another, um, key idea that the person, and you said this in one of the videos that I watched, was narcissistic before they met you, they're narcissistic with you and they'll be narcissistic in their next relationship. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . So listening to that, just listening to that feels like, wow. So there's no hope. And when you say that it was a dark, it's a dark day when people find that out. So where do you go from there? Because I, I want this guy, right? I want this guy. We have a great sex life. We have a great life together. I want him, uh, there's no ho

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Well, there's, and I think that you just said, so we have a great sex life. Sex life. We have a great life together. When a client throws that at me, I'll say, tell me about your great life together. Break it down for me. Yeah. And what I'll sometimes get our very material answers. We go to our lake house in the summer, we, um, I love our house. So it's a physical structure. Um, we both like to play golf, right? Mm-Hmm. . But not, almost none of the language will ever be around psychological safety, being seen, being felt, being heard. So already, there's a mythology. People build up in their own lives about their narcissistic relationship. And part of the work of therapy and intervention with clients going through this is the very gently dismantling of that narrative structure, because they had to build that up to stay in the relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: But once you start poking at it, you're like, you like the house? And I get it, it's a nice house, but, but it is taking a psychological toll on you, right? So we get very invested in these structures. That's one thing. But I do believe there's a tremendous hope because what happens is people in these relationships, this isn't just about someone gaslighting you or lying to you. This is a betraying you. This is about somebody who's subjugating you. They're in essence saying, you don't get to be an independent person separate from this relationship. You exist in my service that is subjugation, and that's never gonna be okay for anyone. So I really think that the hope is, is that we're, that's being taken away is the hope around the false narrative. It's the hope around a certain kind of ending. They wanted to the story.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's the hope around wanting to grow old with someone or be from a happy close-knit family. But those are more ephemeral hopes. It's like they're, it's the loss of beliefs. The things you want it to be true are no longer true. But I actually believe a new hope can step in, which is the hope that there is a life for you where you might actually do some of the things that matter to you, live life in some ways that matter to you. So it might be that some people who actually may leave the relationship might say, I finally decided to go back to school. I finally got the dog I wanted. I am, you know, I'm finally seeing my friends regularly, which I couldn't do in this relationship. People who don't leave, which not everyone can leave, some people who don't leave will say, you know what?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Now I know all that running around the house and trying to make the perfect dinner and the perfect this, I don't care. I'll say, there's a frozen dinner in the fridge. Have at it. I'm going out to do X or Y because they say, I'm no longer trying to do the impossible. And please someone who cannot be pleased and stop wasting my time at this. So the loss of hope, it, this is why there's so much grief during the radical acceptance phase, because you're right, people said, I thought I was gonna grow old with this person, but then when they're really told, I said, if you grew old with this person, they wouldn't have cared for you. And so, and then they, they're like, you're absolutely right. And so for some folks, it's that wake up call of, yep, I had a cold. And they felt inconvenienced by that.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And I've seen many people who've gone through severe illnesses such as cancer, where their narcissistic partner would take umbrage at having to do things like drive them to a chemo appointment or things like that. So I think that that wake up call, people are saying, I get it. I see it, but it is still hard. And that's why I'm saying it. You don't, you we're not dismissive, like, oh, come on, you're lucky I got rid of the bu, but that this is hard, that this is grief. But to be very clear on what exactly it is that they're grieving can sometimes help people say, ah, yeah, these things I thought were there, were never there in the first place. So I thought I had them, but I didn't.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So thank you so well said. And, and, um, and I love that you are giving people hope and we, we are giving people hope. Mm-Hmm, Mm-Hmm. in this conversation, because it can be very sad. And as you said, the grief is intense when you're letting go of that fantasy, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Mm-Hmm. Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Robin Stern: That your life is like, the whole frame of your life may have to be dismantled. And yet the hope that you can go on beyond that is so significant in your words. Thank you. What happens though when you are, when you've left for, in your experience, when you've left a narcissistic relationship and, um, you're them with someone else who of course, and even in a healthy relationship, everyone has their own needs, right? Mm-Hmm. and asks something of you. How do people trust again? And how do people begin to, um, to use your word discern? Mm-Hmm. . What is important? Can you tell us about that?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's a process. And I have to say that people's relationship with trust kind of changes permanently after a narcissistic relationship. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna give rainbows and moonbeams happy endings here. People move more tentatively. I al I liken it to one of two things, like walking onto a pond where you're not sure if the ice is thick enough, or I always think of my cat walking across the comforter. She's very tentative, right? And I think that that really captures what a survivor looks like. They're like, can I trust this? And, you know, people will say, I, I don't, I don't run with the same kind of reckless abandon I once did, but they're saying I'm going a little too slow and it's a calibration. So I do think that that happens gradually. I tell people, especially when it comes to intimate relationships, they've ended a long term narcissistic relationship or narcissistic marriage, is to take at least a year off, you need a year by yourself.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Many people will even feel pressure from their friends, oh, get out there, start dating. And I'll say, Uhuh, you need at least a year of getting reoriented back to what matters to you. People say that all got lost. I mean, down to the silliest things, like, they're like, I don't even know what kind of breakfast cereal I like. Because I was told what I, like, I was told if I was hungry, I was told what time to sleep. And when they look back, there can sometimes even be shame. Like, I don't understand how I let this happen. But it didn't all happen in one day. These, these relationships are an indoctrination. So to undo indoctrination. So almost like a deprogramming, sometimes it's even the most fundamental needs and wants. Like, what do you like, you know? And they'll sometimes look at a menu and be overwhelmed and say, oh, you know what?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I think I'm gonna have the appetizer for dinner. And we'll own it and say, well, I tried to do that with my partner, so you're being ridiculous. And nobody does that. And so they, they start sort of playing with life, if you will, and saying, oh, I actually really like pineapple on a pizza, and that's what I'm gonna order. So it's the, even the the smallest things, giving themselves permission to reflect on how they feel that all feelings are valid. And then you get into this place, like you said, all in, in all relationships, needs will be expressed. Narcissistic people don't express needs. They express demands. There's a difference. A need is a is an interactive, like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a collaborative kind of a thing. I, I would, I'd love this, or I need this. And then that's hurt. And then you feel psychologically safe to know that need will be met. Again. People in narcissistic relationships are always doing at least twice the work, I'd say three times the work because they're not only silencing their own needs, they're chronically having to orient to the narcissistic person's needs. And they take responsibility for the entire relationship. I

Dr. Robin Stern: Wanna underline that. Can you say that again?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yep. People in narcissistic relationship are doing three times the work. They're not only having to tamp down or squelch their own needs. They have to spend all their time anticipating and meeting the narcissistic person's needs. And they take responsibility for the entire relationship. And so they're, they're running everything, right? So it's like a job where you're not able to delegate to anyone. And in a healthy relationship, it's happening on both sides. And for many people who've been through these relationships, it takes a minute when they start entering healthy friendships, for example, where, where someone says, oh, no, no, I'll take care of it. Or I'll drive, or I'll do that part. And there's a suspiciousness like, what, what's your angle here? Right? And it's, it's a very, very slow building up of that trusting connective tissue. And this is where I do see survivors stumble a lot.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And it takes, it takes time. That's what I tell them. It takes time. And that's why you don't want to rush. A lot of survivors need some time alone, some time again, to, because other people, for people who've been through narcissistic relationships, other people are experienced as a demand. I have to take care of them. I have to help them. I have to listen to them. I have to be there for them, because that was a survival behavior for so long. So I also do tell people, give yourself some time alone to get that nervous system back in online and then put yourself in with other people. So it's a dance and everyone sort of does it a little bit differently. But have I seen people come out of narcissistic relationships and go on to brilliant futures? Absolutely. In fact, really interesting ones because they're a little bit more savvy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: They're, in some ways, they feel like they're a little bit more brave. They know how people work. They're willing to trust their instincts and say, that's not okay. They're able to recognize when gaslighting is happening in real time and disengage. So there's some real skill sets that come if a person will allow themselves to have them. But it's a long, long process. And I would argue that as a person heals from one of these relationships, they kind of enter into a very new future. They do leave a lot of people behind, if you will, from that old life. The enablers of the narcissistic person, the narcissistic person themselves. You know, you, you, you build up a new kind of network of people who actually see you and are there for you. It's a process. It's a process. But I've seen amazing, amazing, um, processes of healing in people who have gone through these relationships, whether they stay or go, quite frankly.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I would imagine that it's also a very emotional process. 'cause I'm thinking about in my own practice, when people realize that, um, they are entitled to reclaim their reality. Uh, that they're entitled to have a, a future where somebody, um, where they're not on guard all the time, or, or where they're not second guessing themselves all the time. It's very emotional. Mm-Hmm. , do you find that as well?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Oh, absolutely. It's very, very, and there's a lot of emotion here. And keep in mind too, anyone who's been in one of these relationships has had their emotions behind a dam for years, even decades, right? Yes. So, emotions feel like really fraught and moderately terrifying territory to be in a narcissistic relationship requires some level of dissociation. 'cause if you stay in your emotion and you express that emotion, you're going to be shut down, shamed, or pathologized for having a feeling. So as you're now in settings where you actually can have a feeling, there's a lot. For example, every survivor I know, if they cry for some reason, they'll say, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm crying. And I'll say, it's like saying you're crying. You're sorry for breathing. I mean, this is a very natural response to this situation. Can we, you know, and can we be with these tears? But when emotions are, not only were shame, but they represented a place of danger. It was almost like a turtle taking off a shell that

Dr. Robin Stern: The moment that you're gonna get planned for everything that just happened, because

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So it, it, it's creating safe spaces. This is where therapy support groups, all of that becomes so important for whether peers or, you know, mental health professionals can say, not only is it important you feel these emotions, it's necessary, but it, again, it's all new. You know, physical therapy might teach someone to walk again. Psychotherapy teaches someone to feel again.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I love that. Thank you.

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Dr. Robin Stern: I'd love for you to talk about your book a bit. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . What, what are the, uh, what are the new things that you said? I mean, you've been writing and you the author, you've authored several books in the past. Mm-Hmm. . Um, what about this particular book? Mm-Hmm. , uh, do you want us to know?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: This book is about healing? How we say all the books of that are that, uh, take on the topic of narcissism are always about the narcissist. What else is new? Everything's about them. And this book is really about how a person can navigate this process. And here's the thing. I mean, nar, it's narcissism is a very unpleasant quality for someone to have in a relationship. It really is. And somebody would say, well, what do you want for the narcissistic people? I'd say, I'd want them to have that moment of grace when they can recognize that this life would be so much better for them if they could just do the work and be present with others. It's just, it's a matter of wanting to do that work. Trauma survivors do it every day. People living with addiction do it every day. People living with depression do it every day.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: There's no reason a person with narcissism can't step up to the plate. It's, it's a choice not to. I, I would, I, I've tried to make this a more compassionate take on this. So making it less about lambasting the narcissistic person and more about what, how can we get help you as the individual in this relationship? 'cause I think people get really caught in a guilt loop. Like, I feel so bad that I'm thinking about my own mother this way, or I feel so bad that I'm thinking about my own adult child this way. These are very close, important relationships. And so there's, and so I'll say, you now know how this works. This book is really about how do these relationships affect us? What's happening in our bodies, our minds? What's happening for us? You know, what's the psychic toll of these relationships and how do they hold our lives back?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And, and it is, yes, it does dismantle the hope that, 'cause I think what a lot of people want is the so-called jackpot out of the slot machine that they'll change. And this will be what I always wanted it to be. And I have to sort of, I always say, I get that, but it is a childlike fantasy. Let's lift that one out. Right? But there's still a you here, and it's a constant reacquainting a person to them, to their you Here, this is you, this is you, this is you. So it is a book about the, the person who's in the relationship, rather than one more deep dive on what makes the narcissistic person tick. And also what that sort of process of healing really looks like. From radical acceptance to the grief that follows to what you do, whether you stay in the, the relationship or not.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: How to manage on ongoing gaslighting in the relationship if you do stay, how to manage it, even when you meet new people. And then how to excavate, as I put it, that, that, that sense of self, that who you are and pulling it away. 'cause we are entirely defined by the narcissistic person. I hope they like this. I can't, I'm, I hope they're proud of me when I tell them this instead of, you got, you did the accomplishment. Be with it. Be proud of it, and don't worry about what they think about it. These are tough cycles to break, but that's what this book's about.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for writing it, and I'm gonna come back to it in a minute. But I wanna, um, jump on your saying gaslighting here, because why? I wanna ask you why, uh, gaslighting is a favorite strategy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I mean, you know, better than I, it's a power dominance and control control strategy, right? It allows, it allows the narcissistic person,

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. I'm sorry, but, um, for stepping on your words, but it's also that not just power and control, but power and control in that particular kind of way where you're deflecting or you're blaming, or you're shaming or you are lying in a particular way to spin the reality. Mm-Hmm. ,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Right. Well, it's a destabilization technique, right? Recent gaslighting is such a one stop shop for narcissistic folks is it does so many things at the same time. Not only does it destabilize the other person and allow the narcissist to maintain power, dominance, and control, I always view it as like, it's, it's like a bit of a, a, it's like a cleanse for them. They get to project all of their shame and everything like that on someone else. Like, I'm not bad. You're all these bad things. So it's like cleaning house for them. So let's

Dr. Robin Stern: Underline that too.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: . Yeah. Yeah. They get, it's, it's their, it's their, it's their sort of vomiting it all on other people. Mm-Hmm. . And then, and then other people have to hold the bag. And in fact, I've, Dan Shaw writes a lot about narcissism, and I'm, I'm taking his words and simplifying them quite a bit. But basically what he's implying is that when we are in a narcissistic relationship, we become the storage unit for their shame. You know, because that's, we hold it all for them. And so we walk around with that humiliation and that shame and that icky, icky feeling. And that that shame in people in the relationship often gets translated into guilt and pity. The shame in the narcissistic person often translates into anger. But no matter what the, the drive for the narcissistic person is to self perceive themselves as perf perfect and pristine. So to maintain that sense of perfectionism, they're always polishing. And then when they're always polishing, that means they gotta put the junk somewhere and they put it on someone else. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: You've talked about shame a number of times today, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how shame can keep people stuck in that narcissistic relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Oh, it's an excellent question. It's, it's shame is such a shame has like one of the best seats in the house in a narcissistic relationship because not only is it a driving dynamic for the narcissistic person themselves, right? For them that shame is always operating unconsciously, but it's like this constant gurgling tummy ache for them. They're, I can't quite identify it. And so they, they'll do anything to keep that shame at bay, or they will lash out at other people when it, when it gets, when it comes up too high. But the other person in the relationship, as you said, feels a sense of shame for not being able to get it right. I was just talking to a survivor the other day and who was married to someone who's narcissistic. And the narcissistic person was so rude and so abusive that she couldn't bring certain guests into the house.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So it was one of these moments where the guest, and it was, it was a long story, but the long story short was in, instead of bringing the guest into the home, she said to the one of the guests, I'm gonna have you wait at a coffee shop for me for an hour, hour and a half, and then I'm gonna come back and meet you. The guest was very warm, kind person and said, sure, no problem. And they sat there and took their computer, but the person in the relationship was overwhelmed with shame, even though the person was amenable, even though they fully understood the, the narcissism of that other person. When I asked them, what was that shame about? She had said, I, I feel ridiculous. Here I am in this marriage, it's my home too. And yet I feel as though I can't bring someone in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And I said, well, what would happen? But in the past when you did bring someone like this into the home, well, there, there would be this anger and this rage and this huffing around, and I'd feel embarrassed and ashamed for this person and who, who I brought into my home for being abused. So I said, you now see it clearly, and if anything, you've now protected someone you care about from this terrible narcissistic person. You've tamped down the conflict. You don't give a about this narcissistic person in your life. This was someone who's caught in a long-term marriage and couldn't get out of it. And so you don't care if they live, they die. You don't care. So you actually ended up by seeing the narcissism clearly making a choice, but the shame was constantly there, the sense of, I'm not in command of this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I'm not able to communicate with this person. I can't make it work though. And, and then people say, this is such a mess. I don't want anyone to see how bad my relationship is. People feel a sense of shame for choosing to stay the person with the nice house and the lifestyle saying like, okay, I sold out because I stayed in this comfortable home and are comfortable vacations, and I stay in this crappy relationship where this person treats me horribly. And so people, again, they feel like sellouts. But you have to remember too, narcissistic relationships only fe uh, only fester because also they have an audience, and those are the enablers. And so there's a whole chorus of enablers around the person saying, oh, come now. They're so wonderful and you're so lucky. Like the narcissistic person often has a very deceiving forward facing kind of, you know, per persona, if you will.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And so the, the person will feel ashamed that everyone thinks they're great. I can't make this work, like, that's wrong with me and what's wrong with me? So that whole complicated stew leaves people feeling very, very ashamed. And even the trauma bonding people understanding, like, I know this is an unhealthy relationship, but I just can't see a path forward. I can't see a way out of this. And then people feel incompetent. A lot of the shame in a narcissistic relationship for the person who's sort of enduring it all is a sense of almost like in incapacity or incompetence, like, why can't I figure this out?

Dr. Robin Stern: Right. And can you say a little bit more about trauma bonding for people? Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Know that term?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. So trauma bonding is the sort of, it's experience is sort of a relatively unbreakable connection that a person has in a relationship, in a very unhealthy relationship that's characterized by ebbs and flows, highs and lows, good days and bad days. And again, it works on this model of intermittent reinforcement. So that means that the person who's in the relationship experiencing these, this backing and forthing, often has to do the heavy lifting to maintain the attachment of coming up with justifications and ways of keeping those good days going. So the person who's being harmed in the relationship takes responsibility for making the, the relationship work. And so it is, whether it's crafting narratives, whether it's becoming a one-stop shop being all things to that person, their, their sex partner, their house cleaner, their problem solver, their life coach, their everything, that you try to be all things to this, to the narcissistic person, you or the, the harmful person. And then they won't leave you. You, you become, you try to become what we'd call indispensable. There can be a lot of magical thinking about these relationships. So this sense of, I'm never gonna meet someone like this. This is my soulmate, this is my person. I see the, I hear the word soulmate, and I'm immediate, like trauma bond. It's immediate. I know it right away. It's, it's a crazy

Dr. Robin Stern: Word. I hear it. And I, I think deep trouble.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yes, exactly. Deep troubles ahead. And, and in, and in all seriousness, it's a, it's a, it's, it really does speak to that magical thinking. And I'll, I tell folks, tell clinicians a lot when I'm lecturing to them, to me, a real tell in a trauma bonded relationship is when I am talking with a client and they're, they're, you know, they're, they're telling me there's bad good all over the map, confusion, all the stuff. And I'll say to them, you talked a lot about this relationship. Can you tell me what you really like? Can you tell me you, you love them so much? Tell me what you love about them. Tell me what you like about them. Usually it's silence for a minute. And there's a lot of sputtering, like, well, well, eh, let me tell. And there's like that, it's a lot of stumbly stumble. Whereas in a healthy relationship, the answer comes quick. Like, we, I, I, I love them. We, we respect each other. We have the, we've grown up, you know, we've grown, we're growing together. There's a lot

Dr. Robin Stern: The feeling,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Right? There's growth, there's emotion, there's respect, there's kindness. There's being seen, there's shared love and adventure and, and, and activity, whatever it may be in a trauma bonded relationship, people really, really struggle with naming what it is about the relationship that, if you will, makes it like that, what they like about the person, right? Because really what's keeping them stuck is this sort of unnameable, an unnameable sort of physiological thing in trauma bonded relationship.

Dr. Robin Stern: They're calling a soulmate, right? Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: They're calling the soulmate feeling.

Dr. Robin Stern: They have that feeling. Mm-Hmm, . It's very, very intense. And, and I didn't mean to, you know, realize just a few minutes after I said that. I recognize that also from my clients that that feeling of, um, that thought that I have, this is big trouble. When I said it, I was smiling and I realized it's not funny, you know? Mm-Hmm. . It's not funny when you recognize that and that, um, that someone's in trouble when they say it's my soulmate. Such a wonderful feeling, but such a, um, uh, a flag, such a red flag of bonding and mm-hmm, .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Mm-Hmm. . And we, and you see the soulmate, I mean, trauma bonds can also happen through a relationship happening too quickly, right? One of narcissistic relationships have a funny pacing in the beginning. Many do go too fast, right? And that too fastness is very disorienting, right? The love bombing and all of that. There's an inconsistency in the communication. You'll have this fabulous night, and there's lots of, I love you, I love you, this is the best. And then crickets for a while. But the soulmate language often comes in relationships that happen too quickly too. I finally found my soulmate. So people are looking at, you're like, you've agreed to marry this person within two months of meeting. Like, what? And then, um, and then you realize they're talking to the soulmate nonsense, and you recognize the speed with which it happened. The soulmate is almost like a, a a a language of justification and rationalization, right? This only happens once in a lifetime. So I'm gonna have to lock this down. It becomes an impulse purchase. Nobody ever likes an impulse purchase. Right?

Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. So I know, um, I don't wanna run out of time before I ask you to tell everyone, um, what should they look for in themselves to know that maybe that's a narcissistic guy I'm with? Uh, what are the red flags for someone who suspects that they may be in a narcissistic relationship? Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: . Well, one thing I say as part of the red flag conversation is to be compassionate with yourself, is that it can take longer than you think. I think a lot of people think they can pick this thing out on the first date or the second date obvious. If it's glaring, you know, somebody's rude to the server in a restaurant or a coffee shop, or they're talking over you, or they're saying, you know, absolutely inflammatory things, that's not a red flag. I mean, that's like a five alarm fire. So I think the red flag by definition's a little bit more subtle, and this is where it gets challenging. I even think good therapists sometimes take eight to 10 sessions to figure out if a client has narcissistic tendencies, because it's buried under so much other stuff. Narcissistic people are charming and charismatic and compelling. So by the time we kind of sort of start sort of sorting through all that stuff that we are, it takes a minute, even for those of us who are, you know, really incisively looking at someone.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So in a new relationship, I have to tell you, modally, when I've talked with folks who are like, Ugh, this person's narcissistic takes anywhere from eight months to two years. This is not something that happens in the first few weeks. Now, the reconstruction will often show people like, yeah, there's this weird thing that happened on the fourth date or the fifth date. And some things might be like, for example, that inconsistency in communication. There'll be a flurry of communication, then they'll go silent for a while. And the person, especially if it's a new relationship, will say, oh, I don't wanna respond and seem needy, but did I say something? Did I do something? Did I offend them? So now you're already in that, what did I do? What did I do?

Dr. Robin Stern: Because rather than thinking, I don't wanna go out with somebody who's gonna go silent for three days.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Correct, correct. That's exactly right. So you now, the self-blame cycle starts. And you might only be like, this is only the third time you've seen this person. But sometimes, and, but people feel as though they've been told, you are, um, you're being too dismissive. Like, well, people are busy. That's why they don't communicate. Say, in which case, I'm, I'm, I'll tell folks this is how this person behaves when they're too busy. Does this work for you? 'cause this will be how likely, how it always is. So you'll see that kind of inconsist inconsistency in communication. Um, some people will say that they saw a sensitivity to feedback or criticism of any kind. So they'll say early on, they might have said something like, um, I don't know. Oh, wow, that's so cool that you were able to get that job even though you weren't able to finish college.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's meant to be a compliment. Like, look at, look at what you've done. And then the narcissistic person's like, what are you trying to say that like, a college person's better than me? And, and you'll then the person will be stumbling. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I meant. Again, you're now in this already in this quickly trying to fix the messes kind of communication. There's this real sensitivity. You'll even, you'll go to a concert with them, they'll park in the wrong parking lot after you telling them, Hey, I think that's the right parking lot, Leslie, what do you think? I don't know how to park. They do park in the wrong parking lot. And then they're grumbling, like, oh, like, what is it now? You're the genius and you're of our time, and now you feel as though you're being demeaned and you didn't do anything. Those kinds

Dr. Robin Stern: Of things. And then walk away. And you're thinking, I wonder why he did that rather than, I

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Don't like that. That wasn't okay. That wasn't okay. That's the kind of stuff. But I think a lot of people will say, dating is so hard, and I don't feel like I can just toss someone on one thing. And I say, and, and I, I use an old grad, grad school hack as I put it, is that, you know, I was taught that the first time something happens, it happens. The second time happens, something happens, it's a coincidence, and the third time it happens, it's a pattern. And then we sit up straight and we pay attention. I'm like, give them, give them a rule of threes. And if something happens three times, this is it. This is what you're dealing with.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I have so enjoyed listening to you, learning from you, talking with you today, and I thank you so much for being my guest, for coming on this podcast and, um, for letting people know that gaslighting and narcissism are walking on the same landscape and Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, I really want you to tell people now, where, where can, where can people find you?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So you can find me a lot of places. Please read the book, get the book, read the book. It's in, you can get the, the print copy. You can get the audio book. So a lot of, a lot of the tidbits are in there. I also have two other books too. And you can go on my website, which is dr ramini.com, and get that information. I have a healing program for people who are experiencing narcissistic relationships. We meet every month, a few times a month, and you could go to my website to find that healing program. I have a YouTube channel. Do

Dr. Robin Stern: You wanna join that or do you have to be a therapy patient to join that?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Um, nope. You can be anyone. Anyone. It, it can be anyone can join that. Yep. Um, and then I have a, um, my YouTube channel. We have new content every day, um, and we have a new platform we're launching. It's called a Dr. Romney network, and you can you find that on Fireside, which is a, which is sort of a, a, a new, uh, a newish platform developed by Mark Cuban and, and, and associates there that, um, and Fallon Fini. And that what this, what this, um, what this platform allows for is more engagement. So it's, people sign up for that. Then they'll, they'll see like people, you know, let's say you were on the platform. I'd say, okay, Robin, let's talk about your story. And you'd come up and people would learn from Robin's story or might be able to come up and share their stories.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And, you know, we have guests and things like that that he can ask questions of. So we're just starting that. We're launching that in about a week. So people congratulations can check that out. Thank you. So we have a lot of, lot, lot of irons in the fire, and, um, but that might, I do that. So there's different ways that people can get the information that suits them, because I know that not everyone is able to get therapy as consistently as they want or get the information they want. And so this is all of what we're doing is meant to be a compliment to whatever therapy people are trying to access or even to learn how to choose a therapist that works in this space. So, yeah. So that, tho those are the kinds of things we're doing. And obviously I'm on all social media. You can find me at Dr. Ramini and if you follow me on social media, you'll see announcements about all the things we're doing.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, Dr. Ramini, it really has been a pleasure. I hope to have another conversation with you in the not too distant future. We are colleagues walking the same landscape.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Absolutely. I'm so, I'm so honored to meet you. I love your work, and I'm so glad we got to talk today.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you very much. Thank

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you everyone, and see you next time on The Gaslight Effect podcast.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.