Podcast Player Episode 046

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Hello everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm delighted to have with me today my guest, Anne Blythe, who is the creator and host of the Betrayal Trauma and Recovery Podcast. I was a guest for Anne sometime ago, and just thrilled to have you here with me. And I'm gonna leave it to you to tell our audience about your work. So compelling and so important. Thank you. Anne. Please tell us about yourself,

Anne Blythe: Dr. Stern. I am so honored to be here when you came. Please

Dr. Robin Stern: Call me Robin. Please call me Robin.

Anne Blythe: Um, I'm sort of, I'm starstruck, so it's hard for me to call you Robin. But, um, when you came on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, it was so delightful. I absolutely loved having you on, so thank you. I'm honored to be here. Um, so I started out going down a rabbit hole I would call of pornography addiction recovery with my husband at the time, not knowing that I was being emotionally and psychologically abused and sexually coerced. I wasn't educated about that. And the therapist that we saw did not educate me about emotional and psychological abuse or sexual coercion. And as you know, a big piece of that is gaslighting constantly. And, um, as I started studying abuse and eventually, um, started BTR, I learned that gaslighting is a big component. So at BTR and our website is btr.org.

Dr. Robin Stern: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm gonna stop you because your story itself is so compelling, if I may. Yeah, yeah. Um, bring, bring you back there. When you say you started going through the rabbit hole Mm-Hmm. Or down the rabbit hole. Can you say what, um, led you to, to begin that exploration and going down that rabbit hole?

Anne Blythe: Yeah. Well, um, even though I didn't know to call it gaslighting at the time, something was definitely wrong in my marriage when I, when I was married, I've now been divorced for years. But, um, I knew something was wrong. I was trying to figure it out. I did discover, uh, that he was using pornography and we, that just wasn't something that was I wanted in my marriage. And I'd also told him expressly before we got married, that that was not something that I wanted in my marriage. And he totally agreed with me before we got married. He was like, oh, yeah, pornography is not for me. I don't like it. And so, uh, the way he lived his life, he was very, um, he still is very religious, shows up at church, presents himself as an upstanding member of comm the community who would never be into, you know, untoward or CD activities.

Anne Blythe: And so, um, it was really shocking. And I, the first place I went to was maybe pornography addiction recovery. 'cause I thought, this is a man who apparently does not want to do this. He told me he didn't wanna do it. He has an addiction problem. He's ashamed, he feels bad, so he is trying to hide it. So, um, that rabbit hole was interesting because no one in the pornography addiction recovery, I call it sort of industrial complex at the time, was, was indicating to me that I was a victim of abuse. And so I was being gaslit by therapists as well, that I needed to support him in his recovery, that he was doing well because he was trying to tell the truth. And he was so ashamed. And, um, it was, it was just, it was a mess.

Dr. Robin Stern: Lots of explanations for what was happening, but not the real explanation. Yeah. But let me, let me take you back a little bit. Before that, what were, what, what were you doing before you got married? What, what led you, how did you meet? What was your background? Tell us a little bit about you.

Anne Blythe: So I was a school teacher. I taught English, and I have a master's degree in education. And I traveled a lot and was very interested in being married, but not so much that I was going to marry anybody. So at 30, I met my husband and I was very clear about what I wanted. Um, in fact, I was so clear that as the abuser that he is, he was able to mirror to me exactly what I presented to him as what I wanted. And so he was like my soulmate, right? Because I had said, I want someone who does this. He's like, oh, I do that. I want someone who skis. Hey, I'm a skier. I want someone who's interested in, you know, whatever. And so he just mirrored back to me everything. We got married very quickly because at the time, at 30, and I had dated a lot, I thought, and, you know, I'd been around the block a few times. I thought, this is what I've been looking for. This is exactly what I've been looking for. When

Dr. Robin Stern: You meet your soulmate, why not get married?

Anne Blythe: Yeah, yeah. And fast, right? And fast. So yeah, we got married very quickly, and very soon I started realizing this is not what I signed up for. Something is very wrong. Um, I mean, there's so many words for it these days. People, narcissism is a big buzzword, right? Everybody's calling everybody a narcissist. He would for sure qualify as that. I, not, not so much in the like, diagnostic sense, but like, if he took some kind of internet quiz, like for sure he'd qualify for that. So I'm not trying to like diagnose him or anything. But then, then there's like borderline personality disorder. There's sex addict, there's pornography addict, there's conman, there's, um, serial cheater, right? You, there's a number of things that you could call this person. Abuser is another one. And abuser is the one that I most resonate with because for me, um, especially dealing now with women who are married to this type of man, it is the one I think that that describes it the best because it's a choice that they make, I believe.

Anne Blythe: And they continue to make those choices. Some people maybe are out of control of their choices. I don't know it, the good news is as victims, we don't need to worry about what caused the problems and why, why they're doing it so much as we need to get to safety. And really quick as I speak, I, I realize that there are women who are making really bad choices at BTR at my organization, we only deal with women who have been abused by men. So I always speak in a gender segregated way, but I don't want that to, um, to like alarm people. I know that there are abusive women out there. I know that there are women who make bad choices. So as you hear me say that, I always get that comment and I'm like, I realize that it's just that my organization is only for women. Um, and we, so that's just how I speak. When I, when I talk,

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I understand. I, um, often get that comment myself, because when I write about gaslighting and speak about gaslighting, it's often the she who's being the gas it and the he mm-Hmm. who's being the gaslight. Because in my private practice over the, the many years, decades, over the many decades, I, um, have mostly seen women who have been gaslighted by men. Although, like you, I know that many women gaslight men and many women are gaslighted by other women and family members. But, uh, the, the pairing that I see most often is women as the, the target of the gaslighting. Right. But even before that, um, I'm curious to know if you would be, um, willing to share how you were feeling when you were in the relationship before you identified the gaslighting, the abuse, what was going on for you when you, you married your soulmate, and yet as things progressed, you started to feel a shift in the relationship. So can you, can you tell our listeners, because that's very meaningful to people to hear. Well, wait a minute. You know, I, I went through this and here I am on the other side.

Anne Blythe: Yeah.

Anne Blythe: I just knew something was wrong, something was not right. And I, you know, working with victims like I do all the time, um, victims are different, right? Our personalities are all different. We deal with the gaslighting in different ways. Um, I was a confronter, so the second I felt like something was wrong, um, I would also say I'm very confident in my own feelings. So when I felt like something was wrong, I believed myself and I confronted him, and then, then I didn't back down. I wasn't like, oh, hmm, maybe I'm crazy. I was like, Nope. I know I'm not crazy. So something is wrong here. And, um, I I, I tell people that even if you're a very bad victim, like I was , I was like so bad at it. It was, I was not very good at it. What does that mean? You still get abused. You still get abused if you, if you remain in proximity to the abuse because the, um, he just continues to lie or gaslight or whatever to get out of it. Right? So anyway, I I just didn't feel it was right.

Dr. Robin Stern: When you say that you were not a good victim, what do you mean?

Anne Blythe: I mean, that I never, uh, whatever he was trying to get me to do, I didn't do that thing. Usually now I ended up doing the thing because I didn't leave for a while. Right. So that is one of the things he wanted me to do, that I, that I, that I did do. I stayed with him while I was trying to figure it out. But in terms of, um, let's say he was trying to guilt me or gaslight me into making dinner, let's just pretend Mm-Hmm. I for sure would not make dinner. Like it never, never fruited what he wanted. Um, and one of the reasons why was because when I would sense that something wasn't quite right and that whatever he was doing or saying was aimed to get me to do something in my head, I thought, well, that's not a good way to have a relationship.

Anne Blythe: If I do that. And he's like, lying or manipulating me to do this thing, even, like, I'm not going to do it because that's gonna start a very dangerous precedent. I don't want him to think that lying or manipulating or being really immature is going to work. Mm-Hmm. in this relationship. Yeah. And so I, uh, he even said to me once being the also misogynist that he was, um, you just never do what you're supposed to do. You know, like, I'm supposed to get mad and then you're supposed to back off. You're supposed to be like, oh, he's mad. That makes him mad, so I better not do that thing. Instead I was like, oh, you're mad and you're screaming at me. Well, that's not going to work. So I'm now for sure not gonna do that thing, whatever it was. And usually it wasn't anything, um, that was, that I wanted to do, either it wasn't like a good thing. It would be like things like, stop asking me questions. Right? And I'm like, I'm not gonna stop asking my husband questions about where he went at one o'clock in the morning. Mm-Hmm. on a weeknight. Exactly. Sorry.

Dr. Robin Stern: And yet there you were, as you said, a few minutes ago, very, um, importantly, really staying longer than perhaps you could have because you were trying to figure it out or make sense of it, and how amazing that we do that, right? Yeah. Because it's sometimes, especially when you don't know what, what's going on, you're really trying every way to figure it out while you're together. Like, is it because he had, what, what did you offer up to yourself as the possible explanations for him?

Anne Blythe: The main one was his pornography addiction. So that I, I also delved a little bit into maybe borderline personality disorder, uh, some type of personality disorder, maybe narcissistic personality disorder. There was, um, a brief stint, when I say rabbit hole, it's like, there's all these things, right? Um, of like anger management classes that he was, he was maybe traumatized by his, um, family of origin, you know, that kind of thing. And, and, and by the way, all of those might be true, but it doesn't mean that his current behaviors aren't abusive. And also there are people who all over the place have a traumatic childhood and don't choose abuse. So that didn't matter to me. I was like, whatever. You know? No.

Dr. Robin Stern: And, and even if he had all these different reasons why he was abusive and he was yet, and he was in fact abusive, it doesn't mean you have to hang out in the relationship while you are trying to figure it out. And yet, we often as women are stay attached because we really are trying to figure it out and try to figure it out. Sometimes distract us, distracts us from actually standing in our own shoes and thinking, this is completely unacceptable. Yeah. Not one more minute.

Anne Blythe: Yeah. I think the other thing that's very interesting in that scenario is that you unknowingly, and I wanna say, well, intentionally well in, well, and, and you're well-intentioned, I don't know how to Mm-Hmm, what verb to use there. And you're very well-intentioned as you are. You're actually asking someone who's willing to lie to you to explain something to you. And then you're taking that information in as if it were appropriate information to be absorbing when it's not at all. And so, like, you wouldn't say, okay, well, did you ask a compulsive liar? You know, this, this, and this. People would be like, well, why did you ask a compulsive liar that they're always going to lie to you? And that's the situation here is that you're trying to figure out what's going on. While they don't want you to figure out what's going on.

Anne Blythe: So anything that you say or ask, they're going to tell you a reason or explanation, or maybe even like flatter you very kind, loving words in order to stop you from understanding what is really happening. I still don't know exactly what happened. I'm sure that way more things happened than I know about. And, um, I, he, I don't think he listens to what I say, but if he did, I think he'd probably be smiling thinking, oh, there's so many more things that she doesn't know. Rather than listening and thinking, oh, I did all those bad things, I might wanna stop instead of thinking that, which he wasn't, which she, I don't think he'd ever think he's thinking, Ugh, man, she has no idea. And that's what's scary to be in an intimate, um, relationship with someone who is willing to allow you, because they don't care about you at all to live in a completely different reality than what is reality. It's very, very, very psychologically dangerous.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. And how long were you married?

Anne Blythe: Seven years.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm. . And how much of that time was this going on? When did you begin to discover it? When were you, um, uh, so disturbed or distraught about the goings on that you started to go to anger management class and pornography school and or don't do pornography school and

Anne Blythe: Yeah. Um, pretty, pretty soon. It was very, very soon after marrying him. Um, how did

Dr. Robin Stern: You get him to do that?

Anne Blythe: He was really great. And this is where the gaslighting came in, because I was being gaslit by him. But then secondarily through therapists and clergy, he was very good at getting them to think that he was great. He was awesome. And I had, you know, I just asked too many questions and I was too, um, intense or something. I don't know what his, uh, stuff like that. Like, I wouldn't really like stay in my box. I had this box I was supposed to stay in, and I would not stay in it. And so I was kind of the problem. Um, like for example, one of the ones that he'd often tell people, which was also true, so it was very confusing, was that he worked from home much of the time. And I would interrupt him in his work. And that he would tell people was annoying because I'd like walk down and be like, Hey, do you want lunch?

Anne Blythe: Right? Or something, or, Mm-Hmm. like, ask him a question. And some days he was fine. Some days it was not a problem at all. It, everything was fine. Other days it was like I was the worst person in the world for asking him if he wanted to eat lunch. And I came to find out that a lot of the time it was because I interrupted his porn use. Of course, he was in there with the door shut, wanting to do that or something else. Um, I do remember one time I thought, okay, I'm not going to interrupt him at all. And I did. I, I didn't, I mean, I didn't think I interrupted him too much. It wasn't like it was every five minutes or something, but I snuck down into the basement and listened through the door to be like, what is he doing in there? And I could very clearly hear that he was watching, um, YouTube videos of BMX bikes. So it was like, okay, so you don't want your wife to talk to you so that you can just do whatever you want, which is watching, I mean, even porn fine, but BMX bikes fine. But like, he just wanted to do whatever he wanted, whatever that was, when he wanted to do it without having me know about it or even talk about it. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: And what was happening, Anne, in the rest of, I mean, sorry. I mean, I didn't even react to that, which is how awful, and sorry that you had to come upon it in that way to be so startled and, and, or maybe not even so startled, but so, so hurt. Um, but what was happening in the rest of your family? What kind of feedback were you getting and did you early on talk about having kids and what happened and Yeah, tell me a little bit about your bigger family.

Anne Blythe: So I wanted to have children, so I got pregnant right away. Um, we had my first child 11 months after we got married. Had I not been pregnant, had I not had, um, my son, I pretty sure I would've gotten divorced very quickly. But when you have a child, you're trying to figure it out, you're trying to make it work. Um, and I would say 80% of the time, he was a delightful, wonderful husband. Helped with laundry, helped with dinner, um, was really good at yard projects, you know, stuff like that. Um, so I, it's not like they're miserable all the time. So it was, that was very confusing too, because I had this great husband, at least what I thought was a great husband who would lose it every once in a while, is what I thought. Right? And why is he losing it every once in a while?

Anne Blythe: And it, he would yell, he would get mad at just the weirdest things. It didn't make sense. There was a lot of stuff that just didn't make sense for me. Um, logic is my love language. It's not one of the five love languages, but it's my, it's my seventh love language or whatever someone would call it. Logic is just where I, my happy place. And so it was very, very confusing for me. 'cause I was like, that just doesn't make sense. And I, I usually in the moment can see it doesn't make sense. And so, um, I was like, you know, 20% of the time just confused and trying to figure it out. Um, and because he was so great, he happily went to therapy, happily went to church, happily went to, you know, all the, all the stuff. And he happily, once he, once he admitted he was a porn addict, he happily went to 12 step for Sexaholics Anonymous. And

Dr. Robin Stern: I wanna build, I wanna stop you for a minute because I wanna build on what you said about your love li your love language being logic. One of the most, um, mind-bending things about gaslighting and gaslight is somehow they create logic to their gaslighting, right? Mm-Hmm. . So of course he had to do this because whatever the, this is because you weren't doing that. Whatever the that is, and when you think about it in your own mind, especially if logic is a love language for you, you're trying to, to sequence it. Okay? So actually, if I hadn't done that, if I hadn't interrupted him, then maybe he wouldn't have gone nuts. So my interrupting was the problem. And you can get lost in this kind of gaslighted, like, gaslighting language that is logical, but it's not logical.

Anne Blythe: Not logical. I did not do that. Which was, to him the biggest problem that when he would say, the problem is you interrupt me at work, and that's why I'm mad. I would say, no, it's not

Dr. Robin Stern: Good for you.

Anne Blythe: I, I don't know why you're so mad. Is that because you're looking at porn? Is it because you're lying to me? Is it because you have a personality disorder? But it's not that, 'cause that doesn't make sense. I'm just asking you if you wanna eat lunch, this is not a big deal. You know? Um, and then we'd end up fighting like a lot, and I would generally win the debate.

Dr. Robin Stern: Interesting. So he wanted you to buy his logic, right? And you weren't buying it. Mm-Hmm.

Anne Blythe: , no. And I do remember one day he was very mad and he was like, I'm an attorney, , sorry, I'm an attorney. Why do you always win these debates? And I said, and I shouldn't have said it, but I said, because I'm smarter than you. Like I, you don't, you don't make sense. I, I didn't really think I was smarter than him, but in the moment I said that. But what I really did think was, this doesn't make sense. I can't make it make sense. And when you tell me something and it's like still not making sense, I that's not working. It was very interesting because he'd say one thing, and if that didn't work, then sometimes he'd say the exact opposite thing, like 10 seconds later. And I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You just said this and now you're saying this.

Anne Blythe: What is it? And because I really just wanted the truth and I would just drill down until I got it. But I don't think I ever actually got it. Um, I think I would drill down until it did make sense to me. But it was sort of like, he was kind of like bumbling around trying to find something that wasn't the truth that made sense to me. And at some point something would make sense to me, and I would go with that for a while until everything just completely fell apart for him. And he couldn't hold it all together anymore. And I wanna say, this is where I realized, ah, this is not a good guy who just loses it every once in a while. This is a compulsive liar who is wearing a mask all the time of a good guy. And it gets tiring and then the mask falls off, and when the mask falls off, I see him for what he really is. And that's not him just like losing it. That is, that's the mask falling off. And that shift for me was so drastic into what I was looking at that it really helped reframe what was happening.

Dr. Robin Stern: And when did that happen? Do you remember where you were? Was it like an actual moment or was it like a series of moments?

Anne Blythe: Uh, he, he was actually arrested , um, when my youngest daughter, so I have three children, was 11 months old. And it was after his arrest. I read, um, I was at the domestic violence shelter, uh, getting services. I wasn't staying there, so I wasn't, I was in my home still, but I was just consulting with a victim advocate. And she handed me Lundy Bancroft's book, why does he do that? And I read it and I was like, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check. Like literally every single box. And I thought, how did I go to therapy with a man? Couple therapy, pornography, addiction, recovery therapy, all kinds of therapy for seven years. And not one therapist pointed this out. And, uh, he went to, you know, Steven Stassney Compassion Bootcamp and Brett Lyon's Shame Workshop. And like, all of these really things you've heard about and nobody, you know, kind of pulled me aside and said, Hey, you've got like quite the conman on your hands. But, um, so it was at that point when I realized, holy cow, this is, he just wears this mask and it falls off. And it was also when I was able to get some space because he had been arrested and pulled out of my house. And so I wasn't talking to him. And then like the fog sort of cleared and, um, I could, that,

Dr. Robin Stern: That's so important. Can you say a little bit more about that for people who are listening? Because often it is just that taking a step back that Mm-hmm, in your case happened 'cause he was taken out. But yeah, so much of the time we just have to force ourselves to take a step back. Can you say more about how, what you did in that space?

Anne Blythe: Yeah. Um, so he was given a court ordered protective order and couldn't come within a thousand feet of the house at that time. And I was still thinking for a minute, like, oh man, like he just had a slip up with his addiction or, you know, something, right? He is, oh, I hope he, he will be able to figure it out. He is so good at this. You know, he'll, he'll get, he'll boost step four, five and six over again. And, you know, this is what I'm thinking in my mind. Um, but when I didn't have him to actually talk to about it, 'cause he's not there anymore, then the, all of the things that he would say, or the explanations he would give were not even in the equation. And I could just observe from a safe distance, which is what we talk about at betrayal, trauma recovery all the time.

Anne Blythe: Give yourself enough space to observe at a safe distance and just watch. People were saying to me like, well, how can you work on your marriage if you won't even talk to him? You know, like, well he was, he was getting third party people to say this to me, and I just sat still and watched. And what did he do? He shut down my bank account. He bought a rally car. Like that was super expensive and weird thing to buy once when you're, you know, when you say you really want to get your family back, um, just like his behaviors, I could tell were just, he wasn't going to our son's soccer games. He wasn't, um, even though he could, he would tell people, well, I have a, she has a protective order so I can't go. And that wasn't true. He needed to stay like 50 feet away from me, but he could totally go to the game or 25 feet or whatever the, you know, he, he, so I, I just was like, yeah, now, now that he can't lie to me with his words, he doesn't have anything but his actions. And they're speaking very, very clearly and I could really see what was happening. And, and at betrayal, trauma recovery, I call that coming out into reality where you, the fog can lift and you can see what's going on without their narrative in your head about the reasons why. Um, because the reasons why become almost irrelevant when you can see what the action, the actions. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: You're so right about that. And thank you for, for being so open and vulnerable with, with our listeners and with me. Thank you for trusting me. Um, I have a question. At this point here, you are having space, figuring out what happened. What was the next step that you took to, um, establish yourself as a person who other people could find and tell their story to? How did you start BTR and why?

Anne Blythe: So that is, uh, it just kind of took on a life of its own. Um, actually, so I started casting about my experience in this same room in my basement, and I was crying and I was confused. And at the time I was going to Sexaholics Anonymous, uh, like the support kind of like, um, Al-Anon, like for Friends of Sexaholics. So I was going to that and I was just processing and I put it on the internet and I was doing it as a, with an alias, um, which is my Aunt Blythe alias from Anne of Green Gables. And it just went crazy. There were women from all over the world who started reaching out. And if you listen to the beginning of the podcast now, I started podcasting in 2016. My voice sounds different. Like I, I am, I, I'm, I feel like I'm the same person, but it, like, if I listen to episodes from back then, I'm like, whoa.

Anne Blythe: Like, it just is. I like, I'm crying. I am, I am traumatized. I'm trying to make sense of things. Um, and now I, I feel like I see it very clearly, but because everyone was coming, you know, they were all commenting, this is happening to me, this is happening to me. And they didn't have anywhere to go, or at least they didn't, they couldn't find anywhere to go. I'm not saying that there wasn't, um, I just started doing a groups for women to just come share. And then, um, we, I made sure that our coaches were trained in abuse and psychological and emotional abuse and sexual coercion so that they could really help these women process it. Most of the women who came my way were women who had done pornography addiction recovery. And so, because I had all the language and I knew like what their therapists were telling them or what was happening that they, they were like, that, that, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense. And so, um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Can you give us started to do an example, like

Anne Blythe: What would the pornography addiction recovery

Dr. Robin Stern: That doesn't make sense. Like what would be something that somebody would be told that you would say, that doesn't make sense and now they would say that doesn't make sense.

Anne Blythe: Right. Um, there's a very popular pornography addiction recovery practice that if you join, they, the, one of the first things they'll do is make you sign a sex contract, for example, that you'll decide how often you're going to have sex and that you will abide by that contract, which is sexual coercion, just flat out like, so if she's like, I feel unsafe, I don't really wanna have sex today. They'll be like, well, look at the contract. You said you were gonna do it on Wednesday, and if you withhold sex, then he can't recover from his pornography addiction because it's a need that he has. Like, it is crazy. There's crazy stuff like that. Um, though some of the pornography addiction people will say, okay, if you start with us, then you have to not get divorced for a year.

Anne Blythe: So they're telling victims of abuse. You need to stay in proximity to an emotional and psychological abuser who's sexually coercing you for a year to figure it out. I'm like, it, why isn't safety on the table here? It was crazy. There's, um, what, what else is there? The don't get divorced for a year, the polygraphs. So a lot of pornography, addiction recovery therapists will do a therapeutic disclosure. It takes like a year to like write down all of the sexual misdeeds that he has done apparently. And at some point the therapist is like, okay, this is all of it. And he's like, yes, this is all of it. I I don't ever believe that it really is all of it, but that, that's what they decide. And then to prove it, they have him take a polygraph and generally speaking, he passes because the idea is to pass. And a lot of women have been told, well, you have the polygraph now, you know, he's telling the truth. So why don't you trust him now?

Anne Blythe: And you're like, well, because he lied to me for 20 years. He hasn't built back his trust, his trust for me. Why is that polygraph gonna do that? Like, it's like institutional gaslighting. It is cray cray town. I'm not saying every pornography addiction recovery person does that, but in my experience, that was it. And so many women have been through it that they came and they were like, what do I do? How do I get out of this? And no one had put the abuse label on these same behaviors before, at least not that we had known of. I'm not saying that someone hadn't, but because they were hearing this pornography and the, these type of behaviors as abuse when the therapist had been going to for years, never had, it was like a light for them. And BTR grew very quickly into the awesome powerhouse it is today for women to come to when their, you know, when their husband had an affair or when they were lied to and they can't quite figure out what to do. And most of the couple therapy doesn't really account for the man being a compulsive liar. They'll just take both, both parts of the coupleship and say, okay, what's your problem? What's her problem? Okay, let's see if we can work this out. Not realizing that there's no way to do that when abuse is in the mix and they're not accounting for the abuse.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for that. Be for your work. I mean for, thank you for, um, creating a space and a place for women to, to learn that they are not the perpetrators. That they are not the crazy ones. That they are not the reluctant, um, uh, partners. That they are in fact being abused by the process that they're putting themselves in in order to get out of being abused by their husband.

Anne Blythe: Yeah. Yeah. I I can't tell you how many women who once they knew it was abuse 'cause they were going for help. It's not like they didn't wanna get help. Of course, of course. They, they were like, oh. And started making really healthy choices, which was awesome. And then I get blamed all the time for, um, being a man hater or for,

Dr. Robin Stern: For breaking up up marriages, right?

Anne Blythe: Yeah. And I'm like, uh, you know what? Ruins marriages is abuse. Mm-Hmm . So I, I don't think it's abuse education that's hurting families. It's the abuse that's hurting families.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. Yes. And so what do you recommend when somebody finds themselves in that kind of a situation? How, what's the next step for them to go get healthy help?

Anne Blythe: Right. Well, there's all the help not to get right. So don't go to couple therapy with a gas lighter or an emotional abuser. Um, don't try and figure out what the problem is. We've already covered that.

Anne Blythe: Get educated about abuse would be the first thing. We have a list of books on our website, and your book is on our website. It's a curated list of safe books, and that's at btr.org/books, Lundy bancroft's book. Um, why does he do that? Which I consider like the abuse Bible is on there. I want everyone to read that. So get educated about abuse. Find a safe person to share with who's not going to blame you or ask you what your part of the problem was. It's really good to have self-reflection, right? To think, am I doing something to cause this? But usually when women get to the point where it's really bad, they've already thought that for 10 years and they've already done all of the things, and they get to this point where they realize that all the loving and serving and forgiving and, you know, classic marriage advice is not, is not working.

Anne Blythe: And so rather than that type of advice or, or that rabbit hole to go down to say, okay, let's just not worry about what you are doing right now. Let's worry about your safety. Do you feel safe emotionally? So many women don't even know what emotional safety is. If you ask them, do you feel safe? They ask things like, well, he is, they'll say things like, well, he is not punching me in the face, right? So getting educated about abuse, getting educated about emotional safety, not going to couple therapy, not going to try and figure out what's going on for him, I think would, would be the, the first steps. So listening to a podcast like yours, listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. We also have a daily group that runs multiple sessions a day so women can come to share their thoughts.

Dr. Robin Stern: How are you tr how do you train your people who are running those groups?

Anne Blythe: Yes. So they are trained, they're, they're trained life coaches. First of all, they go to a life coaching school, then their additional training is with specific divorce coaching or abuse coaching situations. So for example, Tina Swen, who is an expert on how to deal with narcissists in legal situations at one mom's battle, she has a high conflict divorce coaching certification. Many of my coaches have taken that. Um, they have like prem mediation coaching, financial abuse coaching, um, all types of specific coaching to that. There is, unfortunately not right now, a national, um, a national training for abuse, right? There's no like national, this is the training that everybody gets to be certified. The other problem with the abuse, um, certifications is they're usually local to people's domestic violence shelter, like locale. So I have my domestic violence certification here in the state of Utah, and many of my coaches have their domestic violence specific certification, but there is no like centralized place to get it.

Anne Blythe: So we also do coaching just in general where I, or sorry, training in general for my coaches, which would be, I have a list of curated books they need to read, um, response-based coaching so that they know like, resistance to abuse looks like this. So we, we just kind of cobbled together the best trainings that we could find to make our coaches the best ones. But I think the best thing that, I think the thing that makes them the best at coaching is that they've been through it. All of our coaches have been through it, and they don't do anything therapeutic. They're not trying to work on women's, um, childhood issues or anything related to anything that they might need to work on in therapy, but more the skills to get to safety. What does that look like? And that is a real skill-based approach to it, rather than a, um, let's solve your own problems inside yourself. And then somehow, naturally, and maybe this works for some people, somehow naturally you'll get yourself out of the abuse once you've dealt with your own issues, is not what we do at BTR. We're more like, let's, you can deal with your own issues whenever you want. That's cool. Our job is to help give you the skills to get you to safety now, and then you can figure out all that other stuff later.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I would, I really applaud that you're doing that and that you're framing it in this way because I can tell you as a psychodynamic psychoanalyst in, uh, by training, um, inside is wonderful, but without skills, you're really in trouble. You're especially in abusive relationships because when, if I think that, um, you are nasty to me, why do I wanna spend the time then going back and exploring my, um, preference for choosing people who are nasty to me before I get myself to safety? Right? Maybe it's really important that I can work on that, right? But, and, and a worthy effort. But, um, it's so important to have the agency, also personal agency, which is so lost when people are in abusive relationships to take step one, take step two and reclaim your reality. Mm-Hmm,

Anne Blythe: . Yeah. I just barely did an episode on the five stages of deliverance in looking at like, stage one, things get so bad that you find yourself daydreaming about him not being around. Right? Like, oh, he moved to Texas. Awesome. Right? Like, what would your life be like if he weren't around? Or if he goes on a business trip, you're finding yourself thinking things are so much better when he is not here. Right? Like, is there any way he could just stay there and not come back? And then the other stages of what that looks like, and they're very specific and they're very actionable, and women will recognize themselves in them and be like, oh yeah, I've been in that stage before. I know where that is. Um, it's different than like when I was doing anon and working on my own weaknesses, and they're telling me I need to stay on the, my own side of the street while I'm still on the street.

Anne Blythe: You know, like, it's like people saying, I know you're in a burning building, but just meditate and focus on yourself and everything will be okay. Instead of being like, just get out of the burning building. You know, like it was, it was such a, um, a weird situation. I also think that so much of the abuse has led women to think that something is wrong with them, that they might need therapy for that once they're out of the burning building. Once they're not being abused anymore, they're like, wait a minute. The the fact that I don't wanna cook is not something I need to go to therapy for. Right? Like, I, it's okay. I don't, I don't need a diagnosis of what I dislike cooking. Like that's fine. It's just one of my preferences. So that's another reason to get out of the fog before going to therapy, or, or you could go at the same time, but is to say like, oh, this isn't actually a problem. He just wanted me to think that it was Of course. And there's a difference

Dr. Robin Stern: Between

Anne Blythe: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: And another way to deflect whatever happened might have been going on in the moment for you as a couple at that time.

Anne Blythe: Right.

Dr. Robin Stern: I have a question. Um, with all the help that you've given for other people, and I, I'm absolutely sure it was healing for you as well. How are you now in your life?

Anne Blythe: I'm so good. I'm

Dr. Robin Stern: So good. I'm so, and I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. Tell us more. What makes you, gives you joy? What makes you smile every

Anne Blythe: Day? So helping other women is the thing that gives me the most joy, if you can't tell. But the good news is now I'm focusing, um, on trying to like, it, it's hard. This is my full-time job, right? Helping women. And I love talking about abuse. I'm sure you do too. It's something that I'm so interested in. And, um, I, it's hard for me now to actually go back to that place where I was so broken and sad. And so I have women on my podcast all the time who are in that place, and they're sharing their story. And because I'm not there anymore, sometimes I have to like take a breath and remember, because on a day-to-Day basis, I don't feel any of that pain. I don't feel any of that, um, charge. And now I can just like do my job and then go to my kids' concerts and help 'em out.

Anne Blythe: It was really, really hard, um, after divorce for a long time because I was still being abused post-divorce, which is why I started studying deliverance. And, um, for eight years I would get at least so many emails about our kids undermining things. I mean, it was very, very bad. Um, and I had to figure out how to be delivered from the abuse from my children as well. Now, my, me and my kids are completely delivered from his abuse, which has been, uh, amazing. It's been a few years. And I actually made a workshop using those strategies. We did an out of court and, um, a lot of women have taken, it's the workshop's called the Living Free Workshop. And then I have a message workshop giving women those skills to know how, how do you write back? Like what in the world? Like if this is going on, how do I do this?

Anne Blythe: Because they're set, they set boundaries. A lot of 'em are divorced. They've done everything somebody told them to do. They've done everything right, and yet they still have to write 'em a message about a doctor appointment or something, right? So, so how do they get out of that? So that's the Living Free and the Message workshops at BTR Women have seen a lot of success and, and we did all that out of court because court is like their favorite place. They love going to court and proving how awesome they are. So, um, since my children were delivered, things have also been very, very good. It has been weird though, I have to admit. If you got like a, let's just call it a nemesis , that is like trying to harm you and your kids for 14 years, 20 years, 30, you know, however long, and suddenly you're completely free of them.

Anne Blythe: By the way, the, with the Living Free and Message Workshop strategies that I used, he still lives in the same city. Like, he didn't go anywhere. So that was, it was pretty cool. But, um, and now he's, he's like, it, I don't know, it's awesome. These strategies are really awesome. But it is a little weird to be like, oh, like, I'm not looking over my shoulder. I'm not worried about an email coming in. My phone doesn't, um, trigger me anymore. Um, and so that has been, that's been about two years now, and it feels really good. And I've had to be, um, it's been a little weird. The other thing that I did, which I would not recommend for anybody else, so I'm like, do not do this, was that, um, before I wrote the Living Free and Message workshops, I wanted to see if it was just a fluke.

Anne Blythe: Like, was it just me that use these strategies and like, nobody else can do it or can I duplicate it? And so I immediately went to help other women duplicate this. And then I was in the same situation, but just with somebody else's abuser, helping her write her messages and getting messages every day and being triggered. So that was, um, like, like I, I had to do that to duplicate it, to make sure that the strategies worked. 'cause I wasn't gonna just be like, Hey everybody, I did this. You can do this too. That seems like a really bad idea. And I'm kind of scientific in my thought process. And so, because I helped prob uh, about 10 victims through these strategies for a few years before I wrote the workshops to make sure they worked, and they, and they have worked awesome. Um, I'm like, what is wrong with me? Why would I finally get completely free and not have to live with these crazy messages on a daily basis? And then suddenly I'm dealing with 10 people's crazy messages on a daily basis. So that shows you how much I enjoy, um, delivering women from abuse. Like, I'd say it's my favorite thing.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's your calling. It's your calling. Yeah. So I can't thank you enough for coming and spending this time with me and for all of your wisdom and vulnerability. And please tell people briefly about your book and where they can find you. And, um, thank you.

Anne Blythe: Thank you. Thanks for letting me just talk so much. It's, it's, I appreciate it. Um, my book is Trauma Mama has been drama. It's available on Amazon. It's actually a picture book. I wanted to put all the information in a way that was visual. So people unlike Lundy Bancroft's book, that's a Big Fat, you know, and your book, which is amazing, and I love it. It has a lot of words too. Thank you. A picture book just captured it so quickly that and, and gave some visuals to it. So that's called Trauma Mama has Been Drama. And then the Living Free and Message workshops are available@btr.org. And then my podcast is available on Apple podcasts or most podcasting apps, and you can find it at the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. And my website is btr.org.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you again. And what would you say, just in, in closing, uh, that people can take away from listening to, to us this today?

Anne Blythe: Learning to trust yourself is a process. And the, the thing that helped me the most, I think is just in really small things. So if there's just what you want to eat, you know, or what shoes you wanna wear, or just, if, if you relate to any of this, taking tiny, tiny things and thinking, oh, you know what? I don't like baseball. He watches baseball every night. And I, I don't, I actually don't like it. I'm, I'm not gonna watch it with him. Just start thinking small and maybe taking little steps. It's a maybe a little less overwhelming than thinking divorce right away. And the good news is, as you start listening to yourself and taking those tiny, tiny steps, it will lead you where you need to go and you'll find your way. And I love helping women find their way, because there's, I don't wanna gaslight them into thinking I know what's right for them, right? They all ev every woman has the ability to know what's right for her inside herself. And I'm so passionate about helping her connect with herself and with the truth so that she can live the life that will bring her the most peace.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you. Those beautiful words. And I would recommend that everyone take the small step, which will be a big step of listening to Anne in other places like her podcast and reading the book and any materials that you have to offer. Thank you so much. I look forward to being on this landscape with you and, um, and I appreciate you and of gratitude for your work in the world. Thank you, Anne. Thank you.

Anne Blythe: Thank you, Dr. String. Robin. Thank you, Robin .

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you everyone for listening. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Chang, Coco, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez and Imaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.