Podcast Player Episode 044

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. Thrilled to have with me today, Sarah McCammon, journalist and author, wife and mother who wrote the book, the Ex Evangelicals. Sarah, please tell us about it.

Sarah McCammon: Well, this book, um, it's a product of, uh, sort of the intersection of my personal background, my childhood, and my professional work as a journalist. Um, two things that I, you know, for a long time had tried to keep separate. Um, my backstory is that I grew up in Kansas City, uh, in a very evangelical family. I was born, um, right at the beginning of the Reagan administration. And so, um, I was growing up at a time when evangelicals, particularly white evangelicals, were a growing and increasingly influential group. Um, there were, there was of course the the white Evangelical political project that we think so much about. That's such a big part of the Republican Party today. But there was also a really robust, um, sort of infrastructure of evangelical media, uh, Christian schools, Christian colleges, books, magazines, movies, TV shows, all kinds of things for kids like me, um, that were designed to reinforce, uh, what we called a Christian worldview.

Dr. Robin Stern: When you said kids like you, did you mean kids who were growing up in a traditional evangelical home? Yes,

Sarah McCammon: Yes. Kids growing up, being raised in, in evangelical homes, evangelical churches. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and, you know, as I got older and kind of emerged from that world, I realized that I had really grown up in a very distinct subculture. You know, we didn't talk about it that way, but there were, um, you know, there was just kind of a whole world, a whole bubble, as one of my friends called it, that we were raised inside of. And I think, you know, anybody who grows up in kind of a high control religion, um, could probably understand that process of having to sort of figure out what you believe, make sense of it, figure out who you wanna be in the world. Um, so I had had some distance from the evangelical world for a bunch of reasons. It, it didn't feel like the place for me as I got older.

Sarah McCammon: Um, I'd had some distance from it for many years when I was assigned to cover the 2016 campaign. And, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't left my faith behind entirely, but I had just sort of evolved and how I thought about a lot of things, including the role of women, gay rights, things like that. And, um, suddenly I find myself covering, you know, the Republican primary. I was assigned to that, uh, as a correspondent for NPR. And then white Evangelicals who are such an important part of the Republican base, became such a big part of the story. And I found myself writing about and thinking about a lot of the themes and even the same people that had been a big feature of my childhood. So, um, I, I heard the word ex evangelical, which sort of formed the title of the book. In the process of doing some of that reporting, looking at some of the tensions within the evangelical movement, some of the fractures that were emerging and, and being talked about in a new way, I think because of the rise of Donald Trump. Um, it took me a few years to write the book to figure out what, what I wanted to say about all of this. Uh, but it's a product of that, um, that intersection.

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting. And I, I have some questions. Um, I've listened to a number of your interviews, and they've been really super rich with information and history, both about the world, the, that you lived in and your own history. One thing that I, I would love to hear you talk about today, and I think would be very meaningful for our, our listeners, is how did you get into journalism? Covering politics?

Sarah McCammon: Yeah. Well, I, I started my career actually, um, as a, as a newspaper reporter covering the Chicago suburbs and doing things that had very little to do with politics. I was doing stories about, um, the Naperville, Illinois Park District, and local charity fundraisers and things like that in the Chicago area. Um, I became really enthralled with public radio during that time because I was in the car a lot driving around the Chicago suburbs, which is where I'd gone to college, and then continued working after college. Um, and, you know, I was spending a lot of time in traffic and just started listening to the public radio station in Chicago and became really kind of, uh, obsessed with public radio. I just loved the, the medium, you know, the hearing people's voices, hearing the way they, they expressed things, hearing the sounds of places.

Sarah McCammon: I thought, um, wow, I wish I'd done this kind of journalism. And so, uh, when my then husband and I moved to Nebraska for his graduate program, I started trying to get a job in public radio. And I was fortunate enough to, to do that, um, to be hired as a one of just a couple of reporters at this small, small public radio station in Lincoln. And, you know, there I was covering everything we had. We were a small staff, so sometimes I would cover politics, you know, the legislature, we were all kind of all hands on deck, but most of what I covered had nothing to do with politics. It was, um, a lot of science, health, agriculture and environment reporting because, you know, Nebraska's such an agricultural state. Um, but that was kind of what they had a need for. So that's what they did.

Sarah McCammon: But my next job was in Iowa, uh, as a, as a host at Iowa Public Radio. And of course, Iowa is a hugely important state in the political process, holding the first in the nation caucuses. And, um, along with everyone else, I, I began doing a lot of stories around the 2012 caucus cycle, and I always enjoyed politics. You know, I grew up, um, hearing a lot about politics. It was something that my family was very focused on, so I was, I was fascinated by it. Um, I think I knew pretty quickly that I didn't about, by the time I kind of was about halfway through college, or certainly toward the end of college, I knew I didn't wanna be in advocacy. I felt really uncomfortable with that, actually. Um, it seemed like, it seemed like everybody around me was really confident of what they thought about everything, and I wasn't that confident. And I felt like I had a lot of things to figure out. And, um, you know, I, I couldn't have described it to you this way at the time, but in retrospect, I think I was trying to get away from away from activism and, and, and ideological advocacy and toward a space of more openness and asking questions. And so that was what got me into journalism in particular, I think.

Dr. Robin Stern: Was it the certainty of the different positions that was maybe in part akin to the way you grew up, but also something that you didn't really, like as you began to develop professionally and, and just grow up, was it hard to navigate that coming from your background, navigate politics, even as a journalist, um, hearing people say, well, this is the truth, or this is no, this is the truth. And, and I'm asking you that because of course, we're on the Gaslight Effect podcast, and so gaslighting is about one person having a lot of certainty and then foisting that certainty onto someone else, and the, um, in, in a way that destabilizes that target in a way that undermines the reality or the inner knowing of the gas it Mm-Hmm, . So, or I would think, and I'd love for you to talk a bit about how you navigated that. So here you are, this, um, young woman who is aspiring to bring public voices out and doing journalism and, uh, coming from a very bubble world Mm-Hmm. , and then, um, walking into maybe another bubble world or a couple of different bubble worlds and having to shuttle back and forth to report on journalism, I would think. But tell me, what was it like? Well,

Sarah McCammon: Journalism is, is a place that's really by design. And, you know, we can debate all day how well journalists do that, do this, and how, how well various media organizations fit into this, uh, category of what I'm about to describe. But, but by design in its purest form, journalism is a place where you try to get outside of your bubble. And it, you know, I mean, I was taught, and I, and I have to give credit to my, even my teachers in, in Christian college, um, who I think at least bought into the basic principles of journalism. I was taught about, you know, considering you, you have to consider multiple perspectives. You have to ask people, um, you have to try to understand the best arguments for each point of view. And you have to underst, you know, talk to both sides and understand that it's not always both sides.

Sarah McCammon: It can be multiple sides and a spectrum of perspectives to really understand, you know, issues of public concern. And so for me, I think journalism was a really exciting place to be it, because yes, I was interacting with all sorts of people, with many of whom had very strong points of view. But I was, my role was to stand outside of that. And apart from that, and to not be promoting an i, you know, an agenda, but to try to understand the perspectives that were driving the, the debate, whether it was over, you know, water regulation or abortion Mm-Hmm,

Dr. Robin Stern: . And did you feel like you had to enter those bubbles in order to do that? The bubbles of certainty, the alternate facts?

Sarah McCammon: I felt like it was my job to try to understand the perspectives that were in the room. You know, I mean, I think you're, I'm thinking back to sitting in literally meetings about something as maybe inane, but actually quite important as, as water regulation, which was one of the issues I covered really early in my career in Nebraska, you know, about two thirds of that state is very dry, and agriculture is the heart of its economy. And so water was an incredibly prized commodity that was carefully regulated and often litigated over. And so, you know, you would hear people sort of debating how to interpret the law and how, what to prioritize prior, what, how much to prioritize, you know, recreation and environment over versus business concerns and, and agriculture. Very different from the kind of debates I grew up around. But I found it fascinating.

Sarah McCammon: You know, I found it fascinating. And then I'd go to, um, sometimes I'd cover legislative hearings and I'd hear people debate educational policy or, you know, whatever the issue of the day was. And to me, it was just, it was fascinating to be in a place where you'd hear all sorts of points of view aired often with, with evidence and data, you know, people making presentations to try to back up their points. Um, you know, so much of the, so much of what, I mean, I was surrounded by ideas growing up, and I'm grateful for that. But I was surrounded by really one perspective. And the, you know, the books and magazines and things that I described were mostly devoted to reinforcing and, um, promoting that perspective. You know, so I talk in, in my book about, um, what I was taught about, about science, right? About being taught about, uh, creation c creationism, and really taught to dismiss, you know, scientific consensus. So to be in a space where I could not just listen to, but embrace science and ask questions about it, was, was just exhilarating for me. It felt like getting out of a cage in a way.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I, I think that that's what I was, um, really interested in knowing what was like that, what was that like in your mind that to, um, to have come from such certainty where there's a right way to going into, say, covering politics where, or even I guess, any of the issues and have multiple right ways presented to you, where you got to be standing on the outside of that and saying what you thought about that and reporting on all of that.

Sarah McCammon: And, and not saying what I thought, I'm, I mean, that that's actually what I really liked about it is I wasn't being pushed to have a, an opinion or a position, in fact. Mm-Hmm. , you know, the thing that makes me the happiest is when people tell me, I listen to your report. I mean, I have good friends tell me who, who kind of know what I think about things. Like, I listen to your reporting sometimes, and it's like, I don't even know what you think. Or I'm, I feel frustrated 'cause I'm, 'cause like, you know, friends who are very opinionated needed about something that's like, I, I wanna hear you say my point of view, but then they're like, you know, but that you're a reporter. That's what you do. And I, for me, I, I have a certain amount of, I'm very, I feel like I'm very skeptical of and very sensitive to group think.

Sarah McCammon: I'm very sensitive to feeling like I'm in a room where I'm being pressured to think something or feel something. Um, and I don't care who, who it's coming from, even if it's somebody that I agree with, if I get a vibe that like, um, you know, we're supposed to be sort of, you know, overly celebratory of a certain point of view, I just get uneasy because I was in those rooms so much growing up, and I just, I desperately, I mean, for me, it's almost like, um, it just feels like a violation in a way to be told how to think.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. When did you realize that that violation felt like not okay for you or what you're describing now as a violation? How old were you? Where were you?

Sarah McCammon: Um, I think it was pretty early on in retrospect. Um, I mean, I, like most kids, you know, I absorbed what I was told, and I wanted to please my parents. I, I loved my parents. I still do. Um, I wanted to, I I, I was afraid of, you know, I was afraid of going to hell for sure. , I was told that that was a, something you had to, you know, make sure you avoided. Um, so it was a combination of fear and love and wanting to conform. Um, and I, I think, you know, if you'd asked me what I believed when I was five or 10 years old, it would've been what my parents believed about most things. But I remember I have so, such clear memories of, of struggling with these things from a pretty early age, you know, um, I, I think the first thing I struggled with was the idea that everyone who didn't believe what we believed was, was going to hell, was gonna literally burn forever.

Sarah McCammon: Um, my, you know, my grandpa's a big character in my book. Um, and my grandfather was, uh, one of the very few people that I knew well, who, and, and not that well as I got into, but, but you know, a person close to me who wasn't a Christian. And, uh, as I also described, he, he had come out as gay pretty early in my life because my grandmother passed away. And, you know, he'd been born in the 1920s and had, and had been in the closet like so many people of that generation. So when my grandmother passed away, he, he was able to come out. Um, I mean, he loved my grandmother. I know they cared for each other, and it was very hard for him. But after, after she was gone, after he supported her through her pretty long battle with cancer, he, he began dating men.

Sarah McCammon: And that was really, really difficult for my, for my parents who were, you know, conservative evangelical Christians, and believe that was a sin. But I loved my grandfather. I cared about him. I was proud of him. Uh, he was really a wonderful person. And I struggled with the idea that he was so, so bad and so wrong that, you know, God was going to condemn him if he didn't, if he didn't pray this prayer like we were trying to get him to do . Um, but there were lots of things along the way, you know, um, I remember, I, I always struggled with this idea of exclusivity, that, that, you know, eternal life was only for people who had all the right theology, believed all the quote unquote right. Things didn't ever sit well with me. And so, um, and I think it mostly didn't sit well with me because again, I had people in my life that I cared about that didn't fit into that, into that framework very well.

Dr. Robin Stern: And did you have people at that time in your life, like your grandfather who you talked to about that kind of discomfort with your, with the religion?

Sarah McCammon: Not many. I mean, certainly no one outside the evangelical bubble, but I did have, um, I did have a teacher in high school who was very, a very devout woman. Um, you know, very conservative Christian, but also a very, I shouldn't say, but also, and also a very kind and thoughtful person, and someone who, you know, I think at her core, loved to learn, you know, she Mm-Hmm. She came from, she came from the evangelical, really fundamentalist culture. How was, how she had been raised as I understand it. But she was my English teacher, and she, um, you know, she introduced us to literature and poetry and, you know, she was also the drama teacher, and she was also the Spanish teacher. She spoke fluent Spanish. She was just, she was a single woman who had never married and had really just devoted her life to learning and to, to education. And she was somebody that, you know, when I was wrestling with doubts about all of this, I did feel that I could talk to, you know, and she, um, you know, she wanted me, she obviously wanted me to believe what she believed, but she was kind and accepting. Um, and, and she never, she never seemed panicked by my questions, which I think was really helpful at that time. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so processing that, what was the next step for you in, um, in walking away or in, uh, walking away from the bubble?

Sarah McCammon: Mm-Hmm. . So I went to an evangelical college. Um, I wrestled with that a little bit. I wanted to look elsewhere, um, not necessarily go somewhere else, but I wanted to look elsewhere. I wanted to, I was pretty sure I wanted to do journalism. And, um, you know, university of Missouri is an excellent journalism school. So, uh, I thought about applying there, but, uh, my parents really were insistent that I go to a Christian college. Um, they didn't, they let up on that with my younger siblings, but I was the oldest, and so is so often the case with parents. Yes. I think they were more protective of me, and they felt that that was what I needed, you know, to sort of be safe. And, um, you know, my mom would talk about the importance of going somewhere with a Christian worldview. I think there was a real fear that if I went to a secular college, a secular institution, I would, I would be exposed to things that would, um, the way they would've put it was, you know, pull me away from my faith.

Sarah McCammon: Mm-Hmm. . And so I did go to, um, an evangelical college outside Chicago. And there I also had some professors who I was able to talk to about, um, some of the things I was struggling with. I, I have, in fact, a couple of my former professors came to one of my book launch events, . I went to Chicago the first week, the book came out, and a couple of them were there and said they were very proud of me. And it meant a lot, um, to have, you know, people in my life from that part of my life who, who appreciate, you know, what I'm doing. But, um, you know, I had, I had a couple professors that I could talk to about, about evolution. I was really, it was becoming more and more clear to me the more I studied that there was really no, you know, reasonable evidence for young Earth creationism.

Sarah McCammon: And, and it, and it bothered me that I was being asked to accept something that, you know, the vast majority of people with education and training in this area didn't accept, including a lot of people who were religious people. You know, I came to to find that out too. And so it felt like I was, I kind of felt like I was being asked to be dishonest to, to as sent to something that didn't seem to be true. And that really was ironically at odds with what I was taught. You know, I was, there was such an emphasis on truth telling and honesty, um, to the 10 Commandments for goodness sake, . So, uh, I had people there that I could talk to. And I think, you know, after that, it was just a slow, gradual process. It was the coming together of a lot of different experiences, ideas, instincts, and yes, feelings.

Sarah McCammon: Um, you know, I, I, I think sometimes critics of, of what comes, what's been called deconstruction, or I like to sort of emphasize the feeling and the emotion part. But, um, I, one, I think it's okay to listen to our emotions. I think they tell us things sometimes. And two, I I, I did a whole lot of thinking too. Um, and ultimately, you know, for, for most of my adult life, I've spent, I've spent time in, um, mostly mainline Protestant spaces. Um, when I, you know, when I go to church, that's, I'm sort of fast forwarding here, but I, within a couple years after college, I was mostly attending, uh, Episcopal churches. Um, and that's where I had my children baptized. And actually, my, my first husband and I got married in an Episcopal church, um, in for a bunch of reasons. But, but one of them was, I think, some discomfort with, with evangelical churches that we were starting to have.

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting. I mean, you, you are definitely a learner and, um, it, uh, the knowledge seeker. And I'm wondering, um, in your describing your own process, were you also seeking out those opportunities for reflection and opportunities to like pause and like step back and say, well, what do I think about that? Or did that come with the territory of just moving through the spaces?

Sarah McCammon: Um, yes. I, I, I think for, to a degree I am. I think one of the steps for me in college was I started learning, studying more about church history. I, I felt a need to understand, like in evangelicalism, you know, you're, you're told, um, the real emphasis is on having this conversion experience where you give your life to Jesus, and you accept Jesus, and you have a, you know, the, the, the language is a personal relationship with Jesus, which, um, you know, sometimes I would feel something when I'd go to church and I would really try to, and sometimes I would feel like a peacefulness when I would pray, but I didn't, I wasn't sure what people meant when they said they had a relationship with Jesus. It wasn't for a lack of trying. It just, you know, uh, that language didn't always resonate with me.

Sarah McCammon: And I sometimes felt like there was something wrong with me because it didn't. Um, and so, and the other thing about evangelicalism is it's, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of like you, God and the Bible, like the Bible is, is seen as without error. Literally true, directly inspired by God. And the idea is that you can open up the Bible, read it, and, and God will speak through it and speak to you. Um, and so, you know, I tried to do that. I tried to spend time having what we call devotions, . Um, but I, as I got a little older, I, I realized that, you know, like unlike other traditions like, um, Catholicism even, and mainline Protestantism have a lot of things, um, you know, sacraments and liturgy and things that are a way of sort of showing that you are part of the faith and, and also a way of initiating people into the faith.

Sarah McCammon: I mean, and, and Judaism does this too, and I think other traditions do in various ways, but obviously, but I'm more most familiar with Christianity. And so, you know, for, for a Catholic or an Episcopalian, you, you have a baby baptized, and that's a way of initiating them into the church community. The theology about it varies, but the, ultimately, it's sort of bringing the, the child into the church. Uh, and then as you get older there, you know, there are things like confirmation or, um, and then communion is a way of, of participating as well. And, and for Catholics, for example, that has a whole lot of meaning. Uh, evangelicals don't have most of that. I mean, they have some ceremonies, like there's a dedication ceremony for a baby. There is communion, but it's seen as totally symbolic confirmation isn't really a thing. You know, in some, in some like conservative Lutheran churches that are sort of evangelical, you'd have that, but it's, it's much looser and much more sort of, you, God, the Bible, your pastor, not sacramental, not liturgical.

Sarah McCammon: And so for me, I, I began to think about really what were, what were the components of this faith? And the Bible was so central that I, I started to feel like I needed to really understand what it was and where it came from, because I was being, everything was pointing back to the Bible. So I said, well, what is the Bible? And, um, you know, as I began to study more about, you know, the early church councils and the first few hundred years of the Christian Church that were actually people, men, you know, debated which books should go in the Bible . And there was, and then when the Protestant Reformation came along, 1500 years later or so, or really 1200 years after that, um, you know, Martin Luther thought that some of the, a couple of books in the New Testament probably shouldn't be there.

Sarah McCammon: So there like, like I, I came to learn how the sausage was made, and to realize that, um, you know, really, there was a lot, there was a lot of more human influence in putting this all together than I had realized. Which isn't to say that that's bad or that makes it wrong, but it is just like another piece of really important context for it was for me in understanding the origins of this construct that I'd been given, kind of presented with wholesale as a, you know, as a, as a, a thing, the word of God. Yeah, the word of God, and, and, and a faith that came directly from it. Um, and so I think, you know, I, as I started to, to study those things, it, it helped me reframe a little bit the way that I looked at, at the whole, my faith, the bible, all of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And what inspired you to tell the world about it? What inspired you to write your book? Love for you to talk a little bit about that.

Sarah McCammon: Well, I had, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, I had, um, had my own very kind of long and mostly quiet process of, of trying to make sense of all of this. When I was much younger, I was doing a story in 2016 about evangelical women who were struggling with Trump and the Access Hollywood video and Trump's comments about women. And, um, one of them described herself as an evangelical. And that word is not a word I'd heard before at that point, but it, it was kind of a new term that had kind of been coined online, uh, by a, a podcaster named Blake Chastain. It was a fundamentally a hashtag. And there, there were a couple Facebook groups and things that were, where people were talking about evangelicalism. And then, um, I started just kind of poking around in some of these online spaces and realizing that people were having really interesting conversations about this experience of like, rethinking, whereas people call it now, deconstructing one's faith, and it looks different for everybody, and it's sort of spawned by different, everyone has different things that spawn by, but, um, the process feels kind of similar.

Sarah McCammon: There's this, there is this process of going, okay, I'm, I'm, I've, I'm stepping outside the bubble. I'm realizing that I've been in a bubble. I'm trying to figure out what's true, what's not, what resonates with me, what doesn't, who I am, who I wanna be. Um, and so it was really kind of exciting to find that there were lots of other people who'd been through what I was, had been through. And, um, I, I, I decided I wanted to, to write about that experience. And I felt like this was an interesting time for it to all be happening. You know, it's not, um, it, certainly, my departure from Evangelicalism had nothing to do with Donald Trump. It happened long before, uh, Trump was on the, the scene in this way. But I, I do think that his, uh, his movement and the alignment of his movement with, with evangelicalism so publicly and so profoundly, I mean, with the, without white evangelicals, he would not have been president with white without white evangelicals.

Sarah McCammon: He would not be the presumptive nominee. Uh, if you just look at the numbers, they're the, the most solid voting block for Donald Trump. And that has, I think, prompted a lot of conversations about what it means to be an evangelical. And, you know, um, as I was seeing those conversations unfold, I resonated with a lot of them because of my own history. And so I wanted to, I wanted to describe that experience, and I also wanted to try to answer, um, a question that I get a lot, which, or a couple of questions. One of which is, why do we evangelical support Trump? And the second is, um, you know, why do evangelicals think the way they do? And what do you, what do you make of that as somebody who came from that world? And so, my book, in order to describe the process of leaving, I describe the world that we came from. And I think those descriptions, uh, really granular, detailed descriptions, I, I think, and I hope that they help paint a picture of the evangelical world and the way that many evangelicals think, which, um, helps to explain some of that.

Dr. Robin Stern: And what in that is the relationship between evangelical teachings and then alternate facts.

Sarah McCammon: Mm-Hmm, , I, I wanna be careful to say that I'm not talking about every evangelical, but I, I, I did, I do talk about my experience, and it's, it's an experience that, that several others that I interviewed had. And it's a topic I see discussed in, in these evangelical spaces, which is, um, sort of the, to use a big philosophy word, the, the, the epistemological approach of many mm-hmm, evangelicals, which is to say, um, there is, in some evangelical circles, and I see this in, um, in, in media and in, uh, sort of the way that ideas can be policed in, in any group, but particularly in a, in a religious group with, with fairly rigid ideas, um, there can be a hostility toward, or a fear of secular knowledge, um, a resistance to ideas that violate the, the narrative and the thinking of the group.

Sarah McCammon: And again, this is not unique to evangelicals, but it's something I observed quite a bit in evangelical spaces. And I think the best example of it is the approach to science. Um, again, not all evangelicals are creationists, but it's a pretty pervasive point of view. It infuses the textbooks that I, and, you know, millions of other evangelical people, young people were, were learning under at Christian schools and, and homeschooling. Um, and it's in, you know, if you look at, if you go to groups like Focus on the Family, they still have creation of some materials on their website, um, which is of course an influential evangelical organization, one of the most influential. Um, you know, and, and I will say today, I, I've looked this up recently, focus on the family's website, acknowledges that there's a range of views on this, but they still link to creationist materials. And, um, so I think that when you adopt a belief system that is resistant to sort of secular institutions, secular knowledge, secular authorities, it creates a, an information bubble, and it creates a space where it's sometimes hard for new ideas to penetrate or corrective ideas to penetrate Mm-Hmm. and, um, or

Dr. Robin Stern: Questions you

Sarah McCammon: Can't, or questions. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, I cited my books some research by scholars like Ruth Bronstein at the University of Connecticut, who's, who's looked at some of the data around, um, overlaying white evangelical beliefs with susceptibility to conspiracy theories like Q Anon or vaccine misinformation. And there, you know, there appears to be a correlation. And I think part of it is just sort of the, again, the approach to epistemology that, that many people have been taught in their churches and schools. And it's a skeptic. It's, it's a, it's, I think, a, a distrust of the secular world, right. A sense that, I mean, this is something I was told, like, the world will, will try to lead you astray. Satan will try to lead you astray. The world will try to pull you away from your faith. And so there's a tendency to trust pastors and, um, evangelical leaders and people aligned with them, and to distrust those on the outside. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm, . So the people on the outside have to be giving you alternate facts or fake news.

Sarah McCammon: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's seen, it, it can be seen, seen as that. Mm-Hmm. , and I have, you know, and I, I not in the book, you know, there have been efforts to correct this, like, um, Franklin Graham, who is, you know, by no stretch of the imagination, a liberal, the son of the late Reverend Billy Graham and a, and a Trump supporter, you know, he, he spoke out during the Covid Pandemic because the, the rate of, um, vaccination among white evangelicals was so low. It was one of the lowest groups for a while there. And, and he's, you know, he spoke out and, and really encouraged evangelicals to get the vaccine. You know, he, he said, it's a way to, I think he said, it's a way to love your neighbor to, to get the vaccine. Um, and so, you know, I have to, I have to note that there have been efforts to counteract some of that. But I think that, again, that suspicion of outside authority is, is very powerful, or can be very powerful.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And is there a solve for that? Or is it something that even needs to be solved?

Sarah McCammon: Well, I think that trusted, trusted voices speaking to it can be very helpful. Um, you know, as we saw, um, if theyre willing to.

Dr. Robin Stern: And what about on the personal level?

Sarah McCammon: On the personal level?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.

Sarah McCammon: You mean when you're talking to somebody that you know who's,

Dr. Robin Stern: Or yourself, like,

Sarah McCammon: Um, well, one of the things that was helpful for me is the idea, and this is something that you, you hear in evangelical circles sometimes, that, um, all truth is God's truth. The idea is that God, if you believe in a creator, I mean, that can mean a lot of different things. But if you fundamentally believe as most evangelicals, as all I think evangelicals do, that God is the maker of the world, that there's nothing you can learn about the world that is gonna be false. I mean, some people can tell you false things. You can, you can misunderstand or misapprehend things, you could be manipulated. But fundamentally, if you're learning something that's true, if you're observing the world as it is, as it exists, um, that's nothing to be afraid of, because the ultimate source of reality is God. And I think I still believe that, um, although I don't believe it in the way that I did back then.

Sarah McCammon: But, um, you know, I'm not an atheist and, uh, I have no problem with people being atheist, but I'm not one, that's not how the world feels to me. And so, um, I I, I've always taken comfort in that idea. You know, I think, and I'm gonna use religious language here for a second, if I may, which not everybody will accept, but as I see it, if God made me and gave me a brain, gave me the ability to reason, gave humans the ability to, to think, you know, in a more complex way than any other animal, you know, through evolution, I believe that, of course. But if that's, if that's ultimately where we've landed and we're a product of, in some way, God's creation or God's idea, , then there's nothing to be afraid of. You know, the world is the way it is.

Sarah McCammon: And I think that there's also a certain amount of intellectual humility involved in, in, in accepting the idea that we don't know everything. You know, I think a lot of fundamentalism and science denial, conspiracy theorist, thinking it come, it could come out of a desire to just make sense of things. You know, like make a cohesive system out of things, explain the unexplainable, explain things that are scary, and that's a really natural, normal human impulse. And there's, you know, nothing, it's nothing to feel ashamed of. I don't think having those, those desires. But I think we also, like, it's also okay to un to just accept that, like, it is a big, complicated, beautiful world, and we're not gonna figure it all out. We don't, I don't think we have to figure it all out. Like it's taken so long for humans to figure out how to, you know, how to do many of the things we do with modern technology. Um, you know, how much more will it take? Is is it difficult to figure out like these big questions like existential questions about the world?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I, well, I think absolutely that there is that tension between the want for certainty and the, the experience of complexity living in the world. Mm-Hmm. and, um, being able to say, yes, um, I believe this, and yes, I'm interested in learning that without being afraid of the that. So it sounds like that is part of the, that has to be part of the journey to not be afraid to go forward and learn, and also, um, just not be afraid to share it with people. I would think. I mean, really wonderful, um, gift that you've given to the world, sharing your story, sharing your perspectives, and, uh, what, what are your thoughts about what's next for you and what are your thoughts about the I may, the upcoming election?

Sarah McCammon: Um, well, I, I, I guess I'll just say, uh, if I, if I can, then, I don't think this directly answers your question, but, but you talked about sharing my perspectives, and one of the things that's been really meaningful is to hear from people who have said that they feel, um, sort of seen and validated by me sharing my story. Because I think there are a lot of, there are a lot of people who've been through something like this. Um, it's a big country. It's a very religious country. And, you know, I think a lot of the people that I talk to and talk about our, um, many of them are honoring that religious, you know, their religious tradition or, or the desire to be spiritual, but also wanting to honor the questions and, uh, yeah, wanting to honor the questions and, and, and validate them and, and, and open their worldview. It, um, what's next for me is definitely covering the election . Um, we're kind of heading into the thick of that. Um, I don't make any predictions about what will happen, but, uh, I will be very, very busy over the next several months as my colleagues will as well.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, for sure about that. And I, I think as I was listening to you thinking about the context that we are on the Gaslight Effect podcast, thinking about people who are, have been in a relationship where they felt like they accommodated the other, whether the other was their family or the other was their partner, to the extent that where they began to fear that they were giving up themselves. And then that process of leaving that gaslighting relationship, um, and discovering that, uh, it was okay to question and there was nothing wrong with them for questioning and, um, regaining trust in self and decision making, and going forward then to the next connection where people then people sometimes struggle with trust again in that way, and yet go forward wanting that connection and wanting all the goodies that come with being in a relationship absent the, the gaslighting and manipulation. So just making those thought connections.

Sarah McCammon: I think leaving a religious community is, or, you know, even just evolving one space can feel a lot like leaving a relationship. I mean, I think, uh, so many of the evangelicals I talk to, you know, really think about it a lot and struggle with it, and struggle with the impact on, on multiple relationships. Um, and the feeling of, uh, I think one of the hardest things is, is when there's a sense from the people, you know, from family members or former church members, that they think that this change is something that, it's not, that it's a product of wanting to sin or wanting to rebel or, um, you know, that it's, that it's something, you know, sort of directed at them when most people I talk to, and certainly my experience was that this was a, it feels very much like a breakup. You know, you're trying so hard to salvage something and, and you, but you can't, you can't ignore, you know, you can't unsee things. And so, um, one thing I hope that maybe my book will help at least some people with, is just understanding that having insight and empathy for what this process is like. And I have heard from a few parents of adult children who've told me, you know, I'm just starting to understand kind of what they went through and the way they were parented in the evangelical church. And I, um, and I'm, and I'm trying to make that sense of it, and, and, and they've said that the book has helped, and that's really meaningful.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm sure the book will be very meaningful as we'll, listening to you on this podcast where so many readers, listeners, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for writing your book. Um, getting out of a relationship where you're in a bubble is really hard. As you say, it requires huge process compassion for yourself, patience and, and compassion for other people around you who may not understand, but who you love anyway. So thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate you. And where can people find you?

Sarah McCammon: Um, I have been pointing people to my substack. I have a substack, uh, that's free to subscribe to, called, um, off the Air, a journalist's After Hours thoughts. And, um, if you just search for my name there, uh, I write about, a little bit about religion, a little bit about politics, sometimes about, um, failed attempts to make kombucha, whatever the case may be, .

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I look forward to seeing your coverage and hearing your coverage of the election. It's definitely upon us, and thank you so much for your deep thinking and, um, courage and for the gift you gave the world.

Sarah McCammon: Well, thank you so much, Robin. Thanks for talking with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you everyone for joining us. Really appreciate you tuning in and, uh, this important episode with Sarah McCammon on the Gaslight Effect Podcast. See you next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Chang, Coco, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez and Imaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.