Podcast Player Episode 043

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really thrilled to have with me today, Sarah and Nippy, and I'm gonna ask you to please tell your story, introduce yourselves, and talk a little bit about why you said yes to being on the Gaslight Effect Podcast.

Sarah and Nippy: So great to be here. Um, did we call you Robin or Dr. Stern? What do you in this context? Okay. Robin

Dr. Robin Stern: . Thank you.

Sarah and Nippy: I'm Sarah, and this is, hi. I am Nippy. Nippy and I are married. We actually met in what we thought was a personal and professional development program in the mid two thousands, and we did that for many years. It was a community of like-minded what we thought were humanitarians, trying to evolve ourselves and, and therefore impact the world in the best possible way through evolving our limiting beliefs. And it was a sort of a therapy based, uh, personal development program community, and it was really wonderful in many ways until it wasn't. And we were there for 12. I mean, this is really the Cliff notes. We, I was there 12 years ni there was 16 years, and there was many, many red flags along the way in gaslighting, which we can get into. But ultimately, I was, I was able to finally see what was going on and wake up, as we say on our podcast, um, to see what was actually going on, which was, um, sex trafficking and, um, uh, course of control and a number of illegal activities. Nippy and I, with a group of others, went to the authorities. There was, uh, an investigation and a trial, and ultimately the leader, Keith Ranier, is behind bars for 120 years. Um, that was all documented in a docuseries called The Vow, which later led to us doing a podcast during covid. And now we are advocates for people, um, getting out of cults, healing from cults, and hopefully trying to educate people to avoid joining in the first place. That's the summary. , did I miss anything?

Speaker 3: No, I think you about covered it. Okay.

Dr. Robin Stern: So listeners, I was on their incredible podcast and, um, and it just felt really important for me that, uh, I invite you to be on my podcast because gaslighting is the gateway to getting into cults. And so I wonder if you could talk a little about that for yourself. How was it the gateway for you? How did gaslighting happen for you, and did you recognize it? And did you think they knew what they were doing? Tell us.

Speaker 3: I'd say to, to add to what you said, gateways kind of the, I mean, gaslighting is a gateway to coercive control, right? Because I, it, in a lot of ways it demands obedience. And, and to answer the original question too, one of the reasons Sarah and I agree to be on is because it goes on a lot and it's going on in a lot of, uh, domains right now, that people need to be armed with knowledge and what it looks like. It sounds like. So, Mm-Hmm, in our case, uh, and I think it was case, it's case by case, I think it's important to understand that how people were gaslit was case by case. Ultimately, you know, in our case, they would elicit your principles and, and then hog tie you to your principles. And whatever you were doing that wasn't obedient to the organization, um, was interpreted as not being obedient to your principles.

Speaker 3: And they would remind you of your principles and anything to, um, to individuate from ESP Niom, whatever was seen as you individuating from your principals that you had committed to. And that was done in a lot of ways, and I can give you an example, um, of how I was gaslit. Uh, they always wanted you to take more trainings, and I was resistant to that, and I wasn't gonna pay more money for 'em. So they did it on exchange where I would help staff or something like that. And there was one, I think their training was like $10,000. And I was just like, I'm not doing it. You know, it was like, you know, and it was called Characterization, and it literally was about character and stuff like that. And then someone comes up to me who's younger than me and really hasn't been out in the world at all and says, if you want to be the leader that you wanna be, you're gonna have to take this.

Speaker 3: Now I know I've led more things than this person, you know, I mean, my resume as I, I played quarterback in college. I was captain of three teams and high. Like, if there's something that I had done before that I could kind of speak to, although it was, you know, before I was, you know, 23 years old, I was 23-year-old when that stuff ended, I still had enough relationship with leadership where I knew that someone in my adult world wasn't gonna be the authority on character and leadership. So when that was said to me, I had an objection, but I also recognized my objection was gonna be met with gaslighting. And I just kind of took it on the chin and was like, I'm not doing the training. So while I was gas lit and knew that there was no real way for me to go contest what they said, because they were the authority in my mind, I still, I disagreed and I went and did what I wanted to do anyway.

Dr. Robin Stern: So you were holding those two things at the same time, the knowledge, the deep knowledge that you knew what you were talking about. Yes. And what was the gaslighting spell that you were under? That they were the authorities? Was that, is that what you

Sarah and Nippy: Well, that was, that was the first commitment, right? From day one. They know more than we do. Right, right. Then that, just to go back to the beginning, I think that's important to acknowledge is that people who really got, uh, brought along in this journey on, in NX VM from the beginning, agreed, I'm gonna take a training, and the people who are a higher rank than us in the Stripe path know more than we do. Therefore, when they say, you're doing X, Y, and Z, even if some voice inside of me is going, no, I'm not, then another voice is going, but they're an orange sash, or they're a green sash is like a martial arts system of, of ranking and authority. So if a green sash is above me is saying, you know, Sarah, you're acting really suffery right now. And I'm like, I don't think I'm being suffery. And also that's confusing because you told me I need to feel more, so now I'm feeling and I'm emoting and I'm, I'm feeling things, and now you're saying I'm being suffery, then I'm then feeling crazy. So there's a number, but when in reflecting on the gasoline that occurred for both of us and in different ways, I'd say in Nexium

Speaker 3: Yeah. That that's the most important thing. Yeah.

Sarah and Nippy: Like it was very different. How it's different. How I was in nippy was,

Speaker 3: And, and, and to, to put it into context, like I had left the organization. So I was involved with like, for like two years as a coach, and then I kind of recognized this organization doesn't necessarily embody what it says it does, but I also understood meaning,

Dr. Robin Stern: Meaning that the leaders weren't,

Speaker 3: Meaning, leaders weren't very competent. They weren't leaders in their own lives. IW they, they didn't seem like they didn't have an earned authority with me as to tell me what I was gonna do with my life because they hadn't demonstrated in their own lives. But I also understood it's a work in progress to be successful. Um, the companies seemed to me be a little bit of a startup at the time. So I recognized that the people that they had positions of authority weren't gonna be perfect, and neither am I and all those things, but I didn't see anyone in the, those were

Sarah and Nippy: The excuses.

Speaker 3: . Yeah. But, but I didn't see anyone in the organization that go, okay, that's what I wanna, that's what I wanna do. Whenever I go into something that I wanna thrive in, I go, okay, that person's an example of who I want to emulate. And, you know, ultimately that's, that's how you learn. So I left the organization was out for about three years, and I got called back for work. So for me, my case is somewhat unique in that,

Dr. Robin Stern: What do you mean call back for work?

Sarah and Nippy: They were doing a film.

Speaker 3: They were doing a film, I was living in LA at the time. Mm-Hmm. . Mark Vicente, uh, who was one of the whistleblowers with us, flew out and said, we have a project for you to come back to and work on. I wasn't gonna say dangle

Sarah and Nippy: To Carrot.

Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna say no to work. And it was a film. And when I got back, the organization had grown immensely. There were more people in it that I respected. There were people in the acting, uh, community director, community. And I even thought that was just a great place to generate work. 'cause we all have this in common. So in a lot of ways, I was kind of eating my words as, you know, the efficiency of the organization. When I came back, I had already had my boundary set with what I liked about the organization and what I did. Right. And I think I've articulated that like there just weren't people and they weren't my people in a lot of ways. Um, and so I agreed with the mission in the organization. I mean, I didn't, I didn't really have any clue that they were never really going to do or attempt to do what they were gonna do, which is like, bring ethics to the world. That was the smokescreen. Um, but that's where they had me. I, I thought, wow, these people are really trying to do this. They're doing it through media. They're doing it through a lot of domains. Projects are actually happening. 'cause one of the reasons I left before, the projects weren't happening. And so I was bought in, in that, in that regard. But I did have my boundaries set.

Dr. Robin Stern: Nippy. Was that the promise? Well, for both of you, was that the promise of, of N VM that you would, um, there'd be a better world and that it would be built on ethics?

Speaker 3: That

Sarah and Nippy: Was, and, and getting to sales pitch to, and getting to world leaders. It wasn't just us working on our goals. It was, um, that we would, and that's why it wasn't like as, as, as like, um, for the masses, like something like Landmark or something. It was, it was more, we were hitting, getting to the right people, heads of state, captains of industry, Dalai Lama, Dalai Lama. And we would find these people and we would help them become more integrated and then bring their leadership up to a level of ethics that would, like, if everyone, we would, we strongly believe that if everybody had this curriculum, we wouldn't bomb each other. We wouldn't wanna hurt each other. We would, we would recognize we're all part of the human team, which is like a great, you knows, it's, you know, but it, I mean, is it possible?

Sarah and Nippy: Maybe, but not, not through Keith's methods, but that drove us. That really drove us. And just to speak to, um, like, just to go back to the beginning, I think it's super important for people to understand that at the very beginning when we started the very first five day training, they would say, you know, in the housekeeping, like, you know, we're gonna have lunch in a couple hours. You're gonna feel uncomfortable. You're gonna feel what we call the urge to bolt. And we just ask you that if you do that, you come and speak to one of the coaches because you paid a lot of money. It's not refundable. And we want you to work through your issues. If we bring up a topic and you can't even sit in a room and talk about it, like, how is that gonna affect you outside in the, in the real world?

Sarah and Nippy: Which is true, like, you know, in therapy if you need to be able to talk through stuff. But what's not true is that when, when, when our gut was saying, something's not right here, we had no exit. If you agreed to the first point, and the first point is, we're agreeing to stay and talk to somebody if we're uncomfortable. And from that point on, start to override that uncomfortable feeling because we are here to work on our issues. In other words, discomfort is a point, is an entry point to an issue to work on, versus discomfort is an internal side signal thing. Get the F out. Yeah. Right. And

Speaker 3: There's thoughts, thoughts, support that. Yeah. What you resist persists. You're doing the issue now, stuff like that.

Dr. Robin Stern: And what's really so important about what you're saying is there, it, it's a continuum because a little bit of discomfort does come along with growth. Yes. As a therapist, I can say people often in sessions are a little bit uncomfortable, but it's different to feel uncomfortable with your own feelings and to feel like there's something wrong with what's going on. And so sometimes perhaps the boundary between those two things is a little bit fuzzy.

Sarah and Nippy: It's, it's still something that I, well, it's still something that I'm trying to figure out when in moments where I'm feeling that discomfort, I'm like, is this an issue? Or is this a boundary? Am I, am I being triggered because of a pa because of, you know, even my past trauma around NX vm? Or is there a boundary being crossed?

Dr. Robin Stern: And so many things about NM were seductive because when you have a group of people who are like you really wanting to change the world, and you're surrounded with those people as well as the people who were not ethical, but pretending to be ethical or gaslighting everyone else, it must have been really confusing and very crazy making. It was,

Sarah and Nippy: It was very confusing. 'cause a lot of the interactions I had, especially in the early days, were really wonderful. And people would help me sit down and evolve, you know, a challenge with, you know, my stepmother at the time who I had a very contentious relationship with and make it better, or my nerves in an acting class and act and auditioning and making that, uh, those go away. So I had a lot of very positive results. And so that when I did get gaslit and somebody did, um, you know, pull out the coercive control over the manipulation strategies, I tended to believe them that there was something wrong with me. And that, as you probably saw in the book, anytime I contested, like, Hey, I think it's time for a promotion. Or even even like raised a request of something that I thought I deserved. I was being entitled or I was being controlling, and there's always something that I was doing wrong. So I kind of learned to, uh, very quickly suppress those things and act a certain way so that I could keep going up the stripe path. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was, uh, from that gaslighting and also gaslighting of myself until I got out.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And the, the stripe path was in and of itself, like a way to gaslight all of you. If you, can you talk about the stripe path, this tripe path? Because I remember in your book you talked about, um, not even liking the white stripe.

Sarah and Nippy: I don't think NiPy, NiPy, I really liked the No, I, we had two,

Speaker 3: Sarah and I had two different relationships with the stripe path. I'll let Sarah tell hers and then I'll tell mine.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah. I mean, the stripe, but in and of itself is supposed to be a martial arts system for growth. So people can measure, you know, I'm gonna do this and then go to the next level from white to orange, Sarah White to, to yellow, to orange to green, to blue to purple. And if it was what it was supposed to be, it could have been great a way to, to measure your growth. Like an introspective science could be measured. How wonderful. Um, and parts of those things can be measured. Like, you know, do you understand a set of curriculum and can you be tested on that curriculum and then reproduce that? Like if you're getting your degree, you have, that's what, that's what examinations are. Like, there's certain things you can examine. Do people understand this? Can they teach it? So that part was true. And then also in regards to building your organization, which was recruitment was, which was another part of the, the stripe path.

Sarah and Nippy: And the third part, which is the most right for gaslighting, is your emotional growth. So if you need to be, um, for example, to become a coach, you can't be antique. You can't be, you know, like as a coach, you can't be making jokes in class or like, um, running out to grab food every two seconds. You need to be able to sit on your impulses. You need to be able to, um, uh, be grounded and, and address the class without being nervous. Like, those are certain things that you needed to be able to measure and, and prove that you could overcome. Which in some ways, you could like rapport where the big group is a, is a measurable skill. But who was, who was an analyzing that? Who was on the outside saying, oh, you're less antique now if someone's doesn't, what is

Dr. Robin Stern: Antique?

Sarah and Nippy: Antique would be somebody who was like doing a bunch of behaviors to like get attention. That's what they call antique. Like impulse control. Yeah. Like telling jokes or, you know, being flirty would be antic or Mm-Hmm. , um, you know, fidgety or like having to take notes all the time, or just like having something that like, almost like a yeah, bad impulse control would be another way of saying it. So you couldn't be a coach and represent executive success programs if you were antique and somebody was evaluating you. And where it got harder is the more you went up the stripe path, you had to be evolving. Like, I had to be evolving my, like me issues like that. I care what people think and I'm an accommodator or that I, I'm controlling the environment to, to meet my needs. Somebody could say, well, you're still being controlling. And I'm like, but I don't think I am anymore. And like, well, we do. So, Mm-Hmm, , you're stuck. So there was a lot of that. Someone, someone

Speaker 3: Arbitrate.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah. It's arbitrary

Dr. Robin Stern: And Right. And that's the gaslighting that they're the people who were defining reality for you.

Sarah and Nippy: Yes.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And to my hindsight assessment of how this works is, um, knowing and understanding what we know about, about Keith Rani at this point is, okay, I need an organization and I need a structure in place that looks like it's building humanity and growing people, but is really facilitating obedience to me and my narrative. Mm-Hmm. . And I'm gonna reward people based on their capacity to be obedient to my narrative, but it's gonna look like they're growing and

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, but, but here's the thing. It actually does promote self-growth at times.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. No, that, that's what makes it tricky, right? Yeah. So this is, this is where I think, and this is actually something Keith said in one of his trainings, the most dangerous kind of lie is the one that has grains of truth in it. Yeah. Right? And so what made this dangerous is there's some truth to it. So it's enough to keep people obedient for, my thing was, is when I was called back and I had certain boundaries set, I recognized I was gonna be in Albany for a little bit. And I recognized going up the stripe path and getting to Proctor was the only way I could earn money within the organization. So apparently the only way to earn money within the organization is you had to read a status of proctor. Mm-Hmm. , once I got to proctor, I gave up. I pretty much abandoned all attempts to get up to Stripe path for, for reasons of, like, I didn't respect a lot of the people up there.

Speaker 3: They were more obedient to Keith. I wasn't, I was more obedient to the mission of the school, right. So there's a lot of things that I saw going on, and I was targeted differently, and I'm just less obedient in general, which we called defiant, which they called me defiant. And I was like, fine. You know, I just did, I, I just did not like, and, and it was demonstrated so many times because I was like, I remember there was a situation in New York City where Sarah Broffman, the, the Seagram Hess, she was the green senior proctor of like the highest rank. And

Dr. Robin Stern: Wow.

Speaker 3: There was three of us who ran the entire thing. So I was getting down there early in the morning and I was, and I was walking home. I would walk about 40 blocks at 10 o'clock at night, three, four times a week. 'cause I was shutting the center down. And there was, and she would show up late to a proctor meeting because she was getting her nails done. Like that happened multiple times. So like, my respect for her and her authority as it pertains to in the organization was pretty much zero. Like, when she said something, I was like, there's no, there's no experience behind your words. You've never done what I've done to run your center. But you couldn't say that. Right? I couldn't say that. Yeah. And I didn't wanna say it, I didn't wanna get into it with her. It was a, it was a pain in the. But she writes a letter to Nancy, um, and about the conditions for me to continue running her center, right. And she, she emailed it to me, and then I, I went, and Nancy is the president of the company, right? If you know the familiar with the vow. She was kind of tell

Dr. Robin Stern: Her audience,

Speaker 3: She's the Ghislaine Maxwell to Keith Rani, if you will, um, and Nancy write it. She's like, well, it seems like Saar just can't control you. And I'm like, yeah, that's not a bad thing. Like, you know, and I could speak freely with Nancy because I was like, I was like, Nancy, this is. Like, you know, I I I, I'm just, I'm not gonna run it. Cut My pay is kind of my attitudes. I wasn't really getting paid. Mm-Hmm. . And so for me it was like they were trying to do all these things to me. And then I think for me, they just kind of were like, let's do a little bit of hands off here. 'cause it was just, it was just so obvious I was doing the grind and she wasn't, and you needed me. So I became a little less harder to control and I wasn't going up the strip path. That doesn't mean I didn't fall for like, the ESP mission in general. It was just different because I was targeted differently and my obedience wasn't necessarily needed as much.

Sarah and Nippy: You see, that makes

Speaker 3: Sense.

Dr. Robin Stern: And was it also that you're not a woman?

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Sarah and Nippy: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I, I mean, honestly, hearing nippy talk about this is bringing back so many memories because I'm the opposite. Like I really was a goody two shoot.

Speaker 3: She was uncomfortable with my

Sarah and Nippy: Defense. I would be like, nippy, like where you, like he, I'd be staying in the front, like taking notes in a forum and he'd be in the back on his phone. I'd be like, nippy, you're gonna get in trouble.

Speaker 3: I don't go to the gym.

Sarah and Nippy: He didn't give a . And they just said, yeah, he's being defiant. It's just nippy. And they did leave the h hands off because he was enrolled enough, he was enrolled enough to show also providing

Speaker 3: Value.

Sarah and Nippy: He was totally providing value. He was the only alpha male that was willing. I don't

Speaker 3: Describe

Sarah and Nippy: Myself that well. I, I mean strong all American football playing, like, whatever you enhance him. I can say this about my husband. You say that. I can say that. Don't say that. I'm not gonna, okay. ,

Speaker 3: That's not gaslighting.

Sarah and Nippy: I know. But my point is, is that like if you're a man and you're in finance in Wall Street or something, and you come to a five day introduction section and you see a bunch of housewives from upstate New York, you're gonna be like, this isn't for me. And then maybe you see nippy and you go, oh, okay, well this, here's a dude. You know? And so he had a value that I think in many ways they were, they laid off him in that way because he was providing enough value. And, and, and a certain degree to me as well, I was in Vancouver running a center and filtering, unbeknownst to me as a pipeline of fresh young women to Albany on a regular basis. So in many ways I wasn't actually majorly like emotionally abused in the same way I saw a lot of other people that moved to Albany.

Sarah and Nippy: I mean, yes, the whole thing was gaslighting. The whole setup was, anytime I'm uncomfortable was abusive, but like, I didn't get, can I swear on this podcast? Uh, sure. Okay. Anything. Okay. . Okay. I didn't get like head in the same way that a lot of the, the women that were like in his inner circle or in his harem or even move to Albany. And I remember, can I tell you the, the moment that I had my first, it was actually I think the, the beginning of the, the end for me. And it was like a year before I left, before the branding and everything. Yes. Um, it was, so at this point, I'm a green, I did go up the stripe path. I became one of the, like the highest ranking. And we, the greens would get together to talk about promotions, who's gonna get promoted, which is the big deal. Like who's going to the next level, right? Just like an MLM Nippy wasn't part of this because as he mentioned, he stayed at Orange and didn't aspire to more, which I always was like, what are you crazy? Like, don't you wanna, and he is like, why would I need, like, you don't get paid more at the next level. So anyway, I'm in the green meeting and we're also,

Speaker 3: I didn't wanna be in any of those meetings. , I, I listened to these meetings. It was two hours torture, nothing getting done. I was like, I can't do it. Total

Sarah and Nippy: Torture. I

Speaker 3: Can't listen to unintelligent people try and problem solve

Sarah and Nippy: so mean. Sorry. So meanwhile, I am at this meeting and we're, we're talking about all the promotions. And you understand that, like I said at the beginning, Stripe path is recruitment your skills and your emotional growth. And there was one person, Nancy Salzmann's, other daughter, you don't hear too much about, um, who was going to be promoted to proctor. Like, as Nippy said, Proctor was orange sash. It was the level that you could get paid. It was a really big deal. She'd been the level just before proctor my entire 12 years that I had been there. So here's somebody who's Nancy's daughter, who I've already passed in the Stripe path. I've, I've, I've already surpassed her. She's totally should be a proctor. The only reason she's not a proctor and she's more skilled than I am, is that she doesn't have enrollment. Enrollment. So enrollment was one of the criteria, right? She had to have brought in one more person. Meanwhile, by this time, I think my organization, all the people I brought in was like almost 2000. My goodness. She needed one person. Okay? She couldn't recruit. She couldn't recruit. Recruitment was is an essential part of the nex Im Stripe path because

Speaker 3: Put an asterisk in the recruitment too. I'm gonna,

Sarah and Nippy: Okay. And also just a sidebar address that, yeah. Recruitment was building humanity. So if you weren't recruiting, you weren't building humanity Weren. Yeah. You weren't total gaslighting, right? So meanwhile, nobody wants Michelle to be promoted to Proctor more than me and all of us. But Lauren, her other, her sister Lauren Salzman says she doesn't have the application yet, but she's got her recruit, she's got her enrollment, and we find out she's gonna get promoted to proctor that night. And you have to understand, I've been in charge of, I was, was called a field trainer. I'm in charge of the applications. I'm in charge of promotions, I'm in charge of every, like, all the, you know, the i's need to be dotted. The t's need to be crossed. One of the things that has to happen to make a enrollment and enrollment is that paperwork has to be processed.

Sarah and Nippy: Like you have to have somebody signing. I'm doing the five day, here's my credit card. And that has to actually go through like the, the deposit has to be taken for it to count. And now I'm hearing she doesn't even have the paperwork and we're gonna promote her to Proctor. And this is the first time that I put my hand up and, and question and go, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. Wait, we're promoting her to Proctor and she's in for her application. Like, that's a joke, right? like, 'cause I'm a, I'm a rule follower, right? And I followed all the rules and here's a rule being broken. And it seems like very clear nepotism because we

Speaker 3: But but also the standard had been enforced on you. Yeah.

Sarah and Nippy: The standard, multiple times the standard has been enforced on me in many ways. It felt unbelievably unfair, but I was willing to, you know, follow the rules. 'cause that's who I am. So anyway, I question it and I just get like, they, I get jumped on from all angles. 'cause even though I'm a green, there's other people that are higher ranked green than me. And I got in so much for this, for questioning. I'm being suppressive. I am questioning Keith, which is anti tribute. It's, it's, um, anti, um, all sorts. I can't even remember all the things. But I would, I had Alex, who is my coach, have to come talk to me later and make sure I understand why I did what was, what, what, why, what I did was bad. And, and I was just like, internally I was enraged and I couldn't express it.

Sarah and Nippy: And I, every time I tried to say what, then I was doing it again. I was being controlling, which had been my issue and is still my issue. I'm a control. It's not issue. I like to control things. I'm a, I make things happen in my life. I'm not a sit sounds like a good thing. I'm not a biased. Yeah. Well thing it is a good thing. And, and it was a good thing for them when I built a center and recruited all these people and made it happen. 'cause I'm a hustler, you know, I do stuff in my life. I don't sit back. And now I'm like, wait a second. And they're saying I'm doing something bad. And that was like, like I'd sat on my hands before in other less important issues. 'cause it was like, okay, like I, I was, I was getting enough of what worked for me in terms of like the center in Vancouver.

Sarah and Nippy: But now it was not only that it, they were promoting somebody in a way that I knew it wouldn't feel good for Michelle if she got promoted without the proper criteria. Like that would be the opposite of everything we've taught, which is that to build self-esteem, people need to earn things. You don't wanna give things to people out of integrity, out not, you know, not in an integrous way. Like this is total nx VM speak. So that just was like such an inconsistency to me. And that was something like that I seen as, you know, as we talk to other people as they get out of different cults is they start to see the inconsistencies, right? It's like in an abusive relationship. Like, okay, suddenly they're a great dad, but they're also an alcoholic and all of a sudden you can't, the cognitive dissonance doesn't work anymore.

Speaker 3: Well also, you, you wanna point out as well that there was a lot of well-trained gaslight in the upper ranks Mm-Hmm. in that thing. And I don't think they knew that they were doing it. And when I look back, you know, even though I was peripheral to that inner circle, when I spoke to other students that were considering leaving, my tactics were gas lighty in a sense. Like, I didn't necessarily, I wasn't cognitively going, I'm gonna try and keep this person obedient, loyal. I'd be like, well, you might, are you gonna work this issue before you leave? Like I was bought in on, hey, you're gonna go out into the world and you're still gonna have this going on. Why don't you let us help us with it? And I believe we're doing that. And in a lot of ways, I think that person may have felt gaslit by me pointing out that, you know, they still had an issue to contend with. So, you know, I wasn't not a susceptible to it. Right.

Dr. Robin Stern: You're bringing up a point that I I'd love us to talk a little bit about. So in the 1944 movie Gaslight where the diabolical husband drives his wife, his adoring wife, crazy, um, through manipulation, through gaslighting, through having power over her and turning her reality, he's very conscious of doing just that. He's very conscious of lying to her. He's very conscious of blaming her. We, the the audience see it as we're watching the movie, but of course she doesn't see it because she is too busy feeling blame, uh, feeling, um, the, like she's the one who's wrong when she's pointing her finger at herself and saying, yes, it, you know, must be me. Um, and I wonder as you're talking, how many people who are doing the training are unconsciously gaslighting until they, until you, like you had that wake up call Yeah. Learning the technique, which is socially learned from conscious gaslight.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like there are certain points where if I said certain things, it would feel mean. That's where I gauged it. And I'd be like, and if you're being mean, I don't think you're helping them. Right? Mm-Hmm. . So I think I was gaslighting people really believing I was helping them. Um, and because you're

Sarah and Nippy: Basically saying you're wrong. Someone's saying something and you're going, well, that's not true. Which also could be true.

Speaker 3: . I'll give an example, and this is one I still think about today. Um, I wish I could go back and unring that bell. Um, there was a situation in our New York City center, um, and we had extremely competent, smart people in our New York City center. Mm-Hmm. . It was, it was really like a good, a good group of people. Um, and I don't know if I should mention the names, but anyway, there was one person in there who had a brother has a brother, and these people are still loyal, which is why I don't wanna mention their names. Sure. Um, and I remember, hi, the person, the one brother, let's call him, I don't know Dave. Mm-Hmm. Dave I was friends with. He was in, we were both in, we were growing the New York City Center. He brought his brother in, call him Bob.

Speaker 3: Um, and Bob was hemming and hawing. Now Bob is like, went to Stanford, went to Harvard grad school, had a business, and was doing things out into the world that were extremely positive. Um, I've, he felt like doing the curriculum could supplement that, give him language for certain things, help him grow certain things. Dave would come to me and go, look, I want to get Bob in full time. Will you help me? I'd go, yeah, I'll help him bring him goals lab and we'll do certain things, et cetera. And I worked with him and really what I was doing was gaslighting him and I was gaslighting him to, to get him obedient. And in a way, so how were

Dr. Robin Stern: You doing that? Like what? So I

Speaker 3: Would be like, well I was like, you want, like, I was, I was going, why is your business more important than what we're doing? It's like, well it's building humanity. And I go, well look around the room. Everyone here is doing that. Why wouldn't you just do what we're doing? Right. Slowly.

Dr. Robin Stern: So how is slowly that different? Let me ask you one of the questions people always ask me, how is that different than just trying to influence him?

Speaker 3: Because I was trying to make what he was doing bad. Mm-Hmm. Compared to what we were doing. Mm-Hmm.

Sarah and Nippy: And questioning his desires. Yeah. Questioning and having him doubt what he would like to in

Speaker 3: The name of humanity, in the name of growing a, a sinner and stuff like that. And, and ultimately I was successful.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So this is really important for all listeners because it's beyond influencing, it's beyond trying to make somebody understand how you feel. Yeah. It's making them feel bad for how they feel and having Quest and leading them to question themselves, which is completely destabilizing and make you feel like you're after a while at sea and unmoored. Right?

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I feel badly because I feel like I took a force out of the workforce of a positive and I think he's still loyal. Yeah. And all the brothers are. And, and that's the one I think about. And that's the one that's on my conscience. Mm-Hmm. I've made attempts to kind of work around, you know, see how he's doing work, you know, work with his parents a little bit. And I, it's just really one that, that, that gets me. 'cause that's where I feel like I used my conscience to get him to do what we were doing

Dr. Robin Stern: Downloading for free The techniques of gaslighting from your mo from your role models there, right? Yeah. And, and probably they were very deliberate about, these are the things you say. Right. They must be Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: Right. Well I got good at it. Yeah.

Sarah and Nippy: Because well, they they were doing it to us. Yeah. Can I share my, what I feel like I did a lot of Yes, definitely. And, and certainly this was done modeled to like, this is what, how we saw people being worked with sometimes and also was done to us. And I was totally guilty of it, is if somebody had an issue, um, that the first thing like, you know, a non gass lighting response to be like, wow, that's a really important thing. Let me bring that up to the board. I'll bring that to the greens. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Which sometimes I did, I was probably approachable in some ways, but I was also completely guilty of like, well you seem really emotional about that. Um, it might be important for you to journal on what's coming up for you around this and what, why you need it to be that way. To be okay. And, um, and or like how you

Dr. Robin Stern: Have a problem.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah, you have a problem. And, but it was, it was clouded in niceties and clouded in, I'm here to help you. And it was

Speaker 3: Clouded in what if questioning.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah. Like, what if you're wrong? What if, what if you're wrong? What if it doesn't need to be that way? What's going on for you that you need it to be that way? And, um, so that people would leave going, oh, oh, I have an attachment here. I have an, and and I certainly did that too. I'd be like, guys, I think it's time to, you know, redo the website 'cause it's from 1998 and it's, you know, like 2015. It's old. And like, well what, what, what's going on for you, Sarah, that you need the website to be different? What superficial issues have you not worked through? It was always about, or like when I didn't wanna move to Albany. It's like, well, why, how come co what does it mean, Sarah, if comfort and superficial values are more important than your growth? That's how gaslighting looked in N vm. It wouldn

Dr. Robin Stern: Be a gaslighting looks all over. Right.

Sarah and Nippy: You're

Dr. Robin Stern: Absolutely right.

Sarah and Nippy: Yes. And but it was never, it was never me. It was never said meanly. Right. At least from what we saw. Yeah. It was, it was always said. Well, Sarah, you know, , do you remember when I got that feedback, uh, from um, yeah. And she was, this was

Speaker 3: Like when she, when she was late to the meeting,

Sarah and Nippy: She was, someone was late to a meeting and I kind of, and she was a higher ranked me and I kind of said this, you're, you know, you this, you're late to a meeting. She's basically had me questioning. She said, well Sarah, what if time isn't actually linear? What if time is doesn't even exist? What does it mean about you that you need this structure to feel okay? Well,

Speaker 3: She was, she also was late and, and doing, doing it under the guise that she was working Sarah's control.

Sarah and Nippy: She was working my issues by being late. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I just have to jump in here because, um, I don't know if I told you this story, but certainly in my book I wrote about how my, uh, ex-husband was, uh, a good guy, gas lighter, very kind and, and affable. And uh, yet he had a big issue about my having an issue with time. And so whenever he was late Oh,

Sarah and Nippy: I remember that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I would say, you're late and, and you've been late and this is a problem for me and I feel disrespected wanting to have the conversation. Can we talk about it? And he would say, you have a real issue with time and your parents must have had an issue with time that they taught you how how crazy it is that people are supposed to be on time. So I feel you here, I mean, definitely definitely. You know,

Speaker 3: Robin, if you want Yeah. If you're listeners or you want a a a really, and I can just share my experience when I watch the vow. Like Mm-Hmm. , you have to understand, Sarah and I watched the vow after a few episodes as spectators. Like we were finding out a lot of the stuff that the audience was finding out in that time. So the vow became a little bit traumatic to find out that we were aligned with all the stuff that was going on. And, you know, when I saw Keith behind the scenes, if I had ever met that guy, I ain't, I'd beat his. 'cause I, that's not the guy that was presented. And there was one incident in, in a, in a tape recording that my jaw dropped. And it was when Mark Vicente was commenting to Keith about how the women in Albany looked like zombies and sick.

Speaker 3: And he is like, they're not looking good. And he was starting to question. And before I swear to God, even before Mark had finished his sentence, he had, well there's a Harvard study that came out that people that actually see people as zombies and apo like that have an actual problem with that. And he had a Harvard study and he was citing all these things. And that's when I was like, wait a minute, this guy has used his intelligence and his conscious and all that stuff to just do this to people all day long. And he, and he, and he's very proficient at it. He was good. He had it ready. He had it in the chamber.

Sarah and Nippy: Yes.

Speaker 3: Ready, ready to fire whenever he was objecting to anything. And he was going to Harvard study and Mark didn't have anything to say to that. Mark's not gonna contest a Harvard study with someone that kind of has earned authority.

Sarah and Nippy: I say he's a vanguard.

Speaker 3: And so I just saw it and I just saw, oh my God, I bet this is just what went on all the time. All, all the time. People were in his inner circle because that's not the persona he took outside the inner circle. Right. So for me it was like, oh my God, this is what's been going on. And it made sense that the people around them sort of spoke like that.

Sarah and Nippy: Can I add, add something? Please. Or, so we talked to the beginning about how the first thing is were agreeing that any internal discomfort is an issue to work on. Right. So that's like the first thing. But there was the classes in the five day set up exactly what nippy is just talking about A, to trust the authority. But B there was a, there's a module called projection, which is as a therapist, you know, projection is exists. That's a, that's a a a term A term in psychology like that we project. Right. And it's good to know that we project and we're not always accurate, but it was weaponized meaning

Dr. Robin Stern: Putting our stuff onto someone else.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah. Yes. And, and and, and he broke down projection into these different classes. Um, and so that if you're projecting, and basically the premise was, you know, we never know what's going on with somebody else. We're always projecting. Right. Like, I'm looking at you right now, Robin. You have your hands crossed like this and you're smiling a little bit and nodding. That's the, they call that the data. What's the projection? The projection is you're listening to me, you know, you're listening, you're with me. You're nodding. I'm, I that's my projection. I could be accurate. In fact, I'm gonna guess that I'm accurate. You're accurate. But I also could. Right. Okay, thank you. But it also could be that you totally tuned out and that's your face that you're thinking about when you're thinking, what do I have after this? Or thinking about your to-do list or whatever.

Sarah and Nippy: So we were, we came to the awareness, which was also super helpful that we were always projecting we could be accurate, we could be not. So like if somebody doesn't call you back and you're upset, you could be projecting that they're mad, but also could be that they were in a car accident. Right. So like, being open to your hypothesis projection was a really helpful tool. Where it was not helpful is anytime I said something that I saw something somebody else was doing, the response could always be, well how do you do that in your life? So I'm just always projecting. So if I see somebody doing something with bad intent, then it would be an opportunity for them to, to look at that within me. And I see this across the board with all sorts of spiritual groups, uh, yoga groups, um, any, any type of therapy based program where someone's going to like a large group awareness training where someone's going to improve themselves and their life and their goals. It's a protective me mechanism for the leadership against any type of negative anything. Because, or

Dr. Robin Stern: Questioning

Sarah and Nippy: Or questioning any questioning. Right. Why do you need to ask that right now? What's going on for you that you are even raising your hand? Let's look at that. Maybe you need to journal on the emotional reaction that's coming up. Oh, that's just probably based on your past trauma. There's a lot of trauma talk in the world right now. Everything's based on past trauma. Like, well maybe I'm past trauma, there's past trauma. But also you're being an, so can we separate the issues? Exactly. Have you noticed that? Like the whole trauma, the trauma, trauma, trauma. Like, it's like totally being overused as a smokescreen in my opinion.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and stress also. Right. It's because you're stressed out. It's because you were traumatized. You've been through a traumatic period. Yeah. Yeah. So what helped you to wake up and how did you get the courage to walk away?

Sarah and Nippy: Well, it kind of happened abruptly. I mean, there was a lot of things that in the years leading up to it that were problematic that I don't think either of us could wrap our heads around. In many ways though, I believe that we were, we were stressed. We'd been operating at a very high level and high capacity without much of a break for many years. And also having a child, uh, together. We got married in the program, had a, had a baby together and there were just like, just things were falling apart. They were,

Speaker 3: Everything

Sarah and Nippy: Got weirder. Everything got just, yeah, weirder. Some people were like two, you were dying. Two of our purple sashes, the two purple women, the women closest to Keith died the healthiest kombucha drinking like athletic women died suddenly of cancer. And that was like not even a red flag. 'cause I, we, we couldn't under wrap our heads around it at the time. It just, there was a, there was a veil of sort of like, it just got gloomy in a way. Like it wasn't,

Speaker 3: Well, Albany was gloomy around.

Sarah and Nippy: Albany was gloomy too. Mm-Hmm. .

Speaker 3: I mean this, this is a guy who's a, who's a, if a person could be a cancer, he's a, he's a cancer. And I think anyone around him and anyone in his peripheral is gonna feel the effects of that and their lives are gonna be worse. So you have to understand, it was somewhat of a dichotomy for us to go to Mexico City, Los Angeles and Vancouver and people were happy and having a positive experience and not being coerced in the same way to the same extent. And have basically a positive experience. And then go back to the epicenter of Albany and feel like you're going to a funeral and sometimes you were going to a funeral when you went back to Albany. So it was very like, but none of us were suspecting the behind the scenes were going like that 'cause we just weren't there, you know? And you know, anytime we went and questioned the people that were abused, were being abused, were defending the abuser.

Dr. Robin Stern: When did you find out about sex and and trafficking?

Sarah and Nippy: So, so an answer this, and this is like where if people wanna know the details, I think if they read the book, because it's not even really in the vow of how I woke up, but being brought into the women's group, which was supposed to be a secret sorority where I was supposed to get a tattoo, blah, blah blah, ended up being a brand. And it wasn't actually the brand that woke me up. It was finding out that the symbol of my body weeks later was his, was Keith Ranier's initials in a monogram. That's what woke me up. And that's what led to a conversation with Mark Vicente who had me sign an NDA 'cause he was leaving. Everything was shrouded in secrecy. And he shared with me that he knew, which is that there was some secret sorority, which I knew about, but that women were being coerced into blackmailed into sex.

Sarah and Nippy: And I shared what I knew, which is about the branding, which he didn't know. Needless to say, that conversation, you know, there, there was no like, oh, should I stay or should I go? It was like, okay, holy, we're out. Everyone's been right for 12 years. We are mm-Hmm. a cult. Keith is a sociopath. He is running a sex trafficking black male ring and we need to get the out. But we couldn't do it. We couldn't do it overnight. I had to, I kind of played both sides for a couple weeks because I was trying to exit quietly and safely. 'cause I knew that if you put up a stink, they would come after you. So I had to get as many, we, well we had to get as many people out as we could. And we did, we were quite successful. We were able to bring like thousands of people out very, very quickly using the same mechanisms of communication that they'd set up.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I, I went in, I went in. So yeah, I went in and, and I don't know if you saw the vow or I went in and I recorded me confronting Lauren and, and someone.

Dr. Robin Stern: I did not actually see the vow, but I definitely

Sarah and Nippy: Will. Oh, might you got to see the vow.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So Robin, so I basically, so after we were strategic about it, I went in and I was like, look, if you wanna be consistent with our personalities, they're gonna know that I'm gonna go in and get and we need to make it look like this. So I went in and got it was staged and got really, really. And I called out like people and I recorded it and I made, I made a scene at one of the, what's called coach retreats, which we found out a few years later was a big punch and a big blow to them, which is what I wanna do. I wanted to throw my punch and put that in jail. Um, funny thing hap not funny thing happened, but when I, when I went and confronted and you can hear it, um, 'cause I recorded the audio and the vowel has it.

Speaker 3: I went to Jim Gro who was a guy who knew about this stuff and I didn't know he knew about this stuff. And I told him about the branding and the first thing out of his mouth was, what's the actual bad thing? And my response. And I, and when I went in there, I was like, lemme, I'm gonna see what he says when, when I say this to him. If it's not he's horrified, then I know he knows, or I know he's complicit or I know that I'm not gonna enroll him or into like, what's going on. And when he said that, you know, one of two things were true, he knew about it and didn't care or he didn't know about it and doesn't have the appropriate response. Right. And so I knew that I was, I wasn't talking to someone who was, who had, who hadn't replaced his own morality with Keith's

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm. .

Speaker 3: I guess that's, I guess that's what happens when you're around people like this. You replace your own own morality with someone else's. That's

Dr. Robin Stern: A really good way to say it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Um,

Sarah and Nippy: And that was actually a good test from when people reached out to us trying to bring us back. That was it. If I said I was branded, they would say, but what was, what specifically was bad about that? One second. I'm about

Speaker 3: Oh, oh, sorry. And so, and Lauren was there and Lauren was the one I, I contested. And she's like, what if that's not true? And I was, and I, I popped right back. I go, what if it is? You know, I'm yelling at this point. I'm like, 'cause it's so good. That's the gaslighting thing. What if Sure. I'm like, what if it is that's on you now? Like, like I've thrown my punch, I've flipped the tables. I've gone out and done my thing. I I'm not obedient to this anymore. All my thoughts are out now. Right. There's a metaphor, Sarah, the y allow it shelf metaphor. The shelf. She, she loves the

Sarah and Nippy: , you know, the shelf breaking metaphor. You, you, you probably have different terminology for it, but in like, in the, in a gaslighting, abusive, traditional relationship, there's the first thing that happens and you're like, did that really happen? And you put it on a shelf and you put the next thing on the shelf, the doubts, all the doubts and the, and the, and then one day there's the final, the shelf breaks.

Speaker 3: Well, my shelf had had somewhat been broken for, for a while. I just wasn't loud about it. And I just kind of spewed and I was just like, free to go. 'cause like, you know, what are you gonna say to someone being branded and

Sarah and Nippy: His wife was branded with another man's initials. Like, what, what do they expect?

Speaker 3: And to me, I I, at that point, I knew she wasn't the only one. Like, I knew she wasn't the first up to volunteer for this. So I, I just knew that like, I don't care what happens. I know this idea isn't gonna catch on and I don't want to be anywhere near it, and you can gaslight me all you're on. And I'll even say, you're right. Good luck with that. Like, it wasn't like great

Sarah and Nippy: Business model people. Yeah. It

Speaker 3: Wasn't, they didn't have their meat hooks in meat in that degree.

Dr. Robin Stern: So you guys had a lot of courage to, even if it was like, I gotta get outta here to actually do it and to recruit other people to follow you. How are you now? How, how is it to look back and to know that you went through this? Have you been able to be, to give yourself grace, to be compassionate to yourself and to, um, forgive yourself for things that you felt like were not okay? Like, how are you guys?

Sarah and Nippy: Well, you know, we've been out for six years and I think there's been many stages. And there was definitely a time, especially in the first two years where I'd not forgiven myself. And one of the, one of the tenets of NX Im was always like taking responsibility for the things in your life to the point that we were taking over too much responsibility. And whilst I was wanting to clean up our mess of recruitment and building this thing, and I now need to dismantle it, I feel like I was taking too much of, like, there's other people made choices that I couldn't control, you know? And I was, and I wanted to like, fix it for everybody. And I had had a thing, and I still sort of have a thing which is like, I'm not gonna stop talking about this until everybody's awake. And most people are, there's like, I think less than 20 as far as we know of the thousands.

Sarah and Nippy: But I want everybody , I want everybody to wake up. Can I control that? No. Will I keep talking about it? Am I, you know, passionate about the topic? Yes. But in those six years, there's been many stages. A you know, early days, tons of shame, not forgiveness, just like in the same tenacity that I was building, I had the same tenacity to destroy. And that was just as, you know, sort of mission driven and frenetic and, you know, the PTSD of the betrayal trauma and the, um, the what's, uh, the moral injury, which I'll let nippy go into more. But, you know, recognizing that we were building something that was not only not what we said it was, but it was like the opposite of what it was. You know, take a, he took a huge hit to, um, my, my more, my sense of my morality.

Sarah and Nippy: You know, what have I done? My self-esteem, all these things. And then there's the, like, where's my thirties? You know, the despair around l losing over a decade of life. But, you know, nippy and I are the same people that we were when we went in, which that we wanted to help people. That's, that was a big drive of being coaches in NX Im. And so now we actually get to, and doing the vow actually opened up a world for us that we didn't even think existed. And that, you know, documenting how we got in and how we got out, we got messages from around the world, you know, ex Mormons, current Mormons, EXM, Mormons, Jovi's witness, and people from all sorts of extreme groups, abusive relationships going, I had no idea that that was a problem, or, or I knew it was a problem, but I didn't have language for it.

Sarah and Nippy: Or like, oh my God, this thing I'm a part of is totally oc cult or this person's completely been gaslighting me. Or they, now were able to either avoid something or get out of something or heal from something. So I'd say our healing journey, which has had many facets to it, um, part of that has been able to, has been about being with others and helping others and connecting and sharing our, like, the worst possible thing that has ever happened to either of us, I'd say as like a template for, you know, for them to get out and heal has been a huge part of our healing, wouldn't you say?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, our healing journey's different. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, yours is,

Sarah and Nippy: I got branded.

Speaker 3: It is very parallel to mine. Yeah. Um, initially, I mean, I don't know what this really says about me , I'm just gonna say it. Um, it was the embarrassment and humiliation that was like the thing I felt initially, like having that moment of recognizing I had been so wrong. People close to me had been telling me this for quite some time, and having the kind of holistic awareness of like, oh my God, they were right when they read this stuff online. And I was so confident and so bought in and so smug that, well, you, you believe everything you read on the internet. Well, I had the experience and it's not true. Um, just reconciling, you know, that and reconciling my delusion and, and, and the embarrassment of that initially was the worst thing. And then I got to the point I was like, wait a minute.

Speaker 3: If my pride and ego are the only things I get hurt here throughout this process, I think I'm, I think I'm gonna live . There's light at the end of the tunnel. Right? Like, I can reconcile that. And then as I started to educate myself on how these things work, I really got in touch with the moral injury aspect of it. And Yanu Lauch has the book, um, that gets into I think eight different things. And the moral injury one to me was the one that hurt the most because I had bet on something based on my principles and morality. Right? And at the end of the day, when you put your head in the pillow, what do you, what if you're not lying and you're not cheating and you're not doing any of those things in your life, your morality, you can sleep. Right?

Speaker 3: And I kind of felt like, you know, I was living that life, um, to find out that I was aligned with things that were so egregious, so abusive, and, and, and at worse complicit in getting people, um, to join and be a part of. It was a thing that was very difficult for me to go, am I not, am I a bad person? Like, I had to go, I had to go into that world and, and, and explore that. 'cause I really felt like a bad person, you know? And, and, and there's a, there's a great example that I've heard is imagine, you know, in going to the Marines or an army and under the guise of fighting for freedom, when you end up in another country pulling women and children out of a hut and, and doing bad things, it's, it's how do you, how do you reconcile that?

Speaker 3: And for me, it was a little bit of that. And then, you know, once I was able to kind of transcend that and, and understand this is what they prey on, this is how it works, admitting that you were a victim Mm-Hmm. and that you were conned is another, another process because it messes with your intelligence and it's not an intelligence thing. And you have to really integrate the factor that it's not an intelligence thing, right? Because everyone's like, everyone's like, oh, you're so stupid. You fell for that. No, I believed in something and I bet on something wrong. And I went all in on something. I don't think that's a bad thing. The premise.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and people who were highly intelligent learn how to question themselves and to, and unpack things and take things apart. And, and we are almost out of time. And so I was gonna ask you, oh, sorry, to, I was gonna No, please don't apologize for sharing yourself and, um, powerful insights and thank you for being both so open and vulnerable with us. And, and I was gonna ask you to leave us with some key takeaways, and I would say you just left us with a few that forgiveness is really important and that, um, even people who are incredibly intelligent can get caught up with emotional hooks to, uh, betray themselves. And, and that, uh, when you've been through an experience like this, you can bring healing to yourself by healing others as well, and that you can continue your mission to be there for others and make us make a better world for, for humanity. And what else would you wanna leave people with

Sarah and Nippy: In regards to healing,

Dr. Robin Stern: In regards to any key takeaways from your journey, from healing

Sarah and Nippy: In regards to healing and the overall journey? I'd say we've really learned that, you know, you can be on a path to self betterment, to growth or whatever, but you, you don't have to feel, in fact you aren't broken. And this is sort of where the book ends, um, which was, by the way, four years ago, and there's been a lot of healing since then. Um, but that I, especially as somebody who kind of got into trouble here with saying yes and overriding some feelings, because I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be part of something bigger. I was driven to, to have this, this mission that would feel more important than just being an actress. Um, and to feel also like special and to part of my healing has really been, and not in a self-flagellation way, but like to understand my psychology that I was looking for belonging.

Sarah and Nippy: I, I enjoyed, I enjoyed how I felt being part of this like, special club, and so that I can keep an eye on that as I go forward and we get invited to things that I can go, am I, am I doing it again or is this, you know, that's, it's a pattern that I am constantly aware of and I've learned thanks to nippy, I think to say either no, or I'll get back to you on that, because in the moment it does feel so good to be like, yeah, totally. Oh, you want, you want me? Sure. Yeah, let's do it. Um, versus thank you so much for that offer. I'm gonna check my schedule and get right back to you. And that's been big. And then there's tons of other things that we talk about in our podcast that I'm a big advocate for, like Epsom salt baths and not culty yoga classes. Like, just stay away from everything that's, you know, got a dogma or wants you to drop everything to be a part of it. And if you are a part of something and you feel like you can't question it or you feel like you can't leave without being excommunicated or shunned, those are just a couple of little red flags. But you know, you, you can Google very easily. Now, um, what are some of them, oh, by the way, Robin, since I saw you last, or did I send my Ted talk or TEDx talk to you?

Dr. Robin Stern: No, but I, I'm actually wondering if I did see a couple of the beginning of the vow, because I think that I watched a people anyway, that's not the theory of that,

Sarah and Nippy: But No, but I'll send it to you because it might be good for your show notes, because we didn't get too much into like, what are the red flags specifically cults. Yes. Um, and I, I cover some of the basics that maybe your audience might be interested in. I know we're almost running outta time. Can I ask you a question that I meant to ask you when you were on our podcast?

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. But I really want you to read your poem. Can you read your

Sarah and Nippy: Poem? How read a poem? Okay. Yeah. Maybe you'll have to just come back to our podcast. How about that?

Dr. Robin Stern: I'd love to .

Sarah and Nippy: Okay. Okay. So this is from the book Scarred, uh, the true story of how I escaped N xm the cult that bound my life. This is the poem that opens up the book, the Scar, it's fading now reminds me that he never owned me. Their silence erodes the memories of our friendship and leaves me naked. Where was I before I met you? Floating and eager too young to catch the flags my heart open and pure. I have love around my neck. Me too. Their voices merged around me and held my hand so I could speak before I leave to heal. I plant barbed wire between us and wrap myself in cashmere sheets. I'm back ready for the leaves to turn and to start again.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's so beautiful. Thank you. So beautiful.

Sarah and Nippy: Lots, lots of, uh, memories for me in there, .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. You know, I know it's been a while since you left, and thank goodness. And, um, and yet it's always, um, a meaningful question for me to ask like how you're doing. Mm-Hmm. , when you revisit it now, what does it look like from the hot air balloon of six years later? ?

Sarah and Nippy: I think, you know, I feel like I'm doing, I think I'm doing pretty well. I, I, there's been a tremendous amount of, um, constant healing and self-care and evaluation and education and therapy. And I feel like, you know, I'd say that we're out on the other side in a pretty solid way, and there's not, it's not perfect. Like there's waves of things that hit me every now and then, things in the news or somebody reaching out and emotional challenges. But I'd say that our foundation is solid and appreciate you asking ask, asking that as well. And

Speaker 3: I'd add to that, I'd say we have a lot of wisdom. Unfortunately, I say this a hundred percent, unfortunately, I feel vindicated for following what we fail for, because I see it going on rampantly right now, uh, where people can't agree on anyone. They gaslight people's perspectives. It's going on in politics, it's going on in the me medical field. It's going on everywhere. You can't challenge anything right now without being called a name. And I would, I would impart on your audience, you know, a couple things, uh, going forward, if you can't challenge the authority, you're not gonna change 'em by challenging 'em more. That just, that's just been my experience in it, is they, they either know what they're doing or they're too dug in, in their belief systems. Um, and it's kind of the, it's kind of the cause of our time. It's, it's, you know, there's a lot of gaslighting going on and people do it a lot. And I would just say challenge it. If you can't, then you're not really with a group that I think really wants to promote critical thinking

Dr. Robin Stern: Or a psychological safety.

Sarah and Nippy: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you both so very much. I was going to invite you guys to come back so I can answer your question because I know, where can people find you? Tell us where can people buy your book? Where can people listen to your pod? Where can people watch your TED talk? Sure.

Sarah and Nippy: People can find us at a little bit culty on Instagram. I'm Sarah Edmondson on Instagram and nippy at, uh, Anthony

Speaker 3: Ames, 11.

Sarah and Nippy: And we also have a little bit culty.com website where we have tons of resources and Patreon, uh, links to the book, which you can also buy wherever you get books. But I'm also, I narrated the audible, which is kind of cool if people are more like, prefer to listen. They can have my voice in their ear. And if you type in Sarah Edmondson Ted Talk, you'll find it. But I'll, maybe I'll give it to you for your show notes as well, if you'd like to include that. Fantastic.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you.

Sarah and Nippy: Easy access. Yeah. And we're, we're very accessible. We try to apply, uh, reply to people and, and respond to all our comments and connections.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for being there for so many people who need you.

Sarah and Nippy: Thank you, Robin.

Speaker 3: Thank you, Robin.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Suzan Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.