Podcast Player Episode 041

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect Podcast. So I am really honored today to have with me Lucas Mack, who is a healer and a champion for kindness, for love, for surviving and thriving, and for tenderness, making a difference, for psychological safety for all humans. So Lucas, please tell us your story.

Lucas Mack: Oh my goodness, thank you, first of all, again, for having me on my, my story. It's funny to say even story because I was a journalist, broadcast journalist for a long time, and I was a storyteller. And, um, then I lived this crazy story. I, my, I grew up in an incredibly abusive home in every category was abused. And one of the categories I talk about to people in the religious world is I gr I experienced tons of religious abuse and spiritual abuse as well. Um, which tied into the gaslighting, um, that I dealt with. But

Dr. Robin Stern: Tell us about that along the way of your story, please.

Lucas Mack: Yeah, I, I certainly will. So I grew up, um, in a, I mean, looking back, I was always confused. The, I say the two words that ruled my life were fear and confusion. I didn't understand what was going on. I didn't understand the family that I came from. Um, religion played a massive, massive role. Uh, Jewish lineage on my mother's side, um, Irish Jesuit Catholic on my father's side and these two worlds. And also Christian heritage. On my mother's side, there was this confluence of worldviews and confluence of who's right and who's wrong, and judgment and this narrative of God and, um, love and salvation and heaven, hell, mercy, forgiveness, all these words that got infused into my childhood. All the while I was getting abused in every category. And so that's where confusion, I, I I wanted to be loved so badly, so badly.

Lucas Mack: And I have a son now, and I look at him, I, my children. I'm the father that I wished I would've had. Yes, I've never hit my children. I, I I called space for them. And it's been interesting and I'll get back to my story, but it's interesting. My son is so sensitive and he's brilliant. He's smart, but he's very sensitive. And I look at him and it's been interesting from my healing journey because there are times when he would cry and I'd get like, Ugh. And I'd get angry and I'm like, why am I getting angry? And what I realized was, I'm getting angry. I'm first of all the imprint of the, the rage I got beat if I cried until I stopped crying. So I had to just, I could not e emote. If I emoted there would be more pain. So I just learned to stuff it in and suck it in.

Lucas Mack: And, and so here I have this beautiful son who's very sensitive and, and I had these like, visceral responses to it, but I never pulled him, but I could feel it. I was really aware of myself. And what I realized is it's the imprint that was put upon me. I'm reacting, but I'm also angry if, as if I was him from what happened. And so there was this interesting and beautiful generational healing and cycle that that's taken place. And, and I look at my son, like that's who I'd be. I mean, I'm ultimately thankful for who I am today. 'cause I've been able to help a lot of people heal. However, there's been many times in my life where I wish that wasn't me. And I wished away my life. And I try to take my life. And, um, and I look at my son, I'm like, what a beautiful example of what sensitivity and smarts and curiosity looks like.

Lucas Mack: Um, and so I, I don't know how I got on that, but growing up, um, he's lucky to have you. Thank you. Thank you. He is, he's, I have three daughters and one son. And, um, it's been such a beautiful journey. And it's interesting. My oldest knows a lot about the family. I, I come from not a lot, I mean, I won't give her a lot of details, but we have no contact with, um, my dad. We, I helped my mom escape in the middle of the night in 2016. Um, and that was a crazy story as well. But I mean, that, that's when I was 30 , 34 years old. So a lot of time had passed where the control mechanism of this narcissistic sociopath with a public. And I grew up in a public facing home. So on the outside, everyone knew who my, I I'd hear my whole life, oh, you're so lucky to have your dad.

Lucas Mack: Oh, oh, you're so lucky. Have your dad. And, and I'm not here to rip on him. It's interesting. I'm sure he'll listen to this podcast 'cause he, that's what he does. Um, but in an interesting way, I was talking to this coach, healing coach, this guy that does interpretive dreams, and I had a really beautiful conversation with him last month. And he said, it really saved your life. Because I had to put on an image outside the home as if it was pristinely perfect. I I had to smile. I was smile and, and then I'd go inside the home and it was hell. And I was depressed and I was scared and I was anxious and I had massive anxiety and lots of physical issues from all the abuse. And, but then when I went outside the house, it was this duality that I lived, and it would be like that my whole life because we'd go to church that, you know, it was just, it was an insane, and then I was trying to protect my brother. I had a younger brother. I was trying to protect him. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm gonna jump in because that, that discrepancy between what you're actually feeling and going through and the external face you have to put on the, the public facing face Yeah. Is, has a name. And that's called emotional labor.

Lucas Mack: And

Dr. Robin Stern: When you are living emotional labor, like a lot of people in the service industries do that. Nurses do it, therapists do it, educators do it. And we all do it sometimes because you may be going through something and, and you are, you need to be at a meeting, and so you need to put on a different face. But when you're living it and when the, the discrepancy is huge and you're really suffering inside, but you have to smile on the outside, it's exhausting. It causes you to feel alienated from yourself. It causes you to be like torn inside. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll get back there, but first I'd really like to walk with you through, through the journey of your life so that you're painting a picture for people like you, you got up in the morning and, and you went to the breakfast table and you, so like, what did it look like for, you wanna know what your life was like that you were experiencing that kind of ongoing abuse?

Lucas Mack: Yeah, it was, um, my dad was a, an educator, so he was always gone. I, I'd rarely see my dad. Um, he was around, uh, I just have snapshots of him and I have big blocks of time that I don't recall certain. A lot of memories have come back. I've done, I've done a lot of work to heal and, and, um, actually psychedelics and holotropic breath work have brought a lot of memories back. First person. Um, and when I say psychedelics, like in its setting, facilitated setting, um, not recreationally, but, um, my mom was depressed. Uh, she got chronically ill when I was in sixth grade, so I was 12. And I lost essentially my mom. My mom stopped being my mom functionally, she would cry and she would scream in bed all day long. And, and I remember looking at her one day when I was 12, and I was scared of my dad in the house.

Lucas Mack: My brother had a speech impediment. He was, he was just like cat, he was just rocking. He was very small. And I'm standing in the door jam in my parents' bedroom, watching my mom just ride and scream. And I'm like, I am all, I'm all alone. I have no one. And it really continued, um, it continued. I'm trying to think of like what I wouldn't see my dad at during the week. And, um, I would see him at night. But one thing about growing up the house, it's funny, I was talking to someone the other day, I thought my dad was God. I mean, truly the way he talked about himself, the way he told stories, you would, you would've thought he was, I never understand he was a football coach. I'll never understand why he is not in the NFL. Why is he not an NFL coach? And here he is a junior high and high school coach, but the way of talk told stories and he's this larger than life.

Dr. Robin Stern: So when, when would he abuse you? When did you feel like you were, um, uh, that you were just there in the room and he was taking something out on you? Was it in a conversation? Was it around your mom? Like how did it happen for you?

Lucas Mack: Um, yeah, I truly, I don't know what triggered it. It would be, and I would always have to, he would, like at dinner table, go sas your mom. He'd just like, and I'm like, I don't even know what sassing was. And he would just go, like, he would go ballistic. Um, I don't know ever what triggered I have no. And later in life, before I stopped talking to him, I said, what, you know, what did I do? And he said, were you a strong-willed child? And I go, well, what does that mean? Would I say no? I wouldn't have said, I know, I wouldn't have said no . I was fully submissive in that house. And so that's all he kept saying is, you're a strong-willed child.

Dr. Robin Stern: Oh. And so even his telling you that you, it was my fault, that punishing you, that was your fault. My fault. Yeah. And friend. Yeah. He was punish.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. The, the, the, the abuse though was, I say surgical. He, I would always have to go into his room. He'd be waiting for me. I'd have to take my pants and underwear off. I'd have to bend over a bed so I'd have my bare, you know, butt facing him. And then I would get a leather belt over repeatedly. So in that, in, in hindsight, I ended up having massive, I had sibo, I was diagnosed with SIBO and diverticulitis. I had so much gut and stomach issues because, and I can even right now, knowing that I would have to enter that room knowing what was gonna happen, it did, it really did something in my gut. It messed me up, um, in my digestive system later on in life. 'cause it was just like, ugh, I'd have to walk in. And he also had this mask, and I don't know, this is like one of these weird things that I don't know, but he would put a mask on and he would chase me, and it was this, um, like a latex freaky looking mask. Um, and I, I don't know where he got it. My brother remembers it. He doesn't know, you know, we're like, what was that? Yeah. To scare us and terrorize us in the home.

Dr. Robin Stern: I remember in your, in your TED talk, you talked about how he would describe it as, um, uh, like a, the best form of

Lucas Mack: Oh yeah. He said the purest form of discipline is intimidation. Intimidation is the purest form of discipline. He would tell us all the time, he would say, these quotes, and I write about this in this book that I've coming out, he would say these quotes that I also asked where he got these quotes. Because now that I've gone into more like psych, psych learning about psychological warfare and MKA ultra and all these different things, like these are not just random philosophical ideas that he had. These are techniques of, um, trauma psycho, yeah, psychological warfare and, and to control, to control people. Um, in fact, I told him, my therapist, when I first finally went to therapy, and I talked about it in my Ted Talk, I went to therapy every single week, sometimes twice a week for two years, because we started getting gang stocked by him and his, his network when I started talking about it. And I had an employee get paid off to log into iMessage on her computer, to message my mom to come outta hiding as me. She was messaging her as me. Um, I, I mean, it was an absolutely insane story. Is this,

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm sorry. I mean, just have so many questions, so you Yeah,

Lucas Mack: Yeah, yeah. I know. And I wanted to be congruent, but it's so much, it's so much.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing, and there is so much to tell. Yeah. Um, when did you start to really, I mean, it sounds like all along, of course you knew you were in pain and you knew it was not okay, but when did you realize not only was it not okay, but you could get out? Like, when did you think, I, I have to get outta here. I can't, I mean, I know you attempted suicide, which is just Yeah. Heartbreaking to, to really think about a young boy just wanting to end his life. So what, aside from knowing that you could leave in that way, what did you, when did you realize you really could leave, like sever your ties? And

Lucas Mack: It wasn't until I went to this emotional, I, it, it's so weird to talk. I'm an intelligent, I mean, not that I'm more intelligent than someone else, but I know I'm intelligent. I'm well read. I'm a published author. I've been, I've built a multimillion dollar company. I've done all these things. And yet it wasn't until really I was 38 years old, um, 36 to 38 that I started truly breaking away. Um, my whole, in fact, up until 20, the end of 2018, my mind was filled with my dad's voice. I, there was no thought that I had in, and this is not hyperbolic. 24 hours a day, I'd get up when I was awake, my dad's voice was in my head. Mm-Hmm. And I remember when I was, two years into, when I started my company, I called him to tell him. 'cause I, the weird thing is I wanted his approval. I wanted, it was like I would do anything for it,

Dr. Robin Stern: Of course.

Lucas Mack: And I did. I I, I did as much as I could. I remember calling him one time and, and seeing, you know, what I'm doing in business. And it wasn't even that big a deal. And he screams at me and goes, what do you think? You're better than me. And I, it just like, someone pierced me through the heart, just like, it, it broke me. I hung up and I was crying and I'm like, then I have to go deal with my employees and tried to deal with business. It was the weirdest thing having, I was like a child and I'm a big, I'm 6 3, 2 50. I'm not a small person, but I was like a little five or 6-year-old boy in this body up until I was 38 years old.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and that need and want for approval, especially from your dad. Yeah. Keeps you hooked. Yeah. I mean, so powerful. You can't, you can't think about leaving. You need that approval. We all wanna be seen and heard, but especially by our parents. Yeah,

Lucas Mack: Yeah. In this larger than life. I mean, when I was 17 years old, I took this gal on a date, went to a, went to, my dad was a high school football coach. So we went to his football game. And this is a a an example of my mindset. Went to a football game, went to dinner right after, and drove her home. Not late. I wasn't, didn't break curfew. There was no weird business. It was like, you know, I was like an honorable kid. And I'll tell a story here in a sec that my, how my brother and I deviated in under and the way we coped with what happened to us. But I take her home, I pull in the driveway, and all of a sudden this truck pulls right up behind me with its brights on, like, just to intimidate. And I'm like, what the heck?

Lucas Mack: This girl go, the girl was freaked out and the GI was bringing in, and I go, I think that's my dad. And I'm like, I get outta the car. And I'm like, and this is before, so I didn't have a cell phone. This is, I'm like, how did he know where I was? This was my first thought was, how does he know where I where I am? And so I get out, I come up to his car and he goes, get home now. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so I think I'm gonna get just beat. I'm 17 years old, I'm afraid I'm gonna get a beating of a lifetime. And he goes in, he doesn't say anything. He goes to his room, I drive in, I don't talk to him. And the next morning, so that was a Friday night. The next morning I asked him, I said, how did you know where I was? And he said, God told me. And I truly believed God told him this, this concept of God, what? God, you're not telling me anything, but you tell this man where I am. And I know now how he found out. Um, however that I believed, I mean, it's hard to describe. I literally believed God told him where I was. So he had this, I always believed he could get me at any time, anywhere. How did, I mean that psychological warfare right there? Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, he, you were living in his bubble. I mean, that's it. You were living

Lucas Mack: I was his property. Yeah. My mom, my brother and I were his property. My and I and just, uh, I don't wanna necessarily tell my brother's story, but I didn't, we were sexually abused. But consciously, I didn't even know what was until I was 18 years old. This is, I watched the movie something about Marry, and I was like, what is that? Even though I'd gone through health class, this is, this is how bizarre of a story and what abuse can do to people. I watched the movie,

Dr. Robin Stern: If you were to, if you were to replace the word bizarre of a story or that phrase with other more feeling words

Lucas Mack: Say Sad.

Dr. Robin Stern: Sad,

Lucas Mack: Yeah. Which I don't wanna get sad right now, but it it is sad.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.

Lucas Mack: And, um, my brother went the opposite route. He became addicted to, you know, sex and addicted that route. And so here we are, same experiences, and I completely shut down. And he, you know, craves that. And, and we talk, my brother and I are incredibly close now. We weren't for a long time. We were raised to be enemies. Um, but now we're close.

Dr. Robin Stern: Dad probably couldn't tolerate the idea that there'd be all that you, right.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so that's, I guess I'm trying to objectively look at myself. That's a weird, like, that's a snapshot of here I have to watch a movie to learn something that I have shut down of things that I've experienced personally. And my brother goes the opposite route. But we both experienced the same thing. And so this has also helped me have compassion and hold space for, it doesn't matter what any of us have gone through. And it doesn't matter how we've coped with it. It's only matters. Do we want to heal and be free because there's no judgment. I mean, I talk to my Ted talk that we can't judge people's behavior because of behavior is only an output of an internal belief system. And when we've been treated like the worst piece of property, our internal belief system, I, I hated myself. I, I hated myself. So when you ask the question, when did I kind of break free? I don't think I ever did. Because I would never it on him that he was the reason I turned it on me that I was the reason. Well, that's

Dr. Robin Stern: And so that's gaslighting all the time. Yeah,

Lucas Mack: Yeah. True. I, we were gaslit all that. My whole every day was a gas. When I watched the movie Gaslight, I'm like, that is my dad. I mean, it was, um, and I saw my mom slowly fade away from this vibrant, very intelligent creative, um, to riving on the bed. And

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, just like in that movie. Yeah. Just like a movie that gaslighting in is in its extreme can be soul destroying. Yeah. So your father abused you, your father sexually abused.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: And did he ever own that in, during your course of healing at all?

Lucas Mack: He's never owned anything. He's never owned anything. And I've talked to other people that have been sexually abused by their, their family. And they say that, they're like, I talked to this one woman who works@stopabuse.org and, and her father passed without ever giving. I said, will he ever, did he ever give you that acknowledgement? And she's like, no. I'm like, man. And so at that time I was like, I'll just, I have to let go of wanting to, I was so angry. I was like, one time we were on a phone call when I started talking about it. 'cause I started having these flashbacks and that it put all my third person memories back in first person. And I didn't understand what was happening. And, and, but I remembered all these things. And, and I've told him in downtown Seattle, and I'm on the phone and he's like, what do you want me to do? And I'm

Speaker 3: Like, tell the truth. Tell the truth.

Lucas Mack: And all these people, I mean, crowded downtown, everyone. And I just like, I would do anything. Just tell the truth. Please, I will forgive you. I would absolve you, I would bring you back in. Just tell the truth. And then it couldn't, he couldn't even admit he's ever actually made a mistake, . So if he, it's like if you made a mistake, it would pull the thread and the whole thing went unravel. I think so,

Dr. Robin Stern: So heartbreaking to hear your story. Um, but so wonderful and how courageous you are that you were able to turn the corner. So tell us about that. When did you, was it at that emotional intelligence meeting or seminar, um, or lecture that you turned the corner? And then how did you decide to like, leave your work and take on this, the new, the next chapter of your life, become a healer, become a coach, and a champion for this for other people?

Lucas Mack: Oh, when I, um, at the age of 20, I, I tried to commit su or I, yeah, I attempted suicide. And, um, that night when I didn't die, I tried to drive off a bridge. I unbuckled my seatbelt and I floored it to go off this bridge. And this, all I hear is, ah, and all of a sudden this semi-truck is like right there. And I, I swerve and he hits the side rail of this bridge. And, and I'm like, I am literally freak out. I'm not. I'm having a full out of body experience. And I, it, my first thought is, I'm angry at God. And I'm like, you won't even let me die. I mean, I was screaming, I don't wanna scream on this podcast, but I was screaming at God that he wouldn't even let me. It means

Dr. Robin Stern: A bad way. If you need to scream, it's fine to scream. Okay.

Lucas Mack: Okay, , I don't wanna startle everyone because I can really let a rib out. But, um, and that night, and, and I, why I have to bring God back in this. 'cause I was in such a religious home and I was anorexic when I was 19. What

Dr. Robin Stern: Religion was it? I mean, you

Lucas Mack: Well, we went to, we started going to this evangelical, uh, church, but also having a grandfather Judaism, and then this Catholic fundamental Catholic family, uh, from my dad's side.

Dr. Robin Stern: So it was all happening. Did you go to synagogue and church and

Lucas Mack: We wanna go to synagogue. We'd have, we do more like messian, like Seder, you know, we would do some of that, but want to go, um, my great-grandfather was a, a rabbi that became a Christian later on his life and then helped start the Messianic movement. And so just bizarre I mean, just all

Dr. Robin Stern: Podcast. Go

Lucas Mack: Ahead. Yeah. Another podcast, another story. But all that is constantly present in my reality. And, um, so I had an so two 50 right now, healthy weight 300, uh, six three. But I got down to 1 72 and I was, I looked like skeleton. And um, that was when I was 19. I was 28, attempted suicide. But that night I didn't die. I took it as a miracle. I took it that there was, and, and there's more to the story of like what was happening where I was going. And my dad was accused of doing something to a student earlier that week. And that was like the last straw I couldn't take. I couldn't take, I couldn't take it anymore, . Um, but when I didn't die, I, I went hard. I, I went into religion for myself and I went and I studied Buddhism and Barita and red Hindu is, and, and I started reading twice.

Lucas Mack: . Yeah, yeah. I started, it was good. And, but I ended up wanting to understand what this Christian narrative was like, what is this thing that has become so weaponized? And, and so I went hard in the paint. I describe it as like a basketball term. Um, in my Christian path, I wanted to understand what it was, but I always wanted to expose what it was. So it was like this reformer type narrative of, and I had read the King James Bible seven times cover to cover in 14 years. I had fasted from Sunday night to Tuesday morning, water fast for five years in a row. I would, I mean, I really tried to live a holy, I tried to clean away this dark tar that I felt always on me. I also always felt dirty. And by the time I had read the Bible for the seventh time cover to cover, in addition to all these other texts, all this, all this other work from Seders Jewish or savers to all these spiritual texts, all the paths, I was still struggling with who I was.

Lucas Mack: I wasn't different. I could just recite like almost a verbal assassin, all these scriptures. I, um, but I was still struggling aside. So I got really angry and disillusioned. And, and around that time is when I started having the flashbacks. And it happened because I, I got into an emotional affair with an employee. I'm just going to tell the whole story. Um, and when that ended, I told my wife and I called my parents like, I'm a little boy to confess here. I have all these employees. I have a company, I have three kids, a published author. Been a TI mean, I had all the things on the outside, same things. Smile, looked good, beautiful family.

Lucas Mack: But I was dying on the inside. And so I call my parents to confess, like I'm a little kid. And the first thing my dad says is, um, he screams at me my, and he's like, I would never do that to your mother. And right then I was in such a vulnerable place, right? Then he said that, and I describe it like in Star Wars, where they're about to go into Hyperdrive and you see space and then it goes, and all the stars went in. That's, in that moment, I hung up and I did not know. So my wife and I went from, she was heartbroken, sad to all of a sudden, I am in a different reality. I'm having to like rub the carpet to even understand if she's there. I'm here. And I started having first person memory. So I used to hover over my body.

Lucas Mack: I say on my Ted talk, I got beat with a, a bull whip. And I would float over my body. So I even right now, I can see, I know exactly. But all of a sudden I started being back in my body. My, it was like my memory started going. So I was back, face into the bed, getting hit, face, all these things, first person. And it was like tidal waves. I mean, they were slamming hard. And, and it was happening so fast. And so I didn't know my wife, it went from heartbreak to like, what is going on with my husband? And so I, that's when I went into therapy that week. That was a, that was a Saturday night. Thursday I got into a therapist and it was a male therapist, which is a big deal for, for me at the time. 'cause I didn't feel safe around men.

Lucas Mack: Um, and he was a beautiful, sweet, gentle Jewish man that, um, I don't know if it's relevant, he's Jewish. But I like that there was some, like, there was this beautiful gentle man, and he taught me what it meant to be a healthy father. A healthy, um, healthy person. He would say, like for instance, my dad would always tell me, if you're gonna be a kamikaze, make sure you hit your target. And the therapist said, your dad would say what? He's like a kamikaze. He is a suicide, um, soldier. And I was like, he's like, so you who dealt with suicide were told constantly, if you're gonna commit suicide, make sure you hit your target. And I'm like, you know, these things were like exploding my, I was like, what the, and he would say things like, the therapist would say, well, you've grown up with this, but a healthy father would do this.

Lucas Mack: And it was like, these thoughts, and it's so weird about the psyche is when I talk about, when I reference not knowing what was, these, it was like, my spectrum of thinking was so narrow. But this broad, it is like he inserted rods into my mind. I would say it was like someone inserted a rod into my brain that expanded. Like, and then it was logical. It was like, of course that's what a healthy father would do. But it wasn't in my, my wheelhouse and we're ready for it. I wasn't ready for it. You were ready for it then. Oh, I was, yeah. Then, but it wasn't before. But I was finally humble enough. I that's, I had to be humble enough 'cause I was in such ego, I was so judgmental. And this dream coach that I was talking to, he goes, you know, it's really crazy you didn't become a sociopath yourself.

Lucas Mack: And I said, I know them. It was almost like I played the game to be outbeat him because I wanted to beat him at it. But I hated him more than I, I loved love more than I hated him. And so that's really what I mean. I felt a lot of, even, it's interesting, I've had all narcissists have been sexually abused. That is my anecdotal experience to when I help people heal. But it's also my deep held belief why we're dealing with a narcissistic world is I believe the majority of humanity has been sexually abused. And the physical beatings mask the, the sexual abuse. And it's easier. 'cause the physical stuff is what I was dealing with at first. And then the layers, the, it's been, I've had to get, I've had to do a lot of work to really, 'cause I, I didn't bathe my children ever. Not one time in five years I had three kids and I could never bathe them. And all my wife, she would say like, why not? And I'd say, oh, my dad showered with me and that's all I could get out. And she was like, okay. But then years later, after all this, I really started like, what, what, what did that mean? Well, I'm eight years old, showering with my father and what he was doing in that shower and what I had to experience and, um,

Dr. Robin Stern: And what you had to deny.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. This is why I hated myself because I felt like I was wrong. Like I was dirty. Like I carried this tar. I couldn't clean it off. I couldn't wash it off. I couldn't spray it off. I couldn't study it off. I couldn't work it out off. Like I tried everything. I couldn't look good enough to get it off. And one of my closest friends, um, she's one of Oprah's super soul teachers and Hay House author, she's Gord Benet. She's, she's incredible. And we had a call one day and I was talking to her about, I, I just have this tar, I can't get it off me. And she said, well, you're the light. And I'm like, yeah. She's like, so just increase your light and burn it off. And so she did this exercise with me where we found this dial. And I do this now in men's retreats where we found, find the power dial inside of us. And then we just increased the heat. And, and for however it worked from that day on, it burned off the tar. I burned it off from the inside out versus trying to find an external application to clean it off myself.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's so beautiful.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: How brave you were.

Lucas Mack: It's interesting why so make this about my dad, but it's um, 'cause he's just a man and he was abused. You know, I see the cycles. I understand what, you know, what it all is. But I, I really believe in soul contracts. This is one of the things that I've come to believe in when I was studying, because I almost, I almost converted to Orthodox Judaism. I'm a couple, well, I studied with this acid of gravity, one of my really good friends for years. And, um, he and I, because I could, I have almost a, have a huge memory of the scriptures and genesis of revelation from the, the Christian Bible. So we would talked scripture in Doc Torah and I could, it, we just had the greatest relationship. Um, but he was teaching me in Judaism, they talked about the three states of the soul, the soul before the body, the soul in the body, the soul after the body.

Lucas Mack: And the three lives essentially that exist with the soul. And as I thought about that and what does that, what does that mean? And what is our soul and what is free will and is free will an expression of love. You know, I, I love you. So I let you, if I look at my children, I love them and I, I want to guide them, but I want them to experience life and always know that they're safe to come back to me. And I'm always a safe space no matter what they do at all. I'm like, that to me seems like an expression of love, which allows free will. So I think of this concept of God, like when did free will start? Did free will start if you believe, you know, I'm not saying no one has to believe in free will or whatever.

Lucas Mack: I know it's a philosophical question, but if it exists, then when did it begin? And so I started thinking, well, did it begin when we left our mother's womb and entered this realm? Or has it always existed? So if it's always existed, then did our soul choose the story? And I really believe, and I've seen this in, in different visions and different, um, experiences that I believe God is love. And we have been so hung up on this word, God, that we've forgotten to really define what love is . And we've allowed the, the abuser to tell us what love is. And love is conditional. Love hurts. You know, these songs that go into the zeitgeist of humanity that love creates pain. But that's not love. Love does not hurt. And love is not conditional. There is no such thing as conditional love. There's only love and it's always unconditional.

Dr. Robin Stern: So how do you, I'm sorry, I know I'm cutting you off, but No,

Lucas Mack: Go, go. Fine.

Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, how I apologize. How do you coach people, teach people to connect with that love in themselves? Hmm. How do you share your experience healing with others so that they can heal themselves at through love

Lucas Mack: This. A this is everything truly like everything. This question, and I think I can tie it in with just finishing how I view the soul for a second, is that, um, if the LOF free will has always existed and our souls chose the story, then at the highest level, we are here in these bodies to be agents or prognosticators of love. We are to here to say, I've gone through this so that I can know this so I can share this. And it's not, well, how would we be grateful had we not gone through, you know, we can't Dark precedes light. In Genesis, it says the Earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and then comes light. And I've always seen that darkness bows to light. It's not a, I have this quote behind me. Darkness is not a counter force to light.

Lucas Mack: Darkness exists in the absence of light. The minute light comes, darkness, bows in honor. It just fades away. And I understand that there's like your car, car, yes. Yes. And it's, I know there's a talent of balance. And it, and it, you know, and, and I understand the teaching of, you know, there's always a little darkness and light and there's always a little light and darkness. But I know that none of us have ever opened closet door bracing ourselves for darkness to spill out. We know inherently that when we open that door, light enters and we can see. And so I believe that we've all gotten this opportunity to see, and that every person has played their perfect role. My dad played his perfect role. And I, and, and this is a hard concept. This is the hardest thing that I teach.

Lucas Mack: Did my dad at a soul level love me so much that he was willing to play the devil so that I could go and experience and help be a catalyst in this world to help people heal? This is a question that I, this is the deepest 'cause I've had to thank God for. I've had to give g gratitude for every drop of blood that has spilled out of me. Every everything, everything has made me who I am. So this is where you ask like, how do I teach about love? I believe love is synonymous with oxygen.

Lucas Mack: And the breath in Hebrew is hamama is our soul. So the deeper we can breathe, the more love we, we intake, we express carbon dioxide, we express all that which is not healing and necessary. We express that which no longer serves us, and trees and the vegetation absorb it and then transmute it back to us. And so there is this constant relationship of giving and receiving. And what I teach and about love, especially with men, and I talk about the chromosomes, is that, that the X women have two X chromosomes. And if you look at this X chromosome, if you look at the symbol of X, it's so beautiful that it can receive in every side essentially. It's a beautiful picture of vulnerability. Men though have this y chromosome that have to do. And I believe when men heal, the world heals. This was, I was gonna give a second TEDx talk.

Lucas Mack: Um, but it got canceled during covid. But it was the premise that if men heal, I believe the world heals. And where men can heal is they have this y And what does the why symbolize? It symbolizes the vulnerability, the feminine and the masculine. And when we are hurt as children, and this goes for women too, it's not, it's this is symbolic, but when we are hurt as children, we close off our vulnerability. We close off our feminine side. We learn early on that is not safe to receive. So knowing that it's not safe to receive, all we try to do is take, take, take, take, consume, consume. And we call this the toxic masculinity. Well, what is this? These are just human beings. I don't like labels because labels demean them as a human. They have a story, they have a past, they have been hurt.

Lucas Mack: So instead of like, we're looking at the behavior, the output, the fruit of the tree, let's look at where did this root originate from? And help people understand that when you finally feel safe enough to face that which hurt you most and bring back this vulnerability, then you can receive love again. And until you learn how to receive love, you cannot give love. And in Hebrew, the word for love is a hava, which means to give. However, what I've learned is the greatest act of love that we can give to each other is to receive another person's love. And what this world is lacking, for instance, is like when I open a door for someone, someone says, no, I got it. What that does, and I learned this at the emotional intelligence program, which was not religious at all, or not spiritual, it was just pure emotional experiential healing.

Lucas Mack: But they said that blocks love from transmuting to the next person because we're so conditioned not to receive love because we're all hurt. And I saw this is that when we, we only feel safe, there's this verse, Jesus says, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. And this is what I figured out in religion, especially in Christianity. But I figured out the, the , I feel like I figured it out. They use truth as the premise by which they believe people will experience freedom. But truth cannot exist without the presence of love. 'cause truth is like a groundhog. And it will look, you know, the old story, the ground S see it shadow, if it senses judgment in any form, in any way, it will burrow down deeper. So people, you know, we go to these, how you doing? Oh fine.

Lucas Mack: Or we just keep these platitude things deep down. The truth within us is starving for light, starving for oxygen, starving to breathe. And until we can create these spaces where we are holding space and saying, I don't care what has happened to you. Doesn't matter how dirty, ugly, I promise I've experienced some of the dirtiest and ugliest. And I don't really, this is a hard thing for people also to hear. 'cause this is what I believe, the movement that I'm here for. It's also, I don't care what you've done. If you are willing, if you are willing, I'll hold space for you when we can heal. Because every hurt person is just a hurt person that's been hurt by another person. And it's this generational cycle is gonna continue until we say, I, I say the purest form of accountability is saying, the pain stops with me.

Lucas Mack: We have to be the one that draws the line in the sand and not, and, and it's been hard for my children, it's easier now. But when I started going through this healing journey of like, yeah, I want to yell, yeah, I want to explode, because that's the model, that's the imprint. I saw the explosion. I know the explosion. I know what that fear-based control mechanism is. Bring it back in. And then I have to go, what is this? Is this mine? Would I choose this? Had I had a blank slate and said, you can choose kindness. And what I teach, I'm a big proponent of not striking children and people call it spanking, but I say, what word did that epi homology come from? That came from striking a horse to run faster? That's the origin of that, that word. And so we've allowed abusers to change the narrative.

Lucas Mack: Again, we accept the narrative and then we treat the most innocent among us in, you know, certain ways, and this is not to judge anyone, but I say, well, does your child wanna be hit? Or does your child wanna be held? Does your child wanna be screamed at? Or does your child wanna be asked what's going on with you? You know this, like, of course your child wants to be held, of course your child wants to be asked what's going on? And um, and I don't wanna get too preachy, but this is where I've been able to figure out these. I've always looked at why, like why is, why I've looked at myself as a case study. I find it fascinating that I was sexually abused and under like, that tar that I felt was specifically about that happening to me. And it felt like tar. And I couldn't, I couldn't get it off me. To now being able to share these stories and say, okay, we're actually the heroes of this realm because we've gone through the worst of the worst. And so I say in my Ted talk, I believe those who have gone through the worst of the worst can bring forth the best, the best in in humanity. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: So because we're nearing our time today, and I I hope we'll have another time together because I just really think you've lived an amazingly, um, um, courageous and brave and, and heartbreaking life, then turned it into love and, um, kindness and healing. What would you like to leave our listeners with? And people I'm sure like riveted to listening to your story, you or are wonderful storyteller. And, um, even though it's been wide ranging and we've gone in different directions, um, or you've gone in different directions, it's all about love and, and accepting your past and accepting the people who are listening to you. And what, what are some things that people can walk away and think more about? Would you like to meet people with?

Lucas Mack: Um, if we think of our heart like a balloon, I happen to have excuse my daughter's second birthday today.

Dr. Robin Stern: Happy birthday milli. Yeah,

Lucas Mack: Happy milli, happy birthday. We have tons of balloons. I'm looking at a pink balloon outta my office. But if we think of a, our hearts as a balloon before air gets inserted into it, it's still a balloon. It's just an uninflated balloon. It's a latex without air inside of it. And love what? Taking a, taking a very deep breath and filling ourselves with this life force and allowing love to be the natural mode by which we inhale constantly. It fills our heart and expands our heart. So as children, children are the most loving, amazing, beautiful, innocent, wondrous, imaginative, creative, pure innocent beings on this, in this realm. And their hearts are full with this love. They come in, it's like they take their first breath and the heart expands. So if we think of our hearts as this balloon, when trauma comes, it squeezes the balloon, squeezes the balloon. And sometimes that trauma is so constant that when you let go the balloons adapted and let air out, where it never is fully as inflated as it was before the trauma.

Lucas Mack: And sadly, when we look at balloons, like what, why are balloons, birthdays? Because when they're floating the air, it's very uplifting and celebratory and feels fun. But when a balloon goes to the ground, it's, there's like, I don't wanna say alation. There's, there's something where're like, no, that's disappointing that it's not what it once was. And what I want to share with everyone is it doesn't matter. I, I was molested, beaten and all these things, but someone else might not have been held. Someone else might have had the critical parent that it was never good enough. Someone else might have been abandoned and never had physical abuse. And they tell me, oh, I have, I have, you know, I came from a really good family. And I say, well, what were you lacking? You know, there's, there's always lack. 'cause we come in, these are our teachers, I believe.

Lucas Mack: Yes, these are our teachers. They're our teachers. And so it doesn't matter what we've experienced from the spectrum, our opportunity, I was gonna say our job, but really our opportunity is to face everything that hurt us and no longer minimize it. When we minimize it. I believe we're standing in the voice of the person who did it and we're giving, they did their best. Well, their best, pardon of my French sucked . I mean, I don't wanna hear you did your best. I experienced pain from your lack of love. And so I know everyone that I work with does this. They'll say, well, I came from a good, like, wait, did you get loved the way you need to get loved? So this concept of the balloon, when we can face it, we start to release these hands off the balloon. And then when we speak about it and talk about it without feeling shame or judgment or guilt or, or it was our fault, or what did we do to cause it?

Lucas Mack: Or any of this narrative, and just say, would an innocent person hurt an innocent child? No. And so when we can look at that and say, okay, now the hands are off the balloon. The balloon doesn't have as much love as a need. And that's when we can release it all. And I mean, scream it out. I talk about screaming, screaming going in. If you feel like you can't do it around people going into your closet and shoving a pillow up to your face as tight as you can and screaming until you have a sore throat. Scream it out, yell it out, cry it out, release it. We have to release the trauma inside of our bodies. The book, the Body Keeps the scores, one of the books that like set me free from understanding my own physical pains and trauma. We have to get the trauma out.

Lucas Mack: And then once we release it, then we can receive the love that is available. And that's when the balloon starts to fill up again. Because the lie, I really believe the lie, especially those of us who've been sexually abused, is that we're always gonna be dirty. Or even this concept of religion and this like virginity. And then, and then you lose your virgin. What is this narrative? I'm pure, I've always been pure, nothing's ever touched my soul. It will never touch my soul. It cannot touch my soul. And so when we know that we are actually pure divine, beautiful beings that experience these stories to learn the lessons to come back to this place, this is what I want everyone to realize, that the love that we're all seeking is available for us in this present moment for you, for me in this room. It doesn't have to come from anyone. It actually doesn't come from anyone. It is existent as oxygen is existent for us all.

Dr. Robin Stern: Lucas, this is such a beautiful way to, um, to pause for a minute before I ask you where people can find you and Mm-Hmm, because I think that all of our listeners, and I know for myself will never look at balloons the same way. .

Lucas Mack: I know. I don't. That's funny.

Dr. Robin Stern: And, and it will, like, I wanna fill my house with balloons now.

Lucas Mack: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Robin Stern: So thank you Millie, for having that . Yeah,

Lucas Mack: That's right.

Dr. Robin Stern: Room. Um, thank you so much for the gift of yourself and your story and healing and love today. Please tell people where they can find you, where they can know about your retreats and your coaching and know more about your journey. Thank you. And books.

Lucas Mack: Thank, thank you. Um, if you go to my website, lucas mack.com, um, you'll find more of my story. You'll see it's content. I have a ebook that I just wrote last that came out last month, um, that's free to download. Um, it's called Healing Your Soul. Um, I mean, yeah, healing your soul to find your Light. And what, and I talk more about this process and what it means and, and, um, I think soul is such a beautiful, when we remember that we're souls having this human experience, I, to me, helps me expand in this. And so the book, finding Your Soul, healing Your Soul to Find Your Light, um, retreats, um, will be on there. I have new dates coming up. Um, and we're gonna be traveling. I've had retreats in Texas and I had retreats in Seattle when we lived up there, but we're gonna be doing more across the country, so it's easier for, for people.

Lucas Mack: And I'm gonna be doing co-ed retreats as well. I have a, a friend, a facilitator that's female 'cause I've been doing just male men retreats. Um, so we'll be doing both. And, um, I'm rebranding my podcast. It's been the golden rule revolution 'cause I found it to be revolutionary to treat people the way you want to be treated. Um, and I've been doing that for seven years and I'm gonna come back, uh, relaunch in February with the Lucas Max Show. And it was the same, same links, but um, again, that was me kind of hiding behind a brand versus me stepping into, you know, I'm here world and I can talk freely about myself without needing some sort of filter.

Dr. Robin Stern: Stepping into the light.

Lucas Mack: Yeah. Stepping into the light. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you so much and, and thank you listeners for joining us today. Um, I know it's been incredibly meaningful and powerful and really appreciate your willingness to, to be so vulnerable and to share your story and give of yourself today. Thank you so much Lucas.

Lucas Mack: Thank you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.

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