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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I am thrilled to have with us today Kara amo, Dr. Kara Alaimo, who is going to tell us why we need to read her new book. And I'm gonna tell you I've started to read it and I'm three quarters of the way through it. And it is a page turner. By the time you listen to this, I will have finished it and already have recommended it to so many people. I heard Dr. amo speak at a conference maybe about a year ago or six months ago, and reached out immediately because I know that this work is incredibly important for everyone to hear. And it is called Over the influence Why social media is toxic for women and girls, and how we can take it back. I can't wait for you to start telling us about your book, so please go right ahead.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you so much for having me. Um, so my book Over the Influence, why Social Media is Toxic for Women and Girls and how we can Take It back, looks at how social media affects every single aspect of the lives of women and girls. And chapter by chapter, I really sort of follow the arc of a woman's life and look at how social media affects the teen years, how it affects dating and relationships, how it affects our careers, how it affects how we parent our kids. Um, and you know, it was a scary book to write. I interviewed women and girls across the country for their experiences, and I was absolutely horrified, uh, by what they told me. Um, I, people say that you write the books you need to read, and when I started writing, uh, this book, I was thinking about how I was going to handle my own daughter's use of social media.
Dr. Robin Stern: And having finished it, I recently went for a walk with my CNN opinion editor, and I told her that my biggest fear when I started writing this book was handling my daughter's use of social media. And she and I just had a really big laugh about how naive that was. Um, because having finished the book, my biggest fear, of course, is that my daughters will have to live in the world that social networks have wrought. Um, but I try to end on a positive note
Dr. Robin Stern: So, Kara, I so appreciate, um, your book and especially the what you can Do about It sections because people often feel so helpless, well, I can't help it, you know, like, this is what her friends are doing, or This is the world we're growing up in. Or she doesn't have any choices if she wants to be popular, if she wants to be friends with someone. But we, before we get into more of your content, 'cause I I wanna spend the entire time on it, um, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background that I know our listening audience would like to know how you came to write this book, besides that you needed to read it.
Dr. Robin Stern:
Dr. Robin Stern: And something in me just snapped and it gave me the idea for this book. I sat down and started writing and I really just didn't stop. Um, and you know, for me, what it symbolized was just the fact that social media has enabled the world to judge women more than ever before. And so we know, you know, going all the way back to Eve that, um, we live in a world in which women have never been judged, particularly charitably. Um, but I think social networks have made it so much worse, whether you're a woman in the public eye or not, um, because it provides these platforms where the masses feel entitled to comment on women's bodies and authenticity, police women, which is, you know, sort of dissecting their appearances and behavior to render a judgment on whether we're authentic or fake. Um, which of course is something that's just rarely done to men. Um, and I just, I needed to write this book at that moment.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for that. And how is your daughter today?
Dr. Robin Stern: So my daughters are still young, and of course they're thriving. Um, and it may sound silly to think that, you know, toddlers and preschoolers, um, are already at risk of social media. Um, but what I argue in the book is that when our kids are very young, it's incredibly important for us to start talking to the parents of their friends and collectively agree that we're not going to let them start using social media or getting phones until a particular age. I suggest age 16, which I know is ambitious. Um, but the problem is that once my daughter's friends all have phones, it's gonna be almost impossible for me to win that battle. Um, and so I think now is the time that I need to start worrying about these things. Um, I, my daughters were recently homesick with strep, and I had to record podcasts, of course, to promote this book.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, and so, uh, I had to do that while they were home. And afterwards I was explaining to them why I thought it was so important that I was talking about these issues. Um, and one of the things I had talked about on the podcast was consent. And so I said to my, you know, preschool aged daughter, if someone asks you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable, what do you think you should do? And she looked at me like, this was sort of the most simplistic question I'd ever asked her in her entire life. And she said, well, say no, of course. Um, you know, but the big question is, you know, when she enters puberty and as she gets older and becomes a teenager, will she still say that? Um, and so I think it's important for us to start thinking about these things when our kids are young to plant these values, to plant these seeds so that they have that to fall back on, um, when they almost certainly face very, very challenging situations when they finally do join social networks.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I mean, I, I thank you so much for, for your background and, um, I'm your daughters were lucky to have you as their mommy. Uh, so I, uh, think a lot about what it means to be judging each other, um, as a therapist, as an expert in social emotional learning, emotional intelligence. And as somebody who studies gaslighting, um, what does it mean to live in a world where, as you say, it's an invitation to have people judge you the minute you are online? That's just the way it's set up because people give likes and they, they post and they comment and, and, um, there is, uh, an unwritten invitation to be sexy and hot online. Can you talk a little bit about where that comes from? Because of course, if you, um, are not doing that, then you're not going to be vulnerable to people picking apart your body in that way. They'll just pick it apart in another way. But, um, like your stockings, like Joe Biden
Dr. Robin Stern: So I think we live in a society that has always done this. Um, part of it is now the incentives that women and girls face online. So I write in my book that one of the first things teen girls realize when they join social media is that one of the easiest ways to rack up likes and get to get attention on social media is to make themselves look hot. And so now girls are sexualizing themselves at shockingly young ages, and this is so terrible for their mental health. Um, and of course, women face the same pressures themselves. I actually interviewed a plastic surgeon for this book, um, and thought it was fascinating that plastic surgery really took off, um, since the year 2000, of course, when apps, um, became more prevalent in our lives. But in particular during the pandemic, when we were all confronted with our faces, um, online all the time.
Dr. Robin Stern: And plastic surgeons call this the zoom boom, um, because of the massive increase in facelifts and body procedures during this time. Um, but anyway, this plastic surgeon told me, you know, before these apps landed in our lives, and I'm old enough to remember this, um, you didn't see pictures of yourself all the time. So you had your picture taken when you went to a wedding or you went to a birthday party. Um, but now we're all constantly confronted with images of ourselves online. Um, and that's really causing so much body dissatisfaction in women. Um, but it's also of course, you know, inviting the world to judge us for our bodies. And I worry about this in context, like for instance, job applications. Um, we know that employers Google us when we apply for jobs, um, and research shows. There is one study in particular that showed that, you know, prospective employers judge men for what they write on their social platforms and judge women of course for how we look.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, but it's not just our appearances, right? So, um, social networks have provided forums for people to judge women on absolutely everything. Um, and I think the thing about being a woman in, in our society is there's this great quote in Rebecca Solnit's memoir. Um, she writes that, you know, as women, we live in what she says is a perpetual state of wrongness. Uh, and I think that's so true. I use that phrase in the title of one of my chapters because it feels like no matter what women do in our society, they're somehow wrong. So if you stay single, um, you become an old maid. And of course there's no term in the English language that would apply to a man in that situation. If you, uh, do get married and have kids, um, you're either kind of boring and a drain on society for being a stay at home mom.
Dr. Robin Stern: Or if you try to work, you're not fully committed to your job or your kids. Um, you know, women are shamed for their sexuality, men are celebrated for their sexuality. I could go on and on, but I don't need to. Right? Um, and now on social media, of course people can share these views at mass scale. And then the last thing is that on social networks, people now have monetary incentives to shame women. So if someone's walking in the park and sees a mom having a meltdown on the playground, they can secretly record video of it and sell it to a company that buys the rights to clips that are primed to go viral. Um, because these companies, of course then make money when people click on them. Um, and you know, we know that women are particular targets for this kind of shaming simply because we live in this state of wrongness. So it's really disturbing.
Dr. Robin Stern: So when I hear you talk about this, first of all, it is so disturbing. Um, I can't help but think about gaslighting, right? And how women are living In some reality that actually is not true, but we're all buying into it because someone, the world, um, somebody more important than we, somebody with a lot of power or just our culture in general, is telling us what we are supposed to do or not do, or who we are. And it may be completely different than how we actually feel about ourselves on the inside, and yet we're called upon because of the world we're living in to second guess ourselves all the time. So I wonder, since you said yes to coming on the Gaslight Effect podcast, will you talk a little bit about that, please?
Dr. Robin Stern: I think that's exactly right. Um, I think women and girls in our society are often left feeling like it's us rather than society, um, when society holds us to totally unrealistic and very ugly standards. So one of the things I write about in my book is, uh, Naomi Wolf's book, the Beauty Myth, um, such a great book, which she wrote of course, before she became a conspiracy theorist. But you know what? She
Dr. Robin Stern: And you know this by the way, that Naomi wrote the Forward to my Gaslight Effect book.
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, how amazing.
Dr. Robin Stern: I board together of a woman's organization, and, um, she was completely supportive of my writing gaslighting. So sorry to derail us, but tell us, tell tell us more.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, it makes perfect sense, of course, because what Naomi writes about in the beauty myth is the fact that this idea that a woman's worth is based on her appearance, um, is, you know, um, a myth that was invented to control us, right? Um, and so before the Industrial Revolution, it's not how women were perceived at all. And then during the Industrial Revolution, men went to work outside the home. People needed, you know, women needed to be occupied. Um, and so the idea was that women could focus on our appearances. Um, but now, you know, um, all of this focus that our society puts on how women look, um, is deliberately designed to hold us back. Make no mistake. Um, so Hillary Clinton writes in her memoir about the fact that she spent 600 hours during the 2016 presidential campaign getting her hair and makeup done, and, you know, that's all times she wasn't out on the campaign trail. Um, potentially, you know, earning the, um, electoral vote
Dr. Robin Stern: It's all our fault. Exactly. And, and it's not just about our, uh, the consequences are not just in terms of what we do or don't do to beautify ourselves. I mean, our hearts are hurting, right? And so, um, our young girls are growing up feeling less than and not adequate. Um, and I I, I love the way you just give it so much space in the book that this, this conversation, it's been going on for a long time, but so much worse right now. And, um, I wonder if you could talk about the influence of the pandemic and, and how you see that impacting your thesis.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, so the thing about the pandemic is we just all spent so much more time on social networks, and I think that that's particularly damaging for teen girls. Um, we know that teen girls have a harder time than teen boys just because relationships and appearances are more central to their lives than they are to the lives of boys. Um, but I think, you know, social networks are designed to basically make us feel inferior in many ways. So we go online and we see the filtered, glamorized versions of everyone's lives. Um, one of the things I call for in my book is for tech companies to signal to us when photos have been manipulated, um, which would serve as a really powerful reminder that the images we're seeing so often aren't real. Um, but in particular, if you're a teen girl, you know, your brain is still developing. It might not be so clear to you that, um, other people's lives are not being well represented on these platforms. Um, there's so many feelings of social exclusion that come with them. So many kids talk about using Snapchat where you can follow the location of your friends in real time and seeing that their friends got together without them and feeling just horribly left out and excluded. Um, and I
Dr. Robin Stern: Love your point in the book that it's okay not to know where your friends are every minute. Like who says that that's the way the world's supposed to be, and yet their world is set up such that they can see where everybody is at any minute and, um, they end up feeling bad about it. So you wouldn't feel bad if it was the norm that, Hey, I don't know where people went after school today, or I don't know, or, so what if they didn't invite me? Am I, do I have to go to every single gathering?
Dr. Robin Stern: Know Robin? It's incredibly creepy, um, that people basically learn to stalk their friends at such young ages, but you're exactly right, they grow up in a world where that seems to be the norm. And so I think it's incredibly important for us to teach our kids, um, that in fact that's quite disturbing and unnecessary.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So I wanna talk a little bit about Catfish because I just can't wait to tell my own story. So
Dr. Robin Stern: Tell me.
Dr. Robin Stern: So I was, um, I got married happily before the pan, right before the pandemic, but in the period of time before then, uh, when I was single, I was, had my photos done, and then I went online and I, uh, got this message from someone who really sounded like a woman could have written the message, probably did now that I think about it. But, um, but it was so emotionally based, so connected, so poetic, so, um, beautiful. And he said, I really, I really wanna meet you. You sound so wonderful. Anyway, the conversation went on and on, and my son, who is now 37, almost at the time, maybe it was 10 years ago, he said, mom, like, you're like talking to this guy and like, he's never wanting to meet you. Like, something's up with this. And so I said to him, you know, I really wanna meet you and let's not continue this.
Dr. Robin Stern: And here I am an expert in social and learning, right? And checking my feelings and managing my expectations. But the long story short was that, um, he, uh, why am I telling, I'm telling this story for a reason, but ultimately he started sending me dozens of roses and, and five, oh my goodness time. And my son said, this is definitely a scam. And, um, and he said, just don't ever give him your address. And I had already done it because I didn't realize very, it was not very smart of me actually. But I didn't realize that, uh, that was probably a dangerous thing to do. And in the end, he said, I'm, you know, I can't wait to meet you, but I suddenly have to take a business trip. And then he calls me the next day, he said, I'm on my business trip and I just forgot my camera, and you go to, um, BNH this camera store in New York and get me a camera and I'll pay you back the next time I see you.
Dr. Robin Stern: And like, in that moment, of course, I knew this is ridiculous,
Dr. Robin Stern: Or even worse, basically kidnapped and held as slaves. Um, and so this is not just one creepy guy in his basement, right? Um, catfishing is a huge global enterprise run by cyber criminals. Um, and there was a fascinating ProPublica report recently that talked about how oftentimes it's men in China who are lured to places like Cambodia with the promise of a really well paying job. And then when they get there, they're basically held as slaves and forced to catfish women online and subject to things like beatings if they refuse. Um, so it's pretty harrowing for the victims on both sides. Um, but you know, one of the things that surprised me was I rarely spoke to a woman about her dating experiences who hadn't been catfished. It seems like the norm and a lot of the women I was speaking to were, you know, um, a woman I used to work with who was one of the most senior women in the field of international diplomacy.
Dr. Robin Stern: I mean, brilliant, brilliant women just like you who were falling for this. And I think, you know, there's this stereotype of women who are dating as emotionally needy and desperate to be in relationships. And so, you know, the people who do this or who run these operations see women as easy victims as emotionally vulnerable. And it's really scary. And, you know, and women who I interviewed for the book told me they stopped using dating apps, uh, for two reasons. One is that they didn't think the people they were matching with were real. Um, and two, uh, that when they did match with people who seemed, uh, to be using their real identities, um, they were treated terribly and they were sick of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Well, so what can we do about this? Tell us when you're like, at the end of every chapter, there is, um, there are compelling things that people can do and, and call to action to talk to the companies making these technologies and to talk to your friends to band together. But tell us some specific things. What can individuals do?
Dr. Robin Stern: Okay, so first of all, it's a huge myth that all single women wanna be in a relationship. Um,
Dr. Robin Stern: Listeners are applauding there,
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, and you know, the power to you if this is not what you're looking for, but I will offer some advice if you're trying to use a dating app to find a relationship if that's your goal. Um, I think the first thing is to know that dating apps are not the miraculous matchmaking machines that they often claim to be. So a lot of sites say, you know, if you just answer these personal questions, we'll match you with someone who's compatible. Uh, that flies in the face of decades of research, which tell us that unfortunately it's not possible to use people's qualities or characteristics in order to predict in advance whether or not they'll be compatible. So that's a huge myth. So what that means is if you're on a dating site, it's actually on you to filter through profiles, to read through tons of them and try to find the people you're looking for.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, but on top of that, we know that, you know, these apps are full of people who are not looking for relationships and maybe not even real. And I interviewed, um, one of my old college friends who went to work for one of the world's most elite consulting firms and was having a terrible time dating and finally decided she was gonna apply the same degree of savvy and strategy that she used in her career to these apps. Um, she's now happily married. Um, and basically, uh, what she did is she put on her profile, I'm looking for a relationship. If you're not looking for one, please don't contact me. Um, and she said she had to be afraid to scare people away. And she had to learn that when people didn't seem serious about meeting up like your catfish robin, or when, um, you know, people didn't seem serious about pursuing a relationship, um, she just deleted 'em and moved on.
Dr. Robin Stern: And you have to take this as a referendum on them and not on you and not take things personally. And so my friend Kate ended up going out with seven different guys who were all looking for relationships. Um, a lot of them, you know, she wasn't interested in or they weren't compatible, but the seventh one was named Ryan, and she married him last year. And the six previous dates, she said gave her hope that there were good people out there, that she could have positive experiences online, which is what allowed her to continue. So I just think it's so important for us to remind ourselves if you're using a dating app, you know, don't take things personally and just aggressively filter,
Dr. Robin Stern: Aggressively filter and say who you are and what you're looking for, as honestly as you can. Because then people will either respond and as you're saying, you get to filter them out if they're not the people who, who you want to be dating. And I also agree, and you say it in your book also, it's a numbers game. You just said it again here. Um, it's a numbers game. So just keep going. If you really want, uh, a relationship, you will find one. I found my husband online and I was very clear, especially after that catfishing situation, that I was not going to go out with anyone who, um, who sounded in the least bit strange to me in some way. Not strange as in creative and interesting, but strange, strange and
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's the other part of this is protecting your safety.
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: And there's plenty of sex offenders using dating apps. We know that. Um, and so that's the last piece of this, right? It is only meeting people in public places, telling people where you're going, telling the person you're meeting, that you told people where you're going. Um, not being alone with someone until you've really come to establish trust, trying to meet their friends and family or colleagues to confirm that they are who they say they are. Um, it may sound like overkill, but this is, you know, really needed to protect our safety.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And when, so I'm thank you for that. And just shifting gears, I'm sure you're speaking to parent groups and we'll be speaking to even more parent groups. What do you say to the parents who want, whose kids want to be online all, all day long or all night long, probably all day they're in school
Dr. Robin Stern: Okay, so a few things. Um, first of all, make sure your kids have a healthy mix of offline activities, because if your kid is at basketball playing in a game, they can't possibly be online at that moment. Um, I think that there is a big myth that kids want to constantly be online, but the researcher Dana Boyd actually interviewed American teenagers. And what they told her is they would much rather get together with their friends in person. And the reason they didn't is often because their parents didn't let them. Uh, so one of the things I worn in my book is that you may think that your kid is safer at home, but they could be upstairs in their bedroom connecting with a predator on TikTok. Um, and that leaves them, of course, in a far more dangerous situation than if you just let them go to the local mall, right?
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, so it's important to keep that in mind. Another thing that I think is a great idea is looking at content with your kids. One thing I learned when I was writing this book is, um, it so depends on how kids use social media. Social media can be a place, um, that is deadly for kids. One of the people I interviewed for my book is a woman who says that as a teenager she got her eating disorder on Instagram and she posted a picture of herself doing a handstand 'cause she was into yoga. It got picked up by a fit inspiration page, which is a fit fitness inspiration page. Um, and she fell down this rabbit hole of toxic content. Um, but I've also seen how social media can be a lifeline for kids. Um, perhaps for a kid who's a minority in their physical community, but then finds their people online.
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, social networks can be places where kids develop and explore interests that turn into careers or get involved in really important movements for social justice. Um, so I say to parents, ask your kid to pull out TikTok and look at it together and search for content that is healthy and in line with their interests or their hobbies. Um, and the really cool thing about doing that is that algorithms are basically programmed to show people more of what they think they like. And so if you watch this content with your kid than when you're not around, your kid will see more content like that or have more content like that promoted to them. Um, so that's another thing. And then it's just developing flexible rules with your kids, having conversations with your kids about what the ground rules are gonna be. And I really think that kids should have a lot of input because they'll probably have some really smart ideas.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, and I'm big on being just generous with people in general throughout this book. Um, but you know, when I think about the rules about using social media, I think about all the exceptions, right? So of course you're not gonna want your kid to use social media when they need to do their homework. One of the worst things is for a kid to have, you know, receive 200 notifications doesn't allow them to concentrate on their homework, but what if they need to look something up on the internet in order to write that paper? Um, or you're not gonna want your kids to be using social media at the dinner table. But, you know, my husband is often at work at dinnertime, and so I use FaceTime and we just FaceTime him in and have a conversation with him, and that's really beautiful. So I think we have to be flexible. Exceptions are called for, and we have to be in conversation with our kids about these things.
Dr. Robin Stern: So important. Thank you for that. Um, what you were saying just sparked a another question. Um, I can't think of it, but, um, but I do wanna ask you this as well. So how, what's your advice for, uh, girls to not make it their fault and not walk away from, uh, being online feeling not just envious, but terrible about themselves and like, they'll never measure up and they can't possibly ever get a guy or, um, have a, a life because they don't have a body like the social influencer? That's what I was gonna ask you about the social influencer they're following. So how do you, how do you help, um, moms and girls themselves, but moms help their kids talk about that with them?
Dr. Robin Stern: So I think it's incredibly important to talk to our girls in particular when they're very young about how we should never judge anyone including, but especially ourselves for our appearances. Um, Kate Mann, who's I, in my opinion, one of the most important feminists alive, um, is a philosopher at Cornell University, and she has a new book out called Unshrinking. And there's this moment where she talks about what she did with her daughter, and she took out her phone, opened Instagram, her daughter was very young and showed her pictures of diverse people, um, people of all different races and sizes and levels of ability. And rather than commenting on how these people looked, she commented on the fact that she was really glad that they were here in the world with us. And I thought that that was just so beautiful. And this is the lesson I wanna teach my daughters when they're young.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, and as I said before, they're gonna need reminding as they go through puberty of these things, right? As their confidence plummets and they face all sorts of challenges. But I think you instill those values really early and you show girls how to model them. Um, I'm always telling, you know, my daughters that, my brother, my youngest brother was the kid at high school who went over to kids who didn't have a lot of friends and invited them to join him at the cool kids table at lunchtime. And I just always tell my daughters, that's who I want them to be. Um, and that's what we have to teach them.
Dr. Robin Stern: I always talk to my kids or did when they were young. Um, uh, about what, what do families talk about when they get in the car after they've visited the rest of their family? Oh
Dr. Robin Stern: Boy.
Dr. Robin Stern: Have, um, one of, one of our constant conversations is the difference between getting in the car and say, did you see what she was wearing today? Like, you know, is isn't she a little too heavy to wear that? Or like, come on, like, what is his hair looking like? Like, didn't he get, he could have gotten a haircut or, um, my god, things like that. And I was very deliberate. I mean, I obviously made some mistakes as my kids were, were here. They would definitely tell you all about them, but I was very deliberate about having conversations that like your friend who, like the person you were just talking about Kate is, was Kate. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, we're about, like, it was so wonderful to see our cousins so happy together. Um, I love connecting with so and so, um, I can't wait till we go to their house and, and have a meal together. It was just nice to spend that time together. And so like, what are, what is your family focusing on when they're talking about other people?
Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, exactly. And let me just say it is so hard because I have this urge as a mother, you know, my, uh, young daughter will get dressed in the morning and I wanna say, you look great. She's worked so hard to make herself presentable for preschool. Um, but the point is that people's appearances are the least interesting and relevant thing about them. And so I think it takes a lot of work, uh, for us as parents to teach these lessons. Um, but I think you have to start young and just do your best and try every day, right? To think about how you frame conversations and to avoid, you know, suggesting that, um, it's even appropriate or relevant, um, to judge people based on how they look
Dr. Robin Stern: Completely agree. And, and speaking of every day, important to show your kids and model for your kids every day that there can be advantages to having an online world and that they can go after those advantages and shield themselves from ways in which the online world is, um, victimizing them and also just alienating them. So I, I really like that you talked about the good things that happen with technology.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I think that's so important, Robin, because so many people will tell, say a woman who's being trolled online, we'll just stop using social media if it's not a safe space or if it's not a good place. And I completely reject that because as you just said, social media is a place where we can empower ourselves. It's a place where you can connect with prospective employers or you can, um, build a following and position yourself as a thought leader in your field. Um, there's so many different ways that women can empower ourselves online. And so I just think it's totally unacceptable to say these places are toxic, don't use them. Um, and what I really call on women to do in my book, I want my book to be a rallying cry for us to rethink the ways we use social media. Stop consuming content that doesn't make you feel good about yourself.
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, and I think it's important for us all to actively share content about issues that affect our lives. I think it's important for us to remember that women who share their professional expertise on social media often end up with fewer followers, fewer reposts and fewer resulting opportunities than men in their fields. But we can change this. And so I just call on all of us to start following more women on social media. I actually put a list on my website of suggested feminists to follow. Um, my website is kara amo.com and of course they're just the tip of the iceberg. But the point is that we need to make a conscious effort to follow an amplify posts by other women. Um, and then the last thing is, I think we need to think carefully about what we do when we witness sexism and misogyny online.
Dr. Robin Stern: So when we see people say judging women unfairly as we've been discussing, um, a lot of people can be tempted to clap back to trolls, right? And to respond to them and tell them why they're wrong on social media. I think that that's generally a bad idea because if you engage with a post, it sends a signal to social networks, algorithms that people like it and want to see more of it. Um, so I suggest being silent on those platforms, but if you know the person offline, having a respectful offline conversation about why you're troubled by their content. Um, and then the last thing is I think it's important for us to report horrible posts to social networks. Um, social networks are notorious for either not responding to these reports or for responding and saying, no, we think that rape threat threat that you received is just fine, right? Um, but I think that if we all started filing more of these reports, um, it would send a powerful signal to social networks about our discontent with them and could cause them to change some of their practices. So it's on us as women to change what we do on social media to empower ourselves and other women.
Dr. Robin Stern: I completely agree, and I can't thank you enough for spending this time with me and with our listening audience. It was really meaningful and important conversation. And where can people find you over the influence,
Dr. Robin Stern: Over the influence, why social media is toxic for women and girls, and how we can take it back is out now. It was just published. Um, you can find it anywhere. Books are sold on Amazon and elsewhere. Um, and you can find me@karaamo.com. You can find my Facebook author page or you can find me on Instagram and X
Dr. Robin Stern: And I know we'll be having another conversation and I look forward to that time. Um, I'd love that. Thank you so much for spending time with me and with the Gaslight Effect podcast.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you, Robin.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Suzan Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.