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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really thrilled today to have my colleague, Emily Paulson with me and new colleague and someone who I, Emily, I can't wait to dive into our conversation, but first, please tell our listeners what you've been up to about your books and the, um, sober mom squad and just who you are.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, so I'll try and keep it brief. Um, so I, I am a sober woman. Um, I got sober over seven years ago, and part of my recovery process was reading, was writing. And when I was almost three years sober, I decided to turn some of that writing into a book, because books had been so important to me and helpful to me. I thought one more story out there would be great for other women. My book came out and then Covid happened, and all of a sudden everyone was shuttered inside, and recovery meetings were not really online yet. And there was this, you know, growing trend of, you know, mommy wine culture and your home with your kids, and you need a drink. And I found that a lot of women were struggling. And so I started hosting a meeting every Wednesday that turned into what is now the sober mom squad four years later. And it's just a community of moms who are sober, sober, curious, long-term sobriety, doesn't matter, just a safe space to escape the mommy wine culture. And also, during that process of my recovery, I left a multi-level marketing company. And my next book then was about my escape from that. And so that's who I am in a nutshell.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you very much. Quite accomplished and so important and, uh, such a gift you're giving to the world, not only to women and, uh, women who want to stay sober, get sober, think about being sober, but also, uh, a world, I don't know a lot about multi-level marketing, and so I, uh, but it seems like escape and gaslighting have, um, something to say to each other. And so I'm wondering if that's why you said yes to coming on the Gaslight Effect podcast, that there is gaslighting involved in both the worlds that you have been so intimately involved with.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Absolutely. I would say that that is one thing that kept me drinking and also kept me stuck in my multi-level marketing company, is when you express that something is wrong. Like, I'm questioning this thing, but you're surrounded by people telling you, no, it's okay. It's okay, it's okay. You start to feel like you're going crazy. Like this can't be, you know, I, I can't believe what I'm feeling. Um, you know, 'cause society, people around me, I can't trust what I'm thinking. Um, so I gaslighting is a huge part of why people get into, you know, MLMs and just structures that don't help them and why they don't leave.
Dr. Robin Stern: So fascinating. So tell our audience, um, and educate me, please, what is a multi-level marketing, um, uh, world where you get stuck and perhaps stuck in gaslighting?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, so multi-level marketing, everybody knows what they, what multi-level marketing companies are, even if they don't know. So like the Pampered Chef Beachbody, the, any company that you, you can't just buy a product from, you have to join as like an affiliate or a, you have to join a team. You join an actual somebody in the company who gets a cut of your earnings, and the majority of the money is made through recruiting other people. And so it's essentially a pyramid scheme with product. Um, and most people lose money, you know, they pay their join fee and then they never actually make a dime. Um, and they all function the same way. Um, and the gaslighting part of getting into one of these schemes is that, you know, it's all up to you. It's this meritocracy, and you're like, you can do it. It's all up to you.
Emily Lynn Paulson: You can be as successful as you want, which that sounds great, right? Oh, I can do whatever I want. I can make as much money as I want. But then guess what, when you don't, because most people don't make money, most people lose money, then you're blamed because, well, it was up to you and you didn't do it. So there's a lot of that messaging mixed in with multi-level marketing. There's a lot of coercive control. Um, basically you're, you're told that what you believe and what you see, um, is not true from, you know, the company's own income disclosures to, you know, and people on my team aren't making money, you're told, oh no, they just must not be working hard enough.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. Well, that's certainly gaslighting, gaslighting 1 0 1. Yeah.
Emily Lynn Paulson: So you might see a friend post, you know, oh, I, I just hit this promotion in my company. You know, I love my time freedom. They're, they're very aspirational. Um, it's very much selling the lifestyle, or I earned this bag with my company, contact me to learn more. Mostly it's the lifestyle financial claims. Sometimes it's the product like, oh, I use this supplement and it's really helped my gut health or whatever. Contact me for more info. So it's generally connections. It's people, you know, like, and trust. It's people you're friends with on social media. And that makes it, you know, even more predatory because then you're trusting this person to sell you a product or service that you know, maybe isn't that great or, uh, whatever. And their ultimate goal is to get you to actually join. So it may start with, you know, Hey Robin, do you wanna try this? Uh, you know, eye cream? And then it turns into, you know, the best way to get a discount on the product is by becoming a rep. And then all of a sudden it's the spiel to get you to join in.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so is there, along with the, um, the sales pitch is the, or is part of the sales pitch then that like, people get invited into a cult in this way, you know, there's a promise of greater what? Freedom and money and,
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yes. So every really, every recruiting story that you see in an MLM, it starts with some sob story, uh, and then some redemption. And it can be as small as like, oh, I, you know, I was so depressed after my baby was born, and then I lost the baby weight with these products. What a miracle. You know? And it's like the products and are, are the way to, you know, your, your greater self, but gosh, if you join the company, that's why I joined the company. It's always sold us like this life changing thing. Um, and, and just an attempt to, to get you again to join in. It's, it's really not about the products. It's about joining again, like the cults. And, and there are people who will be like, Hmm, cult, really, but you look at, there's so much behavioral control. There's information control. They're giving you, you know, scripts of things you can say and can't say. Um, you know, you're not an employee. You're a contractor who is not, you're not given a salary. You, you get money if you sell things or if people join you. But otherwise your work, your, your labor's completely unpaid. Um,
Dr. Robin Stern: So when you, what would be the occasion, for example, that you would then question the what was going on? And, uh, or people question it and then they are told, well, it it's like your fault.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah. I mean, it's from the get go, honestly, there's a lot of preempting I think that happens. Um, I mean, I remember the day I, I joined, I, I really, I met a friend out for wine. That was my, that was the reason I met up with this person. Uh, you know, it was like a night out. I was home with the kids. I'm like, yes, I'll, I'll come meet you for any reason. And it was a meeting about her, uh, company that she was a rep for, and my reservations were like, Ooh, I don't wanna be one of those people. 'cause I'd seen, I kind of had an understanding of multi-level marketing, but I just knew it, it felt like very spammy. Like, you're constantly posting on social media, you have to have home parties and all of that stuff. So I kind of had initial reservations, and anything you bring is like, oh, no, don't worry about that because X, y, and Z there's some scripted, canned responses to everything.
Dr. Robin Stern: And then you, it's explained away.
Emily Lynn Paulson: It's explained away. Yeah. And, and anything is explained away even before you experience it. So for example, you, you are given a stack of scripts to cold message your friends on social media, for example. And, you know, your first intuition is like, Ooh, I don't wanna do that. That feels, that doesn't feel good. Well, they're telling you, you know what? This is gonna feel weird, but this is how you push through your comfort zone. So then when you do have that intuitive feeling that this is icky, you're like, oh, but they told me it would be like that.
Dr. Robin Stern: Right? And then I'm gonna get the goodies at the end because I'll be more comfortable with being uncomfortable and I'll, right? Yeah,
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, yeah. And just a lot of platitudes of, you know, don't you only fail if you quit, you know, keep going because success is on the other side of that next phone call. It's just like you keep pushing and all the while you're spending, because you're, again, you pay to be in these companies, you pay to, you know, you purchase the products yourself, and so your upline is incentivized financially to keep you in as long as possible and to get you to recruit more people. And so, and, and yet they're a, they're a friend that you trust. And so there's, there's that part of it that I think that gaslighting being told by a stranger is one thing that you're wrong or you're, you know, don't believe what you're thinking, but to be told by a friend makes you really think, okay, I must just, I must be, you know, off base here.
Dr. Robin Stern: And to be told by your friend that everybody else is feeling like them, not like you. Yeah. Uh, further reinforces that.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah. And even when you see around you, you know, because I, I was one of the people who I did very well. I, I followed all the steps and I made money, and I recruited people, and I could see that the people who I was bringing in were not having the same success. And what I was told the whole time is, well, they must not be doing everything right. They must not be sending enough messages. They must be losing belief. They, and I believed that because I thought, well, that's true. It worked for me, so why wouldn't it work for them ignoring what I'm seeing in front of me? It's like, clearly it's not, so the results weren't matching what I was being told. And, and that's really hard because, you know, you're, again, you want the best for these people, but you're also told that it's up to them. And that's a really hard thing to navigate, even when you see the results right in front of you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So how, how did you wake up and decide, wait a minute, this not only does doesn't feel good, but it actually isn't
Emily Lynn Paulson: Good. Yeah. So for me, it was really getting sober. That was a huge part of my awakening, because I couldn't drink and then send a bunch of messages,
Dr. Robin Stern: So how is it that you were able to make money and other people were not? Like, how did, how did you explain that without saying, well, like, I am doing the things that I'm supposed to do, and clearly they're not. So how did you Yeah. Tell us.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, so multi-level marketing companies, they get saturated very easily because, you know, you can, anyone can join. There's no interview process, there's no like, market research done on, uh, you know, how many reps are in an area. And I just so happened to join this company pretty early on. So that was one thing. Um, there were not a lot of people in my particular location where I lived, who knew about the company. So that was another thing. And I also, you know, I was a spouse to someone who had a job. Like I wasn't the breadwinner. And so I had expendable income, and I had a network of people with expendable income. So to have any level of success, you have to have money, you have to have a network of people with money, and it has to not already be very saturated. And even with all those components, your odds are still like, worse than playing roulette.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Um, but it just, it happened to work for me. And so of course, I assumed since I was told, do these things and you'll succeed. And I did those things and succeeded that it was because of my own effort and not because of those extraneous things. Right. Um, and, and then finally, you know, over years of seeing that these same people who, you know, have, they have expendable income, they have a network. Well, I've already tapped into their network, their networks already buying products from me or, or joining other companies or whatever. Um, that I couldn't ignore it when I, once I really allowed myself to see it and, and allowed myself to see that people were working, it wasn't because of their hard work. It was just a flaw in the system.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so, how did you get out? What did you say to yourself? What steps did you take? What can you share with our listeners so they know how to do it in their lives?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah. I slowly backed away. Honestly, I, I started feeling like it wasn't right. I didn't feel like it was in alignment with who I was, and yet I was still making an income. And so I had to figure out, okay, how do I cut this off? Um, and so I slowly, I, you know, I, I talked to the people who had brought into the company and said, you know, I don't feel great about this anymore. I'm not gonna be posting on social media anymore. I'm not gonna be selling this anymore. Um, just so you know. And so they were understanding and, and everything. Um, and I kind of stayed that way for a while and just kind of collected the check until it was drying up. And then finally it was during COVID when I was completely separated from the organization, you know, I was really, everyone was really cut off. And I, it gave me that extra level of clarity that I just, I could not be associated anymore, like no matter how much money I was making. And that's when I, I fully terminated my account and, and left.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so do you feel like they were intentionally, um, that it wasn't that their marketing strategy was, uh, accidentally gaslighting people that they intentionally were out to co-opt your reality and make it align with theirs?
Emily Lynn Paulson: A hundred percent, yes. And you know, there's a reason why, you know, I've interviewed women from multiple MLMs who have left or who are still in, and the language is very similar. Um, it, it's, it's built into the script. It's what keeps people in, because there's, you know, if you have enough belief, the logic will lose. And so they keep that belief going that, no, don't, you know, don't worry about your paycheck, don't worry about what you're spending. Uh, you know, and all these platitudes, like, you know, you gotta spend money to make money, and you've gotta be a product of the products, things that keep you purchasing. They don't tell you to do a profit loss statement. Um, just basic business things, um, because it doesn't fit their model. You know, they're, they're multimillion and billion dollar corporations that are in business and are very successful because so many women are spending money and not making any.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's fascinating. Yeah. And when you realized being sober that, um, and taking a pause, a forced pause like we all had to take during the pandemic, when you were away from the immediacy of the gaslighting, uh, were you able then to talk to friends who knew you outside of that network and say, you know, I'm struggling with this, what do you think? Mm-Hmm.
Emily Lynn Paulson:
Dr. Robin Stern: That sounds like the way cults talk about people. It is.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're a suppressive person, right? And, and so I talked to those people, like the friends who at first, you know, started muting my posts and not, you know, saying, don't talk to me about this anymore. And, and that helped. Like, it helped, it helped me see from their eyes what, what they were watching. And, and, you know, a lot of them described as like, it was watching you slowly get brainwashed over Facebook, you know, that I, I just got so sucked into this model, this, this business model, this, this world. It was, its, it wasn't just a job. It was a whole lifestyle. And that helps is, is fine. What do you
Dr. Robin Stern: Mean by whole lifestyle?
Emily Lynn Paulson: I mean, because it isn't just, it isn't just like a job. You go to at nine, you leave at five, you know, you may have some coworkers outside, it becomes your entire life. You, you have clothing that has the company name on it. You are on Zoom calls or text threads all of the time. And again, this is all by design. So you're constantly connected your whole friendship network, even if it's just proximity, it, it's all that company, and it, it, it really consumes you, it in a way that a normal job doesn't you, it it's like, this is my higher power, basically. This is like my salvation. This is my everything. And people stay because of that. And, and, and I think getting so roped in saying like, oh, well, gosh, I've already spent so much money, or I've already, you know, all my friendships are in here, or I've already wasted so much time. You know, it's that sunk cost that keeps you in. And again, very much like, very much like a cult. So, so for me, it was listening to people who I had formerly been told not to listen to and critically thinking.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Yeah. And so when you wrote, by the way, I just love the title of this book. Hey Hun, sell Sisterhood, supremacy and Other Li Lies. What was the, um, I've gotta write this book moment for you,
Emily Lynn Paulson: Because I, I really at first thought, you know, even when I was leaving, like, am I the only one who feels this way? You know, am I the only one who thinks this is gross? I I can't be the only one. And so I started talking about it more. I started reaching out to people who I knew who had left, just to see if my story was similar. And I found so many similarities. And I started listening to like, YouTube channels and going on Reddit and just seeing what I could find out there. And I found overwhelmingly that the stories were very similar. And I thought, you know, this, this just has to be, this has to be more out there. And, and I, I also felt that I had been so loud, you know, trying to sell this lifestyle, sell this, you know, this scheme that I wanted to be just as loud the other way to say, Hey, this is what now I've learned, and this is, I, I felt like I had to put it out there. I just, I felt almost like an amends in a way. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: And did you treat yourself with kindness while you were going through that? Or were you hard on yourself that you had allowed for this to, um, be a part of your life? Like, how did you relate to yourself?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, you know, I think being in recovery and having gone through, you know, the 12 steps and, and I, I very much knew the process of like, seeing my part in things and also giving myself grace for not knowing better at the time, because I really did, you know, nobody joins these things. Nobody joins any system thinking, I wanna go scam people, you know, they join 'cause they really think it's a great thing. I thought it was great. I thought all the people I brought in were gonna do really well. I really believed that. And so once I didn't, then, you know, the, it it just, I had to give myself grace for those choices and have compassion, but then do something about it. Like, okay, now I know these things and I know this isn't true, so now I have to quit. And, um, and you know, that, that has been, that's been the challenging thing. I think leaving and realizing there were a lot of people who, you know, it wasn't really friendship, you know, people who I'd gone on vacation with who when I left were like, well, I can't talk to you anymore because you aren't,
Dr. Robin Stern: And you a defector.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, I was a defector. Yeah. Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Robin Stern: And what's, what is the connection for you? I mean, it sounds, um, what, let me ask you, rather than making my own assumption, um, is there a, was there for you a similar process of giving up wine nights of wine and, what did you call them? Moms with wine,
Emily Lynn Paulson:
Dr. Robin Stern: Wine culture.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, absolutely. I think it, the, the thing I was seeking with alcohol and the thing I was seeking with this MLM were the same thing. It was a looking for an escape, looking for something outside of myself. Um, and avoiding like the work that I needed to do, you know, avoiding leaning into parenthood, avoiding treating my anxiety, uh, avoiding the things, it was an escape. Um, and so I really had to get clear on, okay, why, why do I seek out these things? You know, why do I get so invested in things and am I so black and white about things? Um, so it was a, it was a lot of kind of personal work,
Dr. Robin Stern: And, um, do you feel when you were having at home, having wine escaping that you were also gaslighting yourself at the time?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, because I, I, I think for a long time I really believed that it helped. Um, and I, you know, I would consider myself for a long time. I was high functioning and I, I could, I could do everything and maybe people from the outside wouldn't know how bad it was, but I knew, and you know, I would tell myself, you know, this hasn't happened yet. This hasn't happened yet. This hasn't happened yet. I'm fine. And then those things started happening, you know, my marriage was in trouble. Um, I got in, I got a DUI, you know, I got in trouble with the law. I started having health problems, all the things that I had said before, oh, those haven't happened yet, it's fine. And then at that point I'm like, well, shoot, I, I can't stop still. And, and that was, that was scary.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Um, and, and I had to get really honest with myself about who I was asking for advice. You know, asking the friends who drink more than you, if you have a drinking problem, is probably not who to go to. So
Dr. Robin Stern: And what role did your kids have in your getting sober?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, they were, you know, they were very young at the time, but my oldest was 11, and it was really, it was really the DUI, um, I had to get a breathalyzer in my car. And up to that point, I really thought my kids were shielded. Like, they didn't really know what was going on. They didn't know how bad it was. And it, he definitely knew what was going on. It was like, oh, well why do you, why do you have to get a breathalyzer and why, you know, why do you still drink if you got in trouble with the law? And why do people drink? And, and having to have those conversations and say like, you know, God, why, why am I drinking when I got in trouble with the law? Like, that's a huge red flag. You know, how is my 11-year-old like, more aware of this than I am? Um, it's been a huge part of our, our family just having open conversations about it where I, I don't think that would've happened otherwise.
Dr. Robin Stern: So still lining them. Mm-Hmm.
Emily Lynn Paulson:
Dr. Robin Stern: And so what do you think is the, the, uh, connector or the parallel track of, of both of these, uh, journeys that you have been on? Well, really you're a journey that has parallel tracks of getting, uh, getting into alcohol, getting sober, getting into MLM, getting sober. Um, what, what do you think is the connector for you?
Emily Lynn Paulson: I think there's a couple of things. I think not trusting your own intuition is a big one. And, you know, just from talking to lots of women, like, I know that that's not a just a me thing. I know that's a, that that's something that a lot of women do is, is not believing ourselves. Um, and believing that, that those intuitive thoughts when they come up. And I think any really negative system problem starts because there's a lack of support, right? That, like, I went to an MLM because there weren't other options. I was a stay at home mom. Childcare super expensive. There's no paid family leave. There's, you know, there's not options. And this to me, seemed like an option. You know, I went to alcohol because, uh, you know, it, it's given as a solution, right? It's given, you know, it's five o'clock somewhere, like all the, all those little cliches. That's what's offered as, as help. Um, yeah. So I think it's just the lack of other choices.
Dr. Robin Stern: But how wonderful then that you found a community with sober mom squad that, uh, is so meaningful and has purpose and, and, um, power for so many women around the world. And, um, to replace your community that was just basically built from social media.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm.
Emily Lynn Paulson: You know, I don't know if there was an exact time. It was just, I, I kept having meetings every week and more and more people showed up, and then I just kind of, I, I, I added things as people asked for things like, Hey, can we have more meetings? Sure. So, like, you know, put together some volunteers to have more meetings and can we have like a platform where we can chat and exchange numbers? Sure. So it's sort of just been created by what women have asked for, just, you know, so it's, it's a kind of a one-stop shop, really. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so can, what would you say are the, some of the highlights of your book?
Emily Lynn Paulson: So I think the people who are like afraid to read it are the people who see supremacy on the cover,
Emily Lynn Paulson: Um, and, and so it's not, it's not to call out anybody's specific behavior, but just is really as just informed consent I think is so important. And that's what I did not have going into it, is, you know, I believed what I was told by my friend and I joined, I did the things, but I didn't really know what I was getting into. And so that just the informed consent piece of it, of where MLMs came from, you know, what the real statistics are, why people get in, why people fail, why people lose money, and you know, how they really do mimic cults in a lot of ways. Um, yeah. And I kind of take along, take you along the ride of how I got in, how I got out, and some of the wild and crazy things that happened during that time.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah. So there is, I don't know if you've ever heard of like the free car. So in multi-level marketing, there's always a car program. And you see, you'll be like, oh, I earned the free car. I got the free car, I got free, got the free car. Well, the car isn't free. Um, you have to purchase or lease the car, and then the company gives you money. It's like a whole ruse, but it looks really good. So the day that I earned my car, Hey, why is it called the free car if it's actually not a free car for social media? Because it gets people to join, it gets people interested and like, it's nice that they, okay, you get a stipend that goes towards your payment, but it's not free. You own the car and if you drop down, you know, a rank or whatever, or don't make a certain amount of money, you don't get the payment.
Emily Lynn Paulson: It's just, it's, it's very, it's very convoluted. Just, it's not a free car. You're basically buying a car and getting, you know, a payment. Um, but the day I earned the car is the day I got a DUI. And so this, it, it's the, I guess the dichotomy of this is what it looked like on social media. I was posing these pretty pictures with this white car with a bow on top, and I sure wasn't showing the picture of me like in handcuffs, you know, getting a DUI. So there's a lot of moments like that where this is what you saw and this is what was really going on, and, you know, how authentic are we really being versus, you know, what's really happening. So that's, that's one of the many, but that's a big one.
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, it, it strikes me as a mom. So I, my kids are, my daughter's 34, my son is 36. And, uh, I like to say that I've survived adolescence a couple of times and, you know, and, and my kids are, um, wonderful. We're very close and they have launched, um, in their own careers. And yet when I think about when I was writing Gaslight Effect, they were, of course, growing up and I was very deliberate about talking to them about boundaries and talking to them about things like, no is a whole sentence and Mm-Hmm,
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, I mean, same thing. Like, it's always okay to say no, that's a big one. Um, that it's okay to change your mind. That's another big one that for, because I know that's something that kept me stuck for a long time, is well, shoot, I made this decision, I gotta commit to it. And you don't, you can change your mind, you can change course at any time. Um, you can leave things that aren't so suiting you anymore, no matter how,
Dr. Robin Stern: How do you do that without be feeling like, well, maybe I'm being a quitter or without that voice coming from them that's believable to you. Why are you doing this? Like, yeah, this place,
Emily Lynn Paulson: You know, I think asking yourself, you know, if, am I doing this? Am I wanting to quit because it's a little bit tough? Or am I wanting to quit because this feels wrong? You know, those are, which are obviously two very different things. Um, and is this a constant feeling like you can have a day where you go to work and you're like, oh, I hate this place, and then the next day you're like, okay, I'm better. Um, is it something that's just persistent, you know, gnawing at you? Um, and, you know, I think the biggest one is reaching out for help because I know myself that I very much was a martyr and did not ask for help. And that's again, why I, I, I took the, the load of everything and all the kids and, and all the things, and then would drink the wine at night instead of just asking for a break or, or, you know, getting a babysitter to come over or something to just ask for help.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: I, I wanna just go back to something you said that I think is so important, which is, you know, is it that it's really wrong or maybe you're just a little uncomfortable? How do you tell the difference?
Emily Lynn Paulson: I honestly think we know, and I, and I do think this is when you, this is leans into like asking for help, like asking advice from people who can be objective. So, you know, if you're on a, I don't know, if you're on a basketball team, um, you know, your coach is gonna tell you to stay in, right? So like, maybe ask, you know, talk to a, a parent or a brother or someone who believes in you and wants you to do well, but can see objectively, like, no, you're just butting heads with your coach, you love basketball. Or can say, you know what, you say this every season, maybe this isn't the sport for you. Right. I do think, you know, I I I do think internally, you know, like, am I just resisting this because, you know, X, y, and ZI don't like this one person, this one player, or does this keep coming up every single time? I think it's the repeated nature of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. I was, I was just gonna agree with you about that. Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of years ago during the, um, I would say there was a movement in psychotherapy where a therapist would go to the country, let's say, or a retreat center with patients. And, um, and there would be, uh, thing rules were looser and people would sit around all night long at times. And I led a few of them myself. Um, we called them marathons and, and they were, they could be life-changing for people. People would go through a catharsis and, and then go back with their therapist and work it out. And, and, um, I remember meeting somebody in a group at that time who described a story where they had been on a different kind of retreat where somebody stood took his shirt off, and this, um, colleague of mine, um, said, uh, well, I just don't wanna do that. I'm not comfortable. And the whole group said, you're not comfortable or you're afraid.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Mm.
Dr. Robin Stern: And he said, no, no, no, I'm, I'm not comfortable. I, they said it again, you're not comfortable, or you're just, oh, no, he said, I'm not comfortable 'cause I think it's wrong. And then they said, you're not, you think it's wrong or you're just afraid. Mm-Hmm.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah, I mean, I would say, I always like to say like, it's not your fault, and that's the regarding alcohol or getting tr, you know, trapped in a coercive system. Um, you know, it's not your fault for getting addicted to an addictive substance. It's not your fault for believing that it's helpful. Uh, it's not your fault for trusting your friends and joining something. And it's not your fault for not making money. Like it's, the system is designed to not work. Um, and, and that you don't have to like, make any rash decisions. I think that's the other thing that people think. And I thought many times too, it's like, well, if I acknowledge that I have a drinking problem or I'm uncomfortable with my drinking, or if I acknowledge that I'm uncomfortable with the system I'm in, it means I have to quit. And so I'm not gonna talk about it because then I'm gonna have to quit.
Emily Lynn Paulson: And it doesn't have to be like that, like just starting the conversation and just planting the seed. Um, I think what I've learned about myself is that I'm a person. I tend to be a seeker. You know, I, I'm, I'm always like wanting to learn and take courses and, and I know for me it's important to never believe anything is the answer.
Dr. Robin Stern: So the combination of leaving that space and listening to your inner truth, especially when it comes up over and over.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, this has been really wonderful, wonderful, rich and meaningful conversation. Thank you so much, Emily. Yeah. Tell people where they can find you. Tell them where they can find the sober mom squad. Tell them where they can find your books.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Okay. You can find my books anywhere books are sold. I always say to, um, support local if you can, but it's available all the big box places too. Um, and then I'm at Emily Lynn Paulson on all platforms and Sober mom squad is on sober mom squad on all platforms. So,
Dr. Robin Stern: And anyone can join sober mom squad who wants to
Emily Lynn Paulson: Yep. Yeah. It's open to, you know, anyone who identifies with women's communities. Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you so much. Um, one more question just before we end. What is something that you're really excited about going forward into this year?
Emily Lynn Paulson: Oh, boy. Um, so this year my hun is being shopped as a series and
Dr. Robin Stern: It's exciting. Wow.
Emily Lynn Paulson: So we'll see what happens with that. Yeah.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, congratulations on that happening and, uh, fingers crossed. Yeah, that lies. Good luck with that. It's wonderful.
Emily Lynn Paulson: Thanks Robin.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks so much, Emily. Um, I look forward to hearing more from you and seeing you again in the future. Really do more conversations are in our future. Thanks, Robin. Sounds great. Thank you everyone who joined today and had the pleasure of listening to Emily Paulson and me talk about important things like the sober mom squad and MLMs and gaslighting. Looking forward to seeing you on the next episode. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
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robin.stern@yale.edu
