Podcast Player Episode 038

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really excited today to have my friend and colleague with me, Dr. Craig Dowden, who is the author of these two amazing books Behind me, A Time to Lead and Do Good, to Lead Well, both bestsellers, both really interesting and very real, very down to earth. And I recommend Craig also has one of the most popular podcasts. And so Craig, I'm gonna ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Sure. Well, thank you. And I'm thrilled to be here. I've been looking forward to this as soon as we started the conversation. And, uh, I always love speaking with you. Uh, so my background, I have a PhD in psychology, a specialization in business. I've always been fascinated by what makes people tick, and then the intersection within organizations. And I'm a solo opener, so I do executive coaching, either one-on-one with senior executives or entire leadership teams, senior leadership teams. I'm also a keynote speaker. I host the podcast, which has been a lot of fun. And thank you for joining me. It was one of the most popular and engaging episodes and

Dr. Robin Stern: A lot of fun. You're right. It was

Dr. Craig Dowden: . It was a lot of fun. And, uh, as you mentioned, I've been fortunate to write a couple of books and also write articles for different publications including, uh, Forbes, CEO World and Psychology Today.

Dr. Robin Stern: So Craig, um, we really did have a great conversation when, when I was on your podcast, but why did you say yes to coming on the Gaslight Effect podcast? What compels you about this topic?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, it's so important. Uh, I really appreciate Robin, your passion for shining a light on this, because this behavior and these behaviors have such a profound impact on us in our personal and professional lives. I hear about them in my coaching practice. When I do, uh, keynote speeches virtually or in person, people talk about it. And for me, what I really appreciate is, is letting people in on that, talking more openly about it so they can identify it, learn about it, and then, which I also really appreciate about your approach, equipping them with strategies. What are some things that we can do outside of the awareness? Awareness is important. So now what do I do when I encounter those? So as soon as you offered me, uh, the kind opportunity to be here, I was . I had to jump to the front of the line. I was very excited to come on board.

Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, wonderful. Thank you. So what have you seen in the workplace? What, what, um, has captured your attention about gaslighting and how did you know it was gaslighting? When did you hear about gaslighting?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, certainly through your incredible groundbreaking work. Uh, so it was familiar with that and, and understood the concept and concepts behind it. And then when speaking with my clients and in organizations, there are lots of different examples. So one of the most popular, I would say, and is also really challenging. So let's say colleagues, uh, I'm colleague on a team. I've experienced this in my career. You know, you have a conversation before an important strategy meeting. And okay, here's what we're gonna discuss. And then you come to agreement or what you think is agreement around what you're gonna talk about, what are the key positions you're gonna share the data or whatever you're gonna talk about in the meeting. And then in the meeting, the person does the exact opposite. Or when you've both talked about, Hey, I'm gonna step in and challenge this point 'cause it's critical, and then you come behind me and, and echo your support. Now the person is nowhere to be found. So then afterwards you go back and say, Hey, I thought we discussed this. And it's like, oh no, I never said that. And I, as I mentioned, I've experienced that, uh, clients of mine have experienced that. And that can be really challenging because once again, it questions your reality. , it makes you question, did we not have that conversation? Surely I recall this. And so it's deeply unsettling.

Dr. Robin Stern: I understand, of course, deeply, and, and I know you do too, 'cause we've talked about it, how the, the closeness of a relationship and the dependency in a relationship can, can cause you to second guess yourself When someone who supposedly loves you and cares about you, uh, tells you something that you know isn't true. But then, well, maybe it is true, because after all, they love me. And why would they say that if it's not true? But in the workplace, when your colleague is not supposed to love you, maybe they do, but is not supposed to love you and your colleague, uh, you just have this conversation before the meeting. What I'm interested in is what makes you second guess yourself. After the meeting, you know that you heard the conversation and your colleague says, no, I never said that. So what, what is that process? Can you unpack that a little bit?

Dr. Craig Dowden: I, I love the question, and it's so important because sometimes it can be even difficult to unpack when you reflect on it. And what I find is, is that when you're engaged in that conversation, and, and again, in my own experience and also my coaching work, the person seems authentically engaged. Like there's no kind of telltale signs that anything is going on. Very enthusiastic, very supportive. And so then afterwards, where it's so opposite, it's almost just like, it's a whole different track. It's like stranger things. It's the upside down world. And then you're trying to make sense of this. And then what's difficult is I find as well, and and this has been through amazing conversations, either you think, okay, how could someone be like that? Right? Like, so how could they possibly just look me in the eye and then come out differently? And so then you really struggle or you have your own beliefs, ideas around what's fair, what's right, what's appropriate.

Dr. Craig Dowden: And then you think, okay, so I must be off on this 'cause this doesn't jive. And then also as well, I find in different conversations. So there's a variety of different reasons, which is why I love the question sometimes when we are very strongly, for lack of a better term, people oriented, very people pleasing, want to not rock the boat, uh, very self-sacrificial, and then see that as a really critical part of who we are. And it's, it's one of our, you know, hey, I'm proud of that. So now it's on me to figure it all out to fix it. So it's a variety of reasons. I find, and sometimes they're all in there intermixed. When you encounter this kind of situation.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I really appreciate, um, what you were saying in this last answer to, to my question. And particularly the, the, the idea that people feel good when they accommodate other people. People feel good when they can be flexible. So at what point is it, um, let me accommodate. Okay. So I, I'm not sure that that's the way it happened, but he feel he's really certain about it. Maybe they're right. At what point it does accommodation become giving yourself up.

Dr. Craig Dowden: I couldn't agree more. And really, and to build on that great point you're making, Robin, it's almost enablement of this dynamic as well in terms of, okay, well now I am providing validation , if you'll to that perspective, if I'm not challenging it. So I think it's really critical for us to reflect on and say, okay, so what, what were the components of that conversation? Like, really? And start to think about now what were the things that I said, what were important to me? And then also not overly discount those inputs in that, because both inputs are important. So your perspective on the conversation is important. So is mine, I find another really valuable strategy is also to compare and contrast with other types of conversations that I've had.

Dr. Robin Stern: Tell me more about that. Tell me more.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, because what's really interesting is what I find in that dynamic is you can get caught in a little bit of a dance whereby, well, now you're trying to quote unquote, get the other person to see you are a good person, Uhhuh. Yeah. And so it's constantly focused on, and what I also find is fascinating, which going back to your question, this is why I was so excited to join you because in my experience, personal and professional is that where people are at most risk of being trapped in a gaslighting dance is when the other person is accusing them of something that is essentially the worst thing you could ever accuse them of. So I'm not a, a trustworthy colleague. I'm not someone who is caring and empathetic or whatever it is. So whatever is deep inside. And so now you can get caught on.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Wow, I've never been accused of that. I never, if you can say anything about me, never say that. So the power comes from stepping back and going, okay, where else have I ever heard of this feedback? ? And, and if the feedback is the exact opposite from countless conversations and countless relationships that you've had, and again, it's an honest self appraisal, then you can go, okay, just like in statistics, this is an outlier, which now makes me pay a little more attention to this. And then recognize there are outliers. So my overall, how I engage in relationships, how I communicate, is enough. It's healthy, and yet there can be situations where it doesn't work. And kind of the, the classic expression of stepping up to the balcony, if you will, and looking at things macro, incredibly helpful.

Dr. Robin Stern: But to connect the two points you just made about these, um, outrageous things that somebody might say, and also how someone can attach themselves to, to the effort of trying to convince you otherwise. Um, it is really hard when somebody who is, whose opinion you want to be good of you. It's not a great way to say it, but you know what I mean, Greg, that you, we want someone to have a high opinion of you. And, uh, all of a sudden they're telling you something that you find really upsetting about yourself. So how can you remove yourself from the gas, lighting, dance, which I call the gaslight tango? Yes. Yes. . Um, because it's a dance. Uh, how can you remove yourself if you can't get the person to agree, if you can't get the person to, to um, say you are right. You're a good person.

Dr. Robin Stern: You're not, you're not uncaring, you're not self interested, you're not, um, or only self-interested. You're not untrustworthy. And so your own emotions, your big emotions about that interaction and how wrong it feels, keep you hooked in. So I think it's real, a really important point. And so what can you do, and we'll get to that a little bit later, promise, we'll get to the strategies a little bit later, but I'd love to ask if you'd be willing to, to share with us what a time when you had the experience of really struggling with your own gaslighting moment.

Dr. Craig Dowden: No. Well, and thank you for that question. And, and also it's interesting because you touched on, so importantly, it's a relationship you deeply value. And also there's an element of it in terms of validation, . So the person you value validating you, your behaviors, what you're saying. And so there was one situation, uh, a very longstanding situation for me and, and really wanted to be able to connect. And the relationship was incredibly challenging for me. And so one day I decided, okay, I'm going to, I, I need to engage, for me to be my authentic self reflecting on who I am, I'm disengaging from this relationship. That's very important. And so what I wanted to do was say, okay, I'm going to provide feedback. I'm gonna attempt to engage so that we can discuss this.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And deepen the relationship

Dr. Craig Dowden: And Exactly. And so that's how I opened it. I went through, you know, I, again, my background, I went through all of the research on feedback. I prepared my conversational roadmap. And so essentially I was saying to the person, I said, I, I, you know, I'd, I'd love to give some feedback. You've talked about having, you know, honest conversations. I'm gonna lean into the that today and provide some feedback. 'cause I'd love for our relationship to deepen, to have a stronger relationship. And so without getting in any details, I said, when I will share something with you, I feel when you respond, if I'm asking you for something, you make excuses for that behavior. So it's very challenging for me to engage because I'm disengaging from the conversation. I find it's hurtful, and that as soon as I try to raise it, I feel like you're gonna make excuses.

Dr. Craig Dowden: So the person was upset about that and said, well, I'm not making excuses. So what's interesting is, in my journey, I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna ask questions. 'cause in the past I would react to that and we might have an argument. So then I said, okay, well if you're not making excuses, what are you doing? Like, please, I, I'm curious. Help me understand. And the person said, well, I'm not making excuses. What I'm doing is providing you with reasons for why I'm doing it. And so I was stuck and I said, okay, I'm really struggling. What's the difference between that an excuse and providing reasons for what you're doing? And then what was really interesting to unpack this further is that the person said, well, I can't believe you are accusing me of making excuses. Mm-hmm, , right. And then pivoted away and Oh, it's your fault.

Dr. Craig Dowden: It's my fault. Exactly. And then I said, N no, what what I'm trying to do is, is have an honest conversation. And so this is a behavior that's concerning to me. Can we talk about it some more? And so it's, it's hurting me. And then the person said, well, I can tell you no matter how much you've been hurt by my behavior, I can think of a worse thing to accuse me of than making excuses. 'cause that's not who I am. So that to me was a very, uh, incredibly challenging, uh, a a very difficult conversation to stay in for me and stay curious. It hurt. It really was difficult. I can share with you, I've reflected on it a lot. And, and it was a foundational moment for me in terms of making a very challenging decision to say, this is not a healthy dynamic. This is really difficult to continue. Uh, because no matter how much I attempted to explore, it was each time it continued to come back to me, it continued to be the, the volley across the fence.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, first of all, thank you for generously sharing this story with us. Um, sounds like it was very important to you, and it was a defining moment when you had prepared and unpacked for yourself and spent time thinking about how to gingerly approach a tough subject with somebody who doesn't like to be confronted, obviously. But I wonder, uh, did you spend a moment thinking it, could it be true that, that I am You did. Yes. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think what was happening was, and I really appreciate your question, that in previous interactions, that would stop the conversation. I, because of how much I valued the relationship and how much I really wanted to be able to find a way. And because it was so outside of the norm for me in terms of my relationships that would short circuit the discussion. So I would then receive that, and either through a lack of, it was almost exasperation saying, it's just not worth it. Okay, fine. Like I've just, I don't have it today. And then through reflection, realizing, no, that's, now what's happening is, is that's not serving me or not serving the relationship. Or in other cases, exactly, to your point, Robin, I would sit with it and go, maybe I haven't done it right. And I would dissect every word, every piece.

Dr. Craig Dowden: And once again, I was going, okay, this doesn't feel good and it doesn't feel right because I'm attempting to share my perspective and I'm attempting without judgment, letting the other person know how it's impacting me. And yet I feel after that conversation, I am left with figuring it out, or it's my problem in which the lead up to that discussion and, and why I share it as a, as a transformative moment for me, was that I made the commitment to go in and be endlessly curious and really be mindful of my own reactions and my own reactivity, and also shutting it down. I really wanted to go as far as I could in that discussion.

Dr. Robin Stern: So important. And I'd like to, to ask a question that maybe, um, is usually asked about corporations or a business relationship. Like what did it do to your psychological safety in that relationship?

Dr. Craig Dowden: It, it is a, it's a fantastic question. And there was, as you and your listeners and, and, and within the question there, there really was none. Um, because if psychological safety is so important, you see it everywhere in terms of organizations, you, it's so critical in our personal lives. And for me, it quickly became apparent and over time that, well, if I can't share any piece of me, if I can't share my perspective, if I can't share what's important to me, if I can't share, uh, a situation where it just didn't feel good, not even assigning, assigning blame, just going, Hey, uh, I just wanna highlight this. I just wanna point this out. Then the relationship was 100% zero. And so what was happening was, is that I was showing up as an observer, yet anyone could take my role in that. And once again, it was, it was challenging to, to, to reflect on and recognize that piece. Yet it was, it was vitally important. And so I realized there was no safety. And then without safety, how can you have any kind of relationship? Because it's really predicated on the other person.

Dr. Robin Stern: So important. And thank you for that. Um, the, where that takes me is complete imbalance of where you were when you started the conversation. You trying to build psychological safe space for your friend, partner, family member, whoever that person was in your life, using your curiosity, uh, being committed to lack of judgment. I'm gonna stay in this with lack of judgment, right? I'm gonna be curious. Um, and uh, I, I think that's so important because there was no interest on this person's part for your psychological safety.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Exactly. And in fact, so I love the point that you're making. And in fact, what I took from that conversation as well is that any reference to my own psychological safety then was turned around in terms of their own lack of their perceived lack of psychological safety. Yes. That, and it was so fascinating. I find once again, this is where it's such a powerful dynamic. I love the tango part of it, because then it's, well, what was my concern? The issue I wanted to raise now quickly became, well, now I'm feeling unsafe. And in fact, if you are feeling unsafe, that was what was remarkable to me. Well, if you feel X, like, you know, if I'm having a bad impact on you, you are not feeling nearly as bad as I am right now. And once again, my psychological safety and my request for could we elevate my level of psychological safety turned into, well, you shouldn't be asking for that. 'cause I don't have, I have less than you have.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And you can just feel, I mean, when, as we're talking about it right now, you can feel how this person was trying to squirm their way out of responsibility and out of looking at themselves. What's the connection then, between what we're talking about now and that important dynamic where you can do whatever you have with inside of you to create space for someone else. Um, but if they're not willing to do it, then how do you establish psychological safety? And, and let's begin the conversation of what's the cost of not establishing psychological safety in business?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Uh, it, it's incredibly damaging. Uh, there's so much evidence around, well, if you don't have psychological safety at work, what's gonna suffer performance? Because you're not gonna be able to have discussions around issues. So if our team isn't functioning effectively, uh, what are we gonna do when we run into challenges? What's gonna happen when there's bad news to be shared and people don't feel safe to share it? I mean, how many historical examples

Dr. Robin Stern: Can, that is so scary, Craig, to think of

Dr. Craig Dowden: Exactly where people knew and then they were so afraid to speak up and share their concerns that they just said, well, it's not on me and I'm not gonna do it. And then there are profound. So these can be small impacts. They can be massive impacts. Uh, and that's on a performance side. I mean, you look at any metric profitability in an organization, engagement in an organization. Let's talk about innovation.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. Tell me.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Yeah. I mean, you know, we're in a world now that it, things are changing so fast, it's mind boggling. Like things, this pace of change is quicker now than ever before. And tomorrow it's gonna be faster. And the day after that, it's gonna be faster. What does that mean? Well, if you look at any global conferences, the top business publications globally respected, uh, outlets, what are they saying? We need to be agile. We need to be adaptable, we need to be innovative. We have to think outside the box. Be prepared to disruption. Well, how do you disrupt if you are afraid? How do you disrupt if you don't feel safe when someone says, Hey, let's think outside of the box. Well, what am I gonna do if I don't feel psychological safety? And I love your question, Robin, 'cause I come across it in my consulting and coaching work.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, if you ask people to be innovative, what are they gonna do? They're gonna take what has already been done 'cause that's safe, and they're just gonna tweak it a little, little bit because it's innovative. , I've, I've shifted it a little bit. I'm not going into the 180 degrees. I'm not going into unchartered territory because now there are consequences and I don't feel safe. And it's interesting when people and organizations I speak to talk about, well, the lack of innovation and the ideas, I'll ask. So tell me the last really transformative idea. What was it? How was it received? What happened? Tell me about a recent failure or setback in the organization. Amy Edmondson from Harvard wrote a great book, the right Kind of Wrong, how do you Deal with Failure? All of those things are vitally important. And, and reverting back to gaslighting, if I say, oh, yeah, all ideas are welcome. Come in, come in. It's great. Like, challenge us, disrupt us, and then it doesn't work. Or I don't like your idea, and now you are relegated to the D team, and I never ask you again.

Dr. Robin Stern: Right? And then I come to you and I say, you know, it seems like I'm relegated to the D team. And yes, you know, I'm concerned because I, I wanna share my ideas. Oh, no, nothing's different,

Dr. Craig Dowden: Right?

Dr. Robin Stern: You are, don't you think maybe you're just a little overly sensitive and maybe you need to de-stress and take a vacation?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Absolutely. And so, and so damaging to hear that once again whereby, uh, that you are accusing, well, it's your sensitivity,

Dr. Robin Stern: Right?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Uh, you know, it's in this tough, rough and tumble world of business. And it's, and again, what's really interesting, we're all human beings on this remarkable human journey. And relationships are everything

Dr. Robin Stern: . So Craig, you write so much and so eloquently and, and accessibly about leadership. What, what does it take to be a leader who establishes psychological safety? And can you tell us a little bit about that?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Wow. Well, uh, well, I'm thrilled, uh, 'cause I love these, these, these conversations. I think authenticity, authentic leadership, and people being clear, I love, um, I had the pleasure, as you know, of collaborating with Alan Mully, uh, the former CEO of Ford. And he talked about the best definition of authentic leadership. I've come across, he shared with me where he said, authentic leadership is when your values, beliefs, and your behaviors are in alignment.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes.

Dr. Craig Dowden: But people only see your behaviors and then make assumptions about your values and beliefs. And going back to psychological safety, even if I may disagree with someone in terms of their ultimate decision or where they want to go, when I'm clear on the values and beliefs underlying those decisions and the actions that we're taking, even if it's not my own, I respect it. And also what it does is there's stability there. It provides, it's really fascinating in terms of, so why is authentic leadership a superpower in times of crisis? Well, I know each and every day who I'm going to interact with those behaviors. So it's not exactly as you just beautifully talked about, Robin, where I'm saying this, and then I'm coming back with an opposite answer, and then accusing you of the very thing. So the, the, the gaslighting tango. I think also for psychological safety, there's a critical element of humility. I think another vitally important quality.

Dr. Robin Stern: Please share your thoughts about that, Craig, because I'm, I think it's so important personally, think it's so important. And yet, um, under-discussed

Dr. Craig Dowden: . Yes. Well, humility, it's so interesting because one of my favorite studies was where they surveyed, uh, employees and leaders and they said, Hey, how important is being humble for being a leader? You ask employees, it's one of the top, if not the top thing that they want in their leader.

Dr. Robin Stern: Please tell our listeners, how does it show up when somebody has humility? What does that look like to other people?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Thank you. No, I, I love the question. And, and a lot of times, humility seen as weakness, exactly as you say, why it's and meekness that. Well, I don't show up. And to me, I'm gonna paraphrase Adam Grant, bestselling author out of Wharton. Um, and I love how he's described it. He said, I speak with the conviction as if I'm right, and I listen with the conviction as if I'm wrong. Ah,

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm,

Dr. Craig Dowden: Brilliant. Right? Uh, and, and so humility, what I love about the, the textbook definition of humility is I understand, recognize and accept that I have strengths. I understand, recognize, and accept that I have gaps. And so humility is this beautiful balance of I do some things, well, I do some things not so well, and likely a lot more things not well. And so that's such a powerful quality for us to have, because when I'm engaging with people from a psychological safety standpoint, and I'm advocating my idea, well, we've all been part of meetings where, oh, well, as long, you know, if it's Craig's idea, that's it. You can't basically just follow along whatever Craig says. Psychological safety is where you can have multiple people share very diverse perspectives. And we learn from that. So, yes, I'm passionate about my idea and I can advocate for it. Now when I'm done, I step back and now I listen as if my idea doesn't fit . And I'm innately curious about Robin's idea.

Dr. Robin Stern: So do you think then, um, and this is something that I haven't thought about myself, that the, that being, uh, having a deep humility can make you vulnerable to gaslighting.

Dr. Craig Dowden: So humility, making you vulnerable to gaslight. Well,

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm wondering about that because if you are listening with the deep conviction that maybe you're wrong, then maybe you're listening to the deep for the, with the deep conviction that, that you are, and I, it does actually make sense. And I actually think it's really an incredible point to make, because something that is something maybe you like so much about yourself that you, you are humble and you, or you value that about yourself and other people, that same quality does give you pause. Does say, okay, does allow you to say, let me take a step back. They're so certain, maybe, maybe they're right. And it doesn't mean that then they are right. It doesn't mean that people who have humility are going to then decide that other people are right. But it does maybe mean that you take that extra pause. What do you think?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, and what I would say, this is why I love the, the textbook definition of humility is, Hey, I have things to add and I have things that I'm, I'm not gonna be able to add as well. And it's that balanced perspective, I think. And that's why I love your, uh, description, you know, the gaslighting tango and, and in the different examples that we've touched on, talked about both on my podcast here today, it's really where the other person is dictating everything. Yes. And so to me, what I think humility allows us, so to me, what I would, what, how I would build on what you're saying, Robin, is that, so then someone who that classic miss, you know, that meekness, right? Like, okay, it must be, must be, I don't have what it takes. Element humility may be the opportunity to sit back and just receive what's coming in a balanced way, going, okay, so what are, what are both sides? And what I find is really interesting,

Dr. Robin Stern: I like, I like that. Thank you. Yeah,

Dr. Craig Dowden: No, you're welcome. And what I'm loving about this conversation again, why I was so excited to join you, leadership is full of paradoxes , right? It's, uh, I, I had the privilege to speak with Stephen Covey, amazing book, trusted Inspire, Adam Bryant, uh, bestselling author, a corner office, you know, there are these paradoxes dichotomies, yet they, they coexist. Doug Conant, former CEO of Campbell's. Talk about the power of the, and it's like, I need to be humble and I need to be cur, you know, courageous. So humble and courage, empathy and performance. A lot of times what we do is we dichotomize these things. We say, well, if I'm empathetic, then the sacrifice is, is that I have a low performance team or a low performance organization. That mindset is misguided and unhelpful. And so then back to the power of the, and Doug Conant, right?

Dr. Craig Dowden: It's, well, how can I be empathetic and pursue high standards? How can I speak my truth and be open to alternative perspectives? And neither of those win the day. It's almost, it's really interesting. I love this discussion, right? If I overindex on, well, me, me, me, me, me. That's arrogance. I don't care about your needs, your ideas, it's all about me. If all I focus on is you will, now all I'm trying to figure out is how to rig the game so that I don't upset the apple cart. And everything's all, I've totally lost sight of myself in any relationship. I matter, and you matter. We both matter. We both have contributions to make in that relationship. And I love seeing it in that way, . And sometimes one of us will, I mean, let's have fun. You were on my podcast, so I was asking you questions. Now, today you're asking, and there's that, right? There's, there's shifting of roles and, and space and all of this great stuff. To me, that's the richness of life. That's the richness of conversation. That's the richness of relationships and at the heart of psychological safety.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Love it. Craig. And I, back to humility, I, because I don't wanna leave our listening audience thinking that humility, uh, unnecessarily means that you're going to be vulnerable to gaslighting. Mm-Hmm. . But humility does allow you that space or encourage you to have that space to be a good listener. Yes. And to be curious, hopefully curious, as curious about yourself in that moment that you stopped a question as you are about other people, and having humility and the courage of your convictions sounds like the right combination to be able to hold onto your ideas and your own reality. When you take a step back and say, well, you know, I'm listening to him say this and this and this. Could it be true? Well, it's not true of me. It's not true of me.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Absolutely. And I think that's vitally important, and I love how you integrated values into that discussion as well. And what are my values and how do I live my values? How do I lead with my values? These are absolutely critical. And once again, back to, uh, empathy, back to listening. So being open, so actively listening to alternative perspectives, and yet I don't have to agree. So seeking to under understanding does not equal agreement. I love that. Right? As a, so I can understand your perspective. I don't have to agree with it. And that's okay.

Dr. Robin Stern: One other point that I really wanna make sure to highlight in this conversation is back to your personal story and, and also bears on this, the, um, discussion about psychological safety and humility and questioning, like tuning into your emotions when you're having these conversations is so critical. I mean, of course, all of my work at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and with Mark Bracket and his brilliant book, permission to Feel, all of that is with me in that this moment thinking, um, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, if you are more right about a particular point than I'm right about a particular point, or I'm right about a particular point than you are more so than you are. What matters is, are we able to stay in this discussion with empathy, with respect, where I feel comfortable and I feel safe back to psychological safety, that your emotional life will give you the information you need to know if the people you're working with or the people you're dealing with are leaving you. Not only, um, in a place where you are vulnerable to being gaslighted but uncomfortable more than you want as a leader, watching that in organizations, what can you do if you notice that there are interactions that go on where some people are cringing, some people are definitely shutting down. Some people are who used to be perhaps very involved in, in, uh, rich conversations about innovation, creativity, or not seem to be afraid to share their ideas and take risks. What do you do as a leader?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Love this question and, and, and, and your discussion. And one of the things that I was thinking about as well is that when you were speaking, Robin, is one of my favorite questions to ask is, do you want to be right or do you wanna make progress in in the conversation? Um, and I, I think it's so valuable what you are speaking on right now as a leader. 'cause you're gonna see different types of behavior. So a couple of things, building on the great examples that, that you provided. So as an example, if I've seen someone that isn't participating in a meeting, uh, let's say before, so we're in a hybrid world, say, and now, uh, in our virtual meetings, their camera used to be on, now it's off. Uh, they used to ask questions. They don't ask questions anymore. I'm in person. Uh, before they're really engaged and animated, now they're sitting back on their phone, folding their arms, really powerful opportunity outside the meeting, virtual or in person, and go to them and say, you know, Hey, Craig, just wanted to check in. I may be off on this. I've noticed on our, on our team meetings, your camera used to be on, and, and now it's off. Uh, you used to ask lots of great questions and, and, and share your ideas and perspectives. You haven't contributed, uh, very much. And really over the last six weeks, I haven't heard from you at all. Like, I just wanna check in. Mm-Hmm. what's happened.

Dr. Robin Stern: So sharing observations without judgment.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Exactly.

Dr. Robin Stern: Connecting without

Dr. Craig Dowden: Judgment. Connecting without judgment. And then they may say, you know, Hey, no, everything is fine. And this and that, or what's going on, what's lovely is now, and in my coaching practice, people have done that. Sometimes the person, every case, they appreciate the check-in, especially without the judgment. In some cases, it unlocks a conversation around something that's going on personally or professionally for them. Other cases, what it does is even if they say no, all is good, guess what happens in the next, the subsequent meetings, camera's on, they're back. They're, they're more engaged. I love your point as well about what happens in the team dynamic. What do you do as a leader?

Dr. Craig Dowden: For me, one of the best strategies, and something I talk about a lot, is create a team charter, which basically is a set of commitments that we make around how we are going to be working together. Because a lot of cases, again, people go, well, did that cross the line? Am I the only one that saw this? Et cetera, et cetera. And then team members aren't sure, the leader isn't sure. And then it's, oh, well it seems like it's over. Craig's fine now. No, Craig's not fine. This continues. And now implicitly validates that that's okay. The team charter is saying, what are six to eight behavioral commitments? And you can do this as a team, or you can bring someone in and work with the team around this six to eight behavioral commitments that when someone walks in from the outside, they could give us a grade in terms of how we're exhibiting those behaviors.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Awesome way, you know, no, so many teams probably could guess one of them. No personal attacks. We can critique an idea. You don't critique well, where's your degree from? Or anything like. That's all, uh, out of bounds. Now we know how to orient. Now we're much more strongly aligned. And then what's particularly powerful as a leader is as soon as someone steps outside of those boundaries, immediate intervention, I did a big survey with a bunch of clients of mine and asked them, what's one of the best things you could do to build a respectful and safe engaging culture? And they said, take immediate action when there's a behavior, just like medical sciences. Mm-Hmm, earlier. We catch it, the easier it is to deal with.

Dr. Robin Stern: I love it. And I love your charter. And we have to have a whole other conversation about charters because we, at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence also have a charter. Our charter is in every classroom, every boardroom, every uh, commu, every faculty lounge in every school we work with in every corporation we work with. And it's based on the question, how do you wanna feel when you come to work every day? Or how do you wanna feel in this classroom? And importantly, and very much like what you just described, what are the behaviors that we all have to engage in for us to feel respected? For example, um, honored for example, included, um, ex inspired. So to your point, all people can do is to be responsible. I mean, in that moment, people can be responsible about their behavior. They can't control their feelings, but they can always be responsible about, uh, for their behavior. And behavior is what other people see, and it's what other people react to.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Absolutely. And what I love about the example you're providing, it's so cool how, you know, you do that and use this everywhere. What a beautiful anchoring

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Tool, right? Where I'm showing up at a meeting, it's all over the wall. It's a part of my expectations. And to your point today, I'm not feeling it today. I've had a rough day, I didn't sleep well or had a difficult conversation, whatever it is. And now I show up and I may be a little amped up, maybe I'm a lot amped up. And then I look and go, wow. And, and, and with some of my clients, they will read one of the elements of the charter out loud before the meeting begins.

Dr. Robin Stern: And we do that too. . There

Dr. Craig Dowden: You go. Yeah. And, and bingo. And now you go, right, okay, this is why I'm here. So it allows that kind of, uh, softening, bringing this back to center. And I love your point also, and I couldn't agree more, Robin, and around the self-awareness piece, being aware of our mindset and being aware of our emotions. What are the assumptions? Like how am I thinking about this and how am feeling about that? To me, that's absolutely foundational for everything.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm so glad you said that because I was just gonna ask you, and what's the role of self-awareness in becoming a good leader?

Dr. Craig Dowden: I struggle to see, and there, and, and I'm a huge fan of, of science, uh, social science, leadership, science, organizational science research. And there's countless studies showing in so many different domains, uh, self-awareness, if you are not self-aware. So the more we are aware of who we are and how we come across to other people, the better equipped we are to show up most effectively regardless of the situation we're in. And so, so much in my coaching practice that, and in my personal life when I've spoken with people, what do I continually hear? Oh, I just went in and I was triggered, or I just wasn't, I was, I let my emotions get the better of me. Uh, I didn't realize how upset I was on tell X, and then I said, Y and now I'm struggling with it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Right. I wish there was a do over. Right.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Exactly. That's right. And, and so I feel that that self-awareness is so vitally important because once, and, and I love how you've touched on this and made this observation multiple times during our conversations, the importance of curiosity and non-judgment, sitting with it without assigning a label or any judgment and just going, what can I learn from this? What is this about? If I'm not feeling what I think I should be feeling, or I'm not thinking what I should be thinking in my mind, rather than being upset at myself for it. Wow, this means there's a huge learning moment in here

Dr. Robin Stern: . Exactly.

Dr. Craig Dowden: 'cause I am even recognizing this. And so to me, I can't think of a more vitally important piece. Um, I just had a great conversation, uh, for my podcast. And, and it was a four-part series that's gonna come out. And, and it's around this idea of chief awareness officer speaking with an award-winning CEO and their organization has been remarkably successful for 20 plus years. It's, our whole conversation was around awareness.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. Well, so important. Thank you for always shining the light on the most important concepts in leadership. So we are going to have to wrap up for today, but not before. Um, two things, not before I ask you, what, what are you excited about in the coming year? What do you hope to manifest?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Well, this is definitely, uh, at the top of my list, having conversations like this. Um, I love hosting, um, my podcast that you, that you mentioned. I love being able to speak with top thought leaders like yourself about the topics that that matter most. And I'm, I'm excited and committed to getting out and being part of the conversation on the other side of the mic, like today, . So that, that, that's a big piece. And continuing to grow and shine a light on these topics. And in particular, considering, you know, the, the world and where we are and the challenges that we face every single day and the unease. I'm re I'm more amped up than ever before to continue conversations around positive leadership and, and PO and leadership. We are all the CEOs of our own lives. So no matter where we are in a particular organization or role. And so for me, how can we have the impact that we wanna most have on ourselves, the people we care about and the world? And the more I can be a part of that conversation considering with where we are, that to me is what I hope to manifest in 2024.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's so beautiful and such a great commitment on your part for yourself. And the world needs more of you. We need to see more of you. And I hope to have lots of opportunities to work with you and, and to do, uh, just to be in that space, this space with you where new ideas emerge, where there's an excitement about learning and self-learning and curiosity and, and a commitment to empathy and caring. And so where can people buy your great books?

Dr. Craig Dowden: Thank you. That's very kind and and I can't wait to continue our conversations. Uh, my books, you can, Amazon, burns and Noble, any major online or other, uh, brick and mortar, uh, bookstore you can go onto and

Dr. Robin Stern: Your podcast website.

Dr. Craig Dowden: Uh, my podcast is on Spotify and on Apple do good to lead well, uh, after, uh, the title of my first book and my latest book is The Time to Lead, which I wrote with Alan Mulally. So was a lot of fun. Um, and again, to your point, Alan Mulally, one of the most highly celebrated CEOs and respected CEOs of all time, remarkable turnaround story at Ford. And, and I love this, at the center of his working together management system is a heart and the, the phrase people first love them up and this is Ford.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's a wrap then. That, that people, first, I definitely agree. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Craig. This has been really wonderful and fun and meaningful to all of our listeners. I have no doubt. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by supported by Susan Pettit, Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.