Podcast Player Episode 035

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm thrilled to welcome this time a returning guest, Hannah Husain, a New York City high school senior who next year will be going to some lucky, very fortunate university or college, and we don't know where yet. We look forward to hearing where you're going to be going, and you'll keep us posted. Please. Uh, in the meantime, thank you for coming back to, to the podcast and I'd love to know what's been on your mind about gaslighting and anything else you'd like to share with us since we last connected with you when you were living abroad in Spain.

Hannah Husain: Thank you so much for the introduction, Dr. Stern. Um, last time that I was on the Gaslight Effect Podcast, I was really getting into the early stages of what is gaslighting, um, when have I experienced or witnessed other people being gaslit? And I was really starting to get interested in these interactions and how they affect the people around me. But recently I've been thinking more about how these interactions have been affecting me as well, and even how I have unintentionally gaslit other people.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'd love to hear more about that, both how you've been, what, what was it like for you to experience gaslighting as the target and also, um, how courageous of you to and vulnerable of you to share with us times that you have been the gaslight. So our audience, um, will be very interested as well.

Hannah Husain: Well, I think this specific example is very relevant right now. Um, and not only does this happen or has this happened to me, it's happened to almost every kid I know or a lot of kids, um, just growing up and hearing about Santa Claus that's going to be coming to visit your home and going to every child's house that night and dropping off presents and gifts. And

Dr. Robin Stern: It's true about Santa, right?

Hannah Husain: Oh, well, yes, of course. I mean, I'm still, I'm still a believer, but I was fortunate enough to grow up with this, uh, this celebration around the, around the wintertime and all of these, um, these celebrations that my parents created for me. And if we are fortunate to grow up around this, it's amazing. But at the same time, Santa Claus and another example could be the tooth fairy are actually examples of small gaslighting.

Dr. Robin Stern: Don't tell me there's no tooth fairy. Is that what you mean,

Hannah Husain: In a way? Um, I guess I could gaslight you right now and say, and say that there is, or that there's not. I mean, gaslighting is never, it's never good because there's always an impact that has a person second guessing their own, their own ability to see things clearly. However, I think the unintentional gaslighting is where it's, there's an intention to do good. However, without knowing that this impact could actually create real, um, distrust in a person later in life, they could really not trust themselves in making bigger decisions with, with bigger impacts later in life. Um, starting with something as small and mild as the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. And when kids are questioning how Santa can get to every child's house in one night and parents have to continuously say, no, he's real, and he comes and they're continuously lying, then when a child does find out that their parents are giving them gifts every Christmas and holiday season, they're gonna think, how many other people have been lying to me? Or How many other people have been gaslighting me in my life? What else am I wrong about in my life? What else should I be questioning? And it's really just a state of, I guess, uncertainty in all sorts of life. If one thing that big that you have believed for that long comes out to be a lie and untrue from people that you know are the closest to you.

Dr. Robin Stern: So let's, let's follow that thread, Hannah, like why I think that that your, the words you're using are very impactful. That it's that person who's gaslighting you as your mom, your dad, like these are the people who love you. Is that why it's so hard to counter that reality is that's why it's so hard? Has it been hard for you at times to hold onto your reality or for your friends to hold onto your reality? Because after all, it's your parents and they love you. Why would they tell you something that's not true?

Hannah Husain: Right. Well, I think that parents have a lot of parents, and my parents as well, unintentionally gaslight all of the time out of the, the be they want what's best for their children. And that's why a lot of parents, um, do gaslight them. Uh, for example, if a child has had a lot of sugar that day, I know that I have a sweet tooth. And when I was younger, I would say to my parents, oh, just, just one more cookie or Can I have this? Or, I'm actually, I'm hungry, but we couldn't stop the car, or we were going somewhere. And my parents would say, no, you're, you're just tired. And I think the emotional gaslighting, the unintentional emotional gaslighting that parents don't think of when they're sitting at the wheel and they turn around to their complaining kids who are hungry and just say, you're just tired, just take a nap.

Hannah Husain: Um, the emotional gaslighting is actually not a mild form. It's more of a serious form, because then the next time I'm hungry and I wanna say, you, you know, I'm actually really hungry. I'm gonna think, well, maybe I should just take a nap instead of realizing, no, I actually might just be hungry and I should be listening to my own emotions and my own feelings. And so not only does this happen with parents, this happens with friends, with acquaintances, with people you meet on the streets. So this is not just a parent to child emotional gaslighting interaction, emotional gaslighting happens everywhere. But I think it's one of the most damaging forms because not understanding your own emotions and not trusting your own emotions can help you, I mean, leads you to, um, really question and not be able to understand really impactful decisions in your life later on.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm, , that's a very interesting example. The sitting in the back of the car and you being told as a group of kids or, uh, as the children in the family, the same message, just take a nap. Uh, and I wonder if, um, what you think about siblings in a family, is it likely that some, that you might be more vulnerable than your brother? Is it likely that someone else might be more vulnerable than their sister? Like what, what do you think about that?

Hannah Husain: Well, I also think in a way I have contributed to my, my brothers being gaslit and gaslighted. I think that I have gaslit them several times unintentionally. Um, when my younger brother comes to my room and he says, Hannah, I've been doing math homework all night and I'm burnt out. I'm tired, but you know, I want him to keep working. I want what's best for my younger brother. I want him to do well. So I say, you're not, you're not tired. You're, you know, just take a second and go back and keep working. And, and in the long run, he does get burnt out because he is not listening to his own emotions and his own feelings. He's listening, he's listening to me, which is, which is not, which is great to listen to other people's perspectives and opinions sometimes. But I think that when you a tip for understanding and being able to point out gaslighting is when you can understand, no, this is how I feel. Or maybe I should take that into account. So if my younger brother was really burnt out and I said, no, you're not, just go back into your room. You're just saying that because it's a hard week and everybody's been saying they're burnt out, and you feel influenced by that.

Dr. Robin Stern: So did you think that he wasn't burnt out and he was just trying to get out of doing his work? Or did you want him to push through it because you knew he had to do it no matter how he was feeling? Like where, what was your intention?

Hannah Husain: Well, I think the sad reality is that it could have been either, and I thought he could be really tired right now, and he could be very burnt out, and he could also just not be very burnt out. And he's just hearing that everybody else in his class is really burnt out for this exam on Friday, so all of a sudden he feels burnt out and instead of telling him, yeah, you are burnt out, I was, I wanted what's best for him. And I thought, you know, what's best for him is to keep working and to do well on this exam. So I thought, no, you're just saying that because you're being influenced by your peers. But instead, I could have thought maybe this, maybe my younger brother is burnt out, and I could have taken a step back and realized that if I tell him, you are not burnt out and you're just being influenced by the people around you, he's going to go back to his desk, continue studying, and later in life be questioning his own emotions the next time he feels burnt out or tired, or another emotion.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for sharing that example. I think that it likely happens a lot between friends, um, in families, especially when you have someone's best interest in mind and you think what you know, what's best for them, which we don't always. Right? Certainly even parents and, and siblings don't know in the moment what's best. And we certainly don't know what other people are feeling unless we really listen to them and ask the question. And then when they tell us, I'm feeling burnt out, why wouldn't we believe him? Right. So even in that you were not sure that he was really feeling burnt out when he was directly telling you, I'm feeling burnt out, and you still thought you knew better. So thank you for being vulnerable. How can you stop yourself the next time you feel like you want to insist on your reality?

Hannah Husain: I think when someone is opening up and being vulnerable enough to tell you how they're feeling and their emotions, you have to take it in a way where it's not them telling you how they think they feel. It's them telling you how they really feel. Because the only person that can really know how they feel is, is themselves the only person who knows how I feel is me the only person who knows how you feel is you. And and if someone comes to me and says, I feel really tired. I feel really sick, I'm not gonna turn to them and say, well, that's placebo. Everybody's saying that there's a sickness going around. I, I'm not gonna turn to them and say, well, you're probably not tired. You just need something to eat. If someone's coming and opening up to me about something that they feel, I need to recognize that that's an emotion, the way that I might respond could be emotional gaslighting, and I need to take a step back and say, okay, why do you feel that way? And I'll only offer my advice if asked for it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Well, I think that's wonderful that you can put yourself on that kind of, uh, course where, or journey where you are tuning into your own perceptions, your own emotions, your own intentions in interactions so that you can regulate your impulse to try to make it better for him out of your own belief about what he should do without really listening. So I think that's, that's a really good example. But you're, you're also, um, making me think about the kind of gaslighting and families that perhaps tying it back to Santa Claus and the tooth fairy that is socially acceptable. It's kind of socially acceptable to, or it is socially acceptable to help somebody do better in school if that's a goal of theirs. So are you gaslighting somebody in that moment, uh, or defending yourself even unconsciously in that moment? It's okay to do this because I want 'em to do better in school, or of course I'm gonna tell the tell you that there's a tooth fairy because all your friends believe there's a tooth fairy. Everybody in the neighborhood believes is there's a Santa Claus, this is what we believe, and this is what we tell are supposed to tell our kids. So if they don't think I'm right and they're going to, um, so if my kids don't believe in Santa Claus, there must be something wrong with them, right? , I'm gonna tell them. Right. They're too, they're too, um, uh, rebellious or they're too cynical. Um, because there really is Santa Claus very socially acceptable.

Hannah Husain: Right. I mean, I think also familial gaslighting is a thing as, as a whole, a whole family can be gaslit and of course not intentionally. Um, I would say all of these examples that I'm providing are unintentional gaslighting, which I'm fortunate enough to have been around majority, um, unintentional gaslighting. So it's really people who want what's best for me. And when I do it, it's unintentionally when I want what's best for other people. But I think a quote that I heard, um, one of my friend's parents say when she was really upset about something over the summer was, we do not yell in this family, and we do not lie in this family. And as humans, we have all yelled. And as humans, we have probably all lied. And I think that saying to a kid that's, that's young, especially hearing that when you're under the age of 12, you could think, well, I have yelled, I I have lied.

Hannah Husain: Do I, do I not belong in this family? Am I not I not worthy enough to be a part of this family? What does that mean if we do not yell in this family? Or if we do not do something in this family, what does it mean if I don't fit a certain part of this family? It's, it happens in a lot of communities. Um, a really athletic family could say, we all play sports in this family. We all love sports in this family. And one of the children could say, well, I actually, the only thing I want to do is go play the cello right now. I I don't wanna go play on the soccer field. I, I can't say that because everybody in our family loves sports, but that's not entirely true because me, I don't love sports, I love theater. I love music. So I think that grouping people and saying, we all love blank, or we all love this, that's a group, that's a whole entire group being gaslit together. Um, especially if one person or this can happen to several people, doesn't, don't fit that criteria.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I am I'm thinking about family gatherings and in the example you use of the, your family going to a, um, gathering or one's family going to a gathering and telling relatives, well, in our family, we're all sports bonded. And the family who's receiving that information thinking, well, wait a minute, I thought your daughter plays the cello. Or, I thought there are music lovers in your family. Oh, no, no, no, no. We, we love sports. And so then that other person walks away and maybe it's not consequential for that person's life particularly, but walks away second guessing, wait a minute, I thought I knew that. No, no, no, you, you're mistaken. We're a sports family.

Dr. Robin Stern: So there are consequences. And there, and I think when you use the word to open up the, the mild form of gaslighting, they think that sometimes the consequences are mild. Like in the example that I just gave, because really, what does one relative care so much about? What's actually going on in your family? And even if they're vulnerable at that moment to the gas lighting, does it really matter that much? But as a child growing up in a family, even mild gas lighting can be consequential because you are still figuring out how to make sense of the world and can you trust what people say and can you trust when people are saying something to you and about you that they have your best interest in mind?

Hannah Husain: And I think that it's also a really strong example of emotional gaslighting to tell someone what they love. This family loves blank. If you're a part of that family, that means that you love whatever they're saying. This community loves blank. As a school, we love blank. There's so many different environments where a, we love blank can be a part of their, their slogan or just something that happens, something that is said. And if you're a part of that community and you don't feel as if you fit into that criteria, all of a sudden you feel like, well, if I'm a part of this community, then yes, I do love that. But it could be totally incorrect. You could totally not love that one thing that the entire community loves, and that's completely all right.

Dr. Robin Stern: But in that example then, just following it through, if your community tells you that, you know, we love sports or we love, um, we love to read, or we don't use our cell phones during the day or whatever it is, um, or at night or at dinner, uh, what's a consequence to you of hearing that? If you know that, um, you are not that person and yet you wanna belong to that family, is it that you second guess yourself? Is it that you don't, you no longer think, gee, I, you know, these are my people, or in the family, well maybe, maybe I don't belong in this family. Maybe I belong in another family. What are the consequences, do you think?

Hannah Husain: I think it's a very hard thing to be a part of a community where you don't feel a part of. And I think in most situations, someone who's a part of a community that they don't feel a part of will feel as if they need to change that one thing that will make them a part of that community, which is a really sad reality and a sad truth. But if a community says, we all love to read here, then the next day, this person who is loves math and loves doing math in their free time is might pick up a book and think, I need to make myself like this in order to be a part of this community. And especially at a younger age, that can be really detrimental because you might end up making yourself practice something that you aren't very fond of. And later in life it might take a lot of more time to realize what you are really interested in instead of being able to be in an environment where gaslighting quotes like that aren't being said. And you're able to find out what you're really interested in and who you are on your own account. Whereas if situations like that in a community happen, you will actually be struggling more to find yourself. And that's why it will impact a lot of things later in life because you May 2nd guess what you like.

Dr. Robin Stern: So these voices that you hear in your childhood, whether from your family or the groups you belong to, um, have the consequence then of you not being able to trust, being in contact with your own feelings, not being, uh, not being able to trust what you think. Like I thought I was smart, but my mom says I'm the pretty girl, not smart girl. Um, I thought I was working hard, but my dad says, you're so lazy, why don't you push harder? Uh, I thought people really loved being around me. I thought my family really loved being around me. But somebody says to you, come on, nobody's gonna love you. So that has consequences. Like you are not only feeling bad about yourself, but what you thought and what you know to be true about yourself, that you are working hard or that you are smart.

Dr. Robin Stern: Suddenly somebody's taking that certainty away from you and that has consequences later in life. So let's, let's pivot now, if you will, to social media. 'cause I know you wanted to talk a bit about that. And social media obviously, um, gives people the opportunity at large scale to be, uh, putting that information in a very definitive way or even, I'm, I'm thinking now, uh, and then I'll stop talking so you can share what you were thinking about. But I was thinking about the power of social influencers on social media. So why don't you take it from here since you are on social media a lot more than I am.

Hannah Husain: Well, I, I do have to say, I think media focused gaslighting is just the biggest gaslight for teens. It's social media is just, it does impact how we see ourselves and how we see the people around us every single day.

Dr. Robin Stern: How so?

Hannah Husain: Well, I think social influencer influencers are the biggest part of what affects us and affects how we think. For example, I've seen a number of health influencers, which I think are, uh, really, really important. And, and when it comes to gaslighting and social media, um, the kinds of posts that say, if you are feeling blank, it is because of blank. And when, when it's about health, a lot of people are desperate and they really want to believe anything they see. Um, something as small as, oh, I I want to grow my hair and if your hair is not growing here is why might be a post that's some sort of a unquote health influencer might post and, and lists these products. And all of a sudden this 14-year-old girl on Instagram is buying a bunch of products and putting things in her hair and thinking my hair will grow. Or small things like if you, I guess circling back to the tired and hungry, if you are hungry, it's probably because you are not sleeping eight plus hours. Um, which is not true. And for everyone, at least, I think everybody has a different reality. There's not one singular reality for everyone in any situation or circumstance. And it's just, it's really damaging because in reality, there's not one formula that will work for every single human being.

Dr. Robin Stern: And then what's the difference that you are seeing between trying to influence somebody's opinion and gaslight them?

Hannah Husain: Well, I think influencing could be here's a product you might like, and I think might is a really key word. It's a, it's a key word, I think might is a key word in posts such as those, I think phrasing such as if blank, it is because blank. Really strong statements that are tr statements that would be considered true or false. No wiggle room for anything, um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Where the gaslight is putting his ideas out with certainty, right? I know the reality,

Hannah Husain: The Gaslight is controlling the situation through those posts, um, stating that they, that they know the reality because of something. Um, most of the time we don't really get the insight into how they know this reality, but just scrolling on Instagram and, and seeing these things, we think all the time, okay, well I I've seen three of these posts now this must be legit. Um, when in reality the post before could have been taken from the post you saw before that. And it's just really damaging because as people say, we can't believe everything we see online or read online. But also when there's real life people behind the screen speaking to you through videos and you can see their faces, and it's almost as if it's a person to person gaslighting interaction. And they see say things such as you are feeling blank because you are doing blank, or because you are not doing blank.

Dr. Robin Stern: Do you have friends or have you had the experience yourself of feeling that kind of influenza, wow, this, this person who I trust is telling me that I'm feeling, let's just go back to the other example, hungry when maybe I'm really tired, like I, maybe I don't know what I'm really feeling. Maybe if this influencer is saying that, that's, I need to think about that. Have you felt that way? Or known people who have,

Hannah Husain: I did recently this fall see a video that says every Pakistani person will love this Pakistani restaurant on the lower East side. And it just took me by surprise that the words every were used, uh, the, the word every was used, um, that every single Pakistani person will love this restaurant on the lower East Side. I am Pakistani, I'm a half Pakistani, and I feel as though I'm, maybe I would love the restaurant on the lower East side. I love Pakistani food. But to say that you will love it if you are Pakistani in a way makes it sound like if you don't love it, you aren't a true Pakistani. And that's a small example. There are other ways that that is shown all over social media, and it's confusing because it can confuse people into thinking, well then do I not fit into that group of people if I don't enjoy this, if I don't find this thing interesting? Um, and to state that kind of to, and to create that kind of statement on social media to a group of people is very damaging, I'd say.

Dr. Robin Stern: Do you think that, uh, so thank you for sharing that story from your own experience, and do you think that you are more attuned to this kind of messaging since we've been working together? And I forgot to mention early on that you did write an article about this that was published yay. Um, this year and, uh, on team gaslighting. Has that helped you to filter out for yourself? Um, what is a message that, uh, is manipulative or, um, ver from a message that's not

Hannah Husain: Well, yes, most definitely. I'd say before I knew the depth of gaslighting, I I didn't know how to recognize it. And it's a perfectly normal thing to not know how to recognize it. I, I don't think I'll ever be perfect at knowing how to recognize gaslighting. I'm sure there've been times today where it's happened to me and I wasn't, I did not recognize it. I think that since I started getting very interested in the topic and, and since I published my article, I've been writing down my truth. I, I've been practicing writing down my truth to remind myself who I am, how I feel, and how these things can't be changed and impacted by other people's beliefs. And I think I'm really fortunate enough to have a support system. I know that my mother will always reins store my confidence if I say, Hey, mom, I just actually, I said to this girl today that blank, and, and she told me that I felt blank.

Hannah Husain: And my mom will say, well, I, I don't know Hannah. I I think you're right on this one. I don't think that you need to be listening to that. Or also, sometimes she could say, no, I think that, I think that that might be right and you need to just think about your opinion and how you feel, and maybe you were tired or maybe something happened. Um, but I think a support system is really important because at the end of the day, we're human and we can't always reins store our confidence. But writing down your truths and writing down my truths specifically has been really helpful for me.

Dr. Robin Stern: I love that as a, um, as a strategy to keep yourself grounded in your truths. Not just that you're writing down specific truths, um, that can help you with a specific situation, but that you get in the habit of reflecting on your truth, which means you're checking in with yourself and do I, what do I feel? What do I think? And, and social support is another really important, um, uh, prevention against or way to guard, against being gaslighted. When you can turn to somebody who knows you and say, well, I was thinking this. Well, that doesn't sound like you Hannah, or That does sound like you Hannah. But maybe take a minute and think more deeply about that.

Hannah Husain: Yes, I think

Dr. Robin Stern: Really That's great. That's really great. What else, besides writing your truths,

Hannah Husain: I think hearing the words you know best when it comes to your own emotions. If my mom were to tell me, Hannah, that sounds like a really unfortunate situation that you were in today with this girl or this person that you spoke to about your feelings and they told you you didn't feel that way. I agree with them, but you know best about how you feel. Even if your support system doesn't agree with you at times, this can, this can be the reality for them to be able to say, you know, best about how you feel, that is already reins restoring your confidence because it's saying, you know how you feel better than any of us do.

Dr. Robin Stern: And can you say that to yourself? Can that be an ongoing mantra? Do, is it an ongoing mantra for you?

Hannah Husain: Yes. So that is one of the things that I do when I'm writing down my truths. I say, these are the things that I feel and I know myself best and I know how I feel. Um, and I think that that's really an important step in writing down your own truths and believing your own truths.

Dr. Robin Stern: Interesting. And have you talked at home with your mom and, and with your family about gaslighting and what do they have to say about it?

Hannah Husain: Yes. I actually mentioned the Tooth fairy example to my family, and they found it really silly that that could be an example of gaslighting because of the, the, I guess surrounding idea that gaslighting is always intentional. Um, and that it's always, it's always mal intended as well. But my parents thought, oh, I guess what you're saying does make sense. I mean, we were explaining to you that you were wrong and that what you thought which was correct was incorrect, and that there was a ferry placing $1 bills under your pillow. Um, every couple times you lost your teeth. I mean, it's, it's a silly concept, but they, it took them to understand what unintentional gaslighting was, to really understand that that's a very real and true example.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. That they didn't set out to manipulate you, uh, well maybe unconsciously manipulate you, but for, um, as we were saying socially acceptable, um, it's Christmas for your joy, right? They were doing it to uplift you, to give you some fun in your life, to perpetuate a myth that makes people happy we're told. Right? And that that's the other piece of the leftover, um, maybe, uh, ghost of gaslighting, that all these things are supposed to make you happy. Do they make you happy? Like, did it make you happy to think about Santa Claus and then find out that there is no Santa Claus or the there tooth fairy? Find out that it's your mom , they make you dollar bills. Did that make you happy?

Hannah Husain: Yes, exactly. That's the, that's the thing that I've had to think about is it did those, I remember those memories with just only, I only associate the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus with happy memories. And so although it was gaslighting, it was unintentional and,

Dr. Robin Stern: Or maybe, maybe it was intentional, but nobody knew it was gaslighting, right? So it was intentional to have you believe something that isn't really true. But the gaslighting piece where your, the attempt to undermine your thinking was only very specifically, um, the, the line, the circle around it was very specific. It's the tooth fairy. But we want you to think clearly about school, and we want you to think clearly about your friendships, and we want you to think clearly about who you are, but not the tooth fairy,

Hannah Husain: Right? Mild examples, but they do build up.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I love talking to you about this, and I, and I, um, admire that at such a young age, you are taking on concepts that really have a lot of consequence in, uh, in people's lives and can be very serious. And, and at the same time, we can recognize that parents, um, who are human beings and sometimes make a mistake and just use gaslighting to get their way, like in the supermarket, no, I don't wanna buy those cookies for that child right now, so I'm gonna tell him that he doesn't really want them two having fun with your kids. No, it's Christmas. There is, there is Santa Claus two really a destructive kinds of gaslighting, which we didn't really talk very much about, but that's the, some of the consequences of the gaslighting that we were talking about anyway, but the destructive cast lighting that we did mention, like you are not the smart one, you know, you are the pretty one or, um, maybe it's meant as a compliment on, on the one hand, but it also is meant as you're not very smart or other kinds of things, you're worthless and everybody knows it.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm reading right now for my book, you're Too Loud. It is not ladylike to have a loud voice. Um, uh, and examples of your self-talk to counter that it's true. I do have a loud voice and I like that, or in certain situations that works for me. Um, or it's true. I don't really like to, uh, work 24 7, and that's okay with me because you don't have to, to get ahead, or it is not true. I do like to work 24 7 and in fact I do that every day, or it's not true. I'm not a nightmare of a child. Those kinds of things. So when there are serious words and accusations, we can counter them in our own mind or confront the gaslight if it's safe. And, um, otherwise, when gaslighting is meant to be playful and fun, maybe we can, if we know that it's a manipulation in our own interest, we can hold it as fun.

Dr. Robin Stern: And if it's part of our childhood that has good memories, we can forgive our parents for that little bit of gaslighting. And I would just like to, to, uh, end with a caution that, um, social media is wonderful on the one hand, but as Hannah said, we are open to the influences of powerful people in person and online. And when all of our friends are, are following a social influencer, and that social influencer is saying things that we don't initially feel line up with who we are, take a step back and make sure if you're going to follow their advice or their, um, modeling of using products or their insistence on a product being fabulous, that it does line up with who you are and claim your reality each and every time. So thank you for returning as a guest and I hope that you'll continue to return as you move forward in your life.

Dr. Robin Stern: And I hope you'll continue to write maybe this time about writing your truths. Thank you, Dr. Stern, and thank you all for listening to Hannah and um, to tuning in again to the Gaslight Effect Podcast, and I'll see you next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCartan and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.