Podcast Player Episode 031

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and Senior Advisor to the director at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really excited today because my colleague and dear friend Mark Bracket is with us. Professor Dr. Marc Bracket is with us. Marc is the founder and director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, um, where I also work as his senior advisor these days. And Mark is a professor at the Child Study Center at Yale University and a longtime devotee of looking at emotions. So today we're gonna be talking about a little bit about Mark, mark, a little bit about your history and how you've come to gaslighting, how you've come to know gaslighting intimately, and, um, some of the work that we have recently done, writing about gaslighting together on families and relationships and what is gaslighting and what is it not. And, um, some of the work that we are doing now, hoping to, uh, make more popular. The idea that gaslighting is not one size fits all, that there are lesser, um, less toxic ways of gaslighting, or more subtle ways of gaslighting and soul, destroying ways of gaslighting. So all of that I look forward to today. So Mark. Hi.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Hi, Robin.

Dr. Robin Stern: So Marc, how are you feeling today?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Well, lemme think about that. So today I am feeling, I thought this was gonna be video, so I like did my hair and I shaved today and Well, you look

Dr. Robin Stern: Great. Anyway,

Dr. Marc Brackett: So I'm feeling, I'm feeling relieved that, um, I can just like let my hair down, which doesn't happen. 'cause I have very thick, it doesn't go down . Um, but, um, I'm excited to talk with you about this because, you know, this has been something that you've been passionate about and dedicated a lot of your life to for over now 20 years probably. And, um, I've only recently come to kind of collaborate with you, you know, on translating it, making the connection to emotional intelligence more specific. And so I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you. And I'm excited about that too. I remember actually the first time that we talked together in public about gaslighting. We were in a casino in, um, New Jersey where we were doing a training on emotional intelligence. And you said, and Mrs. Robin Stern, and she just wrote a book on gaslighting. And since that time, really my work on gaslighting has, uh, been alongside of my work and our work at the center. But I look forward to making more of a connection, especially as you are moving into self-regulation, which is of course a big piece of what happens during gas lighting or the dysregulation and how to get out of it. So just starting at the beginning, um, how, what's your experience with gaslighting personally?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah, I mean the, the more I've thought about it, the more I have realized, you know, um, like many people, I have also been a victim of gaslighting. And some of it was very close to home because it was by my parents. Um, you know, as you know, and the world knows, 'cause I'm not in the closet, you know, I'm a gay guy. And, um, I'm also a, a, a survivor of pretty intense sexual abuse as a child. And, um, and I share that specifically in relation to gaslighting because when I was a teenager, my, uh, I was questioning my sexual orientation and my identity. And I think just because of my parents' upbringing and their fears about having a gay son, um, in many ways they were gaslight because they would say things like, no, you're not really gay. You just think you are because of what happened to you as a child. You're making this false connection, you know, between, um, you know, and I don't even actually, the more I think about it, the more distorted that is also also. But, um, nevertheless, they were making the connection that because I was a victim of, of abuse by a male perpetrator, um, that, that somehow another was affecting my perceptions about my sexual orientation. And, um, not cool, you know, just to be frank, you know, because

Dr. Robin Stern: Did you believe them?

Dr. Marc Brackett: I did. I mean, I was 16, 17 years old and like, I didn't have a PhD in emotional intelligence. You know, I was a very insecure, scared, you know, kid who had a lot of bullying, um, who probably knew his interest in and, and being attracted to, um, men, you know, at a young age and not five years old, but like, by the time I was in high school, I was, I knew I was a gay guy. I just, where I grew up, it wasn't something that was, um, it was taboo. I mean, truthfully, you know, I laugh about this now and it's not anything to really laugh about, but the only exposure I had to gay men growing up was my mother's hairdresser, you know, who was a very flamboyant, suburban New Jersey guy who my family loved. But he was, you know, Teddy was Teddy and he had this big personality and he was very flamboyant.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And I also am an introvert who's not flamboyant. Um, and so like, I never, like, that's, you know, I never really, and then I remember I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but being like 18 and I had my license and I drove to New York City and I drove to this gay bar, and I'm like, oh, wow. There's like Wall Street executives who are gay , there's football players who are gay. And then I realized, you know, like I could be who I was, but, and I am who I am, but the world around me in that particular era, which is the 1980s, um, you know, made me question it. And I think that's where the gaslighting piece comes in, because I was second guessing my identity based on other people trying to define it for me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And when did you realize that, wait a minute, no, they're not right. I know who I am. How did that

Dr. Marc Brackett: Happen? I don't, I don't actually think I ever made that connection, um, until recently, to be honest. Like that specific connection about gaslighting, like the, the manipulative nature of, of, um, you know, and by the way, as strange that my sound, my parents loved me and they had good intentions for me. They were probably afraid for me back in the eighties, you know, you know, that they were gonna have a kid who was gonna have problems because he was gay. And they're, it was like almost protecting me, protecting them. I'm,

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So there was, there was no malevolence in them saying, no, this is why. This is what's really going on. You're not really gay, you just have this,

Dr. Marc Brackett: Well, there I, no, I actually, there was malevolence, not intentional malevolence,

Dr. Robin Stern: Unintentional,

Dr. Marc Brackett: Unintentional malevolence because it did mess with my brain, and it did mess with my self-esteem, and it did mess with the decisions I made. I wasn't free or I didn't feel free to be my true self. So I had girlfriends and I had good relationships with women. Um, and, but, um, I, um, it just did, it felt like being my true self wasn't an option because A, it was socially not that acceptable. And b you know, maybe I was just messed up because of my abuse and that maybe I needed to fix myself, um, to, to be quote unquote normal.

Dr. Robin Stern: But it's, it's interesting that you, that you corrected me and said, well, no, it was malevolence because it sounded like when you were first describing it, that it was really out of their fear, out of their fear of your not having good life or making choices that wouldn't lead you to good places. And, um, and do you think that that's can be malevolent?

Dr. Marc Brackett: I do. Because when you're playing around with someone else's reality, right? It, um, and making someone doubt themselves and not really providing the condition for them to be their true self, that's messed up.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's malevolent.

Dr. Marc Brackett: It is. It's not like, you know, it wasn't as if they were beating me up and punishing me, and, you know, that that's a whole different thing. But nevertheless, they weren't listening.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett: You know, or, and they were trying to re they were trying to redirect and redirect me in a way that was, um, not aligned with who I kind of knew I was.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So for parents listening, we, and I'm a parent as well, we all can inadvertently, uh, undermine our children's confidence in their reality. And that's not okay, even if it's coming from our fear or anxiety. Certainly there have been a lot of parents, myself included, who have said things to their children, like, I can't think of an example off hand right now, but, um, try to prevent them from going places or, uh, influence them about friendships or even choices they're making based on my anxiety or their parents' own anxiety. And what you don't realize in that moment is exactly what you're talking about, that it isn't. Okay. Because then what happens is a consequence is not, maybe your child doesn't do that thing that you were afraid they would do. Well, maybe they do, but long term with accumulated moments of that kind of second guessing your child, your child second guesses themself, right?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. I mean, and it just, it also just creates all weird kinds of stuff in terms of secrecy and hiding and, you know, poor hygiene. You know, it just, I can't even, I can just list out, you know, the things that happen and, and it doesn't bring you closer. It makes you more distant because you start realizing over time that I can't actually be my true self. And so you start being dishonest, you start kind of drifting away. Um, and I think, you know, part of where I think we might go with this is, okay, so how does that relate to emotional intelligence? Well, and from my perspective, you know, a they're not reading me very carefully, right? Mm-Hmm. , it's, there's about, there's a lot of self-absorption in that particular relationship, right? Because it's all about what I want from my son, not what I'm noticing and what I'm hearing, you know, exactly from my son.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Mm-Hmm. . But the other piece of it is, is the inability to deal with feelings. And the, um, you know, that the, the fear that my parents had about who I was was unbearable. And so their regulation strategy was to make my reality, the reality they wanted for them selves. And, um, and that's where I think it's kind of interesting in terms of, um, self-awareness in terms of, you know, the feelings that you're having when, if you're a parent, when your kids are becoming something that maybe you didn't, that, you know, that's not exactly what you wanted for them. Um, and how do you, how do you manage that? Um, and, you know, just to be more kind of, um, specific here, you know, when I reflect on my parents' upbringing, you know, and I didn't, I didn't have a close relationship with either of my grandparents from either side, but I heard stories and I knew them from, you know, the way my parents described them. And, you know, my father was burned by his father with cigarettes. You know, he grew up in New York City, um, poor, very, very poor. Um, I think all of my father's brothers died of drug addiction by the time they were 40 or 50 years old. Um, and so my father had made it, and I think that he was afraid that his son wouldn't make it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, may, he may have made it in the world, but he certainly didn't make it in terms of being emotionally no intelligent and regulating his emotions.

Dr. Marc Brackett: But my fa I think my father's perception was that he escaped his dysfunction. Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And had now the, the, you know, the good life living in New Jersey and that, you know, the, from what he was exposed to as a kid, you know, just to give you an example of like my father's mindset about homosexuality, you know, I remember even in, I forget it was high school or college, you know, he said, you know, son, I used to beat kids up. Like you, that's, um, that's, you know, I remember thinking to myself, and that's, you know, that's called, you know, parent child bonding 1 0 1 . But, um, that, you know, is all fear-based. And, um, it's like, why is anybody beating anybody up? Right? It's like, why, why don't we beat people up? It's not for any other reason other than fear and, you know, things of that nature

Dr. Robin Stern: And inability to deal with the feeler, to your point. Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Um, and then my mother, who, you know, all by the way, my father was a good guy. He was actually highly, um, motivated to engage in self-help and seek therapy that happened after I went to college. And then, you know, my mom, who, you know, was wonderful too, in many ways. Just, she was an anxious mess. You know, she just, and you know, she was, I remember just locking herself in her room all the time, you know, not wanting to engage, and then kind of when she got triggered, she would kind of get angry and react. And so my point here is that neither of my parents had an emotion education. So expectations of their ability to understand my feelings, manage their own feelings, and co-regulate my feelings, that's a lot to ask for someone who, you know, as you know, was raised by wolves.

Dr. Robin Stern: And wouldn't it be incredible if, if we as young people had all that insight to bring to bear on our, the way our parents are raising us? But, you know, after listening to your story, of course, I, if I didn't know you, I would say, or I would ask, well, did your parents' dysfunction lead you to your choice of profession? And while it didn't lead you to, it certainly set you on a path that led you through your isolation from them. And your having all those feelings and not being able to name those feelings at that time and have anyone to bond with them set you off on this path. Mm-Hmm. where you did discover your calling and your passion. Can you tell that story?

Dr. Marc Brackett: What do you mean? Can I tell that story of how, you know, say more of

Dr. Robin Stern: How well, of how this having happened with your parents, this undermining of you and your then Mm-Hmm. resulting resultant, um, uh, feeling alienated from them not being able to talk with them opened, started you on a path of then ultimately meeting Uncle Marvin and talking Mm-Hmm. talking to him and then finding your passion.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. Well, this conversation is, you know, opening me up to thinking about things that I haven't thought about in a while. Um, which by the way, may not be a good thing right now, but I'm gonna . But I know that's where you to, it's always a

Dr. Robin Stern: Good thing. Go Robin. It's a good thing, .

Dr. Marc Brackett: Um, because I, you know, I'm, I'm reflecting on, you know, so I was, you know, using gender stereotypes more feminine than masculine, you know, as a child. And, um, you know, and I was, I had a lot of bullying growing up, so there was a abuse from when I was like five to 10 years old. And then there was bullying from like 10 years old to, you know, honestly, probably until I was maybe a junior in high school. And so it's a long, it's a long period of your life, right? It's so sad. Have having people like try to tear you down. Mm-Hmm. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And, but I remember, you know, like being made fun of for, you know, I remember something really, you know, I haven't thought about this in a long time, but when I was in sixth grade, it was when like fashion jeans came out. It was like the DoorDash and Sergio Lente. You remember that? Uh, if you're uhhuh , if you're in your forties and fifties or fifties and sixties, you might know what I'm talking about. And so I remember, like here I was, I was the 12 year old kid, you know, I had to have those designer jeans, and they were like, expensive and we didn't have a lot of money, but like, I pushed and I pushed and I pushed, and I remember, um, wearing them to school and I just got them, you know, people just ripped me up for that. 'cause it was only girls, you know, wore Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Designer jeans. They weren't like a thing we hadn't made that, you know, transition to Yeah. Mm-Hmm. To boys wearing them. And I remember, you know, and, and the only reason why I'm, I'm thinking about all these instances is that, um, well, we're talking about gaslighting. And so I, even the manipulation there, you know, in terms of, uh, like people forcing an identity on me as being too feminine, you know, and then starting to really get defensive about that. But then kind of seeing that, and then I remember, you know, my father's 50th birthday party, you know, I was however old, I was a teenager, and I remember, um, I had an eating disorder and I was very, very thin. And I remember they recorded it with a video. And I remember watching that video, you know, 'cause you know, you watch it, you know, the month later, whatever, with your family. And I just remember like hating myself, you know, for my physical appearance, for like, the way I walked. It was like, I was feminine and that was gross. You know? And like, that whole way of thinking is just awful.

Dr. Robin Stern: You took on their voices.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. Right. And it's just awful. Um, that, you know, as I've said, and you know, we've talked about this before, you know, so much of our negative self-talk is as a result of other people defining who we are for us. Right. You just start believing. It becomes, if all that's all you hear, you start seeing it, even if it's not there. Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's gaslighting yourself.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. And then, you know, to just make this, to like, you know, keep the stew adding more meat to the stew , you know, I got involved in the martial arts, which was a big deal for me, you know, and I was, it was, that was a real complex experience for me because here I was, you know, knowing I was a gay teenager, um, being perceived by many people as being feminine. And now I'm gonna be like a tough guy. Get on my black belt. Like, that was a whole weird thing. But even in the martial arts, I had a tough time. I had a really tough time. And, you know, I happened to become one of the most highly skilled people in the martial arts. Yeah. Ending up with a fifth degree black belt. But I remember on that journey, um, because I'm achievement oriented, I'm, you know, I'm always seeking, this is something, you know, different than I'm gonna speak about now in terms of like, I'm always someone who is like accomplishment oriented and self-improvement oriented.

Dr. Marc Brackett: We're gonna make this better. Like with our program, right? With ruler, we've been working on this for 25 years, and we're endlessly innovating to make it better, because that's just the way we are. And so I was like that in the martial arts because in my first two teachers, they were good, but they weren't amazing. And then I got exposed to like, amazing teachers. And then my, the teachers who I studied with for four years, who I adored and had a good relationship with, because I decided to study with someone else, they started gaslighting me. Like, who do you think you are? And it, they, they, they, you're, you're, you're not, you know, loyal and you're not this, and it's like, it's none of that. It's just that the truth is, these other teachers are actually, they can take me to another level in my training, and I really wanna learn from them. It doesn't mean I don't like you anymore. It just means that I've reached my, I've reached, you know, a level,

Dr. Robin Stern: So you needed more and other, and they put you down for

Dr. Marc Brackett: It. They, they wanted to hold me back.

Dr. Robin Stern: They wanted to hold you back. And they did it by trying to manipulate, by trying to tell you there's something wrong with you. That you were bad, you were not loyal. You were not dedicated.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Oh, it got terrible. There was gossiping, there was more bullying came into my life at that point, that the sons and friends of the karate instructors started like bullying me on the streets and harassing me. They even, I had a, like, everybody who got their black belt had a name plate that would like go up on the wall. What they did is they turned my nameplate upside down. You know, it was like I was a dishonor. And I, oh, that's so horrible. Terrible. And, um, you know, I'm lucky that I have, I don't know where my self-esteem has come from, actually . It just feels like my whole life has been trying people trying to like, you know, punch it out of me. Well,

Dr. Robin Stern: Is that achievement orientation, you're trying to get more of it, get more,

Dr. Marc Brackett: I guess so, yeah. I'm gonna, yikes. Um, but nevertheless, you know, I'm blessed that I turned out to be healthy. I've been with my husband now partner for 30 years and, you know, feel very fortunate. But, um, it's a lot of work, you know, because you're always, um, I think, you know, going back to our work on emotional intelligence, you know, I got lucky also that I studied Zen Buddhism and, um, obviously got a degree in psychology. But, you know, I really attribute a lot of my thinking and my growth to the concepts that I learned with my Zen teacher here in New York. And in terms of just the way the mind develops and, you know, one exercise, you know, was like, imagine your parents when they were five years old, you know, what were they like then? Do you think their intention was to harm you and to manipulate your thinking?

Dr. Marc Brackett: And then you start realizing is, you know, they were nurtured in a way, you know, that led to who they became. Um, and you start having a different relationship with that. You know, you know, I, I realized that I spent, IM 54, I spent up until I was probably 40, maybe 45, um, with a lot of anger and a lot of blame. And, um, and I think I'm grateful that I've been a lot of, you know, work on myself. And I don't feel that way anymore. Um, I don't feel grateful for my childhood, that's for sure. However, I feel like I, um, have the power to be who I wanna be.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and there was some teaching along the way that you became a very good student of, and, and I wonder if we can go back and connect the dots a little bit from your parents and how you were alienated from them, and then Uncle Marvin came into your life Mm-Hmm. . And how that led you to, to be involved with emotions as a career and then ultimately to found with me. And I'm so grateful and proud and happy about that. Um, the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Mm-Hmm. .

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. So, you know, there're defining moments in our lives and people in our lives. And so my uncle Marvin, who, you know, I dedicate my book to, you know, the concept permission to feel is came from, come from, came from him. Because, you know, I didn't talk about my abuse for five years. Um, I think mostly because of the modeling at home. It was basically toughen up or I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown. So don't, you know, you don't talk to people who are gonna tell you to toughen up or have a nervous breakdown. You just keep it inside. But Uncle Marvin was different. I mean, when I think about, you know, the, how fortunate I was, you know, there was a lot of misfortune. But when I think about how fortunate I was that at 11 years old, 12 years old, I had an uncle who was this crazy character in the Catskill Mountains, who was a musician by night and a teacher by day who happened to be developing a curriculum to teach kids about their feelings.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Who happened to then live in my house, one that summer when I was around 11, who was, he was going for his master's degree. And who, um, started practicing the techniques he was developing with me as his nephew in the backyard, where we would have these really intense conversations around words like alienation and alienation and despair and commitment. And then I literally have a very strong memory of like him asking me to type up, I was taking, typing in middle school, and I would type up his lessons and there would be this like, feeling word alienation means to feel left out and sad to not belong. You know, example in the real world example here, example in a text that he was teaching in history. And then we would talk about these concepts. And in many ways, that's what helped me to heal, because I realized quickly that my Uncle Marvin was that trusting adult that I could be my true self with.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And that's when I spoke to him and share with him about my abuse, which by the way, was enormously helpful. But one of the other problems, and you know this, but it's relevant, is that stupidly I wanted public television about my abuse, which then backfired again, which resulted in more bullying. Because here I was this 12 year old on public television trying to be a, you know, a hero. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And then what happened is that basically parents and teachers all watched me on the news, but they were freaked out about it and didn't know how to talk to me about it. So then it led to really just weird relationship with teachers and with my friends parents, you know, I lost a lot of friends because of that. 'cause the parents were like, yeah, you know, we don't wanna marks, you know, damaged goods kind of thing.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. But anyway, uncle Marvin, you know, had a really big influence on me, and interesting. It was in period. So that early period, then he went home to the Catskills, and I, you know, got things started getting a little better for me in high school. And then, um, I started becoming a better student. I had a little bit, you know, the karate, really, the martial arts helped a lot in the beginning. Um, and then I went to college and that's when, you know, it really became clear about who I was and, you know, in terms of my sexual orientation. Um, and I was very anxious and depressed in college. And then in therapy, like, it was, you know, it was 9 21 and 2223 trying to figure out my life in therapy. That was when the kind of this field of emotional intelligence was really starting. And I didn't know about the scientist, Jack and Peter, you know, Peter Salate, Yale, and Jack Mayer at UNH. But I had read the popular books. And then from that, I, um, you know, looked at the references and found that there was these two scientists that actually wrote the theory. And I had the chutzpah to call them both. And they both agreed to meet with me. And I had lunch with both of them. I did not have the academic background to get into Yale, um, as a, uh, graduate student. Funny

Dr. Robin Stern: To think about that now.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Right. . I know. Uh, but I wasn't, I wouldn't, I would've, I would've, I don't think I was psychologically or academically ready for that kind of environment, you know? Now I've been a professor for 20 years. So it's, it's fascinating to think back. I mean, I think the big message for me and for everyone is that, um, life continues and we all grow and develop and what you're, what you're not ready for at one developmental period, you know, you can be ready for now. And, um, anyway, so then I pull Uncle Marvin out of retirement and, uh, and there goes the beginning of ruler, you know, we started working on it. And gosh, I have the most amazing memories of us sitting in Barnes and Nobles and Dunking Donuts and just talking about his curriculum when he was teaching. And me, you know, thinking I already knew everything about psychology and emotions, which, you know, I think I know, of course, you know, the more you know, the less you know. Right. But, um, anyhow, I've been talking a lot, so lemme stop there,

Dr. Robin Stern: . So a a couple of things that one, that when you said, like, think about the possibility of you're meeting Uncle Marvin after these things had happened and or, um, really talking with him. And so sometimes I, I think it's important to remember that maybe the universe does have a plan for us as much as we are self-determined. There are certain kinds of, certain moments in your life, those defining moments where you think, wow, amazing.

Dr. Marc Brackett: It's true. I mean, I, I still, you know, I'm not someone that like, this is, you know, you know, I talk to people like you in private, I shared a little bit, you know, in my book. But even my book, it's like three paragraphs that are really about my childhood.

Dr. Robin Stern: I wanna make sure that we have time to get to you, um, for me to introduce your book and for you to talk a little bit about your book and where to find you. Sure. But before we go there, I do wanna get into a little bit of, um, what, how can emotional intelligence and skillfully being emotionally intelligent or being emotionally skilled, help people with gaslighting? What's your immediate response to that?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Well, my immediate response is that emotional intelligence is a set of skills that can prevent gaslighting from happening. Meaning that if we develop, if we do the work that we all do together in schools and early on, and help children identify their emotions and understand other people's perspectives and be good listeners, and have strategies to deal with their feelings and understand the impact of meanness and cruelty on people's brain development and behavior, right. That there's gonna be just less of it happening because there's gonna be more empathy and compassion, which we need a lot of in our world. Um, so that's, I think, one piece of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Agree with that.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And then the second piece of it is, you know, as an adult now when I feel like I'm in situations where I'm being gaslighted or gaslit, I dunno which is the right way to say it. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: There is no right way. Okay, good. Both

Dr. Marc Brackett: Are good. Good. Thank you. Um, that I really am fortunate, although because of my history, it's still, I still get triggered. I still get activated. I still second guess, but I'm now cognitively able to pause and breathe and ask myself some serious questions around that relationship. Like, is, is this something that I said or did, um, or is this kind of the other person's problem? And they're trying to push that on me? And obviously sometimes there's a fine line. 'cause we're, you know, we're, we are, um, we're tangled in relationships, however, you know, from what I've learned from you about gaslighting, because it's manipulative. Right. And that's a core of gaslighting, right? It's not just bullying, right. It's bullying with an intention to mess up the way you see things. Mm-Hmm, that the ability like having, you know, more developed emotional intelligence skills, I'm able to kind of like disentangle and parse things out and, and like sit back and ask myself questions like, okay, wait a minute here, is this really me?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Or is this the other person? And, and coming to the realization that I'm not crazy, that I don't deserve to be treated this way, that no one deserves to be treated that way. Um, it really is helpful for managing it. And I think, you know, it's funny we're talking about this because as you know, I'm writing another book now, and one of the things that I realized, and as I was writing just this last week for myself, like, when I am feeling, um, stressed out about writing the book, which is very stressful, um, or, you know, something work related that's I'm in control of, I can, I can regulate pretty well. Like, I'll shut my computer for 15 minutes. I'll go take a walk, I'll call you, I'll call a friend, I'll talk about it. I will, whatever, go to yoga. Um, but when it involves other people that I don't have control over the way they see things and the way they operate, and, and especially it's people who are gas lighters or who have, you know, mal intention.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Mm-Hmm. , I find it really hard. And I'm still, I'm trying to figure out how to elevate my emotion regulation ability in that context, because it's like, sometimes it's, I mean, it is unfathomable that someone is saying things about you or doing something, you know, you can't control it and it's affecting you. And so, like, how do you regulate that? How do you accept the reality that you have no, that you can't control the world around you? You know? And I'm a, I'm like a, you know, I'm just like a, you know, a, a successful professor, but I think about people like Michelle Obama, you know, and other celebrity people who are celebrities, you know, and how this is that they have to, I mean, gosh, you know, it's no wonder so many people crumble, you know? Um, when you have a force around you that has a perspective about you that you can't control that's affecting the way you live your life.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So, yeah, we talk all the time about how our emotions impact us, but then when we have other people who are big and important in our lives, or in our minds affecting our emotions, then we're trying to deal with them and also our emotions at the same time. Yeah. And that's a really big piece of what keeps people stuck in gaslighting relationships, that it, you described it really well, that like, you just can't stand it, that that person thinks that of you. So in gaslighting relationships, the impulses to defend

Dr. Marc Brackett: And tries to convince other people that's,

Dr. Robin Stern: And tries to convince other people, and you, and you and you over and over again, and, and the, the impulse to defend yourself and the inability just to move away, like, okay, that's them. It's not possible to do that when you're going crazy because you can't stand it. So that piece, that which is so, so in need of effective and helpful regulation in that moment is so elusive to so many people. Even those of us who are experienced.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Well, it's why social relations, you know, relationships matter. And I, you know, because I'm lucky that I have people like you and other friends in my life who I thank you, thank you, but who, um, who I trust in terms of your take on things. Mm-Hmm. . And so when you're in those moments or in those relationships where that's happening to you, you can go to that person and say like, am I really crazy? Or is this just really messed up? You know, and get the, you know, the, the confirmation that you're not crazy, you know, and, and

Dr. Robin Stern: That, and that, and certainly I feel that way is with you as well, that is very confirming. And that in and of itself is a great regulation strategy when

Dr. Marc Brackett: You, I mean, it's don't how I would survive without that. Um, again, the personal stuff, the work stuff, um, and by the way, it's not just gaslighting. It's like even with my partner, my husband, 30 years, you know, if we get into an argument or we're not, you know, things are like a little tense. Um, I ruminate and I perseverate and I go into, you know, catastrophizing and I need, I, I, that's where I really need social support to talk through it. Whereas, um, other things, you know, I use different strategies and this is why, you know, I think helping people, um, develop strategies, you know, to regulate their emotions is so important. But it's not like a workshop. It's like life's work.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's life's work for all of us. So this is a good segue and the time, uh, lets us know that we need to do this now. Okay. Um, to, you're talking about your books, first of all, um, I recommend to everyone listening to this podcast, if you have not read Permission to Feel, please read it. It is beautifully written, um, completely accessible, funny, and, um, and very real about Mark's journey to developing his career and, and our center founding our Center for Emotional Intelligence. And it's all about our work, all about the skills of emotional intelligence and the tools and strategies. And then the second book, which is Dealing with Feelings, is a deeper dive. And you're working on it now, and you'll tell us when it's gonna be released, but a deeper dive into, um, regulation, everything we're just talking about now. So where can people find you and say a little bit more about your book?

Dr. Marc Brackett: Sure. Well, I think the concept of permission to feel is, is super important because in many ways related to gaslighting, I wasn't given permission to feel safe and comfortable in my own skin as a kid, you know, and, and when I was, you know, talking about my sexual orientation, that's my parents in that moment, you know, they're pulling me out of my feelings, like of, of hope for, you know, you know, of able to be, uh, me being able to express my true self. And so I, I see that direct length, you know, in terms of permission to feel and gaslighting, because the gas lighter is manipulating you and not giving you the permission to be your true self. And the, um, but it's the beginning. You know, I, the reason why I think permission to feel is so important is that in society, we, we get overly focused on outcomes.

Dr. Marc Brackett: We get overly focused on like, if you're emotionally intelligent, you're gonna make more money. Or if you're emotionally intelligent, you know, you're gonna, you know, have these things in life. But yet, you know, as we've talked about and are gonna be writing about like the, um, the implementation of these skills is really poor, that like, it's not becoming a permanent part of education and workplace kind of, um, professional learning. And so, I, I, I say that because, um, I think it starts with permission to feel that we need to take a step back and not be so much focused, so focused on developing the skills and ask ourselves, am I a parent? Am I a spouse? Am I a lover, a friend, a colleague, a boss who creates the conditions for other people to be their true selves? And do I give myself the permission to have feelings? So that attitudinal piece has to come first. And then once we open the doors to, there's no such thing as a bad feeling, and I'm justified for being angry or anxious or overwhelmed or whatever it is. Or happy, by the way. 'cause one of the things I'm working on is giving myself permission to be happy. 'cause I, you know, it's another whole thing. We won't get into that. Now I realize that I need to spend more time being in the

Dr. Robin Stern: Yellow

Dr. Marc Brackett: Green quadrant. Exactly. But, um, anyhow, um, then we can start thinking about the skills and strive to be as I call them, emotion scientists as opposed to emotion judges. So curious explorers as opposed to critical judges. Then we can start becoming really paying attention to how am I feeling? How you're feeling? What's causing those feelings? What are the words? Can I express them in healthy ways? What's my strategies for regulating them? Um, and I think just by shifting the attitudes, developing the skills that leads to, um, changes, you know, in relationships, decisions, performance. And so that's what promotion to feel as a book is about. And it, it does showcase, I think the work that we've done in schools together and, you know, our team at the center around that. Um, if we wanna make a difference in children's lives, you can't have the three 30 to four 30 workshop once a year about emotional intelligence, right? That we've gotta think about creating emotionally intelligent systems, which means, you know, in the school context, it's leaders, teachers, students and families, a common language, everyone on the bus thinking about the value and importance of these skills and working on them themselves and supporting other people and developing them.

Dr. Robin Stern: So how do adult, how do adults work on these skills? They're no longer in school and they didn't have the benefit.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Yeah. They gotta read. Um, and maybe reread and then reread again and, and

Dr. Robin Stern: Reread and practice.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And also, you know, we're co-creators of an amazing app, you know, that, uh, we developed with Ben Silverman, who is the co-founder of Pinterest, and a team, um, that has worked on this How we Feel project, which is, you know, a tool that helps people build emotional self-awareness. Um, the good news, and I know that we have to end soon, Robin, is that as we always say, self-awareness is a gift. So if, if anything that we talked about today rings a bell with people who are listening, or you relate to it through your own experiences, or have an epiphany, or just an insight, right? That's great. You know, I, I've learned from doing this podcast with you. Of course we're going to therapy now tonight, , but, um, and more seriously, um, like that's the first step is like, I've been emotionally stuck or not, or I've been in a, I'm, I'm not, I'm inhibited. I'm not comfortable. Like, let me ask myself questions about that. Why?

Dr. Robin Stern: Well look at it a different way. Yeah. Just take a different viewpoint.

Dr. Marc Brackett: And I think very importantly, um, unlike me trying to learn a foreign language now in my fifties, especially, you know, a complex language, say like Chinese or Korean or Arabic, um, you know, research would show that the areas of our brain responsible for that kind of intonation, you know, that's, that the sounds that you know, are, they're complicated and hard to develop later in life. Um, but God bless us all because you can always become more astute at learning how people are feeling. 'cause you can ask them a question. How are you feeling? You can always become more skilled at building your vocabulary. The world is your, is your exploration in terms of vocabulary or app has 244 words in it. That's enough to get you through life. And we can always learn better strategies to regulate. I'm still learning better strategies to regulate. I love when I hear someone speak about a strategy, you know, that is inspiring, that's like, oh, I never thought about it that way. Like, the stuff we talk about, like getting in the hot air balloon, right? And just sitting in that hot air balloon and looking down and realizing, wow, that one person who is gaslighting me right now, like that's only one person in my life. I have dozens of other relationships that are so much more meaning so that, that are more meaningful and real and healthy. So I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna kick that gaslight right out of my life.

Dr. Robin Stern: And we have the power to do that. And, and I, and I love that. Um, that's a image to, to wrap up with. I love the invitation for other people to get into their hot air balloon and look at their lives and see that this struggle, if you're in a struggle with a gaslight, is this moment in time and there is a, beyond this moment in time and that there's so much learning that can come from looking down and understanding and unpacking and, uh, reflecting on your feelings and, and, um, learning from that reflection that we hope you can do that for yourselves. It's a great way to end. And now tell people where to find you and when your next book is coming out.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Well, I don't know when the next one is coming out 'cause I gotta finish writing it first. Yeah. . But

Dr. Robin Stern: They can, okay. Fair enough.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Permission to feel is the one that people can read now and that's available at Amazon or any other bookseller. And I think probably the easiest way to just kind of stay in touch with me is just go to my personal website, which is mark with AC bracket.com, and then obviously all the social media channels, whether it be LinkedIn or Instagram or Twitter, now X and others.

Dr. Robin Stern: So please read permission to feel it's really a gift to yourself. And as Mark said, it's the journey of a lifetime to do this work. And I'm so glad to be on this journey with you. And thank you so much for coming on this podcast and I'll speak to you later. Thank you everyone for joining us, and, um, I hope this has been a meaningful and growth promoting moment for you.

Dr. Marc Brackett: Thank you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work and my upcoming book is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.