Podcast Player Episode 022

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone. On today's episode, I have the opportunity to talk with Tasha Adams, the former wife of Stewart Rhodes, the founder of the far right Group, the Oath Keepers. Rhodes was recently convicted of seditious conspiracy and other offenses related to the horrendous January 6th attack on the US Capitol. He was sentenced to 18 years in prison. Tasha shares her incredibly moving account of her life with roads, how she and her children were abused and gaslighted by him, and how she eventually escaped, ultimately divorcing roads and choosing freedom and integrity instead. I hope you enjoy my interview with Tasha. As much as I have enjoyed already meeting with her and speaking briefly with this courageous woman.

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. Really honored today to have with me Tasha Adams, who is the former wife of Stewart Rhodes, who led the Oath Keepers. Uh, and I have the privilege of having a pre-conversation with, with Tasha yesterday, and we spoke woman to woman. And so that's where I'd like to start. Um, as a woman, you've been through quite a bit and as a mom, you've been through quite a bit in your journey with Stewart and being married all those years and, and, um, absorbing and coping with and struggling with what was happening around you because of what, because of Stewart's journey, really. And, um, and here you are on the Gaslight Effect podcast.

Tasha Adams: Here I am and thanks for having me on. So

Dr. Robin Stern: What led you to say yes to the Gaslight Effect podcast?

Tasha Adams: Well, honestly, uh, um, I would really, I just enjoy hearing someone, a professional's take on. What to me has been oddly fascinating. Every time I've, every time I had been able to take myself, um, out of the situation and just sort of look at it, um, I realize I'm dealing with a deeply troubled person. You know, I'm, I'm dealing with, my husband is the founder of the largest militia, the oath keepers, um, in the country, probably ever. Um, and it was a, a darkly fascinating world when I could take myself out of it. And, and gaslighting was a huge, huge part of it. It was a huge part of, um, the, how he treated the people around him, how he treated us. Um, and, and to some extent, I think being somewhat of a cult leader, though there was no religion involved. Um, I think sometimes he gaslighted, you know, he was gaslighting himself, you know, believing his own bizarre lies and his own version of reality that maybe deep down he probably knew wasn't, wasn't, uh, fact.

Dr. Robin Stern: What makes you say that? He probably knew

Tasha Adams: Sometimes he would have odd behaviors where I would think he has to know this isn't real. You know, he has to know. And, and yet he would sometimes say and do things where it seemed like he thought as long as he held tight to his narrative, as long as he held tight to his sort of twisted view, even if it was just so far removed from the truth, um, that somehow he had control of everything in his life, even if it was just really slipping away, you know, to the point where, I mean, even he would do it over little things and he would do it over big things. And, and, and he would do this over things that were just immovable realities. I mean, just, um, sometimes he would do it over silly things. I just, he know he would eat a piece of food that he had left out that had been bad.

Tasha Adams: Uh, you know, it left something he left sitting around and he would say, this is just outta the refrigerator. Right? And I'd say, no, you left that on your desk all night. And then he would want me to agree with him that, yes, you did just take this outta the refrigerator. And somehow it, it just didn't make any sense. But somehow he thought if he held onto this, this fiction, you know, if I agreed with him somehow that would keep him from getting sick. So I just said, . And I would think, well, deep down he has to know that you can't change reality just by forcing everyone to agree with you, you know? But he was so used to forcing people to agree with him, to hold onto his safety net that I think he started doing it over things that it just didn't even make any sense, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, so I would really love for listeners to, uh, to hear your story. How did he do that with you from the earliest time? When did you start noticing gaslighting? Because so many people, um, like yourself, are in relationships for a period of time before you realize, wait a minute, you know, not only is something wrong, but there's something may have a name, and this something has to do with my reality. It's not just that it feels bad, it's not just that, um, he's a bully, that he's actually, uh, changing the way I feel about myself and see reality. So take us back and tell us a little bit of your story.

Tasha Adams: Well, I mean, I, I married him, I met him very young. I was only 18 when I met him, and he was seven years older than I was. Um, and it, it definitely started slowly at first, and it, and it, it probably was slower than most abuse situations. I mean, the, the initial abuse started and it sort of tapered off for a very long time. Um, but he would always have odd behaviors, um, things that I didn't really, I, I obviously didn't have language for it, but I knew that he would do this thing that I would think to myself, oh, he's doing that thing again, where he's, he's trying to force me to agree with him mm-hmm. , um, or, or, uh, and, and sometimes it would work, but I would find out, find out later that he had just been giving me fiction sometimes years later.

Tasha Adams: I think there was one instance early on where I had, back when I was still allowed to have an opinion, I disagreed with him on something. Um, in front of some friends of that were mostly, you know, all all our friends were, they were his friends, of course. Um, I disagreed with him slightly with something, and, and he just, right in front of the friends just launched into this horrible, ugly tirade at me. And I, like I always did, I just apologized. Oh, I didn't mean to offend you. I'm, I'm really sorry. And after the friends left, he took me aside two, three days later and said, look, they, you know, the friends, they approached me and they really don't wanna spend any more time with you. They're so disappointed in your behavior, and they're, they're so disgusted with the way that you treated me.

Tasha Adams: And I, I said, sh you know, should I apologize to them? Give, let, let me lemme call them and just tell 'em I didn't mean to upset them. I, I'm, I'm thinking that I'm, I made everything in embarrassing somehow. And, and he said, no, no, no. Don't, don't do . Don't do that. Um, they, they didn't want me to tell you that this is how they felt, but they don't really wanna spend time with you anymore. If they do come over here again, it's because they wanna hang out with me, but they don't really wanna talk with you. And they did come over a couple more times after that, and he never, never walked out of the room while they were there. Um, and then eventually they came over and he left the room for a minute for a phone call, and they ran right up to me.

Tasha Adams: And I thought, here we go. And I immediately started with, look, I, Stewart did tell me, I'm sorry, and they said, stop, stop. We took Stewart aside, and we told him he was completely out of line that day. Don't like the way he's treating you. Something's very wrong here. And we called him out on it, and we just wanted you to know that. And it was so shocking to me, because for weeks, I had really just thought, am I really that bad of a, I mean, he really had me thinking, I'm just this such a terrible wife. Why did I, why did I, you know, disagree with him like that in front of people?

Dr. Robin Stern: And he had you thinking then also kept you isolated and, and removed from the people who he said, were accusing you of that. Yes. But I, I wanna start, um, perhaps somewhere else with, uh, with the word that you used just a few minutes ago, fascinating that it was, you know, dark and fascinating. But I wonder if you, if that goes along with the way you felt about him when you met him, because you had a totally different background with like, hanging out with totally different kind of guys. Right? So can you just give us a little context, um, of your dating life before Stewart, and then how, how, uh, fascinating to use your word you found him.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. I, you know, I had grown up in this Mormon culture, um, in southern Nevada, which is, you know, heavily Mormon populated, and which for people aren't familiar, it's just a very conservative Christian, um, what I call board game, family lifestyle, board games and ice cream lifestyle, you know, this very vanilla kind of world. And, and, um, yeah, I had only gone on a few dates, um, prior to meeting Stewart, but I, I went on one that really, really, uh, struck me. I mean, everything was perfect. He was so nice, you know, he, he, uh, picked me up at my mom's house, and we went out for, um, for dinner, and he had two for one coupons. And , we, we ate, I still remember, we, it was Las Vegas, so we ate in a casino. It was at the Iron Horse Cafe, and we had this two for one special with his little coupons.

Tasha Adams: And then he had movie coupons too. And we went to see a movie, and he absolutely, literally yawned and stretched and put his off, his off over my shoulder during the movie. And, and he even tried to kiss me goodnight, which I said, no, no, you know, this is against the rules. And he, oh, yes, of course, I understand. I'm, I'm sorry. And it was very sweet, and it was horribly boring. It was actually torturous the entire time. And I, and I had had another date before that was very similar. We went mini golfing, and it was just so epically boring. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Did you feel like you, you knew what you were looking for and just were not finding it in the Mormon community or in particular guys?

Tasha Adams: I think so. I, because I, I did want something different, and I, I just, I wasn't really ready to admit to myself that maybe this, this culture, maybe this just isn't a good fit for me. You know, maybe I need to look into something different in the world. You know, I was, maybe, I was kind of a, kind of a show off personality, definitely lean to be the creative type, and, and then I, and, um, I, I had a little bit of an odd streak for adventure. I think. I, I wanted to do all these crazy things in my life, but I was also painfully shy. And so I really kind of, you also, what, like

Dr. Robin Stern: 19? You were really? Yeah,

Tasha Adams: Yeah. I was only 18. Yeah. So that, that probably had a, had more of a normal lifestyle and gotten into college, and then all those things, I probably would've worked on those things. I thought that's something I really need to work on. But then there was this sort of, for lack of a better term, devil on my shoulder that was like, well, the easy way out is to date someone assertive. And then I don't have to be the one, you know, to take something back to the store if it's a faulty product, or I don't have to be the one to make the phone calls or talk to people, or, you know, and what if I wanna go on all these crazy adventures? What if I wanna go skydiving or go sailing? Or maybe, you know, I'm not afraid of the skydiving, but maybe I'm afraid to go into the skydiving, , whatever, building and sign up for.

Tasha Adams: Like, how do you walk in and say, I don't know what I'm doing, you know, help me. How do I do this? What does it call, you know, all those things seemed absolutely mortifying and terrifying to me. You know, much worse than jumping out of an airplane would be talking to people to set it up. So , I thought, you know, there was that, that little bit in me that was like, oh, if I just dated someone really assertive, that would be a real shortcut to doing everything I wanna do in life, you know? And so then

Dr. Robin Stern: You found Steward. So how did you find,

Tasha Adams: Um, I was, um, teaching dance lessons. I was, um, um, a ballroom dance instructor, and that was one of my other side dreams, was my dance partner and I were gonna travel, and we were, we were training to compete and compete in, um, around the country, and we had all these plans. And so, yeah, Stewart came in for dance lessons, um, which just sort of odd, but yeah, there it was, and , and I was not his teacher, but, um, you know, right from the beginning it was intrigued because dating students was strictly, you know, not permitted. Um, now he does have that manipulative streak where he constantly turns himself into a chameleon, and, and almost right away he understood that I was Mormon. I don't even know if I told him, or if he just guessed it, but one of the things that had happened in his family is he had a, a grandparent who was changing religions every week and constantly taking custody of him and his sister and, you know, typical, you know, unstable childhood and constantly baptizing him this, that and the other.

Tasha Adams: And one of the hundreds of things they'd been baptized in was Mormon. So, of course, he calls himself Mormon when he, well, I'm Mormon, you know, I'm, I'm Mormon too, I'm just inactive, you know, not revealing that maybe he'd gone to church for two or three weeks ever in his entire life when he was 12. Um, so yeah, I mean, he asked me out, and it was a secret because he was a student at the dance studio. And then as soon as I met his family, I was, I was pretty taken in because, you know, I, my whole life was, you know, horrible noodle casseroles. And here they are with these spicy foods and this, this different music. He'd grown up with this mix of, um, his mother was, was, um, Mexican and American Indian, and, you know, native American. And, and his, um, uh, stepfamily and step uncles were all Filipino.

Tasha Adams: And so there was just this neat just mix of different music, different foods. Everyone was loud and huggy and, you know, and very festive, you know, there was no reserved, you know, nobody's in the, with their arms folded quietly at the table. So that really appealed to me, like, oh, this is different, you know, this is, this is fun. And, you know, as soon as I met her, she hugs me. And, you know, and my family was very, you know, my mom was not a touchy person, . So those things appealed to me more than Stewart did, really was just the difference, you know, just the whole package. Yeah. The whole thing really appealed to me. And then his assertiveness and his intelligence, you know, his intelligence struck me right off. He was just so well read. And, you know, and it just, did you

Dr. Robin Stern: Share ideas right up front and talk about the world, or just books you had read both of you?

Tasha Adams: Yeah, I mean, I was, you know, I was younger,

Tasha Adams: Yeah. Yes. And we had read very different stuff, but he seemed, he seemed, um, he definitely seemed conservative leaning in his politics, though. He didn't like, uh, the current president, I'm thinking it was Bush at the time, , the older bush . He didn't like him, so he seemed sort of in the middle, um, politically. Um, and I had grown up in a kind of an odd mix politically too, because, um, my family were secret democrats in a, in a very conservative world. And my, my mom was, um, very, very quietly, extremely pro-choice, um, but then mean that's enough to get her excommunicated. So she was very quiet about that. Um, yeah, he started talking about maybe joining the Libertarian party and, and being so non-confrontational. Libertarianism appealed to me immediately because it was a great, um, it was a great out of conversations, you know, you're on this side, you're on this side, and none of this has anything to do with me . Um, but yeah, I mean, he, he really seemed to love history, but at the time he was really, um, not so into politics, but very into history. And we talked about history a lot. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: And in your personal relationship, if I may, um, just jump in a little bit, were, how was the power dynamic? Um, I mean, you, one of the reasons you were attracted to him was that in some ways he was more powerful, more assertive, more out there. And, and, uh, did that, did that impact your intimate moments, the, your time together and, um, the way you thought about the world together?

Tasha Adams: Yes. Um, he was very assertive. And although initially, um, I didn't quite notice it so much, um, because he, you know, he was less overtly aggressive, you know, right outta the bat. But there were some things, some social boundaries he crossed over right away that I, I thought was, I thought was strange. And I, and I put it off to, um, the just different cultural differences. And then I didn't know enough about the world. Um, the first thing that caught me was our very first date. Um, we had set a date. He was gonna take me out to lunch at one o'clock on Friday, and it was a Wednesday the first time he asked me out. But instead, the next night, he called my mom's house, you know, and this is the days of landlines, of course. So he's ringing the entire household at 10 30 at night, um, to ask, say, Hey, I got an early out from work.

Tasha Adams: Cause he worked the, the late night shift, you know, the overnight shift at a casino, um, parking cars for a living. And he said, I, you know, I got off early, you know, I can leave here. I can leave here at 11 o'clock. Um, you know, it's Las Vegas. You can go out to dinner at midnight there. So, um, you just, you wanna come out for an a date right now with me? And I , my first thought was, this is so rude, , this is so rude. I have to explain to my mother why someone's calling the house in the middle of the night. She probably thinks someone's, you know, dead or dying. You know, no one , no one does that

Dr. Robin Stern: Would call.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. And, um, but then immediately I sort of got mad at myself. Like, I thought, come on now, you know, you know, self, we, we were gonna go on adventures. How can you have a lifetime of jumping outta airplanes and sailing and traveling if you're afraid to go out at, you know, on a date because it's a little too late at night, you know, .

Dr. Robin Stern: So you encourage yourself in that direction. Yeah. Cause of what you saw as like shiny objects in the future. Mm-hmm.

Tasha Adams: . Sure. Yeah. I thought, oh, this, like, this is great. This is the beginning of craziness, you know? And immediately, as soon as, you know, he got really pushy, even just, you know, physically, sexually, you know, as, you know, as the dates ending, he's, he's a little too grabby for me. And I, when I made it clear, you know, that that wasn't me, that wasn't, you know, how this was gonna go. And he just kept pushing, pushing and pushing. And I thought, well, that's how it is. You know, I grew up in this bubble. I grew up in this bubble in the world outside. And he very quickly picked up on me feeling that way because he, he almost immediately started also telling me the same thing. Well, you don't know how the world works, you know, this is just how the world works.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I was gonna say, it sounds like you started by gaslighting yourself.

Tasha Adams: I think so, yes.

Dr. Robin Stern: And, um, and it, I, it makes total sense how that could have happened, because here you were, this young girl, um, fascinated with this more worldly guy coming from a very conservative and quiet background, excited by the excitement that he brought. And so judging yourself, rather than wait a minute, like, you know, maybe that is exciting, but it's not cool that he called the house at 10 30 at night. Like, that's not cool. These are, it's a different life. There's something wrong with me. Like, why don't I, like, why? Let me just be open to this and mm-hmm. . And, um, and you're right. It sounds like he caught onto that really quickly. Yeah. So continue.

Tasha Adams: Um, yeah, that was just a, uh, one of the first of many where he seemed to repeat that a lot. Well, you just don't, you don't understand the world. Um, things are different. Not everyone has a little happy life that you have. And, and, um, and then at the same time, picked up very quickly on my guilt, uh, having a pretty happy childhood, and the, that I, you know, I was the youngest by far in my, in a pretty large family. Um, my closest sibling was 12 years older than I was, and my parents were much older. My dad was much older than my mom. And, you know, my dad was, I'm 51, but my dad was a, you know, he had been a World War II veteran, and it was just a much older family, different different world, and, you know, in some, in some ways that just them being so much older and made me not, it just, just, I just didn't pick up on the straight up misogyny quite so much because my parents had that sort of front of the man's in charge, but in reality it wasn't like that at all.

Tasha Adams: So I wouldn't, I didn't see these types of warning signs so much because my parents looked very much like the men's in charge, but at home it wasn't like that. You know, my dad was very laid back, very casual, you know, it's just, you know, what I say goes, but once they're in the house, my mom's, you know, if he's not cleaning up after himself, my mom goes on strike and walks around with a bottle of air laundry detergent, chanting, e r a.

Tasha Adams: So I mean, you know, so they kind of rejected that sort of standard way, but I didn't, so I didn't notice, well, the, the people do this kind of thing, but in reality at home, they don't really, you know, they don't really act on this, you know, this man's in charge thing. So I missed some of that, just, just not even so much the Mormonism, I think, but even just the older, older family. And, um, but I had always had a lot of guilt myself at being the youngest, you know, my parents had struggled, and my dad had been a single dad of my half siblings when my mom came along. Um, and they had a pretty rough life, you know, his older kids. And, and they suffered a lot of consequences from it just, you know, a lot of lifestyle issues and alcoholism. And my, my sister, older sister died under pretty mysterious circumstances. And, um, yeah, it, it was, it was, I mean, I was so young, you know, but for them it was, it was really difficult. A lot of, you know, a lot of tragedies. And so I had a lot of guilt of always of being the kid who came up in the house, that the house was already built, and the business was established, and everybody had money and bank accounts, and everything was secure. And that bothered me already when I met Stewart.

Dr. Robin Stern: Wait, you say you had guilt, and, um, I, I'd love to unpack that a little bit for our listeners and, and just, um, for you as well, of course. Do you mean, and just tell me if I'm wrong, that you felt guilt when you had a need, or you felt guilty that you needed things, or that you would ask for things, or that you wanted things, or that you had feelings. Did you feel, um, like yesterday we were talking a little bit about how you learned to accommodate, you know mm-hmm. , because when, uh, when there's gaslighting in the relationship, ultimately if you want things to be peaceful, you accommodate to somebody else's reality, right? Mm-hmm. . But when you're doing that all the time, clinically, we call that pathological accommodation. And I wonder if your guilt pushed you to do that very early on in your life, so that it was kind of no big deal when you just continued to do that later on.

Tasha Adams: Yeah, I, I think that sounds uncomfortably familiar. . I, I think I felt guilty with anything that I had almost that, for having too much for being given so much, um, that I know my siblings didn't have any of those opportunities for being the youngest, you know, and I, I was sort of a, you know, the only kid around, so I would get a lot of attention, but I also was very lonely kid and pretty isolated and, and immediately having to also accommodate when I was really young, the adult world, you know, people would always say, oh, she's just a, she's a little adult, you know, she's eight years old, but she acts like an adult because there was no, there was no kid things, no one's taking me to sports or, or anything like that. I'm going with my parents to go work on jobs at their job site, or I'm, I'm sitting at the, the kids, you know, would come over for a holiday at my sibling's children who were my age, um, would come over for a holiday and they would sit at the kids' table, and I would never be comfortable with them.

Tasha Adams: I would wanna be with the adults and, and just sort of adjust to the adults. And I, and I always, I always, always, as a kid felt like, oh, it's, it's embarrassing that I have, it's embarrassing that I have my own room. You know? It's, it's, you know, they they had to share. They remembered living in apartments. I live in this nice big house, you know, my mom helped me buy a car. And that didn't happen for my, my older brother, you know, he bought his own car, working a job. And it was, it was, I was embarrassed to have a car, you know? I was embarrassed for all of that. And I, and I very early developed a thing where I, if I ever even wanted to buy something for myself, I would feel like I really needed to earn it in some way.

Tasha Adams: Like, um, just, maybe one example is that I, uh, you know, I really enjoyed running a lot when I was young. Um, but I wouldn't buy real running shoes unless I was running high mile. Like, I, I think I got to the point where I was running 10 miles a day before I allowed myself to buy running shoes. Cause I said, well, I didn't earn that. I have to wear my, you know, $5 thrift store, holy shoes, until I, even though I could, you know, I had the money to do it, but I just felt like, oh, I haven't earned that. You know, I haven't earned it enough. And I, and I always struggled with that even before I met Stewart. And I think he picked up on that right away that I was eager to say, oh, I, I don't deserve this thing unless I really worked for it. You know?

Dr. Robin Stern: And how do you think, um, it that impacted, uh, your emotional needs, feeling guilty about what you had and, and, um, whether wondering if you deserved it or, or feeling badly that people didn't have it and you did that other siblings didn't have it, that, and that you did have it. How do you think that, um, translated into when you had an emotional need?

Tasha Adams: Yeah, I think I just, um, I just, it took a ridiculous amount of pride in not ever having a need , you know, almost like, well, I don't, I, you know, I can be cheery and happy, and I don't need anyone's support. I don't need anyone to baby me. I don't need anyone to hug me and tell me it's okay. I would like that. It would be nice. But, um, you know, when it comes down to it, I would tell myself, um, you know, feelings aren't real. They're a made up thing in my own head. And so if I'm feeling like I need something, it's, I don't had some traumas as a kid. And I, I always, I look back on that, outside of my family, there was some abuse and, you know, there was some sexual abuse outside of my family. My family never knew anything about, um, you know, friend of the family type thing. And I, I, I think that that impacted me a lot and not wanting to bother anyone in my family with it.

Dr. Robin Stern: So therefore, making the feelings unimportant.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: No big deal.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. So I, I feel like the story of Stuart is also sort of the story of a perfect storm with my extreme accommodating and extreme enabling. Um, and his extreme ability to take advantage of that

Dr. Robin Stern: And not honoring your feelings

Tasha Adams: And not honoring my feelings at all, just, just snuffing 'em out. Like they were never there.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so ultimately it was only his feelings that matter. Yes.

Tasha Adams: Yes. And, and that was something I even got to the point where I was having talks with myself again over why That's okay, because that did, that came up eventually where this is getting to be ridiculous. I am still human, you know, I am still a human. I can't just forever just say that I don't, I don't exist. Only one of us, there's two people in a marriage, only one of us exists. You know, it's starting to absurd. Sound absurd. Even to me at some point, you know, ,

Dr. Robin Stern: Can you paint us and, um, me and, and the listeners, um, who are with us right now that paint that picture, uh, what was going on during that time? So you had had a couple of kids already and, and then you were moving forward, and where were you in your life when you were beginning to think, this is kind of ridiculous. I'm, I'm a human being.

Tasha Adams: Um, well, one of the things that Stewart would use to manipulate, and something he learned from his mother, um, with their constant moving and, and, um, was this constant creation of emergency. And for him, the emergency was always achieving more for the family, for, you know, moving up in our family life. And so there was this constant state of emergency with, well, I've got to get my college finished, you know, and he didn't start college until 28 years old. And even then he started very, you know, eighth grade level classes. You know, he hadn't done well in school, so, you know, he had to start from the very bottom. And, you know, and I was really impressed by that and his ability to wanna do that. Um, but I, and I helped him a lot, um, but I excused a lot of why I, I didn't need to address any of my own emotions was because we were in this emergency.

Tasha Adams: We've gotta get him through college, and then we've gotta get him through this internship. And then we've, we've gotta get him through law school, and now we've gotta get him through a clerkship. And now his very first job after law school, so there was just this constant leapfrogging and, and this struggle. And it was a real struggle to go from, because once I married him, poverty, you know, poverty level really, um, to go from that to Yale Law School was, was torture. It's, it's just not set up, you know, it's just, there's just a lot going on there that's just, you know, the struggle of how do you know you don't have credit, you don't have, you know, you don't have anything and you're trying to, trying to get there and trying to get an apartment. And we had kids while he was in law school, and it must have

Dr. Robin Stern: Been so difficult. And, and had you guys must have been magicians to make it happen.

Tasha Adams: It was, it was difficult. But he also had this mindset of, you know, as long as we could survive, that was lifestyle enough. And so we were often living in situations that were pretty rough, you know, for a long time.

Dr. Robin Stern: What did you think about that philosophy?

Tasha Adams: You know, it fit right into my mindset of, I need to earn, if I wanna have a house one day, it's okay that I've got three kids in a 600 square foot apartment, you know? And, you know, later on we live for, you know, seven years in an 800 square foot cabin with six kids, you know, and, and ever increasing animals, you know, . So I, I, I really, it, it fit right in with my already over accommodating mindset, I think. But it wasn't until that constant leapfrogging, emergency state, emergency state, emergency state, and now a decade's gone by. And the whole time, his ultimate goal at the end was to start some, some type of what he called a nonprofit. I had no idea what that would look like, but he said that that would be the one thing that once he did that he wouldn't be so stressed, you know, he wouldn't have all the needs. We would have a normal life and, you know, things could happen again, you know, where, you know, we would have the time to celebrate my birthday, not just his or , you know, little things like that. You know, it wouldn't all be about him. It's all about him, because he's needed all of this to be able to achieve all these crazy, you know, notches. And so once he's achieved those things, we can step back.

Dr. Robin Stern: I feel like I'm listening to the story he told you. Yes.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. ,

Dr. Robin Stern: He needed you to leapfrog and he needed to go. And while you were doing that, did you ever, did you ever question that? Did you ever ask him like, why is something always an emergency? Or why, or was that off the table? Just tell us.

Tasha Adams: That was pretty off the table. Um, the closest thing I could do with him was to speak in parable about other people as a lesson. And that became sort of my way of thinking. He could still be helped. I would think, well, I'm helping him and I'm helping him to heal. He just doesn't understand. And so I would, I would, um, search for examples from his childhood and things that his mother had done to him and point them out when they were completely, obviously the same situation that he had just done to us, I would say, oh, remember that, that time you had made all those plans to, to spend that weekend somewhere. And as soon as your mother found out, she said there was an emergency and she needed you to cancel everything to, to move her from one storage unit to another storage unit.

Tasha Adams: And then it turned out she didn't need any of it. remember that time she created an emergency and claimed her parents were moving, and then it turned out they didn't need to move for a month, and you had to, you know, stop everything for her. Remember that, you know, I would, and, and I would sort of analyze the behavior. Like I think it's a way of her maintaining con trying to control something or to get all the attention. And so I would almost always just use his mother, um, as an example when I, when I saw him. Like, that's the closest I could get without it turning into a pretty emotionally abusive, just instant vicious situation.

Dr. Robin Stern: So if you confronted him, um, before you learned how to manage him mm-hmm. , I'm assuming you're saying, uh, he would be abusive and vicious. Yeah. So you went, so it seems like you went from, um, him being your hero to someone who you, uh, you had to work around mm-hmm. , somebody you had to manage mm-hmm. . At what point did you begin to think, I've gotta get outta here?

Tasha Adams: You know, I really pulled myself a very long time, even when I started to learn a little bit more about, I heard the term narcissist, you know, and, and I had some idea that a narcissist couldn't be helped. But even then I thought, well, maybe, you know, science doesn't know everything. , maybe I can be the first person to cure to cure this. No one's ever worked out it so hard. , maybe they don't know it can be done. Um, it wasn't until it was glaringly obvious that maybe he was, I mean, he was a sociopath. And I, and I really just thought, I just don't see other, it was around, you know, we were married in 1994, it was 2012 or so, and actually 2011 when I had a pretty serious, um, health situation. I had a miscarriage. Um, and I, I almost died and I almost died in our house.

Tasha Adams: I almost died with no medical attention. And I almost died with him completely ignoring me and leaving me, you know, bleeding to death on the floor in this sleeping bag. He had thrown on the floor for me to lay down in when I couldn't stand up anymore. And he just left me there. And I, and I thought, oh, I, I could die here. And no one's gonna notice until dinner's not ready, you know? And that's, that's the . And he just locked himself. Of course, that wasn't entirely true because I had children who found me Yeah. Laying there. Yeah. And, um, it was actually my oldest daughter who revived me. And, um, I talked her through getting the bleeding to stop and, and some tricks I'd learned from a midwife, and, but he didn't care. That's quite a lot for you and your daughter to go through that.

Tasha Adams: Yeah, it, it was, it really was. And, and of course, I, you know, here I was on spend control, I, it looks like a lot of blood, but it's, it's not that bad. And, you know, I just, you know, my blood sugar dropped and so I'm, I'm fine. Um, but that really told me, I didn't think I could get out of the marriage, but that really told me everything I really needed to know. I wasn't quite ready to deal with it. I didn't know if I could get out of it, but I, I did switch tactics. How so? Um, instead of trying to, to fix him, I mean, I did still sometimes do that just because I sometimes had hope, but I, I switched more into sometimes telling the kids, you know, dad has some problems and, and when he says things to you, it's not based in reality.

Tasha Adams: He's just repeating things. His mother said to him, you know, he, he does, he just doesn't know better because no one ever taught him, and he's just not as emotionally mature as you guys are. And I know it's hard, but maybe try not to let the things he say says sink in, because they're not, they're not real, you know? And, and even for the first time had a conversation with my oldest son that, you know, you know, when he starts talking about how the world's gonna end and society's gonna collapse, that's, that's his childhood talking. That's not really gonna happen. And, um, but it's one thing for me, but they, they believed a lot of what he said because they grew up around it. And

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And well, and also, why would your parent ever tell you something that's not true?

Tasha Adams: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Like, you, you want to believe that your parent is not true. So you're telling them basically that he, um, had emotional issues and, and, uh, that his parenting was not good parenting. Uh, his mother's parenting of him was not good parenting, and he was kind of carrying that legacy was your way of managing their, seeing him as Yeah. Rather than bad or good, but as someone who was sick

Tasha Adams: Yeah. And an obstacle really, you know, something to be worked around. And, and it, it, it did shift our dynamic in the house quite a bit where it was just like, you handle him with kid gloves, but the real life is happening around him,

Dr. Robin Stern: Uhhuh

Tasha Adams: , you know? Um, and luckily for us, he was traveling a lot by then.

Dr. Robin Stern: And why did you think you couldn't get out?

Tasha Adams: I don't know, really. I mean, there were, there's a lot of real reasons, which is as he was growing oath keepers, he was becoming more and more, um, connected with police departments. He was becoming more and more connected with important people. Um, I was initially very fearful while his mother was still alive, um, because she was very much like him. And, and she also had a stable enough house at that point where I knew that there would be a place for the kids to be, and that he would make a very good case for trying to keep the kids mm-hmm. . And at that point, um, he must have sensed that I understood there was something very wrong with him that I didn't sense before then, because that is the same within a few months, um, is when he started in that same timeframe, is when he started, um, giving me parables about how women can get locked up in institutions, especially if they're husbands or lawyers mm-hmm.

Tasha Adams: , um, that they'll never see that they never see their kids again. That he's known lots of stories like that. And that there's no, the mental health system is not the same as the criminal justice system. You don't need to prove your case. You can just be locked up. You can, if your kids are being taken away from you for mental health reasons, you know it, and it happens all the time. You know, women can be be kept from their kids. And so I, I understood that to be what it was, which was a threat.

Dr. Robin Stern: Threat of course.

Tasha Adams: And yeah, and that's the, the screws definitely started tightening when I realized what was going on. So I don't know if he was able to subconsciously pick up on it or if I'm not as slick as I, I thought I was, you know,

Dr. Robin Stern: Oh, it's also pretty hard to stay completely, um, gathered and together. Yeah. Centered when somebody, uh, is, um, um, distorting reality or, or, uh, creating reality around you mm-hmm. that you can't possibly live in cuz it isn't there. Yeah. And, um, and abusing you and being nasty to you and threatening you. I mean, that's, that's pretty hard to be your str same strong self who's talking to Yeah, yeah,

Tasha Adams: Yeah. It was very hard. And then the lack of sleep, you know, they don't let you sleep

Dr. Robin Stern: Well and isolation from other people as well.

Tasha Adams: Yeah. Total isolation. Complete and total isolation. And then, um, right around that time, we, we moved to Montana from Nevada, um, and we, but we moved to, you know, a little town where there were humans and the kids still had contact with, you know, they, they were all, everyone's homeschooled, everyone's in the house all the time. And we still had some contact cuz the kids did some sports. Um, but then I had a, a stillborn child and, um, his reaction was almost exactly the same. You know, he, it was clear he didn't care. The difference was, it wasn't a surprise to me at all. Um, and then that was when he just moved us to the middle of nowhere. As soon as that happened, as soon as I was mentally down and not on top of my game and not on this, and not chipper and full of, full of, you know, just man, like you said, managing him.

Tasha Adams: And on it, he just moved us to the middle of nowhere. And that's when, that's when it just, you know, there was no more facade, you know, and we couldn't leave at that point. Yeah. He was keeping us without a car most of the time. Or he would, you know, there was always some facade with him. He was, oh, I took the car to the mechanics, but four months later the car's not going, oh, there's a special part they have to order. You know, the car's just gone. And I think it was gone for something like seven. I don't even know where he was keeping it, you know, it was just gone for something like seven months. He controlled all our mail. Um, you know, he would come to town, you know, he would come home from traveling, but he would fly in and rent a car. And so while he was home, there was a brand new car in the garage, and he would just re-up it maybe for a month, even if he stayed home for a month, he'd just re-up the car rental and then he would leave and he would take the transportation with him. Um, and of course there's no cell service. There's a landline, but it's, we're not allowed to use it. It's unplugged whenever he is home. And , the, the control was pretty total at that point.

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I'm, I'm so with you and your story and wanting to continue, and I wanna be mindful of time and, um, respect your time as well, but just can't let you go. Before I ask you, um, a couple of things that, that I really would love to, to know, um, and I know our readers, uh, our listeners will wanna know as well. How are your kids now and how are you, like, you seem like, um, you've, you've survived and he's been indicted. He was indicted for the primes of January. Yeah. And how was that for you? And thank God your kids had you, and how, how are they doing now?

Tasha Adams: My kids are doing very well, um, really well. They're, you know, they're in therapy, they're working through some stuff and they definitely have, they definitely have moments of struggle for sure. Um, my son really en enjoys talking about his dad. You know, he, he, he does do a lot of interviews and he, he's written a lot of articles about it, and I, he finds that very feeling. Dakota, you talking about my oldest child, uh, Dakota, who's legally changed his name, he was Dakota Stewart Rhodes. And that's, that's a burden he didn't need. So he changed his name to Dakota Vaughn Adams, um, legally. Um, so that was really nice for him. Um, so yeah, they, they're, they're working through it. One thing that makes me really happy, I'm very emotional about it, is that they're, um, you, you do see a lot of times kids in these difficult situations, um, once they're out, um, they disperse and they, they don't stay in contact with each other very much.

Tasha Adams: They're very low contact with each other because you know, this other siblings, yeah, they remind them of the, the, the trauma and, but I have just seen my kids have just been such a support for each other that it just, I just is, makes me so emotional just to even see it, you know, when my now 20 year old, um, when she first got out of high school, because the kids went right into school, public school, as soon as we separated, um, she wanted to go to college and, you know, until sh her paperwork went through, she is paying out of pocket. And my oldest daughter saved all her tips and just showed up with enough money for her to, you know, pay for one of her classes and, and books. And she said, I just couldn't imagine. What if you, what if it was time to enroll for school and you, you didn't have the money to do it.

Tasha Adams: You know, it was like fear of her sister not being able to go to school was her fear. And, you know, and then that daughter, you know, she paid for her older sister's therapy when she couldn't get her insurance handled. And, and so they just been, and the other, you know, my other, uh, kid who's really good at paperwork, you know, and so they, they sat down together and well, you're better at filling out these forms, . So they, they help each other and they're helping me start college in the fall because I looked at those forms, like, this is a what paperwork is too much for me. , I've done enough. So they're helping me.

Dr. Robin Stern: It's so beautiful to, to hear this from you and, and I can't help but really believe that all those meetings you had with them and where you would huddle with them and tell them what the truth was, was, um, keeping you all together. And

Tasha Adams: I think it might have helped. Yeah. I, I, I think it helped too, to have time. We did have time, you know, where we knew what was going on. Yes. And we just kind of waited it out until it was safe to get out. So maybe there was, we weren't exactly quite thrown into it so much as we were mentally preparing really, for years. For years

Dr. Robin Stern: They had you

Tasha Adams: .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah,

Tasha Adams: .

Dr. Robin Stern: So, um, before we wrap up and, and I'd love to invite you back, um, for another conversation if you'd like to come back at any time. Yeah,

Tasha Adams: Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, where can people find you and, and tell us a little bit about your book?

Tasha Adams: Well, I, yeah, I am working , it's so hard. I'm such a slow writer, but I am working on a book. Um, I don't even have an agent or publisher yet, although I've had people contact me and I just, I wasn't ready and, but I, it is, it's, this is gonna get done and, um, I'm really kind of hammering away at it now. And, and, um, but I, you know, honestly, I did trash everything I wrote because I, I started in 20 18, 20 19 writing it, and then I looked back over it and realized, you know, I'm, I was still blaming myself for, you know, just like I've, that's, that wasn't written by the, the me I am now, you know? So I just had to, the perspective is completely different. And so I just kind of started again, you know, so I do have a blog that girl tasha.com. I'm on Twitter. It's some form of that girl, Tasha. I'm not sure. , it's, I think it's that girl underscore Tasha. It's something like that. Um, , um, I have a GoFundMe floating around out, out there, but I, that was for my divorce and I am now divorced, thankfully as of about a month ago. So,

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and you are to be congratulated and admired for, um, for surviving and struggling and breaking free. Um, thank you so much for sharing your story, for being willing to be vulnerable and, and, um, and I know how important hearing other people's stories is for, um, for everyone going through an abusive relationship or confusing relationship where they feel like they have to give up their reality to survive. And, um, wonderful to meet you and, and I know you'll be successful with your book and just so happy to hear about your children and, uh, to know that you are free.

Tasha Adams: Uh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on. It's actually been nice to talk, you know, sometimes it's just feels, it's healing to talk about it for sure.

Dr. Robin Stern: So glad Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

Tasha Adams: You,

Dr. Robin Stern: You listeners, um, uh, for being with us during this very meaningful hour with Tasha Adams. And please find her and please read her book when it's out. Thank you.

Tasha Adams: Thanks.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Gabby Kaoagas and Solar Karangi, all of my work and my upcoming book is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez, and Omaginarium also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.