Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center Free Emotional Intelligence and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinsstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome, everyone. I am so excited that this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast, uh, introduces you to Leslie Owin, who is, uh, my dear friend and colleague, have known Leslee for so many years. And Leslie, I'm gonna ask you to tell everyone about yourself.
Leslee Udwin: Where to begin? Uh, I'm so old. Um, but there've been four incarnations, actually, in terms of careers, so maybe that's the place to begin. I started life as an actor. I then became a producer, um, primarily because I wanted to be in charge of the story or the vision of what, uh, it was being, um, uh, uh, narrated. Um, and actors, of course are mostly vehicles through which that narration takes place. And then I became a director, uh, and then made what turns out to be the last film I'll ever make in India. Very dark journey, uh, that I undertook, but actually turns out to be the most luminous journey of my life and led me to what is now my fourth incarnation. Uh, and last, I have to say
Dr. Robin Stern: And I would just add to that a systems change activist with a compassionate heart and a brilliant mind.
Leslee Udwin: Thank you. That's very generous and kind of you to say. And
Dr. Robin Stern: It's very true. It's very true. So it's interesting, as we were beginning to think about, well, first of all, can you, can you talk a little bit about, um, India's daughter? Because I actually believe that, uh, there were instances that you heard or stories you heard that would come under the framework of gaslighting, because I remember when you told me about, um, some of your takeaway from your interviewing lawyers, um, it reminded me that many people live in a world where the truth they believe is not the truth. So I, I'd like you to tell me about, um, your experience with making India's daughter.
Leslee Udwin: I went to India thinking that I was going to make a documentary, which would, in the terms that I was using back then, amplify the voices of the protestors who poured out onto the streets of India cities as a result. And in response to this absolutely brutal, vile gang rape of a young girl on a moving bus in Delhi, um, who died 13 days later from the most appalling injuries. And when I got there, I realized the hollowness of this jargon I was carrying around in my head, frankly, you know, amplify the voices of the protestors. What does that actually mean? It means I'm going to create awareness and make a campaigning film. And I sit there thinking, do we really need more awareness about gender-based violence and this scourge that is ubiquitous across our world? And I became obsessed, I guess, obsessed with the thought that the only purpose in my making this film would be if I could move the needle on this issue.
Leslee Udwin: And it, it seemed to me that what I had to do was to meet those men who had perpetrated this horrific crime, and I had to look them in the eyes, and I had to find out what kinds of human beings do this to another human being. And that seemed to me to justify the purpose of spending two and a half years away from my young children, my husband, my home in a foreign country, um, making a, a, a documentary because that's how long I knew it would take. And it's how long it took. Um, well, the, the surprise was that I got permission to do this, and I got into ti jail, the maximum security jail in India, in yeah, all of India actually, not just Delhi and sat with those rapists from that bus and others whom I had asked permission to practice on.
Leslee Udwin: And I know that sounds a little bit odd, if not outright weird, that I would want to practice on other rapists, but I had to because I myself was raped at 18. So many of us are one in five women across the world is raped. Um, and I needed to test my own metal because I suddenly got terrified by the thought that this would be a perfect storm. And I would be sitting in these prison cells looking at these, what I thought would be monsters that I was encountering, and I would somehow lose it. That was my terror that I would, for the first time in my life, express myself violently, you know? Mm-hmm.
Leslee Udwin: And you know, what, if I hit one of them, do not arrest me. Do not put me in prison. I had to do some kind of ridiculous deal, you know, that said, I, I need to test my own metal here. And I was allowed to, um, well, the first, the first rapist I was given to interview had raped a five year old girl, and I sat with him for three hours. Look, we could spend 25 podcasts talking about that film alone. So why don't I just jump to the conclusions? Because those insights that I gleamed, that those, um, changed my life forever, um, took me totally off course of filmmaking towards taking action to prevent, as opposed to spreading more awareness or, you know, what we normally do as a world, which is we deal with the fallout the result of what I learned in those interviews for 31 hours over several weeks with several rapists and murderers, what I learned was this, no, they are not the monsters that we anticipate them to be, and that the media would have us believe they are because of course, you know, it's in our interests.
Leslee Udwin: It to distance ourselves from them and say they are nothing to do with us. What I discovered was they are a lot to do with us
Leslee Udwin: But it's no different to, uh, the belief in the uk, for example, that women doing the same job as men need to be paid less, you know? Um, or that you shouldn't really hire that woman because she's likely to fall pregnant. And you know what? Bad for business. I mean, discrimination is endemic. It sits entrenched in hearts, and we have to break this paradigm. And so that is what this, this journey making that documentary taught me that we have to change mindset. And until, and unless we do, we are never going to make a dent. You know, 30 years ago, Hillary Clinton was speaking about women's rights as human rights. What have we done since then? You know? Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so, I, I have to read you something right now because it's an article that I'm literally about to publish, um, on medium, uh, and it is about gaslighting, and it is about what you're talking about right now. So the phrase to Gaslight refers to the act of undermining another person's reality by denying facts. The environment around them or their feelings, targets of gaslighting are manipulated into turning against their cognition, their emotions, and who they fundamentally are as people. Most people think of gaslighting as a form of emotional abuse that occurs in a romantic relationship inflicted by the man on a woman. In my practice, over 30 years, I've seen mostly women wanting to, wanting help with their gaslighting husbands. That said, I've also worked with many men who are being gaslighted, and many women who recognize that they may be gaslighting their men power, not sex is the common denominator.
Dr. Robin Stern: That term determines which party is the gaslight. In fact, this notion of power is what explains why gaslighting has been taking root in the broader cultural and systemic levels of our society. The unfortunate truth is that people in positions of power wield their authority to manipulate others into questioning their reality. Professional gaslighting, medical gaslighting and cultural gaslighting are three non-traditional forms that many people are beginning to identify their in their own lived experiences. Here's the cultural gaslighting, Leslie. Here's a quote from someone who doesn't wanna be named. Look, I'm not trying to to be the bad guy here, but the equal rights thing with women has gotten out of control. There are just certain things men can do that women can't. What's wrong with that? So what if a guy regularly gets paid more than a woman? There are times when they deserve it. Suddenly we have a woman as vice President of the United States, and you all still think the world is out to get you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Come on, I'm not buying it. Overreacting is what it's called. Just listen to yourself. Definitely not inequality. This is an outrageous reflection of cultural gaslighting as Dr. Paige Sweet, who's a colleague of mine and has been a guest on this podcast, says, from the University of Michigan. Although we tend to think of gaslighting as a problem be between two people in a relationship, it also unfolds as part of an unequal social context. Gaslighting fees off social vulnerabilities and stereotypes. It entrenches existing power imbalances while fostering new ones. The term is increasingly used to describe racism, sexism, homophobia, and ableism.
Leslee Udwin: This is brilliant, Robin. You know, this is so important.
Dr. Robin Stern: So when you think about that and what the conclusion was that you drew and what you saw now, what do you think?
Leslee Udwin: Well, 100%. Uh, we are gaslighting on a sociocultural level that is leading us to this catastrophe. I mean, look at all of these, um, extreme climactic conditions that have wreaked havoc in the US just these last few weeks, let alone, uh, months who has been gaslighting in terms of saying there's no such thing as climate change. It wasn't so long ago. I'm not that old, right?
Leslee Udwin: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: It's both
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's why Leslie, when, um, so I wrote my book initially in 2007, and it was about relationships, because that was what I was seeing in my practice and still unbelievably, right? Where women who were strong and confident and, and mindful of their feelings and their reality were suddenly fragmented, disoriented, destabilized by these powerful men in their lives, whether the men were their lovers or their bosses or their fathers, right? And it, it isn't not that. I mean, I definitely saw men and I, uh, men definitely are gaslight teas as well, but the preponderance of people I saw were women, because women are women who women typically come and show up for help, right? And women are much more likely to point the finger at themselves when something's wrong. So that
Leslee Udwin: Program to do that,
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes, that's right. That's part of the gaslighting. So yes, so they come into the, to my office and they point the finger at themselves and they say, what's wrong with me? Or, I don't know what's wrong. You know, I don't know what's wrong when it's everything wrong with the abuser, or everything wrong with the environment or the culture that they're living in. And, um, the Me Too movement from my perspective, was women reclaiming their reality. Women standing up and saying, wait a minute. This did matter. Wait a minute, it, this was not to be dismissed. This was not a silly thing. I'm not like, too sensitive or, or too vulnerable. I actually was abused or violated, and this can't go on anymore. So when I think about your work, I think about it as gaslight busting. You know, I think about what you did in that movie as, as showing a distorted dysfunctional reality for what it was, and, and as a reason for people to be committing, as you said, heinous crimes.
Dr. Robin Stern: And I, I remember when I was, um, when I was researching for my book before it was published, the first time I met this woman who was an a, also an author of, uh, one of the ga uh, one of the emotional abuse books. And she said, um, that she had wo, she had spoken to women on death row who told her that they believed that they had to help their husbands commit murder, because that was their proof that they loved them, and their husbands needed proof, proof to me that you love me. If you love me, you will. If you were a good citizen, you will. If you believe this, you will
Leslee Udwin: Absolutely. Look. I mean, uh, when we started out, um, I, I said to you, I think before we even started recording, I said, you know, I can't think of a time I've been gaslighted. And I was trying to wrap my brain said, well, I can immediately now, now that you have, you know, put it so plainly and so clearly. And so, you know, Lumin, really, why did I need to practice on other rapists? Why was I so frightened that I would act in such an uncharacteristic way, potentially in those prison cells? Because for 20 years, I kept quiet about my abuse, the fact that I'd been raped. I told nobody, I didn't even tell my best friend why? Because I knew the finger would be pointed at me as opposed to at my rapist. And I'd be asked, how could you trust him? Why? How you didn't know him that long? Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Leslee Udwin: That's absolutely, that's being gaslit, isn't it?
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. Did you believe that, that maybe there was something wrong with you? Maybe you had something to do with it. Maybe you should have been so trusting?
Leslee Udwin: Probably. Yes. Yes. Which again, will have fed why I told nobody. And then 20 years down the line, I'm thinking, oh, no. 20 years later I told my husband, but 40 something years down the line, you know, I'm sitting now in these prison cells and I'm thinking, oh my God, this is unfinished business. You know, this is, all these ghosts are lurking within me, and what if they pop out and make me do something uncharacteristic, like hit someone
Dr. Robin Stern: And, and your, your loving husband would never do anything like that. So of course, you were not in a gaslighting relationship with him.
Leslee Udwin: No.
Dr. Robin Stern: He never would. Yeah. And, and what happened for you when you told him, and when you finally began to talk about it?
Leslee Udwin: I have to say that there is a streak in me, which I don't mind so much, because it sort of enables me to just get on with things, you know? But I am very, very feet on the ground and practical. I, I know that I have X amount of time to do something in, and I've just gotta get on with it. And here's the horror of how I made that okay for myself, that rape, I don't think I've ever mentioned this to anyone before. I basically said to myself, listen, you could have been killed. He was a bit violent, this guy. And I thought, you are so lucky that you survived. It was only a rape. Get on with it. And so, when I told my husband there was no trauma, I have not yet felt the trauma of that rape. And it's a crazy thing to have to admit, but th that's the truth, right? I, i, I haven't because I so cut it into a box and said it could have been much worse, you know, get on with it. And I've always been mindblowingly busy. So I dunno what happens if I ever am not busy, but I, I won't ever be not busy. I'll keep doing this
Dr. Robin Stern: So somehow you massaged that the reality of what happened to you mm-hmm.
Leslee Udwin: Correct. Swallow
Dr. Robin Stern: It, go on, and not have to talk about it, and not have to live it and grieve it and, and could turn it into social action, which on the one hand is completely brilliant. On the other hand, it's like tampering a little with your reality, isn't it?
Leslee Udwin: Isn't it? Because you know it's playing with fire. I don't know when that's gonna leap out or if it will, or it's unde with business, isn't it?
Dr. Robin Stern: But it is really fascinating to re to talk about this together and to think, for me to think about the passion with which you, um, go forward every day with Think equal. Because you are creating realities for country, after country, after country for every child in every school in the countries you reach, right? And so, can we just move and pivot for a moment into, you are talking a little bit about the reality that you want to create in those countries, the think equal reality.
Leslee Udwin: Yes. So, you know, the film led so seamlessly to think equal. Um, so, so just going back to what was that first real light bulb moment? At a certain point in my inquiry into what kind of human beings do this to another human being, these interviews, I realized that only one of all the rapists I was interviewing had finished secondary school. And I lept to the natural, but actually lazy conclusion that the lack of education in them was clearly significant. It was more than just a coincidence. And then very shortly after that, I found myself interviewing their whole legal team. And the shock for was that the lawyers were at least as bad, and in one or two cases worse than the rapists themselves, in terms of this primary belief system that they held, that there is such a thing as a good girl and a bad girl, um, that certain restrictions apply to girls, uh, within their culture.
Leslee Udwin: And that if they break those codes, if they, uh, break those to booze, then they deserve what they get. One lawyer expressed it so starkly, he said to me, if my daughter had been that girl on that bus, I would take her home to my farmhouse, and in front of my whole family, I would pour petrol on her and burn her alive. This is a lawyer who's had the highest possible degree of access to the highest kind of education you can get right now. I had spent my formative years in South Africa, and Nelson Mandela was a guru to me. And I remembered Mandela saying, education is the most powerful weapon we have to change the world. And this kept on coming over me like a wave washing over me, you know, like a mantra. And I thought, there's something wrong here. Because he was one of the brightest human beings who's ever walked the earth.
Leslee Udwin: A man of his brilliance doesn't leave the word education undefined, but he sure as hell did not mean the kind of education that those lawyers had. That's not the education that changes the world for the better. So what did he mean? And I went and ransacked again, his writing and his work, and I came across probably his most known and famous squint. And suddenly that fell into place for me and made total sense. He said, no child is born hating another human being because of the color of their skin, their religion, any other background, our gender, ethnicity, cast a child has to be taught to hate, said Mandela. And if he can be taught to hate, he can be taught to love. And that for me is when everything fell into place, I knew I'd been sitting with men who had been gaslit, I can say now by their society and their culture.
Leslee Udwin: And I repeat, this is not an India centric issue. This happens in the us it happens everywhere in the world. Um, they had been gaslit by their sociocultural surroundings and thinking, um, to be literally programmed with this mindset of inequality. Um, and therefore there's a missing subject. And that is when I went into research and started gathering the world thought leaders like you and Mark, Dr. Mark bracket, sir Ken Robinson, Vicki Calber, Sheila Majik, Dr. U Shani, Richard Davidson, you know, experts, global thought leaders in psychology, in education, in neuroscience and human rights. And I suppose what I came to understand was, cuz I needed to know what kind of education can change the world. Well, it's this kind of education that teaches you [inaudible] is what Mandela would call it. Uh, it's that you are the other me and I am the other you, and we can only be human together.
Leslee Udwin: And if we don't learn that, if we accord lesser or no value to another human being, we're gonna end up with what we have, which is rape and greed and selfishness and war and et cetera. Right? So when and how can we teach our children to love? Well, it has to be before the age of six, I believe. And neuroscientists would say, foundationally yes. Now, no, no one will say after six, you can't do anything. Obviously you can, but it's a different order of work involved because then you better start drafting in trillions of dollars, not a few hundred thousand per country
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and to your point, to your point, without intervention, if you're taught hate
Leslee Udwin: For
Dr. Robin Stern: The first five years, if that's the reality that you're asked to buy into, that people are not equal, that women are not people, then that's what you're living with for the rest of your life.
Leslee Udwin: That's what those rapists precisely, and that programming was never, um, uh, disrupted.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Leslee Udwin: That's what they were taught. They open their eyes in the world, they see a girl baby being born and commiseration to the mother next time, God willing, it'll be a boy. A boy is born. All the neighbors around distributing sweets, celebrating, you know, they get given a full glass of milk. Their sister has to wait to eat last and not even get her half a glass of milk. You know, that's what sociocultural
Leslee Udwin: You know, this cannot be optional. This has to be the basic foundation that we give to our children. Every child has a right. If you look at things from the other end of the telescope, which is what I now do, every child has a right to grow up and not rape.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. It's, people ask me all the time, well, you know, how, uh, what, what's wrong with gas liters? Like, what kind of psychopathology do they have? And I answer by saying, people are not born gas liters. There you go. People learn within power dynamics or watching power dynamics, how to spin reality. They learn that when you feel uncomfortable, you blame it on the other person. Mm-hmm.
Leslee Udwin: Correct. Correct. That's so important.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. It's social learning. Hate is social learning and generational learning. Yeah,
Leslee Udwin: Absolutely. It is. And you know, we, with, with narrative picture books, with lesson plans, which you've had so much to do with actually, you know, you've written one of them. I mean,
Dr. Robin Stern: I have very excited.
Leslee Udwin: Um, so Ken Robinson wrote one of them, you know? Um, and, and I've just been so privileged to have the generosity, Robin, really, you know, I love you unto death for what you've done for this movement, you know, which is just so necessary. And, and of course, you know, heaven knows in a life that is as busy as yours, and you have your own specialty and expertise and you know, but to actually give your time beyond that to something that is, uh, you know, a movement if you like. But, but I'd say even more significantly than a movement, a program, because we have to take these, you know, like the ruler program. It's not just advocating a list of outputs and objectives that are important. It's giving the tools to change things
Dr. Robin Stern: That you're living a think equal life. You're living that life. That's the goal.
Leslee Udwin: That is the goal. That is the goal from day one. We say every human being is unique. Every human being has special needs. Yes. Every human being is of absolutely intrinsic value. And we smash the stereotypes. We will not allow, um, uh, uh, our children to be divisive in any way. So we are creating these beautiful new collective narratives in that classroom. Um, and of course we also now have materials for parents at home. Um, we have wonderful animations now of, of our books.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I think it's been listening to you and just being reminded of what you've done for the world is, is such a gift to be with you here right now, but also such, I have such deep gratitude for what you're doing for the world, aside from loving you as a friend and and fellow woman in, uh, trying to fight the gaslighting. Right? Um, yes. I, uh, what you've done with Think Equal is extraordinary. And, and your various incarnations have been extraordinary. What advice would you have for people who might be caught in like a large reality that on one level makes no sense to them, or when they see people looking at, uh, living a system like, well, women aren't worth anything, so what if they, they are murdered or raped? What would you say? How do you stay in your own reality rather than think, could they be right? I mean, we would never think, could they be right with something that's dramatic as you're describing with India's daughter, but there are less dramatic cases, like when you personally are raped or you personally are abused or violated. We do think maybe it wasn't that big a deal. At least I wasn't murdered. Right? So what advice do you have for like, claiming your reality and, and understanding the significance of holding onto that reality for yourself?
Leslee Udwin: On one hand, I'm not sure I feel equal to giving the advice from a psychological point of view, because it's not my metier and it's not my expertise. But what I am expert in and what I know I would like to inspire anyone who's experiencing that to do, is to take that piece of darkness, that unpleasant feeling to, to employ real critical thinking. Understand that this is not the truth. But then what I think I would hope and wish that someone experiencing that would then do is to turn that darkness into light and actually go beyond what you are feeling about it and how you are, and, and making sure that it doesn't happen to others. Because there is so much to be said for activism, honestly. It is, it will be our salvation, and we need salvation. You know, I I I, I've been reminded, I dunno why this keeps coming up in my mind as we are talking here, but there is this quote that actually Ken, maybe it's that I've mentioned Ken's name so many times, but he told me this quote, and it was HG Wells, the novelist who said, civilization is a race between education and catastrophe.
Leslee Udwin: Now, we've defined education in the course of this conversation, right? As not that, that, that, uh, thing that's not fit for purpose, that was designed in and for the industrial revolution for kids to get a job to fill factories. That's not the education we're talking about. We're talking about this innate beautiful human education, um, of, of Ubuntu, you know, the equality and inclusion and empathy, et cetera. So that kind of education, that is what will save us from catastrophe. And if you look at the world we're living in, if you consider even just the most recent, um, war in, in Ukraine, which you and I have just done, been doing some work for, you know, um, and, and consider that blatant, if ever there was gaslighting, oh my God, look at the Russian population being gaslighted about that horrific invasion,
Dr. Robin Stern: You are saying something, you're saying whatever you're feeling, hold onto that and do something
Leslee Udwin: Correct, because the problem is bigger than any one of us, and we have to band together. I am so optimistic, I cannot begin to tell you. And I think one of the diseases we are dealing with in our world is that of hopelessness and despair. Yes. Pope Francis said something chilling in his, um, hi, his encyclical, his letter to humanity, uh, called [inaudible]. If anyone has the time to look that up, it's the most beautiful, um, work that he's written. I'm not Catholic, by the way,
Dr. Robin Stern: Or we're despairing, but we have another zoom call to attend or we're despairing, but we have to take our family member somewhere else. And yes. So yes, or we're
Leslee Udwin: Despairing and we are so deep inside our, our own despair, understandably. But, but the of light is to get beyond that and to say, you know, what, if we do band together, I mean, think equals only eight years old. We are now, we have three countries actually implementing as part of the national curriculum, teaching equality, inclusion, love, all of these 25 competencies and skills, emotional literacy, emotional regulation, um, to every single child across these three countries. And this is sort of, please
Dr. Robin Stern: Say the countries, just so the listeners can know,
Leslee Udwin: North Macedonia in Europe, Belize in Central America, Gambia in Africa, and I have just two weeks ago received from South Africa, a memorandum of agreement to bring think equal to every single early year center in the whole of South Africa. Now that is huge. And in England, in the uk in, in Greater Manchester, we are with every single reception class across gr the whole greater Manchester region, which is 1,300 classrooms. And Robin, who is paying for that? The National Health Service of England.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. That's, that's tremendous. Leslie, that's, that's your work. That's, you have done all that.
Leslee Udwin: We have done all that. Robin,
Dr. Robin Stern: A big team. You and your team. I, I just have to say, I'm so ecstatic to hear about Belize because, um, Lena, who has worked with my family for all of these years, uh, supports what she calls the river children in Belize every year, um, where she sends money to kids who to support their education, where kids might not have the money in their family to support education. So when I tell her about this, she's gonna be so happy, and I think it would be wonderful. Maybe we can write a book about the river children in Belize.
Leslee Udwin: Amazing. Well, I'm going in August, Robin, come with me. Let's go to Belize together. The Ministry of Education there, I tell you, is so proud of what they're doing. They see themselves as literally leading the world in this education revolution, bringing, you know, to children the right that they have to become dignified human beings who, who really do, uh, respect the dignity of everybody else in the world. You know? And when I said we have done this, I didn't mean we, me and my team, I meant, you are on my team. We did this. And I thank you with all my heart, Robin, every every opportunity I have. You're extraordinary.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. Well, you are extraordinary and thank you so much everyone for tuning into this very important, um, meaningful and loving conversation between myself and Leslie Udwin of Think Equal and other, um, incarnations. And I think we'll end there. And please tune in for the next episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Gabby Kaoagas and Solar Karangi, all of my work and my upcoming book is supported by Suzan Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.