Podcast Player Episode 013

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center For Emotional Intelligence and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinsstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I am thrilled to have with me friends over the years, people who have hosted me on their podcast, Julie Howard and Abby Rodman, sisters cracking up. Thank you so much for showing up. And let me start right away asking you why you said yes to coming and talking to me about gaslighting. When you listened to me for so long about gaslighting a couple of years ago,

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: We were thrilled, first of all, to be asked to come on your show. And we are such huge, I don't wanna say fans, that doesn't seem to fit, but we are such huge admirers of you and of so much respect for the work you do in this arena. Thank

Dr. Robin Stern: You.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: And we adore you. That's another thing. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Everything is mutual

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: , and, um, we also have so many thoughts and so many things to share about this delightful topic. Julie, why did you say yes?

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, I loved your book so much, and it helped me personally, even though I read it before you came on as a guest. You know, this is how our, that was our first introduction through your book. But, you know, I had a personal experience with it. And also, um, yeah, we still have a lot of things to talk about and lots to share. I'm a coach, as you know, and Abby's a psychotherapist, and we have clients that experience this, and we just think it's a really rich and interesting topic. Thank you for coming on. Um, I can't wait to, to get into it. So, of the things that come to mind when you think about gaslighting of your coaching experiences and experiences, a as a therapist and experiences in your own life, where would you like to start? What's most top of mind for you?

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Well, we certainly have plenty of personal stories to share, being that we're sisters real life ones. Um, that's a

Dr. Robin Stern: Great place to start. .

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: And we did talk before we came on the show about, you know, gaslighting in families, right? I mean, here we are representing our small family. Um, and we had a pretty significant long-term gaslighting situation in our family. One that went on actually for decades, and thought that that might be interesting to share as it's not kind of a one off, well, this person said this, what did they mean? Kind of thing. This was really a, um, systemic and systematic gaslighting that occurred in our own family. I guess I'll invite Julie to, to speak on that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Abby's talking about our father, um, and was very much what his personality was about, and kind of flipping the dialogue, always, always flipping the situation around where, um, he's innocent and everything that's going on around him is, is, is kind of everybody else's fault. Mm-hmm. . So there's something wrong with you if there's something wrong. That's exactly right. Mm-hmm. . So te can you share with me an early memory, um, or, and or, um, a time where you realized, wait a minute, this is not okay.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Well, the long-term gaslighting situation that I was referring to was that my father had in fact had another family when we were growing up, and there was a kind of party line that he was dating this woman. And of course, you know, there are so many details, Robin, we don't have enough time between now and New Years to get to get to it. But, um, he basically had another family. And the party line was that he was dating this woman, um, and she had had twins. Um, this is me, this is going back decades now. Um, but that those twins were, um, the products or were, or, or are the products of the marriage she was in at the time when, when she and my father began their relationship.

Dr. Robin Stern: And the story that we heard our whole lives was that although they were in a relationship, the boys were the product of her intact marriage. So I'm already confused. Well, first of all, so thank you for your willingness to share this. Um, uh, it must have been something to live with this, um, for decades. So he, you were living with your father and with your mother and father. Mm-hmm. . And he was ostensibly dating. He was in a relationship first. It was hidden, and he was gaslighting my mother for a decade. Eventually the marriage came apart, um, and he continued to date this woman. During the course of their relationship. She had two children, twins, boys with him, with supposedly her husband. Right. Not our father. Mm-hmm. . And that was what our father told us, our base our whole lives, that these kids were not his children, and that we were crazy for suggesting it, that we were crazy to, to consider it. That we were trying to drive a wedge between, um, our relationship, that we were vilifying him and that Did he ever do that? Well, not that he would never do it, but that just, it wasn't true. And that we had, we had bought into our mother's insanity mm-hmm. , and that, you know, that we just, you know, he was, you know, he, we were making him out to be this, this person, and these kids weren't his, and it just wasn't true. What made you think they were

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: The timeline? I would say, you know, it was just lined up perfectly from when we realized that they had been in a relationship, um, and the amount of time that he spent with this woman and her children. And, you know, I have stepchildren and lovely as they are. I really would not devote, you know, um, the amount of time. I mean, they're grown men now, but the amount of time, you know, that my father would devote to this woman and her children. And so over the years, along with the timeline and the kind of time spent,

Dr. Robin Stern: And then, and then that relationship came apart, and he was still spending time with the children, even after the romantic relationship with their mother ended, he was still invested in their lives and in that relationship, which I mean, we must have asked him a thousand times. Like

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: At one point, um, he had told me that they were having their individual struggles. This was maybe, I don't know, I would say 10 years ago, I, he had told me that they were having some personal struggles. And I said, well, do you think that could be a result of that? Perhaps you're their father. And on some level they know that. And this has become a struggle, psychological, emotional struggle for them. Mm-hmm. . Um, and of course I involved Julie in, in those conversations, and my father was so outraged by that suggestion that he did not speak to us for a year. So I think, you know, the punchline here, I think your listeners know the punchline, and that is about five years ago, he called us to tell us that in fact, one of the twins had done a 23 and me, or whatever, you know, and we all have heard these stories a million times now, especially those in the psychotherapy world, where in fact, it was shown that my father, our father was the also the father to these, to these men, to these young men. And, um, and this is something we had kind of known. So the point being that this is, this is kind of a long term gaslighting, would you say, Robin?

Dr. Robin Stern: Definitely.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: You know, it's interesting because, you know, the question being, did he also gaslight them? Yes. Did he gaslight those boys? Um, I'm gonna have to go with yes on that. Julie, what do you think?

Dr. Robin Stern: I think, yes. I don't know. Um, I ha I sense we met them once at a party, I think it was my father's birthday party, and he orchestrated a meeting. He was always trying to get us to meet them and invite them into our family. And we kept saying to them, to him, we have no, this is your ex-girlfriend's children. Why in the million years? Why, why would we embrace these people? Even though you knew the truth, you felt, you knew the truth. We felt we knew the truth, but we were being told constantly. We were crazy for thinking that Did you ever buy it? Did you ever think maybe we are crazy y Yeah, I questioned it. I questioned it for sure, because, so this is sort of jumping to another topic, but I'll bring it up now and maybe we can talk about it later.

Dr. Robin Stern: I think my father had created that dynamic in our family a long time ago. Like what he said was truth. I think I've doubted myself and my instincts, which is what victims of gaslighting do, right? I doubted myself and my instincts for years. So, you know, when he was so vehemently telling me the truth, what I air quotes for our listeners, the truth, um, I was like, okay, well, maybe it's true. Like, who says it's not true? You know, like, what do I know? I wasn't there. And beyond him telling you that it was what he was saying was true, it sounds like he had that, um, reaction that narcissists often get when they're, when they're challenged. Right. That outrage, when you would dare to challenge that little injury that is very big for people like that. I, yeah.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: An absolutely outsized, you know, reaction to even the suggestion, um, that, Hey, maybe these young men are struggling because there's a truth here that they don't know. And Yeah. Um, you know, it's, and you know, our father's still with us, and he's got many, many wonderful qualities, and we love him dearly. But the reality is, is that this is, I think, a perfect example of something that, um, that falls into this kind of other gaslighting category, which is this kind of long term denial and, um, of, of reality and asking other people to, you know, buy into it with you.

Dr. Robin Stern: And how, what was the, what was it like around you during that time? What did your mother say? ? Did you talk with her about it? Um, was she even willing to talk about it? Did you have people say to you, of course, they're his kids. Um, our mother really didn't have the capacity to talk about it. I don't think she had her own set of challenges with the ending of the marriage. Mm-hmm. . And I think she had been very traumatized by that. Yeah. Um, I think she chose to believe that they were not, I mean, there were times moments of clarity where she knew exactly what was happening, but I think for the most part, she decided to mm-hmm. believe that they were not, yeah. They were not my father's children. I was gonna say though, earlier that we did meet them, and in the time that, in the moment that we met them, the four of us together, it was at a birthday party for my father, which he had orchestrated. And we all knew, all four of us knew.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Do you remember that, Julie? I thought you were gonna tell the story of what happened when we walked into the party. So we walked into the party and we're all adults at this point, and Julie was walking in front of me, and they must have been in the room. They, they must have al they were already there. I guess maybe they were talking to my father and Julie stopped in her tracks, which created me needing to stop in my tracks. And she turned around and she looked right into my face and she said, they are our brothers. She knew just by, you know,

Dr. Robin Stern: We all knew. I, I just, I'm, I have the chills listening to this story, . Yeah. We all knew. All four of us knew. We never said it out loud, but all four of us knew. It was, yeah, it was, it was obvious. It was a feeling. It was a strong feeling. It was that they looked like you, there was a recognition. I mean, how would you say what made, you know, it was just that moment of knowing? Yes.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: What was that, Julie? I

Dr. Robin Stern: Almost felt it on a cellular level. Yeah. And yes, I would say yes to everything you asked. It was a feeling of knowing they definitely resemble my father. Um, there was a familial sort of, I can't describe it. It was a feeling, a feeling a really deep mm-hmm. and, and visceral feeling. Yeah. A deep truth. Yeah. And what happened when you saw them? Do you think they experienced the same? Have you talked to them about it?

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: We've never discussed it with them. I've had some contact with one of them who lives locally to me. They're absolutely lovely. Absolutely lovely. And I think that, you know, maybe in other circumstances we would have more of a relationship or a relationship with them. It's just that the history has been so painful for all of us, um, that it almost feels impossible. Yeah. Um, Julie and I talk about it, ceaselessly,

Dr. Robin Stern: . I can't imagine what their experience was like mm-hmm. , um, they come from a Christian family, my father's Jewish. They discovered then through this d n a test that they are 50% Jewish mm-hmm. , that their father is not their father. Mm-hmm. , and this is, they're in their forties at this point. I mean, this is their whole world, that their whole extended family on his side is not related to them. I mean, I can't, I can't even imagine what it created in their own lives. It's really amazing. So, so we've heard a couple of stories from my father about this, depending on his mood and, and the circumstances. He has told us at one point that he, um, had they, that he and his ex-partner had made a pact never to say anything because they thought it would be better for the boys.

Dr. Robin Stern: And other times he continues to deny that he ever knew. So we're not really sure, you know, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's growing older now, so I'm not sure if he remembers what he said at any given point about, about, or what reality he's choosing to live in at the moment. Ah, so well said. Wow. Unbelievable. , you know, it, as unbelievable as it is, I've, it is not the first time I've heard a story about people living with a father and finding out later on in their life that's not really my father, or people living with someone they thought was their stepfather and finding out later in their life, that person is really my father. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, you know, one of the things that Abby and I talk about, because, you know, we are siblings and we do a podcast together, and I think one of the things that strengthened our relationship as siblings is when you're living with a gas lighter, you need somebody to bounce reality off of mm-hmm.

Dr. Robin Stern: . Mm-hmm. Right? You need someone who shares your reality. Abby was my sounding board of this is weird, right? This is a strange, this doesn't feel true, does it? And mm-hmm. , you know, if I hadn't had her, I'm not sure if I would be functional mm-hmm. , because my reality would be so distorted. Yeah, yeah. Because you probably would've allowed yourself to be in his reality for some time, and then emerge, and then go back in, and then, but with each other, what a gift. I mean, what a blessing that the two of you have had each other. I mean, for many reasons, but certainly for claiming your reality, for knowing the ground you stand on. Uh, uh, just incredible. So what are the feelings that you had? I could imagine so many, but please tell me if you're willing.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Well, one of the kind of ironic, I always use that word ironically, and unironically incorrectly, um, , one of the kind of, you know, I don't even know what the word is, surprising, you know, uh, things about this is that when these d n A tests came back, my father was quite celebratory and wanted us to join in this celebration of his, you know, newly, let me put that in. Air quotes discovered paternity. Right. And instead of saying, listen, we gotta talk, like something has come to light. There was a, there, there was, this was kind of like a, a, an alternative kind of gaslighting. Like, isn't this amazing? Isn't this wonderful news? I mean, just absolutely stunning in the delivery.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, stunning. He, he just really inhabited that other reality and made it real so that then he could have all these extensions off of it. Like this joy in finding out, oh my God, this is amazing. When, wait a minute, that's just another lie. Mm-hmm.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: .

Dr. Robin Stern: And then when you layer on our resistance, um, which we both naturally had to this news, you know, we weren't like, you know, hooray, let's, you know, let's plan Thanksgiving, , we, um, we were made to feel like we were the problem because you were joyous. Of course, we were unwelcoming and unkind people and not a good family, and not doing the right thing by him. Not the fact that he had had an extramarital affair for years and years and years, and had children with another person that had nothing to do with , or that he had lied to you all these years. Right. Right. We were made to feel that we were bad, bad girls, not, not good kids by not being welcoming of this news. How did you deal with that? It must have been infuriating.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: We do a lot of , commiserating, do a lot of therapy. We do.

Dr. Robin Stern: I wonder you've been cracking up all these years, . I mean,

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: It's all revealed now.

Dr. Robin Stern: I mean, it just, right. Yeah. You know, sadly, I think had my father been more honest even way back at the beginning. Yeah. Um, had he been more curious, let's say for the sake of argument he didn't know, had he said to us, I don't know if they're my kids mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , you know, but if they are, I'm gonna feel this way about it. Yeah. And if they're not, I'm gonna feel this way about it. Mm-hmm. , or had he, you know, had he known, let's say he did, which he did, if he had come to us and said, you know, my girlfriend and I are no longer together, but I wanna tell you the truth about the situation. These people are my children and I'm trying to build a relationship. I think we probably would have at some point, gotten on that bus with him. Yeah. But the fact that he didn't just backfired on him. Mm-hmm. , I think, on both sides of his family. Well, there's something clarifying and, um, validating about truth, right? Mm-hmm. , so you didn't get it. How could you embrace what he was asking you to embrace?

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: I did not realize this was gonna turn into a therapy session.

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm feeling fantastic though.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: . I'm,

Dr. Robin Stern: I'm feeling cleaned. . So, looking back on it now, what would you say to children who are feeling gaslighted by their parent? You know, it's so hard. Your parents love you. Why would they do something like that? Mm-hmm. ,

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: There's no question that our father loves us, and that I think we feel loved by our father, you know, in, in all of his, you know, human shortcomings. Um, I would say, you know, uh, Robin, that is such a good question and so hard to answer. You know, obviously, if you can have, if you have, as Julie said, a sibling, that you can say, you know, this doesn't feel right, or, or anyone, a friend, um, anyone who's going to be able to validate for you, not whether these things are true or not true, but it's okay that you're having these doubts. It's okay that you, um, you know, you don't always have to believe your parents. Your parents are people. They have issues. They lie, they tell the truth. Um, and, uh, I don't know. Julie, what would you say

Dr. Robin Stern: That everything that you just said, I think if you're young, um, and you have siblings, that's your best resource, because they, as you said earlier, Robin, are living your reality. They're, they're really the only people mm-hmm. who are seeing that unit. You know, in a similar way to you, if you are a young adult or older, I would say try to make some space for the gas lighter tr try to approach them with kindness. Like, I wonder what would've happened if I, and, and Abby and I did do this to some degree, but maybe not as much as we could have to say, you know, if they are, it's okay. Mm-hmm. ,

Dr. Robin Stern: Like, like, nothing's gonna blow up if you tell us the truth. Mm-hmm. , like, I think that when we found this out, we weren't mature enough to have that conversation, and it, it got so soupy and so mucked up. And so, you know, the, the more time that went by, the worst it became, well, I would, you know, a ask you to have a little compassion for yourself. I mean, maybe maturity was a piece of it, but my goodness, I mean, you were living in a mind altering reality. I can't even imagine how much space and time that took up for the two of you growing up. You know, when you have a father who is, who has kids in another marriage, or you have a, a parent who, um, is having an affair. Those things are hard. But when you're living this reality that is constantly being denied when you bring it up, like that's gotta take up a lot of space.

Dr. Robin Stern: I had a lot of resentment, probably more than Abby did. Mm-hmm. , I had a lot of resentment that these other children were having probably a happier, healthier relationship with our father than we did. Yeah. And I carried that around for a long time. And now still mad . Mm-hmm. , no, hon, honestly, still a little mad about it, mostly because it's never been, you know, fleshed out and discussed. And, you know, those painful conversations have never been fully realized. And again, as Abby said, we love our dad. Like he's been a great dad in many ways. Like, you know, this is not a, oh, you know, a singular note person. Mm-hmm. . Right. Well, I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think it's important for people to know that gas liters are not, well, first of all, they're not born gas lighters.

Dr. Robin Stern: Secondly, they're not all evil doers, right? Mm-hmm. , this is something that it sounds to me like, um, and of course I don't know your father, so I wouldn't attempt to psychoanalyze him in any way, but it sounds like a story where he just couldn't face it. He couldn't deal with it, so he created another truth, right? Mm-hmm. And he couldn't live, we couldn't confront, he couldn't deal with being confronted about it. He couldn't deal with taking responsibility about it. He was afraid, perhaps, of losing you. I mean, we can make up all of these reasons. Mm-hmm. , but the truth is also that that was part of the picture. The other part of the picture that you looked at when you weren't thinking about that was the dad who, with whom you had a great time, or the dad who you loved, the dad who you knew loved you.

Dr. Robin Stern: So the whole picture was not dad, the gaslight was dad, and Yeah. He was a gas lighter. Mm-hmm. . Yep. Exactly. I think there was another family involved too. Like, we can't deny the fact that, um, you know, my father's girlfriend, she probably had a lot vested in the decision to tell or not to tell as well. Right. They made a pact, you said mm-hmm. , they made a pact. So I, there was probably conversation about protecting the kids, you know, you know, sparing them the pa I'm sure there was some version of it that made sense to them at the time. Right. And that stimulated all of this gaslighting. Yeah. Well, I guess the sense it made is the, is about the risk that they would've had to endure had they outed the truth. Mm-hmm. , because, you know, or at least they thought they knew what would happen if they persisted in the lie. Right. You wouldn't know. And so therefore you wouldn't be unhappy. Little did your father anticipate, I'm sure that you'd be preoccupied and feel like, what the hell is going on for most of your life? Or that we'd be talking about it on a podcast one day, , or that you'd be talking about or making a movie about it in five years from now, .

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Well, this is the blessing and curse of these d n a, you know, tests that have, you know, exposed so many families to these realities. I'm sure, Robin, you see it in your work. I see it all the time. I mean, I see it all the time. Um, and people got away with this stuff for centuries, , and now not so much.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I've had people come into my office and say, I just contacted my half sister who didn't know she had a half sister. Mm. I have a friend whose daughter just went to live with her half sister after finding out that their, in fact was a half sister. Oh, that's a, that's a nice story. Yeah. It was a happy ending.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: I don't know if ours does. I don't know if ours has a happy ending, but it also has, you know, what comes with this is an awareness of, and, you know, and, and, and raising my hand here, an absolutely imperfect, in many ways, human, but trying to be, not that, you know, trying to be, um, more, um, open and upfront with my own children, my adult children, um, when I look back on their childhoods and, and will say to them, you know, I, I, I apologize. I, I I was like this or did that, or behaved that way. Um, and because I want them to see something different, feel something different than what Julie and I felt that, you know, yes, I yelled too much. I have three sons, um, very close in age, Irish triplets. And, you know, I yelled a lot, let's face it.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: And, you know, I will always say to them, I know I yelled too much. And that was not a great way to handle, you know, a lot of stuff that was going on. Um, because I don't want them to, you know, question their reality. Like, yeah, we had a stressed, angry mom and who was maybe not fully equipped for the job , and not all the time, but you know, a lot, some of the time. Um, I don't want them to question that, that was part of their reality. So I try to talk about it. So I'm sure that that's a result of how we, how we were raised as well.

Dr. Robin Stern: And a gift to them. You know, Robin, you asked before about what advice we would give a kid going through this, and I don't know if we had great answers, but I would love to ask you, you know, being an expert on this subject, what, what could we have done or should we have done or could even do now to help? It is a great question and very layered and complicated in an answer, right? Um, because it is, it, it wasn't that you wanted to get rid of your father because he was a gas lighter and you just didn't wanna have anything to do with him. Some ways that would've been easier, but you had a dad who loved you, who you felt loved by, that's pretty extraordinary to be able to say, given everything else, right? Mm-hmm. . So there was a lot else besides that mess he made that he chose to deal with in that way.

Dr. Robin Stern: Um, and I, I think that you did the most, uh, wonderful thing by having each other. I mean, not that you chose that you had each other, but by being with each other in this, in your joint reality. Because the, what I know about victims and targets of gaslighting is that the most helpful thing they can do is to find somebody to validate their reality. You know, to have somebody else come into a situation and say, wait a minute. Like, I don't even recognize you anymore. You know, not in your situation, cuz you grew up with it, but like a friend coming to a friend who's being gaslighted and been isolating themselves or doing crazy things or, um, making up excuses all the time for their spouse or their partner, that that's not you. Like what is happening? Like, no, this is not your craziness.

Dr. Robin Stern: This is your spouse, your husband, your partner, no. Mm-hmm. . That's not real . I have a client who said to me, this is her words, she said, I fantasize about bringing you to my house. So, and you turning to me and saying, you're right. They really are crazy. People need that because when, when your channel of information is one channel and that's, you're listening to this and you're thinking like, this is not right, but there's no other voice and that voice who's telling you is a power person in your life, it's really hard to stand your ground.

Dr. Robin Stern: No. The tools that, that I talk about for, um, people going through gaslighting relationships, like writing down the script and seeing where it pivots, um, which I think is very useful. Not sure how that worked in your situation. I mean, it worked when you would say something and he would get enraged, right? No, no, no. Wait. It's no, it's not about how aggressive we're being. This is about your truth or not. Right. But i, i just, the developing of, um, and the conviction in your own reality is your strongest mm-hmm. , um, ally. Right. You may never get the other person as you didn't with your father to admit. But there is something healing or freeing, um mm-hmm. and Saturday making about knowing, I know I'm right, maybe you're gonna tell me that I'm not right, but I know I'm right. No, I, I worked with somebody for a while who told me that, um, who asked me whether or not I thought it was her fault that her husband was cheating on her because he told her that if she were able to travel with him, that he would not be cheating on her.

Dr. Robin Stern: But he needed sex. He was a man, men need sex. And, um, and so she, uh, wasn't willing to do this for him, so he had to cheat. So she said, well, Dr. Stern, do you think that, um, you know, it's my fault? And I said to her, so, you know, we've, you've been in therapy now for a while, what do you think I'm gonna say? And she said, well, I think you don't think it's my fault. And I said, well, can you tell me why? And she said, I can't tell you why, but I also don't think it's my fault. But I don't know how to explain it, but I don't think it's my fault. And so somehow, because the person who who is altering your reality is insisting with many ti when, many times with trappings and, and a good argument when you yourself perhaps can articulate it as well, because you've lost something.

Dr. Robin Stern: As your ego has been damaged, as your, your sense of reality has been damaged. You can't say why, but you know it to be true. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You bring up arguing, which is I find that gas lighters are great at arguing mm-hmm. and making their point and making their point and repeating it, hammering it home. One of the things that we noticed about our dad though was how infuriated he became when we questioned him. Is that typical for some people? Yes. Because he can't risk that you're gonna know the truth. The only way he can keep it up with the intensity that's probably building up inside of him, because he knows the truth, right. Is by putting up that wall. And so instead he goes into a different, um, uh, mindset of how dare they question me? So it becomes about that, how dare you question him about his reality rather than actually dealing with the reality. How dare you say that about me?

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: I would say completely, um, uh, out of, um, the realm of appropriateness, because I don't know your client, Robin, and but that's never stopped me from commenting. Um, she needs to run because this is so much more than her husband having an affair or, or one night or whatever he is doing. Oh my gosh. There's, uh, that, that story about your client just, you know, makes my hair stand on end because that's the least of her problems. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. I'm sure we could share many stories , where it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. Yes. Absolutely. That's the reality. It is heartbreaking. And even though, um, I could tell many stories that would be so, uh, so, uh, sick so extreme that they're surreal in a way we can think, I can't believe it. And we can all gather together and say, I can't believe it. Can you believe it? The truth is the pain that these women are suffering, mostly women, men as well, for sure. Um, but is, and I've said this, I know I've said this certainly on this podcast and many times and just in conversation, it's soul destroying. You know, it really tears you in a very deep way. Do you think that, and I'm asking for a friend,

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: or a sister

Dr. Robin Stern: , do you think that it's a pattern? So the victim of gaslighting is sort of always going to be the, maybe always is the wrong word, but more likely to be the victim of gaslighting? Again, I wouldn't say more likely, but I would say more vulnerable. More vulnerable, um, to the possibility. Only because, uh, it feels familiar. But that said, there are times where the fact that it feels familiar will make you run away in health, flight to health. Right? Like, I know what this feels like. I know this is gaslighting. Let me out of here.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: I'm curious, Robin, cuz this happened to me once, um, in my long career. I did have a client gaslight me, um, who came in and created an entire, um, you know, lie about his reality of his situation. Have you ever been gaslighted to your knowledge by a client?

Dr. Robin Stern: Not by a client, but by my ex-husband. And, um, I tell the story in my book, uh, that he was this really good guy Gaslight and he gaslighted me about, um, since you read my book, you know, that uh, he would always be late. And he was trying to convince me that the reason that I was upset was because I had a problem with time because my parents were uptight and they had a problem with time. And that's the way they taught me about time. And initially, I mean, it's always funny when I tell the story because I can't believe it. I was writing about gaslighting at the time and so I recognized it. It didn't matter though. It still happened to me. Cause over time he would say, no, this is not the way it is. What's the big deal if I'm a half hour late?

Dr. Robin Stern: Like, it's you who have the problem, your parents are so uptight. And so eventually when he would say it over and over and over and over, I would think maybe he's right. Hmm. Maybe there's another woman who's more flexible. I thought I was flexible. Maybe I'm not so flexible. Yeah. That's such a, that story is very resonant to me. And I think there is some relationship between passive aggressive behavior and gaslighting. When I hear that story that triggers sort of a, a bell in that, that, um, he wasn't saying Get off me, leave me alone. Right. That would've been the aggressive response to you, you know, complaining that he was late. Right. He was saying, oh no, you know, this is normal.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Yeah, she was the one. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: But he was saying, this is normal. This being late is normal. You're uptight. Right. My behavior is normal. Your behavior is abnormal. Abnormal. Right. And there's something passive in that response. Being late is passive aggressive. Anyway, so I think that's what made me link the two things together. So I'm just mindful of the time. I know I have a hard stop cuz I'm traveling from home today Oh, nice. From my friends with the dogs. And, um, uh, I would just like to, to ask you what your takeaway is from living the gaslighting for all these years.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: Well, I wish I could say that's the only way in which I've been gaslight. Um, but yes, there have been other situations and other relationships as well where I've experienced it. And maybe to ans that's, you know, the answer to your question, Julie, maybe, maybe there is more vulnerability there, as Robin said. Um, I think just trying to be mindful not to be that, not to do that and not to, uh, and to see what a mess that these things can become and wanting to live a cleaner, more transparent life, um, so that we don't have all of these, you know, skeletons lurking and, you know, that have such potential to hurt the people we love. Um, I would say, I would say that,

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I just, I wanna respond to Julie before I ask you that. Um, the fact that you so deeply want to trust someone is something wonderful about you, but it also is a thing that makes you vulnerable to gaslighting. Right? So knowing that, taking it forward and taking it into your life, just hopefully your self-talk can be a little kinder, you know? Um, I am somebody who wants to trust I'm trustworthy. I want to trust. Makes me a little vulnerable.

Abby Rodman & Julie Howard: I love that. Mm-hmm. ,

Dr. Robin Stern: What about for you, Julie? I think my takeaway would be that it's never too late to rebuild that muscle or that ability to listen to your own instincts and your own internal voice. That you're gonna make some mistakes along the way and it takes practice to stop and think, okay, what's really going on? How do I feel? What are my instincts telling me? You know, listening to that funny feeling that you have when you think something's not quite right, it takes time to rebuild it, but it's never too late. I, I agree with you and my takeaway is that let your feelings and that inner knowing be your guide. Let your feelings and your inner knowing be that friend of yours. And if you think there's something wrong or there's something that, you know, you're probably right. So I thank you Julie, so much for being on the show, and I thank you, Abby, so much for being on the show.

Dr. Robin Stern: Sisters cracking up. If you enjoyed this episode, listeners, please let us know on the website and I hope you will come back and I hope that we can continue this. And I'd love to be on your pod whenever you have time for another episode about gaslighting. I thank you for your vulnerability and your willingness to share your personal story, and I know that everyone listening found it meaningful. Certainly I did. Thank you so much. Thank you, Robin. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lenz, and me. The podcast is supported by Gabby Coagas and Solar Kangi, all of my work and my upcoming book is supported by Suzan Pettit, Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you. My listeners.