Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center For Emotional Intelligence and author of the best selling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interviewed fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone, and thank you for joining today's episode of the Gas Side Effect Podcast. I'm really thrilled to have with me today Dr. Paige Sweet from the University of Michigan. Paige, tell us what's your story, what brings you here?
Dr. Paige Sweet: Thanks so much for having me. Um, so I'm a sociologist, um, and I do work on gender and sexuality, and I really specialize in studying domestic violence. Um, and that's actually how I came across the topic of gaslighting, um, which people talk about pretty regularly in the domestic violence world. It's a common feature of abusive relationships. And so when I was working on my dissertation on domestic violence, I started talking to survivors about gaslighting, and that's how I got interested in the topic and started writing more about it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Really fascinating introduction. Um, when I was writing my book in 2007, I interviewed people in New York and in other cities who were working with survivors of, um, domestic violence and working at these shelters that women were escaping to. And what they told me at the time is that no matter how, uh, difficult it was for people to survive the physical abuse, what was really shattering was the gas lighting and the, and not knowing what reality was, not knowing that they could had ground to stand on anymore. So were you finding that as well, that among the other ways that people can abuse each other, uh, playing with somebody's reality has, has legs, has, um, a long term impact that's really difficult, if not impossible to, to move past?
Dr. Paige Sweet: I think that's absolutely right. I think, you know, culturally, we really tend to overemphasize physical violence when we think about what domestic violence is. And I think that that has a lot of negative effects. On the one hand, it means that when survivors seek help from outside sources, like from friends or family, or especially from police and courts and other types of, um, helping organizations, what they experience is often not legible as quote unquote real abuse. Um, because physical violence hasn't been the most important feature of that relationship. Um, and it's also really important because in research, we really tend to overemphasize physical violence in, in our measurements of abuse in our surveys, um, even in interviews in, in especially in crime data that's collected, collected about domestic violence, we really under, um, I guess we misunderstand the problem sort of fundamentally because we overemphasize physical violence.
Dr. Paige Sweet: And for the women I interviewed, it often wasn't the physical abuse that kept sort of haunting them after they had left abusive relationships. It was, it was the psychological stuff. It was messing with their mind, telling them they were a bad mother, accusing them of having affairs when they, when the men were actually the ones having affairs. Um, it was this kind of stuff that kept haunting them in part because they didn't understand that that would be considered real abuse. And they thought, oh, it's just my fault. This is only happening to me because we don't really have a sort of language to talk about that kind of harm and to take it seriously.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, or at least we didn't. And I we didn't, that you and I are, um, among the, uh, top few people who are making the change in that. So I know you talked in your article, um, that you have interviewed well over a hundred women. And I wonder, um, I have two many questions about that, but two I'd love to start with is how did you find those women and and what did you, uh, ask that allowed them to open up? Or what was your, what was their reason for telling you their story? And um, along with that then, what were your biggest aha moments?
Dr. Paige Sweet: Hmm. Yeah, that's a, a great question. It can be really tricky to do interviews about and to recruit people to talk about a topic that is really difficult to describe. The first time I did research on gaslighting, I was interviewing women who were using domestic violence services, and the interview was not really focused on gaslighting. It just started to come up so much that I ended up asking questions about it. So that time I was interviewing people who were in domestic violence support groups or staying at domestic violence shelters, that kind of thing. And basically it just became such a common feature of the interview that at some point the women would start talking to me about how their relationship felt, not real or like a different reality, or it was topsy turvy. It was like the twilight zone. It was like upside down, or it was cycles of craziness as one of the women I interviewed put it.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, and so because those descriptions started coming up so often I started asking a question that was something like, have you heard this term gaslighting? It's when someone tried to make you feel crazy, do you feel like that was something that happened to you? And every single person I interviewed in that study said yes. And so then I started asking more and more questions about it for the second project, which was really focused on gaslighting and psychological abuse more generally. I did create, um, sort of flyers on social media that we posted on Facebook, on Instagram that defined the term gaslighting and said, have you experienced something like this? And we got a really strong response, um, with people who wanted to talk about their experiences of gaslighting. And that study was more expansive because we interviewed people who had experienced GA lighting in intimate relationships, but also in professional relationships in the workplace, and also from their parents or from siblings and other family members. So that was a bit, um, it was a bit more broad in terms of recruitment, and that meant we got to sort of understand, you know, different features of gaslighting that aren't necessarily associated with what we would think of as an abusive relationship, but are rooted in the sort of context of the workplace, for example. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern:
Dr. Paige Sweet: About the workplace specifically? Yes,
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Yeah. I think one thing that I noticed during the interviews was that workplace, um, gaslighting often had to do with claims of racial discrimination. Um, so I'm thinking of one woman I interviewed whose pseudonym is Maya, who, um, experienced gaslighting at work in the sense that she was made to seem like this sort of, she was the only woman of color in her workplace. She was made to seem like whenever she made a complaint about the workplace, for example, she asked for there to be masks required at work. Um, it was during the pandemic. Um, she was made to seem like she was being sort of overly aggressive, too demanding her boss made her out to be sort of a killjoy in the workplace. Um, and he would do things like say, um, well, you know, you laughed at my joke about Covid. So you don't really take this seriously. This isn't what it's about for you. You just wanna exert control over the coworkers. Um, and so he would do things to try to kind of flip the script and make it seem like she was actually the one causing problems and being too aggressive. And Maya really felt that as the only woman of color in her workplace, he was sort of, you know, painting her to be this kind of loud, aggressive, demanding person.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Paige Sweet: I don't think she did. I think she really pushed back at every point. It was still damaging to her because she had to leave that job in the middle of the pandemic because it became too overwhelming. But she was a social worker. She had worked in a domestic violence agency before, so she was really well versed in that kind of psychological manipulation. So I think she kind of, you know, in the beginning she was a little bit like, what is happening? Like, why am I feeling so bad at work? Like, what is this? This isn't just like a normal disagreement with a coworker. This is my boss systematically trying to make me seem like I'm out of line. So I do think at first there was some kind of like confusion about what's happening or why do I feel so bad at work? Um, but pretty quickly she was able to see like, oh, he's using these tactics that abusers use, um, against victims to sort of establish domination and control in the workplace. Um, and I may be especially vulnerable to that as the sort of isolated woman of color in this setting. Um, and so I think she was able to see the dynamics pretty clearly, but it was in part cuz she was already, you know, pretty well educated about these kinds of dynamics.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Fascinating. You know, one of the things that, that you're reminding me of is, um, both in your description of what you were hearing, the words that people were using that were the kind of ephemeral, it's, um, it's like surreal. It's another reality. And also in this, uh, in your saying, uh, repeating what Maya said, I don't know what's happening and that kind of confusion, bringing it back to, to intimate relationships. Um, I've been having several conversations about the, just the concept of reality, right? How do you know once you have second guessed yourself, even for a minute, seems like it's a slippery slope. How do you know where the ground is that you're standing? And what I hear you saying about the workplace reminds me also, um, of that cloudy ephemeral vision or feeling about what's going on. And yet my experience with people in the workplace is that, uh, there's a different kind of investment.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: What is reality, you know? So, um, people would say all the time to me, uh, women I was interviewing who wrote books on emotional abuse, um, one in particular, I'm thinking about whose, uh, interviewees were on death row having been accused of being involved in a murder and using as their defense, having been gaslighted, having been manipulated to believe that if they didn't help their husbands, that they were in fact not really in love with them. And when they would tell their story, this is what I was told, so it was thirdhand, but, or secondhand, but, um, maybe thirdhand. Um, I, the story was, it's true though. He told me this is what love meant to him. So in fact, if I was not doing it then I didn't really love him. Isn't that right, Dr. Stern? And so trying to tease apart what, what is real and what you, what has been forced, if you will, into your brain, um, makes for that kind of salad brain, right? So from a outside of yourself contextual, uh, perspective, influences of a society, influences of gender, how do you think about reality now?
Dr. Paige Sweet: That's such a good question. Um, and it's so, it's so hard to pinpoint, you know, one moment or one, um, event that try that sort of turned the wheels toward this unreal reality state of an abusive relationship. I think it's so cumulative and it's all of these little things that you don't recognize or that don't seem important along the way. Um, and I think that's what a lot of the people I interviewed describe is this sort of, um, eroding of the self you had before you were with that person. And you're sort of grounding in a sense of self. I had one interviewee, um, who I call Susan. She said, I had a self before I got with him, I made choices and I knew myself, but it got to the point where I felt like there were witches around me, um, like distorting the sort of environment of the relationship, um, and just making her feel like she couldn't trust that self anymore.
Dr. Paige Sweet: And I think that that is part of what gaslighting does, is it, um, it, it damages your ability to trust yourself as a sort of interlocutor of your own experiences, as a, as an interpreter of your own situations so that something is happening to you and it feels icky or you get that feeling in the pit of your stomach like, something's wrong here, or someone's treating me badly. I might not have the words for it, but there's something that's sort of, doesn't feel right about this, but then you say, mm. But I misinterpreted that situation with him last week, um, and he told me that I was acting like a really crazy. Um, and then I felt really bad about it afterwards. So I probably can't trust myself now either. So it's like cumulative in this way that really cuts to the core of wanting to be a good partner, um, a good lover, all of these things that we really care about so deeply.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, it really cuts to the core of all of those things and sort of slowly erodes that. And I think, you know, when we think about the contextual social factors that make that possible, I think of a few things. One is that I think gender is a big part of it. I think that, you know, for the women I interview, they get the larger social message that women are too emotional, unreliable, can't make sort of rational decisions, that masculinity is the holder of reason and femininity is associated with irrationality over emotionality. Um, and so that just, that just reinforces it, right? It makes it pretty easy, I think, for men to gaslight women in a way that it might be harder for women to gaslight men or along other dimensions. Um, so I think that's one thing. I think also in general, there is a way in which social power kind of functions this way.
Dr. Paige Sweet: We can think of racism as functioning this way, I think on a large scale, trying to convince us everything as normal. Even we know things our discriminatory and oppressive. So trying to convince us that actually things are okay, well no, you didn't get discriminated against that work because we have this diversity, equity, and inclusion initiative and we're actually a really inclusive workplace. So this sort of, this sort of way in which kind of invisible forms of power operate by trying to convince us that the reality we're perceiving is not, is not in fact reality. That may be just part of how social domination works by messing with our sense of reality. Um, and I don't know how, how to answer the question of, of like how you know, which reality is real, but it does seem like for the people I interview, there's a sense, right, that like something's going wrong or feels off, there's like a little bit of a punch in the gut or a twinge or something that says like, I'm being treated badly in this situation.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, and I think, you know, being isolated really affects, affects someone's ability to follow that gut feeling. So if I have that gut feeling and I tell my, my friend, this thing happened to me, what do you think about this? She might confirm, she will probably confirm my gut feeling that something went wrong in that situation. If you are extremely isolated, let's say in an abusive relationship, you don't have someone to give you that counter-narrative or no one else is really accessing the strange reality that's going on in your relationship dynamic. And so that kind of isolation and intimate relationships can be really scary because you don't have that counter-narrative about what's going on
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. And, and what you're saying is so important, and thank you for, for saying it so clearly for our listeners, um, the, it reminds me of why there was so much more gaslighting during the pandemic because people were that much more isolated and often stuck in a house with no escape from the person who was forcing their reality on, uh, on the gas. It. Um, I'm interested again because of your different perspective than mine on the, the small societies we grow up in, in like our families or our communities and have how those, uh, different contexts influence or help us to build or not to build confidence in our, in our, uh, own perception and interpretation of reality. And I'm thinking of the obvious, uh, grocery store at five o'clock, parents saying to kids, and I've said this before probably on this podcast too, um, you're not hungry, you're tired, or you don't hate your little brother. You love your little brother. And when you grow up, then thinking, I thought I was hating my brother, or I thought I was hungry and, but my mommy loves me so much and she knows better than me. And do you grow up, can you grow up in your opinion, in a, a world where questioning your reality just as part of your norm growing in that way? Or is it only in the, uh, in the beginning of a gaslighting relationship from your own experience where you begin to be shaky about what you're perceiving?
Dr. Paige Sweet: No, I think that's such an important question. And I do think the people I interview often feel that their early life experiences in their families really primed them, um, to not, you know, for the first time their partner was abusive to them or they noticed something going wrong, they noticed someone denying their reality that their early life experiences with their family really primed them to sort of go along with it rather than question it. I think we absolutely normalized that type of thing, especially with children. And a lot of the, um, the people I interview feel that they saw, even if it wasn't abuse, saw kind of similar dynamics in their own families, um, maybe, you know, one parent doing it to another. And so it sort of seemed like a, I don't wanna say normal, but normalized maybe way of interacting in an intimate relationship.
Dr. Paige Sweet: And I think that absolutely shaped their ability to say like, no, absolutely not. I'm not gonna put up with this. That's much harder to do if you see that as sort of like a normal feature, um, of intimate relationships. So I absolutely think that that's part of it. I also noticed a lot of people using in, in intimate relationships, abusers will often use those early life experiences against their partner, sort of as part of the GA lighting process. So like, well you're not really mad at me, you have daddy issues cause your, you know, dad did this to you when you were a child. So kind of using the language of psychology and sort of early childhood trauma to sort of de-legitimize their partners, very rational, normal emotional reactions to things in the relationship. Um, and so it can get extra confusing because you trust your partner and you maybe share these, these early life things with your partner and then they end up getting used as sort of part of the destabilizing process.
Dr. Robin Stern: Sure. And after all, why would your partner who loves you and is there for you, want to destabilize you?
Dr. Paige Sweet: Right, exactly.
Dr. Robin Stern: I had my own experience with, um, being gaslighted by my ex-husband. Um, and uh, note the X of course
Dr. Paige Sweet: Right.
Dr. Robin Stern: Beginning to think, is it possible? Am I really overreacting? So what if he's 15 minutes late, 20 minutes late, a half hour late? Mm-hmm.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Or you're even making me think about this issue of sort of that that we learn from a young age. I think girls learn often to be very accommodating, to be the one who's willing to say like, oh no, I'll make this compromise. You know, it's okay if we don't go to the place I want for dinner cuz I need to be the like nice girl in every situation. I think we really learn that and there are some good things about that. I don't wanna say that that's a good thing. Yeah. Um, it can be, you know, make you very nice to be around, but it can also make you, I think, and this has certainly happened to me, um, not stand out for my own needs in relationships and we can see how that can absolutely play a role in gaslighting because we're the one who's sort of expected to make it work.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, we're encouraged to see from other people's points of view more than men are, I think. Um, and so I think there's all sorts of ways in which those values that you really have and that you've been socialized to have, um, really come into play, um, and maybe create some vulnerabilities. Now, I still think someone else is doing it. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes not. But I do think subconsciously or consciously, people often know that you're the type of person who will say like, oh, maybe I am wrong about this. Um, maybe I'm the one, like, I wanna take responsibility and make things better. I'm a fixer or I am a pleaser, or whatever it is. Um, and can kind of push you into that. Um, I also think there are some, you know, you mentioned earlier the sort of like small societies that we're all a part of, and I, it reminded me of some women I interviewed who were in religious communities and their partner would say things like, you know, you're being ungodly by, by questioning me in this way or doing things to sort of, um, manipulate someone's community values, I guess.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, I interviewed someone who was in a polyamorous relationship and it was really a value for her not to be jealous of her partner's, other relationships that was a value that they shared in their community, um, but then that was used against her consistently in the relationship. So again, we have like, you know, values that we come up with in our relationships or in our small communities that we really invest in together. And that can feel good. That's like a, a source of social solidarity often to share values with other people. Um, but they can also turn into weapons, um, in these kinds of relationships.
Dr. Robin Stern: I think that's such an important point. So if you are with someone and that person doesn't share your values, it's very likely you're going to hear, and that person is a gas lighter or that person is uncomfortable if they're not in power. So power and control is likely to happen. Um, you are likely to hear about your values, the, the, uh, something wrong with your values as a way to manipulate you into their point of view.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, can you talk more about those little societies? What else do you notice? I think that's so fascinating. Mm. Shared values being so important.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Yeah. Um, let me see if I can think of some other good examples of that. I mean, one of the things that is pretty consistent across the interviews that I do is that our sort of social and cultural investment in motherhood as an identity for women gets used against them in relationships. So this idea of trying to convince someone that they're not a good mom or using the kids, um, and telling the kids that like, mom's crazy, um, or like mom needs some help, um, that kind of stuff gets used in intimate relationships a lot. That's not sort of a small society, that's a big society answer. Um, but it's one of the things that's most consistent across my interviews is that sort of like attacking someone's identity as a mother, um, being used as part of the gaslighting process and part because we're very, you know, we're very vulnerable about that because it's such an important social identity for so many
Dr. Robin Stern: People. Right. We're so, because we're so invested in it. Yeah, absolutely. The the other piece that I wanted to talk about that you did talk about in your article and I'm very interested in is the shame involved. And I, um, so many people I've treated long into, or well into the gaslight effect, uh, when they were feeling that their had gone beyond difficult to soul destroying and that they didn't recognize those same strong selves. They used to be said that they were kept in it by themselves, um, because of shame that they couldn't talk about it to anyone else because nobody would believe them. Here. They were these successful, competent together women who had allowed themselves, even though they didn't allow themselves, they felt they were manipulated into it, but in fact they were there. Uh, they couldn't talk about it. And, um, other people who were shaming them when they did become, um, when they did begin to vocalize it, hopefully when people reach out to you, to their friends, their friends are saying, oh my God, this is crazy. Get out. He's crazy. But if people are saying instead, like, what's wrong with you? I, I can remember somebody telling me that their relative said what? Why would you ever expect to have a nice conversation with your husband? Like, what's wrong with your generation?
Dr. Paige Sweet: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Paige Sweet: I think that's such an important question. I've been thinking more and more about shame as I do this research. It's so important. It's generally important when you study gender based violence in general. We know that, you know, rape and domestic violence victims experience a great deal of shame around victimization a sense that what happened to them was their fault. They must have been able, you know, they should have been able to do something differently if only they hadn't made that decision to have the last glass of wine that the sexual assault wouldn't have happened, et cetera, et cetera. We know that shame is just such a huge part of being a victim in general, but I think still we often think of shame as like an in, you would be the expert on this, but as a sociologist I'll say, we often think of shame as being like an internal emotion, but we really experience shame through the gaze of other people. We really learned that in accumulative way through institutions, through social messages, through people's responses to us when we are vulnerable with them. And this just becomes this like totally isolating force for victims of gas lighting. I think the sense of shame, um, that they made decisions that precipitated this, that they kept going back to the situation. So it must be their their fault that it got so bad, um, that they must have been participating in this dynamic rather than it being someone doing something to them. Um, right.
Dr. Robin Stern: So it ju and it feeds itself because then when they feel that way, they're too ashamed to reach out.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that abusers often use this, right? Gaslight use this domestic violence abusers use this, this sense of responsibility and shame that we have for what's happening to us is so common. So I'm thinking of this common strategy in, in gaslighting dynamics where someone sort of flips the script on you and makes you out to be the one who's abusive, the one who's manipulative, the one who's controlling. And this really instilled a lot of shame. So I'm thinking of someone I talked about in the article who I called Summer, um, was her, her boyfriend would sort of needle her with insult, then get her to get her to be upset. He would tell her about his affairs with other women. He would say they're better mom than her, they're better cooked than her. He likes having sex with them more than her.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Um, and then she would get upset and she would, you know, yell or store out or I don't know, throw a pencil or something like that. And then he would say, wow, you're really going psycho. I cannot believe you're acting this way. You're so abusive, you're really outta control. I'm a little bit scared right now. Meanwhile, he had strangled her, punched her, landed her in the hospital, threatened her with guns. All of these things had happened already in the relationship. So we know that he wasn't afraid of her in the way that she was afraid of him. Right. But he would say, you're going psycho. Um, you're doing all these things and really created this sense of shame for her these moments. And then again and again, he would come back to this event later on in the relationship. Well, remember that time that you pulled the, the frame off the wall because you were so mad that I had slept with someone else. Um, remember that time you did that? Like you're really the violent one. And then she would feel so ashamed that she had acted that way, that it really had the effect of sort of keeping her in the relationship and keeping her quiet.
Dr. Robin Stern: I have such a similar story that came to mind about a woman who went out to dinner with her boyfriend, um, on her birthday and, and, uh, at the end of the meal she was in tears and, and he said, oh, I'm so happy to see that you're crying with tears of joy that I took you to a favorite restaurant. And, and she said, um, yes. And also, I miss my family. It's my first birthday away from my family. And he went crazy at the table through the silverware, broke a dish, and she started crying and she ended up, by the end of dinner, which was the event that brought her into therapy at the end of dinner, she was on her knees in the restaurant begging him to forgive her
Dr. Paige Sweet: Wow.
Dr. Robin Stern: For ruining dinner. Wow. And that incident then kept coming up in their relationship where he said, can you imagine what you looked like on your knees begging for forgiveness? Like, what do you think other people in that restaurant thought of you? You should be ashamed of yourself. He actually used the words, wow. Ashamed of yourself. What kind of person, what kind of sick are you that you were on the floor begging for forgiveness after you ruined your own dinner? Mm-hmm.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. People would write to me and say, have you been in my living room
Dr. Paige Sweet:
Dr. Robin Stern: Are you, are you a fly on the wall? Right. Because I was naming an experience and you are writing about it this year in, in the larger context was such an important gift for not only those of us working in the space as therapists and, and educators, but also for people going through it. Mm. People wanna tell their story. You know, I I I really am so happy to, to know that you've reached out to people and they were willing to tell their story because it doesn't surprise me, and yet it just heartens me to know that you gave them that space as well.
Dr. Paige Sweet: Thank you so much for saying that. I mean, the response is really overwhelming when, when the, when something gets published about this. So when I had this article on Scientific American come out, um, you know, the response was really overwhelming with people emailing me their own stories and just being like, huh, I didn't know that this thing I was experiencing had this name. And I think you were probably one of the first people to ever do that. And I think that is, it really is powerful. We know that naming is a powerful sort of social and psychological intervention to give them one, a sort of container to understand what they've been going through. But I think you really see that, um, you really see that in this case, in this really dramatic way because gaslighting is so deeply confusing.
Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Paige Sweet: So I am working on a book about gaslighting from a sociological perspective. Oh, exciting. Yes. In which I'll be drawing from these interviews to talk about many of the, the themes that we've talked about today, sort of some of the social context, um, and issues of marginalization and inequality that make gaslighting so common and so effective against certain kinds of people. Um, and so I'll be, I'll be writing that book in the next year or two and it'll come out with Princeton University Press sometime, um, in the next couple of years. So I'm really excited about that. It'll give me a chance to sort of share people's stories and in hopefully a, a sort of longer format so I can give more context and really help people understand the various aspects of someone's sort of life history and social context that make this such a sort of devastating force in their lives.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I'm so glad you're doing that and I can't wait to read it and hopefully talk to you along the way and, uh, maybe there's an opportunity for us to do some research together as well. That
Dr. Paige Sweet: Would be so great. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I'm such a fan of your work and so happy to be here.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you. And, um, look for my book when it comes out at the end of February. It's a workbook. Great. So it'll help people take a deeper dive and you'll see that some of the, you'll see some resonance to something that we talked about today when I talk a little bit about pathological accommodation in Wow. Great. And help people to understand what the difference is between being a nice person and accommodating and actually, um, when it becomes a problem for you. Oh, I can't wait
Dr. Paige Sweet: For that. I'm so excited.
Dr. Robin Stern: Wonderful to have you with us page, Dr. Page Sweet Look for her book in a couple of years on gaslighting from a sociological lens. And if you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcast and at robinstern.com. Thank you for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found today's podcast helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter with the handle at Dr. Robin Stern. The Gaslight Effect podcast is brought to you by The Gaslight Effect Production Company. This podcast is produced by Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Mel, Gabby Caoagas, and Omaginarium Marketing LLC.