Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center For Emotional Intelligence and author of the best selling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interviewed fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. Today my guest is Lucy Rose. Welcome to the podcast, Lucy.
Lucy Rose: Thank you very much. It's lovely to be here.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, where you're from, obviously not from New York City. Just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Lucy Rose: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I'm Lucy. Um, I was born and bred in Hartfordshire, so just north of London. Um, I, I'm in my late twenties now, 27, um, almost 28. Um, and I am a wedding photographer. My job is amazing and I love it. Um, and it's all about love, which is also something I love. Um, but yeah, that's me really. Um, nothing much else to say about that.
Dr. Robin Stern: So, Lucy, it's been sometimes since we first spoke, and, uh, I'd love for you to tell our listeners why you reached out to me to begin with, and then ultimately why you said yes to being on this podcast. And I think those are, your answers will be related one to the other.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. So, um, so I, long story short to start with, um, when I got out of a, a relationship that I was particularly unhappy with, I, uh, started seeing a therapist. Now, within the first 10 minutes of being with my therapist and explaining my story to her, she mentioned the word gaslighting. Now, this was never a word that I had heard before. Um, and she told me to go away and look it up. So that's what I did, which is when I came across, um, Robins, um, book, which completely changed my life. It really did. Um, so when I initially contacted, you know, contacted you, um, my, my aim was, well, first and foremost to thank you because you really did help me realize that it, it wasn't me that was the problem. Um, and it, it completely changed my life in ways that, you know, my therapist wasn't able to do.
Lucy Rose: And it made me realize that I wasn't alone as well. Um, but unfortunately because I'm not alone, um, I also wanted to raise awareness because this is something that's happening in so many people's lives. Um, and, and in the book, you know, it describes not just sort of relation romantic relationships, it's work relationships and everything. Um, so my main aim was to, to raise awareness of, of the little signs and the little things that happen in daily life that might just be taken as a, an off comment or a bit of banter, um, but make people realize that actually, you know, it's not right. Um, and, and something needs to happen to, to, to sort of happen to help really. Um, and that's, that's, you know, what's brought us to here, really. I mean, it's been a, a, a long sort of couple of years now. It's, I think it's about three years since I first contacted you now. Um, but like I said, the main aim is to, to raise awareness and to tell people, you know, if you are, if you are noticing you are in these kind of relationships, you're not alone. And you know, there is a way out. Um, and that's, that's what I'm here to do, really.
Dr. Robin Stern: So, Lucy, first of all, thank you for reaching out to me to begin with, and so generous of you to, to want to tell your story and really to, to keep up with our relationship over these last three years to ensure that you are part of podcast launching or anything else that I might be doing that where you could tell your story and, and you could help others not to, uh, go through the pain that you went through and to recognize earlier on the signs of gaslighting. Because of course, as you said, you're not alone. So tell us, start from the beginning and tell us your story, if you will.
Lucy Rose: Of course. So I met, I met a man. Um, I will admit we did meet online because that seems to be how it happens now. Um, my story began just as my parents were breaking up. Now, this fueled what happened in the years to come, which I've now noticed. Um, it actually made my experience a lot worse. So to put into a little bit of context, um, the day that me and this guy made our relationship official was the day that my dad walked out on my mum. So that day for me was absolutely heartbreaking. But at the same time, I felt like I had this new, exciting relationship. Someone who was gonna be there for me, someone who was gonna take care of me no matter what happened. I was safe. And that's really, you know, that was, that was the positive that I took out of that day, was that I wasn't gonna be alone
Dr. Robin Stern: Here. You were feeling so vulnerable and hurting and, um, with someone who you were about to make official in your life and, and he seemed like someone you could be safe with.
Lucy Rose: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so that's, that's how my story started, basically. Um, and one of the things that we've spoken about was when was the first time that I noticed something wasn't quite right? Um, and I've thought about that question so much over the years. Um, and my answer to that is our very first date, our very, very first date. Um, so we went to a restaurant, you know, we went out bowling and then we went to a restaurant, which is a pretty standard date from where I come from. Um, and when we were sitting in the restaurant, you know, I just, I'd not long finished university. Um, and before that I went to, obviously went to school, graduated from school, and I'd made this, this chair. Now, to me, this was quite an impressive thing. Um, I was very, very proud of this.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's what you mean, that you made, you made a chair.
Lucy Rose: Yes. Yeah. So it was a hanging chair. It was a big egg chair in the shape of an egg. And, and it took a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of passion to make this chair. And I was incredibly proud of it. And so as a new relationship, I wanted to impress him with my skills and what I'd done in the past. So I showed him a picture of this chair. Um, and bear in mind, this was the first time I've met this man, and he quite literally turned his nose up at it and said, Oh, well that's not great, is it? Now? I think at the time it did shock me his comment, because, you know, you think, Oh, okay, that's not quite what I was expecting. Um, but I think I took it as a little bit of a flirty comment, you know, when they say, like, in the playground, when the boys push the girls because they like them and things like that, I think
Dr. Robin Stern: Or pull their pigtails.
Lucy Rose: Because
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So bring us back to your first date, if you will, and, um, paint the picture for us. What you, you walked in, you met him, you felt, what did you feel, what did you feel? What, what'd you initially talk about? Where did you go? How was, I think you had a meal together.
Lucy Rose: We did. Yeah. So at first we went bowling. So I mean, even before we'd even done any of those activities, um, we were in the car park. I mean, this is taking us right back to the very start. We were in the car park. Um, he was already there and I was parking, um, and we were on the phone at the time because we spoke a lot on the phone a lot. But there was a lot of conversations over the phone
Dr. Robin Stern: Even before you met.
Lucy Rose: Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and again, that was a bit of a red flag because he would expect me to pick up the phone if I didn't pick up the phone. Something was wrong sort of thing. Um, but anyway, we were on the phone as I was parking, and obviously I was concentrating cuz I was parking. And he was saying to me, You're not looking at me. Why are you not making eye contact with me? And I was sort of saying, Oh, you know, well, I'm a bit nervous and I'm just parking the car. Well, why aren't you making eye contact? So before I'd even got out the car, there was already a, an atmosphere, let's call it.
Dr. Robin Stern: And what was happening on the inside while this atmosphere was building on the outside? What did you feel?
Lucy Rose: I was just very nervous and I'd, I mean, my previous relationships hadn't lasted very long. You know, I went through uni, I went through quite traumatic experiences through uni. So I was sort of in that time desperate to, to be loved, really. I know it sounds quite sad and cheesy, but I, I really was
Dr. Robin Stern: Very normal.
Lucy Rose: Yeah, absolutely. I see that now. Um, and I was very nervous and, you know, I, I hadn't necessarily picked up on the, why aren't you answering the phone sort of thing, um, to start with. But to me it felt quite nice to be wanted. Um, but I was incredibly nervous to meet him. But it was, it was the first time I'd ever met him. So I was just, you know, as everyone is, um, when they're meeting someone for the first time. Um, so then, yeah, we got out the car. Um, there was an awkward hug as there is when you're meeting someone for the first time. Um, and then we went bowling to start with. Um, now it was, it was awkward, um, but we just kind of got on with it didn't, but bowling didn't last very long. Cause when there's only two of you, you'll constantly, you know, there's no time to sit and chat. It's not, not the best first day. Um, and then we went into the restaurant, um, which is then when we sat down and chatted and, and, you know, I thought it went well apart from the off comment about the, the chair. Um, I thought it went pretty well.
Dr. Robin Stern: There was the off comment about the chair, and then there had been that off comment about you're not making eye contact. And so just like checking off these off comments and dismissing them because dismissing them, because
Lucy Rose: Dismissing them, because I was, I was so excited that someone was so into me and that it felt like someone really wanted my attention and they really wanted to speak with me and be with me. That, you know, I hadn't had that before. I, I really hadn't, looking back, I hadn't had that sort of attention from any guy before.
Dr. Robin Stern: More important than those off comments. It's a very basic human need be, loved to be seen, to be heard, to be wanted.
Lucy Rose: And this was before any of my parents, you know, breaking up had even come to, to light. And there was, there were no problems at home at the time. So it wasn't like I was, you know, desperately seeking, uh, a partner to go through that with, you know, none of that was even in, you know, in sight yet. Um, so it was purely me just looking for someone to love me, basically. Um, and like, yeah, like I've said, just the attention from someone and that's what we crave, isn't it? Um, someone to love. And so I dismissed these comments, just, just thought nothing of it really. Um, but obviously when I look back now and when I think of other people's experiences, you know, if in the back of their head they're thinking, Oh, that comment wasn't right, you know, I want them to understand that, you know, don't dismiss that as an off comment, obviously give people a chance. Some people might just be saying it as a bit of banter or, or things like that. But, you know, it's always sort of kept in my mind and even to my relationship now, um, there are sort of mannerisms that I look for, you know, changes in attitude and stuff like that, that I do keep in my mind. So even today, it's something that I've trained myself to look for, even in relationships, you know, with colleagues and, and with staff members and things like that, that kind of attitude.
Dr. Robin Stern: So, just to, to, uh, be super clear about this and specific for our listeners, I hear you saying that when something feels, when you feel like there's something wrong, there's something wrong, you may not know what it is right away, but if you feel like it's, you are receiving a message that is hurtful, that you don't have to second guess yourself, it's hurtful.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's something I wish I knew from the start. Now I've, I've always been known as being too nice
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, you're bringing up a really important moment in a lot of first dates when people, uh, find that they're in gaslighting relationships and look back on their first dates. And that is that sometimes somebody will say something off, or a little, what you are saying is a little bit silly, and, and you're thinking, Well, I wonder if it was just, um, his way of bantering, or I wonder if, um, he's just a little bit nervous himself. And what I find so interesting about that is that you're wondering about the person's motivation rather than thinking to yourself, I don't wanna be spoken to like that, no matter what his motivation, You know, it's interesting that we don't take that first step. I don't like, this doesn't feel right. He just put me down. He, he's causing me to second guess myself. I don't think I wanna date somebody who causes me to second guess myself. And yet we're human and we all make mistakes. And so we're, we're disposed positively disposed as women to give someone a second chance.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. And then one thing I would say is, looking back on it now, you know, when you first meet someone and they're happy and they're nice to you and they've got a certain way of speaking, maybe a certain way of looking at you, um, that
Lucy Rose: And I'd get people saying to me, Oh, he's really lovely. But I never, ever, ever saw that face when we were alone, because it was constant. His, his, his, he just, it was like he took off his mask. It really was. And I saw that from the very first date. So I would say that's definitely a telltale sign as well. You know, look out for that, you know, if he changes his, the way he's talking to you or the way he looks at you mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So you're generously giving our listeners important information. It's not just what someone's saying, but the way they're looking at you, the way they're saying it. And that shift from somebody connected and, and appreciating you to someone who's suddenly cold and, and a little bit distant. So when you noticed that, what did you think? Do you remember that moment for yourself?
Lucy Rose: I remember the moment it happened because it was, it was the first date when we sat down and we were eating and chatting, and we were just talking about normal life and what we did at school and how our university was. And as soon it just gradually happened throughout, it was as if, in his mind, the only way I can describe it is if, if in his mind he was sort of reeling me in. So, you know, I've, I've put myself out there as a lovely, lovely man. Now she's here and now I've got her, and that's it. And it was like, in his mind, he was reeling me in
Dr. Robin Stern: And now I've got her, and that's it. And
Lucy Rose: She's not gonna leave because I'm gonna make her feel like I'm the only person she can depend on. It was like, it was as if from that very first date, he, he'd hooked me effectively. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: But So reeling you in with some of that, um, seductive travel, uh, conversation and the fact that you have something in common mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: So he was giving you something, and then how did he use that against you?
Lucy Rose: He would say, you know, he would just buy me random things here and there, and I'd, you know, obviously be really appreciative of it, but eventually it, it came to, Well, I've, I've got no, I've got no money left. Now. You've, you've taken it all. I've given it all to you. Where's your, you know, what are you gonna do for me? Sort of thing. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: You. And did you believe that?
Lucy Rose: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Dr. Robin Stern: That was your fault. Mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: Yeah, absolutely. So when it all first happened, um, and I was told, um, off the breakup by my parents, um, I called him and I explained what happened. Obviously I was very, very distressed at the time. Um, and he came and picked me up. Um, and that was the very start of him trying to turn me against my mum. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: And was that usual in your relationship to withhold comments or information so that you wouldn't anger him?
Lucy Rose: Yeah. So to, to start with, I would try and defend myself. So if it was, if it was a quick comment about how my hair looked or what I was wearing at the very start of the relationship, I'd say, Oh, well, I like it. Or, Oh, you know, I, I thought you'd like this, or, you know, I'd put my hair in this way because I thought you'd like it. And then as it went on in the relationship, I then started to not make a comment because it wasn't worth the argument. And then as it went on in the relationship, I was then saying, Nope, you are right. I look stupid, or No, you're right. I shouldn't have brought that. No, you're right. I shouldn't have worn that.
Dr. Robin Stern: You were saying those things, were you believing them? Yeah, you
Lucy Rose: Are. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: How did he convince you?
Lucy Rose: Just by saying things like, Well, if I can see how ridiculously look, everyone else must, um, he would use his mum a lot. So I held his mum in quite higher rather as well, because she took me in when, when I'd, after he was sort of saying all these bad comments about my mom, my mom and my relationship got really bad, really, really bad to the state that I had to move out of my mom's. Um, and for about a week, his mom took me in. So it was like having a, an adoptive mom in a way. Um, and he would use her against me. He would say, Well, mom thinks that looks stupid as well. Um, or for instance, I've got tattoos. Um, and he'd say, Oh, my mom, my mom said that looks stupid. Why did you get it? And I know she wouldn't, she might have said these things, but looking back now, um, she, she might have been the root of the problem. Um, but she very much used it against me. And I, I thought, Wow, okay, okay, I'll stop wearing that. Or I'll constantly keep all my tattoos hidden, or things like that. And then, then it came to him buying me clothes, um, that I really didn't like, but I would wear them because that's what he wanted me to wear. Um, I'd changed, I would change my hairdresser because he said, Oh, if you go to this one, it'll be better. If you do this with your hair, you'll look better.
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: But
Dr. Robin Stern: So he was in charge of a lot of your decisions over time?
Lucy Rose: Massive, massively. He was in charge of, of everything. Um, at the very end, every move I made, who I spoke to, what I spent my money on, um, what I wore, um, how I spoke as well was a big thing for him. So I grew up in a family where, you know, speaking in a silly cutesy language wasn't, wasn't a thing. We didn't do it in our house, you know, we, we grew up, me and my sister grew up very, very fast in our household, and we were very mature, um, before our years, whereas he was very cutesy with his mom. So even if I answered the phone and just said, Oh, hello, how are you? He would put the phone down and I would think, Oh, we've been disconnected. So I'd pick the phone up again and he'd say, Well, you sounded really grumpy. I'm not talking to you until you speak to me like you want to speak to me. So I had to put on this cutesy voice to be able to talk to him. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so when, during the time that that process was happening, where he was having more and more control over who you were in the world and what you did and thought, um, do you have a, uh, a running dialogue with yourself? Cause you're describing what a typical course of gaslighting, sadly, is. Like, you know, you someone, you're vulnerable for whatever reason, in your case, you wanted to be loved, just like we all do. But you were in a moment in time where that was even more important. And he said some things, but because of your attraction and your need for a relationship, you kind of just ignored them and, and went for the, he's a photographer, he travels. It's great. Right? Yeah. And yet you saw things going on. You saw him shift using different, a different facial expression with you. Yeah. Different tone of voice with you mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: I did. I, we had a very, about halfway through our relationship, it was, I remember it as clear as anything. He'd come over, I'd made him his favorite meal. I'd put so much effort into everything, and he was being incredibly moony with me. And he wasn't talking to me. And something in me was thinking, you know, I mean, I was halfway into the relationship. I was, I was completely in it. I was in love with him and everything, and I was completely dependent on him. But something in me said, What are you doing? Why are you putting all this effort into something and being treated like this? Why are you allowing it? And I said to him, I've had enough. I really have had enough. You need to leave. So he laughed and said, Yeah, whatever. Okay. And he left my house. And now, as far as I'm aware, that meant right.
Lucy Rose: He's gone. Okay, We're, we're back. You know? And I, I instantly felt better. And then he called me about five minutes later and said, Have you stopped being silly now? And I said to him, What do you mean? And he said, Well, you just, you just got angry over absolutely nothing. You're being really silly. Mm. And so we met up at a coffee shop and I said to him, You know, the way you treat me is awful. It's really horrible, and I'm not standing for it anymore. Um, and I mean, this was at a point where I had nothing or no one, you know, my parents were putting up. Um, I was really struggling with the business because I didn't have the head space to think because my parents were breaking up, and it was all really horrible. Um, but something in me that day said, You gotta get outta this. You really have. Um, so we sat and we chatted, and he got very, very, very upset. Very upset, and was saying, I'll change, I'll, I won't do that anymore. And, you know, we calmed down and we agreed to start over again. But from the second we agreed, the tears stopped. And he said, Well, he then used that against me for the rest of our relationship.
Dr. Robin Stern: Can I push you a little bit?
Lucy Rose: Of course.
Dr. Robin Stern: So if, if that little voice could be here right now mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: I think she would've said, you know,
Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. And, and in the end, I've got a lot to owe to that little voice, because that little voice was, I mean, I'm sure we'll go into that towards the end, but that little voice was the reason that I got outta that relationship. And it wasn't strong enough at that point for me to realize that was the right thing to do. But it, and it took another year and a half for me to build my strength up and say, No, that's enough.
Dr. Robin Stern: What was that moment where you had had enough?
Lucy Rose: The last, very last moment. So again, we've sort of went full circle because we were in the car and we drove past the very per first time we ever met. So that car park we drove right past that car parking space where I was reversing. And he was saying, Why aren't you making life on? We drove past that space. And I lovingly said, Oh, that's where we first met. And he said, I wish it never happened. And he said, Think of all the money I could have saved, all the money I could have spent on something, on myself or someone else who would appreciate it. And I, I honestly, I really wish that I could bottle that moment up and, and give it to people who need it, because it, it was like a switch in my head. And that was it. I said, I can't believe you said that.
Lucy Rose: Take me home. Take me home now. And in that moment, I got incredibly angry. I, you know, it was like this anger had been completely shoved down to the bottom of, of wherever, I dunno where it came from, but in that moment, it was the first time I'd been angry with him in years because I was scared of being angry with him. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Robin Stern: So were there things, I think it's a, a really wonderful moment to, to conclude this time that we're together, um, uh, with, and I, I wonder if you can share if there were things that led up to that, like maybe a conversation you had with a friend of yours or other things that happen that that kind of set you up Well, to really listen to your inner voice on that night.
Lucy Rose: There were, I mean, leading up to that night, every single night ended in tears for me. So we would go out to the cinema or wherever we were going that night for a date, and it would end up with us sitting in the car with four hours on end and him telling me everything that's wrong with me and my life, and you useless. And it was happening every night. And as you can imagine, that really breaks a person. It really does. And I think that was the, I used to go home after that and think, Why I'm surely I can't be that useless. Surely I can't be that person. And I started thinking, Why would he be with me if I'm like that? And I think that was the start of me thinking, He's wrong, He's wrong. He's, he's not, that can't be made because why would he be with me? And I think that was the start of me trying to build myself back up for the, for, to have the energy and to have the stamina to say, No, I'm out. I can't do this anymore.
Dr. Robin Stern: So when you look back at that incredible moment where a switch just flipped for you inside, um, what I hear you saying that I'd love for you to say yes, that's what I'm saying, or no, it's something else, is that there was a presence of some, for lack of a better way to put it at the moment, some kind of, um, wisdom that hadn't been there for you before that that came, or some insight that came from your unpacking these crazy nights, these destructive and, and abusive nights that had come before that, and the presence of that and, and the absence, the consistent absence of love and caring and compassion from his side. So you weren't getting any of that, and all you were getting was this abuse and unpacking that and beginning to see it a little bit differently.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. And no one, I had no one to talk to about it. I hadn't told anyone about our relationship or how bad it was. So it was no, I, I'd take, I take full credit for, you know, having the strengths to walk away from him. And it was, you know, the one thing that, you know, I wanted to want also to get across to people who are in relationships or who have just got outta these relationships who have had the strength to walk away, is I didn't walk away and everything started getting better. I walked away and I had to rebuild my entire life, all of my relationships that had been ruined. Um, I had to, you know, I, I did have a, a mental breakdown after that. So it's not like I walked away. And you are to expect to be instantly better because it takes years. It really does. And I mean, even to this day, I, he's in my nightmares. He's, he's in things that I do. So stupid little things like if I make the bed, I think, Oh, is that up to his standards? Would he, would he like that? Mm-hmm.
Lucy Rose: Yeah. And I think in a way he's always going to be. So I just wanna sort of tell your listeners that that's okay,
Dr. Robin Stern: Um, it might be distressing, but he's not controlling your life.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: And the memory fades over time. It's not quite as intense. Yeah. And I think this has to be part one of your being my guest, because I think there's a lot more to unpack, and I can't thank you enough on behalf of our listening audience, for your really generous and, and vulnerable sharing of your story. And I know it's just about wanting people not to be hurt, not to hurt themselves, not to engage in this kind of destructive dynamic.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: So is there any last minute word you wanna leave people with, aside from have the strength?
Lucy Rose: Yeah, I mean, I would say that, um, I mean, in my experience that, um, he, he will, he was never going to change. I mean, after reading your book as well, that is very much something I got from, from my relationship is that he's always going to be the same. So I'd like to help people in the way that I'd like to help them get through it and get outta it, rather than them try and change this person because they think he's perfect. Because it's not them at the end of the day. It's, it's, you know, the gas.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. And it's a wonderful message to leave with. Yeah. That the only behavior you can control is your own.
Lucy Rose: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: That you, it, it's so common to want to change your gaslighter or to change the way he sees you. And to think, I'll leave when he thinks I'm a good person, then I can really leave. Yeah. Even if you're not having that conscious thought, really trying to change his mind about who you were before you feel good enough to leave, But that's not gonna happen. And what is going to happen is that at some point, whether it's through a conversation with yourself and gathering your strength and being completely at your last moment of putting up with it like you were or something else, you do find the strength to claim your reality.
Lucy Rose: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: And thank you very much, Lucy Rose, thank you. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found today's podcast helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter with the handle at Dr. Robin Stern. The Light Effect Podcast is brought to you by the Gaslight Effect Production Company. This podcast is produced by Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lens, and me. The podcast is supported by Mel, Yellen, Gabby Caoagas and Omaginarium Marketing.