Copy of Podcast Player Episode 076

Robin Stern (00:06): Welcome to the Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately, how to get out of it.

Robin Stern (00:55): Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really thrilled this morning to have with me Joie Jager-Hyman, Dr. Joie Jager-Hyman, who is an expert in the college admissions process. Joie is a Harvard and Dartmouth graduate.

Robin Stern (01:54): Joie worked at Dartmouth admissions for many years, and is the author of two books that are the Bible for parents sending their Kids to College, the First Fat Envelope Frenzy, and it has a longer subtitle, but basically about how to get into the best of the best schools. And then the second book, B plus grades A plus college applications. And Joie has appeared on many TV shows that you're very familiar with, CBS, early show, Fox News and pr, and dozens of other media outlets. This is published scholarly papers and popular pieces on the college admissions process for many, many years. I've known Joie personally, and I think that you are a stellar, incredible human being and have really shepherded so many kids who I've had the honor to meet and work with myself through a very stressful, difficult process, and have also taken care of their parents along the way.

Robin Stern (02:54): And I admire the skill with which you do that. I admire the, the wisdom that you have to share. And I'm just delighted that today we get to share it with a wider audience. And before I ask you to say more about yourself and how you even got into this work to begin with, I just wanna say that this moment in time with teen mental health, really at, at a high and with people feeling so much stress and moral distress and, and anxiety, and it's really a very difficult time for many people, and I would imagine for the college process too. So let's table that for in the middle of the conversation place. But in the meantime, just tell us, Dr. Joie, how you got into this work.

Joie Jager-Hyman (03:42): You know, a little bit of it just came from being a nerd myself. I loved school . I think I'm, you know, just somebody who always loved September, associated it with a new school year. I did a lot of school. I'd have my doctorate. And I loved college. So I was an undergraduate at Dartmouth, and this was back in the day when we had mailboxes that everybody used, and they put a flyer and everyone, all the seniors got a flyer, you know, inviting them if they wanted to apply to work in admissions. And I thought it seemed really interesting. I was very curious about the whole process, and I applied and I was lucky to be selective, and that's where I kind of got my start. And I quickly, you know, it was, even when I worked in admissions, the one constant is that it gets harder and harder.

Joie Jager-Hyman (04:29): So it was easier back then, but it was still selective. And I started to see really quickly like, oh, there's some real mistakes you can make. Like you can check the wrong box. And that kind of, you know, shepherds your application to the one one lane. And I kind of just like helping people. And so I started tele to do that. Like, oh, hey, don't do it this way, do it this way, or think about it this way, or, that's really where I started. And it's a, the work has evolved a lot over the past two decades that I've been doing it. I've had my own company, college Pro 360 for 15 years, and it, it really, the work itself has changed a lot. And I think you're absolutely right. You know, the mental health issues are much much more common, much more pronounced both for parents and for students. That's, that's one big change. And so, you know, I could talk a little bit about how my approach to the work has, has evolved as I have, you know, as, as all the external conditions and the internal conditions and just the realities for people have involved. But that's, that's where I started. I just started being a nerd and loving college and wanting everyone to go to the college that, you know, have a great college experience like I did

Robin Stern (05:40): The best Bit college. Yeah. But it's interesting, you know, it's one thing to feel passionate about it, it's another thing to start a company, college 360, and you have been enormously successful and, and I think outperformed every other college prep in getting your kids into the colleges they wanted to get into. Mm-Hmm . And having worked with you through the years and some of your really amazing students, I know that it's your desire for people to get into the college that's best for them. Mm-Hmm . And so helping kids to really go through that process and, and understand where they fit and what they need, I think is really amazing, is an amazing part of what you do as a company. And what, what led you to believe there was a that many people who you could serve that you need that company? .

Joie Jager-Hyman (06:32): I mean, honestly, it, I, I am fortunate in that I, you know, the proof of concept was just the demand. Like for, you know, most of our history, we, we have a wait list actually, because we really focused on excellence and quality over rapid scale. So there's, there's a huge demand. You know, I mean, I, when I first first started 20 years ago, it was much more people who were looking at highly, highly selective colleges, and they, they really wanted you know, a focus on just like the application piece and how to, how to, you know, get in and sort of, I guess, you know, I don't love this word, but sort of package or put together what they've already done. Yeah. And the work has really changed to include you know, really, really thinking about the full journey of high school, actually.

Joie Jager-Hyman (07:17): We start much earlier. The, the work itself isn't different, meaning, you know, it's a finite amount of work, but, but, you know, we found that elongating the timeline and giving people a longer runway actually makes it so much more rewarding and meaningful and sort of self-directed from the students, right? Because a lot of learning is trying things, you know, it's iterative, right? It's also, I mean, there's no real mistakes. If you spend some time in a food bank and you realize you would like to work on, you know, housing issues or something, like, that's not a mistake, right? It's all growth oriented. But, you know, we really think a lot about, you know, both journey and destination, because I think, you know, I've, I've known a lot of Ivy League s I'm sure you have , I'm sure none of them are listening to this, but, you know, just going to a great college doesn't make you important or smart or able to contribute, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (08:07): It's really all of those other skills, right? Finding a sense of purpose, having an impact you know, pushing yourself to, to show initiative, thinking about problems in the world that you can solve. Like that's actually what makes you, you know, kind of set up for success, knowing yourself also. So, again, like external and internal work, that's all a really important part of this process. And, you know, I always say to the students, like, I hope you'll, of course I do. I hope you'll get into Duke or wherever you want, Dartmouth or wherever you wanna go. But I also hope it's the least important thing that you do, because I really, you know, we really have over again, the past two plus decades I've been doing this. I am, I'm on the student side, right? I am with them all the time, and I'm forming these relationships with them, and I want that mentorship, you know, to really be very holistic, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (09:00): Of course, we know that people hire us to go to great colleges, and as you said, we do have great results, and I'm super grateful for that. And I think the minute that these colleges stop wanting awesome change makers who show initiative and have purpose and help others, then we probably have to get a whole new business model or close. But right now, that's very aligned, right? So, but it, the colleges are no different. I truly believe this. Like, we all want to be around purpose-driven people. We all admire people who are, you know, engaged in acts of service. And we are all in the pie chart of life, helping others to take up a big slice for no matter what you do in your profession, that is how you create meaning. And I found, you know, over and over again, there is so much anxiety, as you said, there is so much.

Joie Jager-Hyman (09:44): This process doesn't make people feel good. It doesn't make them feel empowered. It makes them feel very lost, both the parents and the students. And by focusing on, you know, just to simplify, we can say helping others, right? Or acts of service starting there, it really helps people get out of their head a little bit, right? It really helps people get some perspective, and it also helps them find purpose, right? All of a sudden they're not, it's not transactional. They're not just working towards this college trophy, you know, they're actually focused on something that they care about, right? Whether, obviously, you know, you could take a complex issue like criminal justice, right? They're not gonna, these high school students, you know, are not necessarily expected to reform the entire criminal justice system. But if they can really put themselves in a position where, you know, they're actually able to ask the right questions, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (10:31): Like they're working maybe, you know, with the DA and understanding what, you know, what, what crime prevention is and should be, right? And what due process is, or they're working with nonprofit organizations that represent you know, people who are wrongfully accused, or they're working, you know, we're actually, our company is hopefully working with a nonprofit. We are working with them to hopefully start a really cool program for some of our students where they go to Rikers and they play basketball with some of the adolescents who are incarcerated there. And just getting there, just being there is such a profound experience, right? And gives us, again, that perspective that we all need. You know, there's, there's a lot of uncertainty and you know, there's a lot of changes in these, these institutions. Either I'm not, you know, I'm not in charge of Harvard or Columbia or any of this, these colleges, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (11:21): But I have this opportunity, and we at our company, have this opportunity to really work with students at a time when you know, there's sort of, you know, a really positive and productive and growth oriented process that could take place. Or an overwhelming anxiety, I'm not good enough, shut down, withdraw. You know, I hate myself thing that can happen, right? So, you know, our mission is the first approach, right? Really, really help people, you know, before we even talk about colleges, we talk about you. What do you want? What are things in the world you'd like to change or be part of changing? What are issues that you care about? You know, how do you wanna help others? And it's such a amazing transformation because it really is like a muscle bill building, right? So like, they'll get a little taste of, of some service that they do, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (12:10): And then they come to the dinner table and everyone wants to hear about it. Or what was going to Rikers Island, like, for example. Like, what, what do these kids really none of us really know? Right? And all of a sudden, you know, they're really gaining expertise, they're gaining you know, credentials, a sense of self worth. Because again, we really derive that, you know, again, we're altruistic by nature, and that that is not necessarily always in the conversation when you're thinking about growth and development, and even about a college. Now, of course, we all know colleges like service, but, you know, we really try to make those experiences very authentic and, and impressive, you know, because we less, because we necessarily, you know, want them to get trophies and more because they're impressive because they're intrinsically impressive. 'cause It's impressive to go out of your comfort zone.

Joie Jager-Hyman (12:57): It's impressive to care about helping other people. It's impressive to take steps, you know, unusual steps to learn about something, to communicate something. And you start to see, you know, this really positive cycle where their self-worth you know, really expands. And again, you know, it's easy to, easier to get in because it's the college of admissions officers are no different than other humans, right? We, we are all impressed by those things. We all want, you know, purpose-driven young people. We all realize that we're maybe not leaving them, you know, the best legacy all the time. And, you know, it's inspiring to see young people who really, you know, are curious about the world and who, again, have taken those first steps to build those muscles wherever they, they may point their compass in different direction over the years, but if they start to realize that a, you know, helping others should be in that pie chart of life, and it does, it is where we derive meaning, and they start to see that they're capable of doing that, right? They really can make a difference. It just goes from there. Then they want more and more and more. And, you know, they start to see, they start to become the interesting people in the room. And that's, that's the growth we want to see.

Robin Stern (14:05): So I'm gonna ask you to dive into something. You mentioned the stresses and the pressures. Mm-Hmm . Can you, for the people listening, talk about what you see are the stresses and the pressures and how some of those things can really affect students' mental health, and how then can we address them, the, the adults in their life? How can we help address, and you, in your work, but importantly, parents and, and educators. Mm-Hmm . Things come up. There are, I mean, certainly with the students that I've worked with, with my own kids, when they went through the college process, that was 20 years ago. It was seems like it was yesterday sometimes.

Joie Jager-Hyman (14:46): Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Stern (14:48): The kind of pressure that they put on themselves

Joie Jager-Hyman (14:51): Mm-Hmm . Yeah. I mean, it's, it's looks, so we work with a lot of students who are ambitious, right? And who are surrounded by other ambitious peers, right? They're often at top high schools that are, you know, quote unquote leader schools, sending a lot of people to Ivy League College, you know, like these, these, again, this is a, there's 4,000 colleges in this country, and that's a small slice, but that is, that's the population that we often work with. And yes, these are definitely people with a lot of privilege, but who feel it know a lot of pressure to live up to that, right? So it's, it's not even just sometimes parents, like parents are extremely accomplished, right? School is one marker of that, but they've gone on to lead very successful lives, and there's their children see what their, you know, all the things that their parents have accomplished.

Joie Jager-Hyman (15:43): It's hard to really overstate that. Like when I was applying to college, it was, I would give everyone a time machine. I mean, it was, yeah. Things were, I, I, I'm proud of my, you know accomplishments and credentials. And I know I got into good colleges and went to good colleges, but you really can't compare, you know, I did watch Oprah every day, and it was great. I didn't have to , I was that much. It was a lot easier. And I would give everybody a time machine because the expectations on these students, which they're very well aware of, are, you know, so much higher. You know, they really are kind of expected to, you know, to have patents or published articles or, I mean, just, you know, not to stress any of the listeners out, but, you know, it's, it, the selectivity has just exploded, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (16:28): So we're talking about numbers like 3%, 4%, and it's you know, that that's percentages of already self-selecting accomplished applicant pool from all over the world. So, you know, I don't ever tell people that it doesn't matter or not, you know, like I don't try to discount their experiences, right? Meaning, like, it doesn't matter where you go to college. I, I, I would also advise, you know, people listening to use those kinds of sentences judiciously, like as adults, we do know, of course, that's true. I'm sure we've all met so many smart and successful and wonderful people who didn't go to quote unquote good colleges or didn't go to college at all. So it's not that there's not truth in that, because of course there is, but you know, it's kind of like telling someone really upset to come down. You know, it's not always helpful, you know, first you have to validate their experience, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (17:23): Validate that you are in a space where they are, you know, articulating their hopes and dreams, and that's really important. And they're young, and so hopes and dreams are often attached to college at that stage. And, you know, it's, it's a, it's not all that part of it, right? Forming hopes and dreams and being ambitious and, you know, wanting to see yourself, you know, in a really elite kind of, you know, arena that it is based on merit. Those are good, those are good instincts, right? And so I never tell, I I, I, we hold space for those, right? I think that's the one of the first pieces of advice I, I would give to people who maybe don't have, obviously don't have as much experience around these conversations as I do, right? So telling people that it doesn't matter where you go almost never really actually makes them feel better, because these, these kids are, that's the air they breathe, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (18:15): And so I've had, you know, I, I'll, I always remember this, I, I, you know, one of my first very, very, you know, wealthy and accomplished families that I worked with years and years ago. This, this student is now graduated and married. But the father said what was sort of obvious, right? Like, it doesn't really matter, quote unquote, because like, you, you have generational wealth. Like you probably can't spend all the, you know, you're not gonna be on the street. And we have tons of contexts and, you know, you really have the world. You're starting on third base, right? And don't stress so much about college. And the girl just ran out. I mean, that made her so much more upset, actually, even though, again, to me as an outsider, it seemed like a kind thing to say. And I really just realized it's not about the parents.

Joie Jager-Hyman (19:01): It's often that these kids have, they know they have to face their peers. It is a very, very public kind of hierarchy as they see it. It's a, it's a, it's, it's just this, you know, it's, it's a huge sorting mechanism that they see. That's how they see it as. And, you know, to just say it doesn't matter, minimizes kind of, I guess you could call it their social experience, right? Or their, how they, how they put themselves in connection to their peers. So it does matter. Their self-esteem matters. And again, you know, it's a good thing that they wanna be ambitious. It's a good thing that they wanna dream. Like, so we, we wanna make space for that and help them hold that. And then, you know, really listen to them, to both, you know, figure out what the way, what I do, and this is what I do as a professional, is, you know, how, how can they both, again, journey and destination, how can they spend their time now, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (20:01): Doing things that are going to give them the self-worth that, and, you know, that they again, ultimately crave, right? And also, you know, what would be in the po you know, if I went to do like a Venn diagram, right? So, you know, what is the overlap of like, what's their best self and what colleges want and where they can get in and be as creative as possible, because, you know, it, it, it, it matters to them. And it's, it doesn't necessarily like ma again, as adults, we know in a way, of course, it doesn't matter. We all know amazing people. You know, who, like, we, you have distance from this and you understand that. Like, where you go to co you know, where you go to college doesn't matter that that much. And it's sometimes when you meet an adult who tells you where they went to college, it's even sometimes weird. You're like, come on. You know, what have you done lately? It doesn't matter so much where you went to college, Mr. Or Mrs. Adult. But you know, it, it, again, it matters to them. And not for bad reasons, right? For for understandable reasons, and sometimes for admirable reasons, right? They want to do big things with their life, and they should want that. That's healthy and wonderful and something we wanna support.

Robin Stern (21:04): You know, one of the things that I remember hearing from people coming up through the college process, and even for my own kids, was that in, in the high school setting where friends are everything in junior high school Yeah. coming into college, into early high school, suddenly they're in this college process where, as you said, they're measuring themselves against other people and sorting themselves. Mm-Hmm . Where that, in that pecking order, and they're actually getting advice from their college advisors at school, don't talk to your friends about these things. So here, the, here is the, here are these kids struggling with what is a, a stressful process no matter what, and identity formation. And now suddenly they're best friends or people they're competing with. And, and for many students I've heard or I've mentored through, through working with you, and also just my kids and their own process years ago would say, I don't care what they say, I'm gonna talk to my best friend. Mm-Hmm. But there this feeling that suddenly these people who were so close to them and they felt really comfortable being vulnerable with as rejections come in as wait with mm-hmm

Joie Jager-Hyman (22:13): . Mm-Hmm .

Robin Stern (22:15): In a different category than perhaps their friend who got into the school that they really were, were dreaming of for themselves. Can you speak to that and how you help soften that blow and how you would advise parents to work with that part of the process?

Joie Jager-Hyman (22:33): I mean, I think that's, you know, it is a really big issue getting back to, you know, again, this sort of social pressure that they're feeling both, you know, I've seen everything. I've seen people who, they won't talk about it at all. The school says, don't talk about it, you know, thinking that that's going to, you know, make things better. Or that's all they can talk about with their friends, their friends, you know, their friends are all really, really obsessed with it. And, you know, giving each other advice. Maybe not always with expertise. You know, I, I, it there's such a, it's, it's sort of two ends of the same issue, right? Like the intensity of it, and all of a sudden you know, how do you take your, your social life? That was something that was maybe a little bit more separate from school achievement, you know, social life and status maybe always do go hand in hand, but not in this intense way.

Joie Jager-Hyman (23:27): And you know, fold in this level of competition that's implicit, you know, that, that, that's real, right? It's hard. I, I think having, you know, for, for people who are fortunate to have re like, resources for this, or there's even some nonprofit programs but, you know, having some, like having space to work on your college prep is actually really, really helpful because it does, you know, when you know that you have dedicated meetings with somebody who, you know, again, is not, is going to take you seriously, is not going to tell you it doesn't matter, but is actually going to kind of help you figure out, you know, again, journey and destination, things you can do now to prepare yourself to hopefully be in a better place, you know, to achieve those goals, that is also very helpful, right? Because you really know you have, like, it's not about when you know you can work on it in a dedicated, productive way that you feel seen in it, it helps it, you know, less bleed out, you know, in ways that you may not feel good about either.

Joie Jager-Hyman (24:33): Oversharing under sharing, I'm not as, I, I, I never, you know, I really do encourage people to whatever they're, however they're moving through the world, to not move through the world with shame, right? You shouldn't be ashamed of your dreams and you shouldn't you know, like be ashamed to talk about things. But there, you know, as long as you're moving through the world with that authenticity through, to me, there's not really a wrong or right. Like, talk about it, don't talk about it. But I think when people, again, make space for it in a dedicated way, they feel that it's, that they're a little bit, that it is more authentic, they're more in control, and they can be more thoughtful about, you know, how they want to include others in that conversation.

Robin Stern (25:18): Yeah. I mean, I like what you just said a lot, and I think that I just wanna underline that last piece about being thoughtful about it. Some of the people I've worked with, including some of the wonderful students you've introduced me to, have taken it upon themselves in their friend groups to talk about how they're gonna talk about it, mm-hmm . The process starts certainly in the final year where applications are due. And I think it's really important because those are the people they've gone to all these years when something was wrong or something didn't feel good, so what happened mm-hmm.

Joie Jager-Hyman (25:51): All of a sudden, yes.

Robin Stern (25:52): Can't have that. So I think that that's a, that's a good strategy, being thoughtful and having the conversation about have how to have the, those conversations mm-hmm .

Joie Jager-Hyman (26:02): And that happened. I, I, it's, we don't, we don't advertise. So all of our students kind of come to us through referrals, and therefore we know a lot of friends groups, even if, you know, it's sort of a happy accident. And I, I, I see that I, it is possible to do that in a positive way. It is not impossible. I have definitely seen students who are ambitious, who themselves, you know, are, are, are stressed, but do maybe a healthy kind of stress, you know, because they're working towards a thing really hard and they have good friends who are also in that same boat and still support them. I, I've definitely seen that it is absolutely possible. But of course, we all know those stories where it doesn't go that way. And it can be, you know, unfortunately a strain on friendships if people, you know, are not equipped to feel empowered and to feel that they can make authentic decisions and that they can be safe with their friends. So

Robin Stern (26:59): Let, can we turn our attention now to like social social media and ai and all these things that are happening in the world that are influencing where students live and how that influences the college process? Or does it influence the college process, the journey, I guess the, the journey towards college?

Joie Jager-Hyman (27:24): Well, I think there is starting to be a lot of growing awareness, even in this cohort about, you know, the toxicity of social media, media, the downsides of social media. It's, you know, I've been doing this long enough that I actually have seen a lot of the messaging that you are doing, Robin and other experts in this field breaking through, which is awesome. I think, you know, I do actually think many students are on their phones less, or, you know, or opting out of social media because they understand what to look for in terms of how it's impacting their mental health. So not everybody, of course, not every adult, also too. But I think there's, things are starting to change for the people that are kind of plugged in. And that's one of the reasons that your work is so important. And it, I, I do think anecdotally, at least I, for me, I've seen it breaking through a little bit, but, you know, there's still it, it's still there, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (28:23): Social media is still obviously very popular and, you know, I guess just sort of tracks with that whole it's public, right? It's one of the reasons that this is so much pressure for the students is it's so intensely public. And even back in the day when we were getting our fat envelopes, like it was a little bit more private. Although of course, certainly everybody would ask, you know, you people know where everybody went to college, right? People could ask. But it's not the same as what's happening today, which is everybody in the world will get a notification from Yale at 5:00 PM on December 11th, and if you don't post on your social media that you're going to Yale at 5:05 PM everyone knows you didn't get it, right? So it's, it, it's still, it is more intense and more magnified. Some schools have some rules around that you're not allowed to.

Joie Jager-Hyman (29:13): I mean, like, there are communities that are kind of getting together to have conversations about how that impacts people's mental health. And you know, again, some, some high schools will say like, this is our school policy for how you share this information. But certainly, you know, most don't. And it amplifies it. Everybody knows. I've definitely, you know, worked with a student and they've gotten some really big victory. And I will get lots of congratulations, , from like other adults in their orbit that I didn't even know necessarily knew. Like, like, it, it's, it's a public forum now, and it is a public announcement. And that certainly contributes to a lot of the pressure people feel.

Robin Stern (29:55): What do you do and advise parents to do, to protect for someone to protect their self-esteem? I mean, everyone will be mm-hmm . Disappointment, but not everyone will go down the rabbit hole of, I'm not good enough, and yeah, I'm just defeated and I why bother? Et cetera. Yeah. What do you do about that?

Joie Jager-Hyman (30:16): Well, one of the biggest tools in our toolkit is really, again, focusing, you know, all the lead up to the applications, right? Really making sure that we're, we're working with students who frankly, are proud of themselves, regardless. Now, I'm not naive to say that, of course, it's not a disappointment if they don't get in where they want. I mean, it is, it's a disappointment. But usually if you know that you have done the work, and what, by what I mean by that is the work, in addition to your schoolwork, like the work of becoming somebody who is contributing, you know, to society and who can articulate how they want to, to contribute to a college community. It's, it, it's a, it's a little bit of armor because it also gives you some confidence to say, well, if this one didn't work out, I feel that something else will, like, I actually feel that I am a really qualified applicant and that I have something to offer.

Joie Jager-Hyman (31:09): And that I put the debt on paper and I've done the work to really, you know, I've read this thing a million times. My parents have everybody, you know, like, I know what I sent in was really strong, and even if this one place didn't pick me for whatever reason, it gives me a little bit more optimist, optimism that like, either maybe I got deferred and I will then be accepted next time, or someone else great will take me. So that's one of the, you know, best tools is to really, like, usually if everybody thinks it's excellent, right? Like it will work out people, someone will say yes, someone great will say yes. So that's one thing. But, you know, I think like, I guess I should say another maybe potential hidden benefit of the huge amount of, of a, of reporting and, you know, there's like the media coverage on how hard it's to get into college now, in a way.

Joie Jager-Hyman (32:03): I mean, you know, again, I want all my students to have their first choice, and I, you know, that's what we all want for them. But, you know, I think there's just awareness that really, really awesome people aren't necessarily, you know, always getting in where they want. And that actually helps a little bit because I think, again, there's just, the public is more educated. There was a, a period where, I mean, applications have have really just been increasing, increasing, increasing over, you know, the last four or five decades. But, you know, that kind of middle period where it was much harder, but the media hadn't really caught up to, it was almost, you know, worse than where we are now because kind of everyone knows how hard it is. It's just so hard to get into any Ivy League school. And I think, you know, especially students.

Joie Jager-Hyman (32:48): So whereas that's one of the places that the pressure comes from, it's also one of the, you know, like as collectively, I see so much more kind of I dunno if it's exactly the right word, but like humility with the students. Like they know other kids who were amazing and didn't get into X, y, and Z place. So, you know, hopefully that also gives them a little protection. But I would say, you know, it's probably all the same parenting things, right? Like showing people unconditional love, right? I mean, and doing and doing that in consistent way from, you know, birth to age 18. Like, you, you know, the kids know that stuff, right? Like if they, they know when love is unconditional and they know when they have safety and they know when their self worth is not tied to achievement or accolades or trophies. Or I would also say to parents, making sure that you're doing your own self-care in all the ways. I think, like making sure you are living a fulfilling and meaningful life. That it is clear to your child that, you know, you status is not resting on this, that your friendships are not resting on this, that you don't feel shame because they didn't get X, Y, and Z. That is really important, right?

Robin Stern (34:02): Really important. Thank you for bringing that up. I know a lot of parents who are, who do feel really terribly when don't even wanna talk about it, when their child doesn't get to the school that they think the child should go to. I, I, I remember going to parent meetings when my children were young and parents were talking about how important it was for them for their child to be that legacy child in, in the IB audience.

Joie Jager-Hyman (34:30): Yes. I think there's some layers to that. So there's the version where the parent, honestly, it does raise their social status when their kids are really smart and, you know, they wanna be the perfect parent and they wanna be that go-to that everyone had you do it or what, you know, like everyone admires, right? I mean, there is that, and I think that's something if it's human, but it's definitely something I would very much encourage parents to work through early, right? And understanding that that's not a great, there's so many other ways maybe to get status and respect and esteem from your community. So that would be an important kind of piece of advice. And again, we're all human and no judgment, but that would, that, you know, I think we all could agree from, you know, 20,000 feet that that's something any parent should try to work through.

Joie Jager-Hyman (35:22): But there's also that other kind of parental motivation, which is our shame, right? Did we do, like, what did we do wrong? Or how come we couldn't you know, provide the right kind of guidance or whatever. We didn't set our kids up for success, or we didn't do enough, or we did somehow, you know, somehow this is our fault, right? Our kids are not, you know, and of course that's a lot of our culture, right? We're, we're, there's a lot of cultural things now that, you know, are anchored in parental shame and parental, you know, kind of like impossible standards. And there's, that goes for every, you know, for so many aspects of parenting. It's, to me, it's so obvious, especially when I leave America, I always notice that like how we have a very pressurized and individualized parenting culture, right?

Joie Jager-Hyman (36:16): Like we're, that is not always true elsewhere, but it's, you know, as much as we can like label it step back, think critically about it, try our best not to ingest that, try our best not to see that our, our role as parents is not only to help our students, you know, our kids achieve, it's also to help them be good people. To be resilient, by the way, because I'm sure you know, many people who didn't get into their first choice college still went on to lead amazing, amazing lives. You know, and, and to try to model that, but there's a lot of pressure, you know, again, like we have a, there's a, there's a lot of toxicity to our parenting culture and a lot of pressure on parents for results, you know? And this is a very tangible one that, you know, people ask, where's your kid going?

Joie Jager-Hyman (37:05): And, you know, you I'm sure look like I have a friend who I just was talking to who I went to college with. And so they're double legacy. She met her husband there, the double legacy at Dartmouth. And, you know, her children are not going to those kinds of colleges. And, you know, people have some child, I, you know, she's lucky enough to fortunate enough to be really healthy and to recognize that as those people's problems. But, you know, she absolutely encounters judgment when she, you know, tells her Dartmouth friends where her kids are going. And that will happen. I mean, I think also maybe prepare for it that you may have some jerks who might might put that on you.

Robin Stern (37:49): I'm gonna switch quickly to ask you if students are writing their applications with the use of ai.

Joie Jager-Hyman (37:57): No way. , they're not allowed to do that.

Robin Stern (38:00): Tell me about that. Because, and tell our audience, because there is a lot of conversation about what's happening at the level of high school and ai.

Joie Jager-Hyman (38:10): I mean, ai, look, it's not there yet for college essays. It's just, it makes tons, and even the, the one that you might be tempted to, to use it for, where it could maybe be one, you know, sometimes AI can be a first draft, right? There's a lot of essays that are, why do you wanna go to this college? Right? However, it's actually not even up to it, up to par relief for that, because I just, it makes so many mistakes. Like it will put the wrong professor name the wrong, you know, it's just not, it, it, there's really don't use AI for your college essays. Anyone who's listening , first of all, some, some schools have software, not as many as you would think, because the, the detection software is also not perfect yet either, right? So false positives wouldn't be fair. And you know, it's, it's certainly not everybody, but it could happen any year, any time they could just say, now we're using detection software, you should be prepared for that. They can also say that after you've submitted it. So it's cheating, cheating is wrong. And the consequences are extremely, extremely punitive before you enroll. Because if you get caught cheating in your application, you're a huge liability for the college, and they don't mind kicking you out before you've actually attended. So I would just caution anybody from, you know, it's cheating. Let's just keep it that way. But it's also not good writing yet. So, you know, there's two reasons not to do it.

Robin Stern (39:34): Yeah. Well, thank you for that. So I really think, unfortunately, we're going to have to wrap up in a few minutes, but not before. I ask you what do you think is the future? Like, what does the future look like given how college admissions has evolved, how there's more emphasis, and particularly your emphasis on the journey, not just the destination. I love how you talk about that. I think it's really important and really wise and true. And given the changes in our world, what do you expect down the road? Will it get easier? Will it get harder? Will there be more acceptance of the lesser schools than the Ivy League? What are your thoughts?

Joie Jager-Hyman (40:18): Well, I already think there is more understanding that, you know, co a college like bu is as selective as Yale was, you know, when we were applying. So I, I do think there's more understanding that the, the top, the group of top colleges has definitely expanded beyond the Ivy League. But I think, you know, it's interesting. I I, I'm starting to see a really, what I consider to be a really positive trend emerging in admissions, right? And some of it came out, you know, came from because they, they were forced to rethink their policies, right? Their now affirmative action, for example, is illegal. You can't have any race conscious admissions practices. We'll see where it goes with legacy right now. I don't think that's gonna make major changes given all the federal funding freezes. You know, the way that colleges are squeezed financially.

Joie Jager-Hyman (41:07): But if that settles in the future, I think there may be some legitimate questions around legacy admissions. But most importantly, I'm starting to see a much bigger emphasis in the admissions office on finding students who are actually rehearsed and invested in dialogue skills. So how have you talked to people who are different than you? How do you actually resolve conflict or come to some kind of consensus? It reminds me a lot about, you know, I've told Melissa this, the work she does with peace education, a lot of emphasis on those kinds of skills. And I think that is a hugely positive development and something that we are really always in our staff meetings and, you know, we have a whole innovation team that tries to go out and help students like, you know, work on projects or find internships. How can we infuse you know, opportunities for these students to actually talk to people who are different, to go and expose themselves to you know, points of view and ways of life that are different.

Joie Jager-Hyman (42:18): And even when we, you know, think we are, we are right, right? Like, if we're working on important issues for social justice or equality, and that's our goal. If we don't listen, if we don't interact, if we don't build coalitions, if we don't, you know, frankly, sometimes even understand that allyship is complicated, we're never gonna be successful. And I think that that has been a hugely positive development in emissions and something that I hope to see more and more of in terms of what the colleges are valuing. I think they unfortunately took a crisis on a lot, many crises on campuses to get there where people are, you know, students and faculty were not able to do that in a respectful way. But I, I think, you know, ironically, even though, you know, we can certainly argue with some of the forcefulness of the directives or the or the way that the federal government is, you know, tying is to, to threats around funding freezes or tax exemption or, you know, we, or academic freedom, frankly, I think there, you know, behind the scenes there is, there is an acknowledgement that some of these issues are, are serious and need to be addressed for the, you know, for the future of higher education that we do need to teach students that, you know, when we talk about diversity, it's not just a specific type of diversity, it is diversity of viewpoint, you know, diversity of background, diversity of political ideology.

Joie Jager-Hyman (43:47): And we do need to make more room for people who, you know, are, are conservative or don't agree with. You know, with, with you, with us, with me, , we have to make room for that. So I think that's been very positive, actually.

Robin Stern (44:04): Oh, I'm so glad to hear that that is actually happening in college applications. And, and I agree. I think it's of the moment and of the future and really necessary. And last question. What do you do for fun outside of working on this really important stuff for everyone else?

Joie Jager-Hyman (44:26): Well, I actually, you know, one of the best parts of my job that I do consider fun is, you know, I'm, I'm very engaged with my own philanthropy. You know, I, I really, it's part of work too. 'cause I'm always looking for awesome opportunities for my students. And I get to really, you know, I try as much as possible to, to, that's most of the networking I do is like, who is working on something that's interesting, who is trying to make this world better? You know, whether it's a, a candidate who's running for office or people who are working in nonprofits or think tanks or, you know, it just all different kinds of initiatives. And that gives me so much joy and hope because, you know, I really do get to see just such a huge, huge menu of ways that people are working in to make the world better.

Joie Jager-Hyman (45:12): So that's one thing I like to do for fun. But you know, I, I, otherwise, I'm, I also, especially since the pandemic, I know a lot of us you know, have realized the importance of our friendships. So I really actually do try to show up for friends and be a good friend and make plans with friends and do a lot of IRL things with friends. I treasure my friends and I'm somebody who, you know, I love to make new friends too, not only old friends. So that's something I do for fun. And I, I love my own kids, you know, so I I also, my job gives me so much perspective on how fast it goes. It's like, my son is now in ninth grade and I can hardly believe it. 'cause It's, I know, I, I just know with my students even that I start with a ninth grade how quickly it goes before they're out of the house. So that's also some, I love to spend time with my own kids for fun and, you know, do things with them and try to just, you know, have some activities or things or hobbies that we enjoy together because I, I know that it will go fast and they won't be, they won't be in the house forever, and hopefully they will be at great colleges. But more important, I hope that they will be happy and that they will be contributing and they will be helping others and find a sense of purpose.

Robin Stern (46:27): Well, they're certainly getting a fantastic start with you as their mom. And I know you have a wonderful husband who, who is values aligned and they're very lucky to have you as emotionally intelligent parents along the way. .

Joie Jager-Hyman (46:43): Well, they are the greatest teachers, as you know. It's the truth.

Robin Stern (46:47): Yes, it is so true. And I, of course, I have the privilege of knowing your amazing mother, and so you got an amazing story,

Joie Jager-Hyman (46:55): . That's it. Yes. That's always, yes. Thank you mom and my own mom and dad. Thank you. ,

Robin Stern (47:00): Shout out to Wendy and Arnie. Yes.

Joie Jager-Hyman (47:03): ,

Robin Stern (47:04): We when people click off this podcast and they wanna, where do they go?

Joie Jager-Hyman (47:11): Well, my company is called College Prep 360, and you can just find us on, on the web college prep three sixty.com. We're happy to talk to anybody. And they can buy my books on Amazon or in Barnes and Noble, I think still carries them in real life too, , but you know, basically wherever books are sold.

Robin Stern (47:36): So if people have questions for Dr. Joie or for her team yeah,

Joie Jager-Hyman (47:40): They can reach out, they can absolutely reach out and ask them, and they will get to me. Wonderful.

Robin Stern (47:45): I forgot to ask you whether you've seen any gaslighting in the process. And the reason I'm asking is that when I, when my kids were young, I remember going to these parent meetings and this is not to say bad things about any of the schools they went to

Joie Jager-Hyman (48:06): School,

Robin Stern (48:07): Wonderful admissions people and mm-hmm . Head schools at the same time parents were asked to believe that it was, that their grades weren't important and high school developing a love of learning mm-hmm . Parents I was sitting with at the time were, we all looked at each other. We said, that's not true. Mm-Hmm . So we actually gaslight it because we actually didn't believe it, but Right.

Joie Jager-Hyman (48:30): Yeah.

Robin Stern (48:31): Feel like there was an attempt to make us believe something that wasn't real about the college process. And it was a, an attempt to help us steer our kids perhaps in the direction of journey mm-hmm . Rather than destination at the same time. Some of that maybe common rhetoric, I don't know is can feel manipulative.

Joie Jager-Hyman (48:55): Oh, yes, yes. I

Robin Stern (48:57): Can you talk about that just for a minute or so?

Joie Jager-Hyman (49:00): Yes, absolutely. I mean, I, as I said before, I feel like one of the worst things you can say to some, a young person who is doing something important, which is to have hopes and dreams and ambitions, is this doesn't matter. That's very gaslighting. And schools with good intentions do that all the time. It's not because, you know, their intentions are, they want to keep community and not foster competition. Right. But it is gaslighting because the rhetoric, they like, you know, minimizing it dismissing it. I've definitely, I've had so many students who college counselor at school told them not to bother applying, who then got into their first choice school. Right. And, you know, one thing we always try to do is embrace potential, right? So if you, you didn't have the best freshman year, that doesn't mean you can't, you know, let's start now.

Joie Jager-Hyman (49:54): Let's go as big as we can, and the student has to do it. I'm not taking their test for them. I'm not doing their service for them, like, but I always want to make space and hold space for their dreams, right? And I think that's really, and to take them seriously, that's really important. And I think a lot of schools, again, it's not malicious. It is, you know, it could be coming from the absolute best place, which is wanting to, you know, amplify community and minimize competition, but it often has this gaslighting effect of frankly saying things that aren't true. These things don't matter, or, you know to minimizing or saying untruths or making people feel dismissed. That does happen all the time in the school setting. And it's, it's it's not helpful. Mean, you know, it's, I think there's just so many more constructive ways to take those positive instincts that students have when they are dreaming big, and to channel them into something that can actually you know, validate them and help them grow and, you know, be a little carrot which never hurts. You know, into, to then, then shift from, you know, sort of status or trophy to, okay, ambition is great, let's help you figure out, you know, what you can do, how can you contribute? How can you grow?

Robin Stern (51:14): So when getting these gaslighting messages, how can they protect themselves from believing them

Joie Jager-Hyman (51:23): Believ? I mean, I think, you know, under maybe critical thinking is always important, right? So first labeling, figuring out, you know, this is what's happening. You don't have to do it with animosity. You can understand that maybe it's even, you know, kind of coming from a potentially, you know, quote unquote good place, right? It's not personal. It's not always because they don't think you can do it. But it's maybe they're trying to protect you, right? Maybe they think that they've seen other amazing people like you who haven't actually, you know, gotten in. And so they're trying to say that not because they don't believe in you, but because they don't want you to get hurt.

Robin Stern (52:02): And I'll just add to that, sorry to cut you off, but I, I wanna make sure that I don't lose my thought here, which is that often will inadvertently gaslight their children in because they're feeling anxious about replace, that they're afraid their child could go to or a feeling their child might have. And so we don't want to say to parents, you're doing bad things. We just wanna say to parents, be mindful of the messages, right? From our own want to protect our kids. Mm-Hmm . And I as well, from our own want to protect our mm-hmm . We might be saying things that kids are misinterpreting.

Joie Jager-Hyman (52:46): I think, I think in the parent-child relationship, one thing that's so important is, you know, take your kids seriously, right? Like, we, as we know rationally, we all have that instinct and it's, you know, it kills us often when we see, you know, bad things happen to our children. It's almost sometimes harder than when they happen to us, but we also know we can't protect them from everything, and we shouldn't want to because they need to gain resilience. But, you know, it's also really important to, to understand that like, again, it's a good thing for them to be ambitious that they are, it doesn't mean that it has to be completely, I've known so many, you know not amazing admissions officers. Like I wouldn't tie my whole self-worth, you know, I would or encourage anybody to tie their whole self-worth to, you know, what some admissions officer thinks.

Joie Jager-Hyman (53:32): But again, taking them seriously, embracing that they wanna be ambitious, helping them hold space for that and helping them work through that is, is really good. And, you know, even if we want to protect them from rejection, to remind ourself that, you know, it's futile if that's helpful to remind yourself, right? Just actually can't. And really, that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to raise people who have self-esteem and support and safety to recover and to, and we all, obviously, we all know that that's the actual skill that we need to succeed.

Robin Stern (54:09): Thank you so much for your wisdom on gaslighting as well in the process, and really appreciate your time this morning and really appreciate everything you've shared with our audience. I know people took away lots of goodies intellectual goodies and emotional goodies from today's recording. And I really I wish that at the time that I and all of our, our friends were going through the college journey and process that I knew you then

Joie Jager-Hyman (54:40): a little bit. Oh yeah. I mean, and, but you are a good example of how it always works out if you let it. Right. So you know, it's an honor to be here and thank you for all the work you do and reminding us that you know, it's, it's it is an emotional and you know, psychological journey as well, and these are important things to think about. And I think there's been so much more awareness of that, and I'm very grateful.

Robin Stern (55:09): Thank you so much and take your kids seriously. Great parting message.

Joie Jager-Hyman (55:14): Very appreciate it.

Robin Stern (55:15): Thank you.

Robin Stern (55:18): Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez, and Imaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.