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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect Podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm delighted this morning to have with me my new friend and colleague, David McLaughlin. David is the founder and creator of Pendulum Coaching, and he himself is a coach, expert in the field, and, uh, with a long history of working with executives and corporations and seeing what we can take from the past and move it forward into the present. He is the author of Modern Leadership, which tells the story of leaving vintage leadership behind. But my first question to you as we, as like you to say a little bit more about yourself and about this book and your work is how did you decide what to take, if anything, from vintage leadership? 'cause we grew up with vintage leadership behind us, right? And so there must have been something that sparked your interest in leadership from those, from the ancient tones of vintage leadership. So can you talk a little bit about that and then how you got into and discovered and created your version of Modern Leadership?
David Mclaughlin: Sure. First of all, thanks for the opportunity to be on your show. I'm a big fan of you and, uh, your work, so I'm excited to be here with you. Um, for me, vintage leadership is something we've all experienced, and, and I like the way you phrased it because I do say we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? There are some things about vintage leadership that are really good and have, are effective and have served us well. But my concept on modern leadership is that a lot of those things that we're used to maybe aren't serving us so well anymore. We need to look at a new way of, uh, leading. And the way I got into it, I guess. Uh, so my, my career, I have a very odd career path. So out of high school, I was a professional musician for about five years. Lived on a tour bus, had long hair and an ear ring and all that kind of stuff. It was, it was a long time ago. And then, um, I, I did the natural transition from musician to tax accountant.
Dr. Robin Stern: So, wait, aren't you gonna tell us what kind of musician, what you played and what you said?
David Mclaughlin: Oh, we just like pop rock kind of stuff, but we, we were a busy group. We played like 300 shows a year. And so it was, it was, uh, a lot of work, but it was just like cover songs and stuff like that. Nothing, anybody to
Dr. Robin Stern: What was the name of your group?
David Mclaughlin: Oh, I was in several different groups. Um, the group I was in the longest was Eternity. And, um, we just, you just play wherever people will, you know, let you play
Dr. Robin Stern: It's right, yeah. You enjoyed yourself. That's clear. So that's
David Mclaughlin: Great. And you know, that's interesting because there was a guy who, uh, had been in the group before and he had gone on and had a little more success, and he was on our bus one day and we were talking, you know, everybody wants to go to the next level and the next level and the next level till you just get famous and all that. And he said, listen, don't forget, you're living the dream right now. You live on a tour bus, you play 300 shows a year, everybody would kill to be in your position. So I've taken that with me through my whole life and just realized that sometimes we're actually experiencing what's fantastic if, if we don't look too far ahead, you know what I mean? Just enjoy what we're doing
Dr. Robin Stern: Or if we don't get too caught up in those kind of horrible comparisons.
David Mclaughlin: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I, I was a musician and then I became a tax accountant, worked at a CPA firm for a little bit, and then, uh, the company that I worked for for like 18 years recruited me to join them on their tax team. And I worked there for a couple years on that tax team. But that's when I learned about the learning and development field. And I had already done a lot of speaking. I like speaking at conferences on tax topics and things like that. And so I'm like, Ooh, I like this. I didn't know there was, I had no idea that there's actually a field and career of that. And so I actually at that company ended up moving over, uh, to that team and then, um, ended up leading that team and was with that organization for about 18 years.
Dr. Robin Stern: So I'm just gonna interrupt to, to say that obviously you are a very interesting man and have some super interesting things in happening in your career. As you look back, um, do you want me to ask you how you got from being a musician to being a tax accountant? It's not the, it's the Oh, sure. The linear your path.
David Mclaughlin: It, it, it's very simple. So, uh, well, there's my first response when you said that was I wanted to make more money. So that was, that was like the first one. Like, I was getting married and all that kinda stuff, like, I need to make more money. But when I was, uh, there, there was a time there where I was working with a guy who was a CPA and he helped nonprofits get started, did a lot of nonprofit works, did their 5 0 1 C3 applications, all that kind of stuff. He was from India and could not speak English very well. And so he would train me on all of the stuff, and then I would present the seminars and then say, okay, we're done. Now you can talk to Roy. And so that's kind of how it worked. Him getting business was I did the speaking and through that process I learned, I like this. I, I love the business. I was all, I've always been interested in the business side of things. And so I thought I should learn more about this and, um, kind of get into that. So I did that and I loved it to this day. Like, if I had just had a career of tax accounting, I would've been happy. I really liked it. But then I found this thing that was even better, and that's the learning development field for me. And it just, so that's how those transitions got made.
Dr. Robin Stern: I just have to tell you this little story of my own, even though you are the interviewee today. But, um, I think that many people who know me would be surprised to know that the first piece that I got that ever was published was in the financial something or other. Um, and it was about shopping center financing, because my first job Oh, wow. Job out of college, even though I was a psych major, um, I was offered this job, uh, to write for somebody who was working for Barron's at the time and did other financial circulars and, and, uh, so shopping center financing was not my strong suit,
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, and that's, I love interviewing people too. It's, it's, uh, I feel like there's so much to learn in life. Like there's this whole broad realm of knowledge. And then I know like this little tiny dot over here, so I love learning from people.
Dr. Robin Stern: So I'm done self-disclosing. And back to you,
David Mclaughlin:
Dr. Robin Stern: And how did you get from, um, focusing on emotional intelligence as, as a core, as a core, uh, component of leadership to mindfulness and putting people together? And, um, and just tell us about what you, and then you were also, I, I'm guessing or you tell us, but, um, looking back at leadership vintage and looking forward and creating something new.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, so, uh, my own journey with emotional intelligence really started with mindfulness. Um, and it was probably now about 15 years ago. Um, I was, you know, it was a great organization I worked for, but like most corporations, and it was like a $5 billion organization and we had a lot of pressure to get stuff done. And, and I went through this time where I, I was asked to lead. We, we were moving to a new building and it was like a three year project. We had to like gut the new building, redesign everything, all 12 floors. And they wanted me to lead that process. And I said, well, that I don't really know anything about that. 'cause they wanted my facilitation skills in that process. So I'm like, okay, we can do that. Who's gonna do my job while I do that? And they're like, oh, I think you can do both.
David Mclaughlin: And that was like one of the biggest mistakes of my life thinking that was would work. But, so I did two full-time jobs really for three years. I literally, no hyperbole, worked 80 hours a week. And I got down to towards the end of that and thought I was having a heart attack, went to the hospital, and they just said, you know, I was there almost all night. And they ran all their tests and they came back and said, you're just, it's just, this is just stress. Nothing more than stress. And the doctor said, if you don't figure that out, you're gonna die. So I'm like, okay. And I'd kind of toyed around with some mindfulness stuff a little bit, but, uh, because of a mutual friend, or not a mutual friend, but a friend I had, um, who's a consultant that really got me into mindfulness.
David Mclaughlin: And I cannot tell you Dr. Stern how much that changed my entire life. And to this day, I'm so grateful for mindfulness in my life and meditation. It, it's revolutionized everything about my life. When I first started my practice, I thought, I'm going to coach on mindfulness because I really think this is the center, and I still do. I think this is the center of good leadership is being mindful. And I was actually on vacation. I was out in Malibu when, and I was meditating on the beach and trying to figure out what do I want my, you know, practice to look like. And I'm sitting there meditating and all of a sudden I just opened my eyes and I'm like, this, this thing I'm doing right now that is, you know, what I should be. And I thought on the coast, it's cool. Center America, I'm in Oklahoma City, so Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, I have this thing, I say when I speak on mindfulness a lot where I say, you know, I'm, we're gonna talk about mindfulness when I do this on the coast.
David Mclaughlin: People are like, cool, let's go home. I say, when I do it here in the Midwest, people are like, you're not gonna get me to change my religion. And so that joke kind of breaks down, but it's the truth. People think like you're trying to get them to change your religion or something. And I approach it, uh, not so much from a Buddhist, uh, side 'cause I'm not a Buddhist, but I do love Buddhist psychology
Dr. Robin Stern: You said it, so either you said it or someone said it about you, that, um, the work in mindfulness and emotional intelligence both rest on self-awareness,
David Mclaughlin: Right? Absolutely. And I, I'm working on my PhD, I'm about to, uh, propose, but my inner, my research is the intersection of mindfulness and emotional intelligence among leaders.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's really exciting.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, it, I'm, I'm super excited about it too. So that's, it is just my passion. And then, so getting to the modern and vintage leadership first of, I wanted to write a book for my clients like that I could give them, 'cause we keep talking about the same things and I'm like, if I could write a book and give them a book, this would really like, escalate the process or, or speed it up. And so that's why I wanted to write the book. I wrote about six parts of six books before I landed on this concept of modern, uh, contrasted with vintage leadership. And, and this one, when I hit that idea, I'm like, that's it. That's, that's the ticket.
Dr. Robin Stern: So tell us what the ticket reads.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, so, you know, modern leadership can mean all kinds of things. I have a Google search, it alerts me every day. There's an article or something about the term modern leadership, and there's two to four articles a day about it, but never in like a full contest of explaining what it is. And, but for me, I was trying to think of the contrast. What's the contrast? Like old fashioned leadership, old style of leadership, whatever. And I hit on the term vintage because of my former father-in-law. He used to sell, uh, 55, 57 Chevys. He would get 'em, he would buy like the most rusted out, you know, ruined version of a vehicle, spend several years working on 'em and then sell 'em for a ton of money. And one day I'm standing in his driveway and somebody just bought a, I think it was a 55 Kirk hoist, just gorgeous car.
David Mclaughlin: And they're driving down the driveway and my father-in-law leans over and says, don't forget, it's still drives like a 55 Chevy. And I have thought about that my whole life because, uh, 'cause that was years ago. But we look at things with nostalgia, we look at these vintage things like with nostalgia, I'm like, Ooh, a 57 Chevy, how cool. You know, an old brownie camera, old manual typewriter. Isn't that really neat? They are cool. And we look at them fondly, love them. They've out served their usefulness. That 55 Chevy doesn't have power steering. It doesn't have all of the safety features that we have now. It doesn't have the cool stereo and all that kind of stuff. So it's great to look at, but we don't really all want to be driving around 55 Chevys all day every day for our vehicles. There's a reason we don't use them anymore.
David Mclaughlin: 'cause we've, we've advanced. And I feel the same is true with leadership. So that's why I started calling it vintage leadership because we look at it fondly and it, we grew up in it. We remember those things like, oh, that, that's cool that, that's a good way of leadership. 'cause maybe I had a leader back in my past at like, and I think, oh, that, that's how you're supposed to lead. But it evolves. And I talk a lot about the military here, so I'm always grateful for our military people. But a lot of, as you well know, a lot of our leadership ideas come from the military. They do a lot of great research, a lot of study and all that, but the military has a certain purpose and that's like to kill people and break things, right? And so you need that very organizational hierarchy.
David Mclaughlin: Uh, when I say jump, you say how high, or in the military, you don't even say how high, you just jump. You just do it. 'cause you know, seconds matter. And so it's a very authoritarian, top down, hierarchical kind of leadership. So what we've done is we've carried that over to the corporate world, and then we wonder why people are, are, you know, emotionally dying, you know, because we're functioning in a system that was designed for war, not for, uh, what we're doing in, in the, in the corporate league. So, and that, that's where I say we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's some great things that have come along with that, but we want to move beyond that and let some of that stuff go and then move beyond that and be, uh, more current modern leaders.
Dr. Robin Stern: You know, I I really love what you're saying and using the military as, as an, um, a way to say it. And I, one thing that the military would say they do is to try to keep us safe, but the ways in which they try to keep us safe, those are the vintage ways, hopefully. Yeah, right. Exactly. The newer ways of creating safety in organizations, or the more, um, uh, the popular and more embraced ways of keeping safety in organizations has to do with emotional intelligence, has to do with mindfulness, has to do with compassion. Helping to people, people to feel psychologically safe doesn't happen with, um, bullets to your heart, you know? Right, right. It does happen. Or to somebody else's heart. It happens with listening and responsiveness. And, and so I, I really like that we can look back and say, yes, we wanna keep people safe, but Yeah.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. And I, I came up kind of in HR world through the learning and development as all HR stuff. And, um, we, we talk, I don't even like the term human resources because as an accountant, I think of it as resources are things you put on the balance sheet, right? Like they're assets. And people always say, our greatest asset is our, is our people. It's like, okay, but if you really treat 'em like assets, and a lot of organizations do, you put them on the balance sheet and what do you do with assets? You depreciate them and amortize them. And so you use them up over time. And that's what we do with people. A lot of times we have our result that we want. And this is, this is part of the path water that I don't throw out. I totally believe that both vintage leaders and modern leaders have to achieve results.
David Mclaughlin: They have to get things done. It's how you go about getting things done where vintage leaders are just, like I said, do it. Here's the metric, here's the target, hit it. Or you're gone. Right? Where modern leaders say, we still have to hit that target, but I'm more invested in you as a person and developing you as a human so that you can reach that target. So it's, we're our focus. So on the balance sheet, you know, we, we use people up and then we get rid of them when we're, when we have, you know, used them up and rung them out and they're all done, well get rid of 'em and get new people in. Modern leadership says, no, let's invest in our people and treat them well and grow them so that they can get the same results done. We still want the same results. We, you have to make money. You have to, you know, uh, have improve your product. All those kinds of things, improve your service, whatever it is. So you still have to hit the goals. It's just the mindset of how you go about it.
Dr. Robin Stern: But it, I I agree, of course, with everything you said, and I would say that you've added some goals. Uh, maybe you didn't call them a goal, but you are certainly in modern leadership, one of the things that, that I know you believe is that, um, especially as a practitioner of mindfulness and meditation, um, and self-awareness training, uh, that the wellbeing of your people is also a goal, right? And maybe that wasn't so much in vintage leadership. I, I don't know, because I don't, they, there was human resources. I mean, and, and so, uh, or there were human resources. So what, what's the view that you think has really shifted between vintage leadership and modern leadership in the, um, protection and care and, uh, growth of the whole person?
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. And first of all, I think it's just acknowledging that people are humans and they have lives. You know, we, we talk a lot about, you know, bringing your whole self to work, but recognizing as leaders that people are going through things. So there was, um, I I, I always reflect back to my own life. So there was a solid year there where I was going through a divorce or heading towards a divorce, and nobody knew it. I didn't tell anybody. My family didn't know it, nobody. Now, I probably wasn't the healthiest thing for me. But, you know, I was trying to preserve this and protect us. And, you know, going through this, there was a solid year there where it was literally just hell every single day. And we have to recognize that there are people sitting in our offices and our buildings and our work who are going through things that we have no idea about.
David Mclaughlin: And then a few years later, my mom, she had had cancer. She was in remission. Um, and then it came back and they did a second surgery on her. They, they got everything from the surgery, but she never really recovered from the surgery. She was in the hospital for nine months every single day. And so, my brother and I here in Oklahoma City, you know, we're there every single day. 'cause it's our mom. That's what we're gonna do, right? So we goes here every day. So while I'm at work trying to do my work, I feel like I am doing a respectable job, right? But where is my brain? I could care less about growing revenue 2%. I could care less about cutting expenses by, you know, 2.5%, whatever. And that's all good and needed for the organization, and I have to try and accomplish that.
David Mclaughlin: But that is not where my mind is. So leaders have to recognize that people are going through things. And it would've been easy for my company to say, Hey, David's, you know, was performing here and now he's performing here. Let's get rid of him. And gratefully they didn't. 'cause they're, they're a great organization. They just know that, hey, there's gonna be a season here where he's not gonna be able to give a hundred percent. And that's okay because we care more about him and the long-term view of him than the short-term view where, you know, the vintage leadership is, Hey, you didn't hit the metric today. Well hit the bricks.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So interesting. Um, and so important, uh, I'm gonna pivot a little to gaslighting because yes, the Gaslight Effect podcast. How do you see that, um, in, uh, in this paradigm of moving from vintage leadership to modern leadership? Do you think that there was likely to be more or less gaslighting in with vintage leadership, or certainly awareness of it was probably not at it, what it is today. And can you just see if you can connect those things?
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, and I, I've been thinking about this 'cause I knew I was coming on your show. Um, so I, I do think that there probably, I don't know, I i, I don't know if there was more or less from then to now, but I do think that the opportunity for gaslighting is probably increasing. And I would say that because in a vintage mindset, people didn't ask questions, they just did what they were told, right? So there wasn't really a need for gaslighting says, I told you to do this, you did it, or you didn't do it, and I'm gonna yell at you and, you know, whatever. And so I think people were more direct. Where now if someone personally is not on board with the wellbeing of their employees, a holistic, uh, employee, uh, that kind of thing, then what they're doing is they're pretending.
David Mclaughlin: They're like, I'm going to pretend that I care about you. And I think that's where an opportunity for ga, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, because I definitely defer to you, but I feel like the opportunity for gaslighting has actually grown because people as leaders sometimes pretend rather than, uh, live what they really think. There, there are some leaders who are just trying to, you know, get everything done and they don't care about the people, and they are willing to make you think you are not performing as well. Or maybe, okay, lemme tell. I love telling stories about myself. So I worked for a tax accountant who was a CPA, had her own firm, and she would tell me to do something and I would do it, and then it'd come across her work for review. And she's like, I didn't tell you to do that.
David Mclaughlin: And I'm like, am I going crazy here? And so I started writing things down, like as she would tell me, I would write them down. And, uh, so then this just kept going, kept going. She goes, well, I didn't tell you that. And I'm like, well, here. I wrote it down when we had our meeting. She goes, well, I didn't say that you misinterpreted. So she told me to do this thing once. That was just, I knew this was made no sense, and this is gonna come back on me if I do this. So I said, just so I'm clear, will you write this down? So I had her write it down. Sure enough, two weeks later, she comes to me, why did you do this? So I pulled out my notes, said, here, you told me to do this in your own writing. So she looks at it and she goes, well, if you read it that way. So she was totally gaslighting me, me, uh, because she probably just changed her mind of what she wanted done. It would've been better to just say, Hey, I changed my mind. Yep. I told you that. I changed my mind now. I would've been fine with that. But to gaslight me over and over and over, I was just like this. And so I left that place. I'm like, I'm, I'm not staying here.
Dr. Robin Stern: Good for you. Good for you. Opting out is always very good alternative if you can't. Yeah,
David Mclaughlin: Absolutely.
Dr. Robin Stern: Right. So I think, um, my next question about gaslighting is what, what do you think is available now that might not have been available before? If people feel that there is the, the prevalence of gaslighting in their organization, or that one someone is gaslighting them?
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. So I think generally, and this isn't true with every organization or sometimes, you know, divisions within organizations always say cultures made up of a lot of small cultures, right? Um, but a lot of organizations now have, you know, skip level meetings where like you can go to the manager above your manager and talk to them about things that, that wasn't a thing back in the day. If, you know, an, a vintage mindset, if you had skipped your manager and went and talked to another manager, you're probably getting fired because they're like, we were insubordinate or something. Where now skip level meetings are a lot more, uh, available.
Dr. Robin Stern: You never heard that term. That's very interesting.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. And then there's also, um, you know, a lot of companies have, you know, hotlines that you can call. Uh, you, you can, you know, I think of the organization I worked at, president of the company, her door was wide open. Like, if you had an issue, go talk to her. Now, you may not always get everything resolved the way you think it should be, but she was there, she was fair, she was listening. And so I think those things are more prevalent today than they used to be by far.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And, and also the awareness of gaslighting is a lot more than, and the, and the stigma for getting help is, um, much less. So I think that those things are in favor of, um, gaslighting. I agree with you. There may be more opportunity because of the less hierarchical structure at the same time, um, uh, if people feel that there's something that's being unfair or some way in which they're being, uh, suddenly second guessing themselves or uncomfortable in their unit or their team, they can talk about it to someone else. So
David Mclaughlin: I agree with that. And, and I would say, I think it, like it was happening before that awareness was growing, you know, the wellbeing of the employee, all that. But then I think with COVID, that really escalated that where people were like, Hey, this is a hard thing. And, uh, to this day, I still believe that it kind of like broke the country. Uh, you know, I don't know what it did worldwide, but I think, uh, that I don't think people can everly ever emotionally go back to what we were before. COVID, I think, has just raised that awareness. And I think some leaders are struggling with that. 'cause they want everything to go back to quote unquote normal. But the people themselves are just like, it just did them in, and their recovery is a long, slow recovery rather than, okay, it's, it's over. We can take the masks off everybody back to the office, and everybody isn't full with all of that. And they don't feel, uh, psychologically safe. They don't feel emotionally well, and thankfully we have leaders who kind of understand that and work with that. But not all of them, they're, there's still people who are kind of have that vintage mindset and they just want everybody to get cracking and pretend nothing happened.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. Sadly. Yeah. And I wonder, um, if someone listening to this podcast, uh, is thinking to themselves, well, all well and good, but how do you be this mindful, emotionally intelligent leader in a climate where there's so much dissension and, and, um, there's, uh, so much division and gaslighting on each side of the political aisle. So, um, how do you step into that kind of, of leadership role right now?
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. I, I love this question. Thank you. Um, the first thing that comes to my mind, and I talk a lot to people, is about your own personal values. Like, you have to identify who, what kind of person do I want to be, and what kind of leader do I want to be? And if your values are that you want to be a more modern kind of leader, you want to be empathetic, you want to, you know, help grow and develop people, part of that is recognizing that your leadership style is not going to be accepted everywhere. There are places who don't want those kind of leaders. And you have to be willing to say, I'm more committed to my values than I am to the money and the career path. And recognize that, and this isn't true in every case, but you may, uh, have some, uh, choices to make about where you exist in, you know, your, your career and employment.
David Mclaughlin: Because every organization is not going to provide you an opportunity if you're that type of leader. So that, that's where I would start. Like, like my values are so important to me that there are places and we're always gonna have misalignment to some extent, right? Um, but we want to keep that gap close rather than far away where my values over here and their values are way over here. And so then the other part of it is you really have to care about people. And, and if you don't have that, you have to develop that. Um, it, it, it takes work. It takes internal work. It takes practice to really care about people. And I tell people, people in the HR community all the time, if you don't care about people, you need to go do something else. Because HR is about dealing with people fundamentally.
David Mclaughlin: And so if you can't muster that compassion and concern for people, you need to get out of that business and go do something else. And I think this same is true with leadership. People want to become leaders 'cause well, I have more authority and power and I get more money and all those kinds of things. But leadership is a people business. And if you don't care about people, you really don't need to be in leadership. So you know, the values and caring about people, and then just, uh, you know, the self-awareness and learning, there's a lot of research that shows that higher up you go in an organization, the more insulated you become because people are less willing to tell, you know, the power dynamics. People are less willing to tell the people above them, Hey, you're out of line here. You're not doing this right?
David Mclaughlin: You're not doing this well. So the higher up you go, you start living in this cocoon where you think all your ideas are brilliant, because nobody wants to tell you otherwise. So you have to be one self-aware of that fact, and then open to feedback and criticism from others. And recognizing also that the higher up you go in the organization, the further you are from the front line and where the service happens and where the products happen. And so you have to be really, uh, attuned to what's happening on the front line of the organization.
Dr. Robin Stern: You talk a lot about the why behind leadership. Why is this important? You're saying a little bit about that now, but can you, can you expand on the why?
David Mclaughlin: Well, so
David Mclaughlin: But we, we get more and more teamwork oriented. We get more and more, uh, relationship building. We try to be transformational rather than transactional. We try to be inclusive rather than authority based. So we get more and more like that. Then Gen Z comes along, and if your organization is not like that, they're just saying, I'll, I'll just go somewhere else. They're not even pretending. They're not even playing. They're not trying to change the company from within. They're just like, Nope, you suck. And they go somewhere else. And I love that because they're like demanding that we have higher ways of thinking and, uh, newer ways of, of leading. And so that was a bit of a driver, um, was just recognizing that if you want to survive as an organization, you can be moan the younger generations all you want, but in a mere 10 to 15 years, they're gonna be in those leadership roles. They'll, they'll be starting in the leadership roles in just a few years. And so we have to change along with society. I always say that society really pushes the change, society's pushing it.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so when you talk about the why behind leadership and you, uh, how, and we think together about how knowing the why can inspire people, you're talking directly about that now, that knowing why you're doing something is very motivating for people. You want to bring on board. Say more about that.
David Mclaughlin: Well, it's, it's, it, uh, goes back to like the values. I, I think the values are real important. And then like, recognizing that the times are changing and then also it's the right thing to do. Like, like, it's just the right thing to do, to care about people and to develop them and to grow them. And I think we have to, to be a great leader, not even a good leader, to be a great leader, we have to really think about our decisions. And that's where part of the mindfulness comes in. We can, you know, go through the motions to do the things, but when we're aware in each moment how my day, the things I say, my mood is affecting the rest of the team and the division and the organization, then that's giving us, I think of it for myself as like accountability. Like the my why, why are we doing this? Is what's holding me accountable. Now, some people don't think that way, but that's, in my view, because of a lack of self-awareness.
Dr. Robin Stern: And your why may not be the why for everyone. And so if you, as a leader of an organization, if you share your why, you're gonna inspire many. And maybe there'll be some people's like, no, you know, that's not my why. Like, I can't relate to that. Why I don't want, I don't want a touchy feely organization. Yeah. So I'm not going to a place that they do mindfulness. Yeah.
David Mclaughlin: Right, right. And, and I, I love that you say that, and for pointing that out, I always say that, um, you know, organizations love metrics. I love metrics. I, I think metrics are wildly important. But, you know, I used the example earlier, you know, gross sales by 2%, or cut expenses by two point half percent. Nobody, absolutely, nobody wakes up in the morning. The alarm goes off, they're yelling and they're stretching. They're like, I gotta go to work. I cannot go to work. Wait, I cannot wait to go to work and grow revenue by 2%. Right? And surely I can't wait to go to work and decrease expenses by two and a half percent. It doesn't inspire anybody. It, it might, uh, motivate them like with a carrot and stink way to, you know, Hey, we're all heading in this direction. I think it's a, that's one reason I think metrics are important.
David Mclaughlin: We have to know where we're going and what our goals are, but nobody gets out of bed because of that. So when we have an inspiring why, like, you know, these are the values of me as your leader. These are the values of the organization, and this is what we're trying to accomplish, then I, when that aligns with my why, and that's another thing a good modern leader does, is they don't just know their why and the organization why, but they talk to their team and find out what's your, what inspires you? What what makes you excited and energized, and try and make the connections for people.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for saying that, that I think that's so important that it's not enough to know your why. You wanna know everyone else.
David Mclaughlin: Absolutely. And some, some people just assume everybody's making the connection to their own why, but people don't, because they have their own struggles, their own speed of life, their own, you know, stuff. And they're not always making the connection between the organizational why to their own personal why. So we have to talk to them and help them, uh, understand where the connection is. Otherwise they don't see a connection.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and even as a modern leader, the idea that you have to talk to them, as you said, and actually have one-on-one conversations and find out what, what is lighting up the people who work with you, not just in, not just, um, try to inspire by saying, this is what we are about, but Right. Trying to understand and be responsive to what they're about.
David Mclaughlin: Yeah. People and I, I've used it a lot myself. Use the example of, uh, JFK's moonshot speech, right? And what an inspiring motivating speech that was for the country. I'm not sure that speech would be so motivating and inspiring today. Inspiring, um, because just the context is different, right? I think it was brilliant. Then I, I'm not sure now that it would have the same effect on people, because we are more individualized. We are more, you know, thinking about ourselves more a lot of times just out of sheer survival mode. But I think if we don't connect, like if we put JFK's moonshot speech, I think we'd have to rewrite it to include how this affects people on a day-to-day basis and just add that part. And then it would still be a great speech. But people really need to know, know, and learning and development. We talk all the time about what's in it for me with them, you know, what's in it for me? And you have to deliver that all the time for people what's in it for them.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So speaking about what's in it for people, um, our listening audience has gotten so much today, but I want them to get a little bit more. So the most important things that you think, um, people need to go away from this podcast with, what, what is the, uh, the essence of modern leadership that you want people to take with them when they leave?
David Mclaughlin: So, uh, let, let me take a a minute to, uh, answer this because I want to go a real quick walk through the book. Don't worry, this won't take too long. But, uh, the first thing went in, you said, what do you want people to take away from this? I thought, did they go buy my book, modern Leadership
David Mclaughlin: Vintage leadership is very authoritarian, where modern leadership is more servant leadership minded. Then we have our focus, what do we focus on? Vintage leadership is very focused on the tasks and getting the task done, excuse me, where modern leadership is more focused on the people and how they get the task done. And then communication vintage is very limited communication. You know, you're on a need to know basis, and I, I probably don't think you need to know much where modern is very transparent. I always say my default mode is complete transparency, unless there's a legal or ethical reason that we don't share. So, bending towards transparency then in our relationships are, are we having transactional relationships or transformational relationships, uh, which you kind of talked about, like with the asset thing. And then change. How do we go about change with individual? Leaderships don't like change.
David Mclaughlin: They want everything to be very stable and controlled because it's predictive, but it's really not predictive. 'cause we're not in a stable and controlled environment. So modern leadership is very much more adaptive and innovative and embrace that. And then finally, decision making, uh, vintage leadership. I'm the authority. I'm gonna make the decision where modern leadership is much more inclusive. Hey, what do you know that, I don't know, this is what we're thinking about. What are your thoughts on that? My very first, uh, mentor was Catherine Alt Graham, and she passed away a few months ago. But, uh, my first meeting with her, I said, tell me about your leadership style. And she said, well, I'd like to think I have a very participatory leadership style. Um, and I, I'm inclusive. I get feedback. She goes, but when the building's on fire, I just tell everybody to get the hell out of the, the building. I'm not trying to get a consensus, right? So I think it's part of modern leadership is knowing when to use what type of style, but, uh, particularly in decision making, you know, more inclusive, recognizing that there's times we, we can't do that. But that's, that's the bulk of the book right there. But it's so good, Dr. Stern. It is an amazing book and everybody should buy it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, I agree that I haven't read it yet, but listening to you and having been on your podcast, I know you have so much wisdom and, and experience to share, and I really love that summary. And, and I'm sorry, the loss of your mentor. Um, mentors are very important. And I, and we didn't get a chance to talk about that, but maybe the next time you come on my podcast, we can, because absolutely, that's part of being an emotionally intelligent leader, is knowing when to lift up other people and how to do that. And, um, absolutely. I have no doubt that you do that. So tell people, um, what lights you up about a next thing that you're gonna do this coming year besides your book and where they can find you?
David Mclaughlin: Yeah, so before I forget, they can find me@pendulumcoaching.com and then they can also find me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn 'cause I get to learn what they're doing, uh, rather than just talking about what I'm doing. So, uh, I like that back and forth connection. Um, what lights me up? So many things light me up. I'm, I'm a person. I was talking about this on may have been another podcast, I think it was a friend of Mine's podcast. Um, it's hard for me to focus on just one thing, right? And so what you have to do, and your mind's coming up with all these different things is you have to pick and choose and narrow it down. But I still try not to be too limited in what I'm, uh, working towards. I'm, I'm excited about, uh, my PhD research. So that, that has me very excited.
David Mclaughlin: I'm also already working on a follow up to this book. Uh, right now I'm calling it The Modern Leader, the Modern Leader Playbook. 'cause this book is very much about the concept. And so I want to get more into, okay, you need to do these, you know, things to really escalate your modern leadership thinking. So I'm excited about that. And then I'm just excited about life. I, I, I love life. Life is cool. It's fun. It has all kinds of perils and troubles and challenges, but I'm of the mindset that you kind of make it what you want it, uh, to some extent. And I just love life. So those are some things I'm doing
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's a beautiful way to end. I love life as well, and, and I love engaging with people like yourself who are like-minded and, and making the world a better place, which you are every single day. So I thank you so much David McLaughlin for coming on this podcast and, uh, your beautiful book, modern, um, leadership. And, uh, I'm gonna forget the subtitle, but please remind me
David Mclaughlin: Yes. Leaving Vintage Leadership Behind.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. And, uh, we'll be in touch. Thank you so much everyone for listening. I know it's been a very meaningful hour.
David Mclaughlin: Thank you.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Imaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
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