Podcast Player Episode 045

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really thrilled to have with me today, Dr. Janja Lalich, my new friend and colleague, and, um, an expert in the field of cults and deradicalization and, uh, much more. So please tell us why you said yes to coming on the podcast to talk about gaslighting and coercive control.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, first of all, um, you and I had a conversation. I didn't really know anything about you, and that was quite a few months ago now, I think. And it, and I just so loved talking with you, and then you sent me your books. And of course, well, the term isn't often used in, um, descriptions of cults and what goes on, but gaslighting is certainly a huge part of cult phenomena and, and what goes on inside those organizations. You're either gaslighted directly by the leader or by the leader's lieutenants. Um, and so it's what your work is extremely relevant to my work.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I felt the same way. And, uh, I'm glad you said that. I am, I, I really am so excited to know, um, that you saw gaslighting as that same kind of gateway that I've begun to talk about it as after having the conversation with you and, uh, and with others who have been in cults or gotten out of cults. And I wonder, before we get into that, whether you will just tell us a little bit about your background so that our listeners can, can appreciate you and, and your depth of expertise.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Okay. Um, I'll try to keep it short. , no need. Okay. So, um, when I was 30 years old, which was in the mid seventies, um, I had just moved to San Francisco, um, after living on an island off the coast of Spain for four years. And believe me, I regret many times ever having left that island. Um, anyway, that was how

Dr. Robin Stern: Fascinating. By the way, ya, that you were living on an island. What were you doing there to begin with

Dr. Janja Lalich: ? Well, you know, those were the hippie years. And basically what happened is I was, I was living in New York City. This was after I graduated college and after my, I had been on a Fulbright and I had studied in France and I couldn't afford to apply to grad school. So I moved to New York thinking I'd get a job where I could use my French. And I did. I got hired in a French owned bank. Anyway, I was with a, I had a boyfriend, um, who was a professor, uh, and, uh, an engineering professor. And we, we moved in together way too soon, of course. And he was really my first boyfriend ever. And he was extremely abusive. Um, he would beat me, he would threaten to throw me out the window. I mean, it was bad. Um, but the worst was I had, I was, I was raped by, and I won't go into that story, but anyway, I was raped one afternoon.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And when he came home from work, we went, we went, we were gonna go out to dinner and we're walking down the street and he said, oh, you're really weird tonight. You're really weird tonight. What's going on? So I told him what happened, and basically he turned around and hit me. He was six foot five and I'm five two. He turned around and hit me so hard and I fell down in the slushy February streets of New York. And I, and I thought, oh boy. And so then he said, I don't believe you. If this is really true, we're gonna go to the police station and report it. So we went to the police station, I told the whole story, and these guys, these cops are like sitting on their desks and, you know, and they said, oh, well, we can't really even do anything. You're in the wrong precinct.

Dr. Janja Lalich: You have to go up to Queens. That happened in Queens. So we went to Queens. I had to go through it all over again. You know, this is of course what women went through and in some ways still go through after a rape. Um, anyway, I went through it again. They said they would file charges, they found the guy, and of course my boyfriend wouldn't go to court with me. So I went by myself to court, and I'm sitting in the courtroom and the judge calls me in his chambers and he says, look, you're on the pill. You're not a virgin. You smoked pot. You don't, there's no way you have a case here. Just drop the charges. So what was I gonna do this? I'm 25 years old in this ju or judging robes is telling me this. And I'm like, whatever. Okay, I'll drop the charges.

Dr. Janja Lalich: In the meantime, I realized I had to get away from this guy who I call Better Dead than Fred. His name was Fred . And I was plotting my escape when the night before I was leaving, the cop calls me and he says, guess what? We caught your guy again. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And he said, yeah. And this time we really got him because he raped the 14-year-old daughter of the police chief. And I just said, well, you know, if you, if you had, if, if it could have been handled right the first time, that wouldn't have happened, I'm sorry. And the next day I left for Europe. And this is a long way of getting around to how I ended up on the end . So I, I went to Europe. I was traveling around, a friend of a friend was living on this island off the coast of Spain.

Dr. Janja Lalich: I decided to go there and I stayed for four years. It was an amazing place. There were about 50 of us who lived there year round. Most mo I was the only American. Most, most of the other people were French or German, or Dutch or British. And they were writers and artists and hippies. And, um, and it was an amazing life. We had, there was no running water, no electricity. I had this big old farmhouse with a big well, and, um, sounds extraordinary. It was extraordinary. But what happened? So a number of things happened, and one of them was that while I was there, I actually started realizing that I was a lesbian. And this was not the place to figure that out because the hippie movement was actually pretty, he heterosexual. So I decided, okay, it's time to go back to the States and see what's going on.

Dr. Janja Lalich: So I landed in San Francisco, um, because a college friend was there. And so here I was new in town, uh, vulnerable for that reason, but also because, you know, coming out at age 30, even though it was San Francisco and I was living in the Castro District, you know, the gay mecca, right. It was still very, uh, it was a, it was difficult. It was scary. I kept thinking people were gonna beat me up on the street. And I mean, it was, you know, it's, it's scary. It was scary. And so I met some friends who were political and, and a lot of activity. It was right at the end of the Vietnam War. And a lot of people on the left at that time were trying to figure out, well, what should we do now? What do we do now? And there were a lot of study, what were called study groups in most of the urban areas. Um, and so these friends invited me to join their study group. It was like 10 women, and we were gonna study women and the role of the state. And, um, I didn't know of course, that this study group was a front for another organization.

Dr. Robin Stern: Were you at that time struggling with, um, having come out? Or were you comfortable with where you were

Dr. Janja Lalich: At that point? I was comfortable with being a lesbian. I mean, and that was pretty much the community, you know, tho those were my new friends, my new family, so to speak. Um, and that's who was recruiting me into this study group. So these were women I knew, uh, from whatever political activity we were doing at the time. You know, that was sort of the heyday of the gay rights movement and all these different sort of liberation movements going on at that time. So I'm in this study group, and after about a few weeks, um, that two people asked to meet with me privately at my home, which was the woman who initially recruited me. And, uh, and I'll try to make this short. But anyway, they, they at that point told me there was an organization behind the study group, and it was an international organization, and it was, um, you know, very diverse and this and that. And we were gonna, you know, fight to change the world and educate the working class and blah, blah, blah. Well, that sounded terrific to me, right? I, and you know, I was 30 years old, I had done a lot of stuff. I figured it was time to kind of put my money where my mouth was, right. So I thought, well, this sounds good. This sounds like a commitment I can make. And of course, I ignored all the red flags. Um, and

Dr. Robin Stern: Did they ask anything of you to, well,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Initially they said, I, you know, they said, oh, would you like to join? I said, oh, yeah, I'd love to join. They said, oh, well first of all, you know, this is the bait and switch. First of all, you have to fill out this questionnaire. So I had to fill out a questionnaire that asked me everything about my life, my family, my bank account, my passport number, everything, everything. So by then they had all the goods on me, right? . Um, and then they came back like a week later and said, oh, wonderful news, you've been accepted. And then immediately I was, uh, given assignments to do. Um, I was told to pick a new name that we weren't supposed to use, our new na, our real names. Um, we weren't supposed to tell anybody we were in this group. We weren't. And, uh, there were all kinds of restrictions, security restrictions, which were justified by the fact that this was right around the time the SLA had kidnapped Patty Hurst. So there were all kinds of FBI agents and red squads and patrols out in the Bay Area, you know, looking for Patty Hurst, looking for the SLA. And so of course, it made sense for us to be very careful with security. Right. Because we would be able to, and you

Dr. Robin Stern: Were Right. And so if you were suspicious, that was a way to Yes. Yeah,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Exactly. So that all that seemed okay. It seemed a little much, but acceptable. Um, then I then at some point I was, it was suggested I should move in with other members. 'cause I was still living alone. So then I moved in with other members. So my, my world became smaller and smaller.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yes. And where was your family during this time?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, my family is back in Wisconsin. And, um, my family's very small. And, um, you know, I, I was in touch with my mother, but she had no clue what I was doing or talking about, or, you know, she was just happy I was back in America, you know. So, um, so I was given very important assignments right away, which of course made me feel very special. Uh, so I was, for, for one, I was, uh, uh, told to be secretary to the central committee, and I'd have to sit in these long, long meetings and take them notes and then go home and type it up on my little typewriter with carbon paper. People listening to this probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

Dr. Robin Stern: I do.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And then I'd have to deliver these minutes, uh, before 6:00 AM the next morning. So, okay. I am getting sleep deprived. Um, I don't have any friends who aren't involved in this anymore. And it goes on like that. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: And so if you weren't working for the group, sorry for the interruption again. That's okay. If you weren't working for the group and it was recreation time, what were you doing? You were

Dr. Janja Lalich: Still No, there wasn't, no, there was no recreation time. So I was my dream at that time. It separate from this political commitment, my dream was to be a writer. That's what I always wanted to do. So I was working part-time to give myself time to write. I was writing poetry and short stories. So I was working part-time at the Lefty Bookstore in town, which was near my house. And I was working part-time for lawyers, a a number of the women who I knew. Anyway, I won't go into that, but I was typing lawyers briefs, again, part-time to earn money. Um, so I was working those jobs. And then once I joined the organization, I, I had no other free time. And every, all the other people I knew, which wasn't except for a handful, everyone else was already in this organization. In the, in the beginning, the group recruited primarily in the lesbian and gay movement.

Dr. Janja Lalich: So this was who I knew. I thought, oh, well, she's in it and she's in it, and he's a really good guy, so this must be okay. You know, whenever something seemed a little off, I thought, well, nobody else is complaining, you know? Um, and if you did complain, of course, this is where, you know, a, a a very, I don't know if we can call it gaslighting, but a very, uh, targeted kind of criticism would happen. Like, you know, how dare you challenge the leader? Or how dare you raise that? Or, you know, so you're immediately shot down. Um, and

Dr. Robin Stern: The gaslighting is when you begin to think is, wow, am I, am I really off base for doing it?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. The whole time you think, oh my God, what's wrong with me? Nobody else is thinking this. I'm, I'm just being, I'm just being weak and I'm not being a good disciplined cadre, and I'm, you know, I'm, this is hurting the movement. I'm bad. I'm not working hard enough. You know, this constant, constant

Dr. Robin Stern: . Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Self, self blame, tearing yourself apart, loss of self-esteem, loss of self-confidence. And that's just about all we did. I mean, we did political work in, in town, um, but most of the time we sat around in circles and criticized each other. You know, somebody would become the target. That person would get criticized. You had to jump in, and if you didn't, you would get criticized for not supporting leadership in the criticism of this other person. So it was, oh

Dr. Robin Stern: My goodness. So it was like a gaslighting,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Constant, constant bad.

Dr. Robin Stern: What was the criticism about somebody? Not, oh,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Anything. I mean, sometimes it was made up. Sometimes it was, you know, somebody asked a question they shouldn't have asked. Sometimes it was, you know, I I, you parked your car in the wrong place. And that was against security. And sometimes it was, I'll give you an example, thank you. Of, that happened to me. And we would put people on trial, like, you know, like the Russian trials. So I was told that when, so after a number of years, I was told to build a publishing house, which I did. And I had contacts in New York. So at one point, the leader told me, go to New York and ask so and so for, to give us a million dollars. You know, it wasn't a million, but the equivalent of that back then. And I'm like, oh, crap. Right? So I go to New York and I have dinner with this nice man, , and I ask him for the million dollars. He looks at me like I'm crazy. I come back home with my tail between my legs, you know, not having succeeded. The next day I got put on trial for going to New York and asking that man for a million dollars, which was my assignment. Now I'm sitting in a chair in front of maybe 40 other people staring at me. One person reads the charges, and I can't say, wait a minute, wait a minute. I was told to go to New York. You know, you couldn't do that.

Dr. Robin Stern: It, it was like a formal process. Then somebody read the charges. That's pretty good.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yes. When it, yes, when it was a trial like that. Yes. Oh yeah. It was like a trial. And you sat in that chair and people could be berate you for hours, and you were not allowed to cry, and you were not allowed to respond. So

Dr. Robin Stern: How did you know you were not allowed to cry? Was that explicitly said?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yes. Yeah. And if you started to cry, then you'd get criticized for starting to cry, because we were supposed to be steeled hardened cadre fighters for the revolution. No emotion,

Dr. Robin Stern: My goodness.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Right. And, you know, innocent. And, and actually at one point, at one point someone stood up in a, in one of our leadership meetings and said, and the leader was there. She wasn't off and around 'cause she was usually drunk and, you know, won't go into that. But anyway, she was there and he stood up and he said, I'd like to know how we're different from the moonies . Well, , of course, he got picked up, taken out of the room, put into the basement. He was then denounced, demoted all his positions removed. He was persona known grata. And the next day, the leader called me in her room and she said, Comrad, Emma, I want you to create a course where you're going to be convincing people that they're willingly being brainwashed. And I'm like, okay. And so I developed that course, and we started what we called Party school, and only the top level people were in that, in those classes. And we basically convinced people that, you know, they were giving up themselves and becoming this other person for the revolution. And that in that process, they had to give up everything they ever believed or thought before.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so that was to be celebrated. That was a good thing that they were doing. Oh, yes.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Oh yeah. I mean, we were fighters for the revolution. Oh, yeah.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so when you said that you, your, you were, um, your self-esteem was diminished and that other things that sounded like you weren't the same person that you had been when you Right. Joined, um, did you notice that? Were you, was there like an observer looking down, thinking like, what's happening to me? Or was it just,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, Earl, in the early years, I would say I was really gung-ho and I thought it was all necessary. And I thought it was okay

Dr. Robin Stern: To change the world.

Dr. Janja Lalich: To change the world. However, there were two, two major things that causes caused my, uh, disaffection, I guess I'll call it. One was being in top leadership and being in the inner circle. I was around the leader a lot. And I knew she was an alcoholic. I knew she was erratic. I knew her decisions were based on nothing but vengeance. And I had to be in a lot of sessions with her at, she had a house, she had, she had a place in San Francisco, but then she had a house in Bodega Bay, which is a really nice, cute little community that, that, of course, teams of people who had to remodel over and over for her. But on holidays and such, those of us in the inner circle had to go there and spend them with her. And she, we would have to keep up with her drinking.

Dr. Janja Lalich: We would be sitting on the floor around her. She would get more and more drunk. She would challenge some man to go upstairs and have sex with her. She would, we had to always sing this song, the House of the Rising Sun, that was her favorite song. And you had to make up a verse. And if she didn't like the verse you made up, she would just slap you across the face. So I, I got, I went to those sessions and I would leave and I would be traumatized, and I would think, I can't go back to one. There's some that's not right. There's something not right. And then I would immediately stop myself and say, but nobody else is saying that. I'm the only one who's thinking this. There must be something wrong with me. I don't understand. I'm not good enough. I'm not trying hard enough.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Right. So that, that was happening. The final blow for me came, this was about five years in when my mother and I, I won't tell the whole story, but essentially my, my mother, who I was always very, very close to my mother, developed a glioblastoma brain tumor. So sorry. And I was allowed to go home and see her. Um, she had, and at that time, the most you could live is three or four months. Wow. I mean, it's the most incurable brain cancer. So I went, I went back to Milwaukee. She had the surgery, she went through rehabilitation. And every day the cult would call me, my leadership would call me and say, when are you coming back? When are you coming back? And I'd say, well, I'm, when my mom's gonna rehab, blah, blah, blah. Mm-Hmm, finally, they were gonna release her from the hospital.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And she had nowhere to go. So I called my leadership and I said, look, I would like a six months leave of absence so I can stay here with my mother, and then I'll come back. And she said, I'll get right back to you. I have to talk to, you know, queen Puba. So she calls back a little while later. She said, oh, comrade, Kim has the best idea. Bring your mother out to San Francisco and she can live in your house. We'll tell someone to move out so she can move in and you'll be with her every day. So like a good comrade. I said, oh, okay. So I flew back to San Francisco. My aunt put my mother on a plane a few days later, um, my mother lived in my house and I never saw her. 'cause I was working 18, 20 hour days.

Dr. Janja Lalich: So one day I said, look, you had me bring my mom, but I never see her. They said, okay, you can go home for dinner for 45 minutes. So, okay, I did that for a little bit. And then they decided she should work for the, for the cult. So someone would pick her up and take her to one of our front group offices. And she would do, I don't know what, 'cause I had different assignments. So I guess she did filing and I don't know what. And sweetest little lady, people loved her. And they would bring her home at the end of the day at nine or whatever, when that office closed. And I would get home around 11 or midnight. So one night, she had been there about six weeks. It was now mid-July. I came home one night and my mother was dead on the floor in her room.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And I completely cracked. Um, I'm sorry, I, I cannot tell this story without getting emotional. I'm sorry. So I, my best friend came over, and then I called my leadership and I said, my, my mother just died and I'm having her body shipped back to Milwaukee. And on the other end of the line, she said, well, you're not going home for the funeral, are you? And I looked at the phone and I thought, here I am killing myself, working 20 hour days, seven days a week, year after year. And I'm being told I can't go to my own mother's funeral who just died in my house. There's something wrong here. Mm-Hmm. . And I said, no, I am going to the funeral. And it was the first time that I ever like openly defined

Dr. Robin Stern: Organization.

Dr. Janja Lalich: So I borrowed money and I flew home. And I don't remember anything. I don't remember planning the funeral. I don't remember the, I do remember going in and, and seeing her lying in the casket in, in the funeral home. I, afterwards, in the Serbian tradition, we always have a big dinner. I don't remember organizing that or anything. I do remember, the only thing I remember is partway through that dinner, I get up and I, I left 'cause I had to get a plane back to San Francisco. And I flew back and I was terrified. I was met at the airport. I was told to report to a meeting at 10. The next morning I went to that meeting. I was sitting in that chair again. And I got criticized for putting my mother ahead of the revolution. And then I was, I became the person who had to go around and convince people not to go home and see their parents. And, you know, I was the example of what not to do. Well, after that, I was, I mean, the only way I can describe it, Robin, is that I was a dead person. I was just a dead person inside. And I so wanted to get out and I could not figure out how to get out. I mean, the door. So you

Dr. Robin Stern: So like you to completely shut your feeling life down in order to be able to move forward with this craziness, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Janja Lalich: So the door was there, and I could not go out the door. I had no money. I had a broken down car. I knew they'd come after me because I knew secrets. Um, I, I didn't know where I could go. I had no friend. You

Dr. Robin Stern: Wanted to leave.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Oh, I want, for five years I wanted to leave. And I, every day I would get in my car and I would just wish that I'd be killed in a car accident. And it was anyway, by, by happenstance. Um, a lot, lot of the other people in leadership started f feeling the same way. They wanted to get out, they knew it was wrong. And at one point the leader was out of the country. And we called everybody together and said, we wanna tell you what's really going on. And we told all the other members about that she was an alcoholic, that the things she wrote, she didn't write, somebody else wrote it, that, you know, all the dec all the decisions were arbitrary, blah, blah, blah. And the night before she came back, so this was about 120 people at this point who were at that level.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Uh, the night before she came back, we took a vote and we voted to expel her and to dissolve the organization. And then a team of people went the next day and, um, took her guard dogs. She had big rot, weather guard dogs, could took her guard dogs somewhere, took all the guns out of the house, picked her up at the airport, brought her back. And this little team sat there to tell her, sorry, comrade Kim, the party's over . And she didn't get it. They kept trying to tell her and she kind of didn't get it. And at one point she pulled out a cigarette and nobody jumped up to light her cigarette. And that's when she got it. And then she just like, blew up. But that was it. That was the end. And so, you know, then, and

Dr. Robin Stern: Did you start feeling differently once you realized, once you had that social support and you realized that you were gonna take back your life? If I can use the, the title of the book ?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Um, yeah. I mean, it, it was, it was, uh, I mean, all I can say is that the, we spent about two weeks in our print shop, uh, before she came back of everybody basically just pouring their hearts out, telling their stories. You know, people were selling their blood in order to have enough money to pay their dues. People, you know, somebody's husband got divorced and never knew why people who got divorced, the children had to be given to the spouse who left the cult. 'cause we didn't want kids anymore. They were a distraction, you know, so everybody's telling their stories. And it was, I mean, people were crying and laughing and hugging and I mean, it was the most intense thing. And then I, when I, I moved right after that was over, I moved to New York 'cause I figured I could get a job in publishing.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And I was, I always describe it as I, I I was overjoyed because I felt like I'd been let outta prison, but I was also terrified. I was like a 41-year-old, 16-year-old. I felt like I didn't know how to do anything. I didn't know how to open a bank account. I'd go and I worked in New York and I'd go on these business lunches and I didn't know how to talk to anyone. I didn't know what to talk about. I hadn't seen a movie. I saw three movies in 10 years. Right. And so it, it was, it was really an extremely difficult time. I mean, I was just a mess until I found, finally, luckily found the right therapist and got my brain back. But I, every day I would say to myself, how did I become this person? How, because I was a, not a nice person in the cult. I was in top leadership. I criticized, I expelled, I, I did really, really nasty to people. And I couldn't understand how I became that person. And that was, you know, this what we call moral injury. That was the hardest thing for me to, uh, I was suicidal for months. I was like, you know,

Dr. Robin Stern: So how did you use that experience and your feeling, that moral injury to launch the next decades of your life where you are on the other side, where you are the person who is, has reclaimed your reality, has taken your life back, and is helping other people take their lives back? How did that happen?

Dr. Janja Lalich: You know, I, I sometimes ask my myself that , I mean, I, I, as I said, I was lucky that I found a, at the time in New York, there was actually a cult clinic. And it was sponsored by, by the Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services. And there was one in LA and one in New York. And I found a therapist who, who that early on this is mid eighties, understood about cult after effects. And she saved me. I swear she, I mean, our work together saved me. And when I felt good enough, after about three years, I moved back to San Francisco.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. And you, you say some, what, what you think some of that, um, the ingredients of that saving, you were like, what, what happened that saved you?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, I think it was understanding how the cult operated and, and what really, what all those techniques, some of which I, on some level I promoted while I was in the cult, of course. But that those techniques were, were breaking us down, breaking me down, and making me into this different person and not the person. Yeah. You know, yes, I had agreed I wanted to be a cadre fighter. I wanted to fight for the revolution, but that's not what we were doing. We were creating sort of mindless people who were told that they were working for the revolution. But really what we were doing was promoting our leader to get invited around the world and getting her things published and supporting her in her fancy house, in her sports cars. And, and so it was the complete opposite of what we thought we were doing to ourselves and what we thought we were building, and what the only thing that mattered ultimately was the 100% adulation of her as our leader.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And so, once I've realized that, 'cause I did a lot, I did a lot. I think my therapist helped me kind of unpack that and look at, I did a lot of study of Marxism Leninism in the left and trying to figure out, because I didn't wanna become a radical rightist all of a sudden because I'd had this bad time in the left. Right. . So I, I, you know, I started taking all that apart and, and looking at what were my vulnerabilities that got me to agree to even be part of that. Um, and what were the things that built me up so that I became such a great leader. And, you know, what did I benefit from that? And sort of just really looking at that and taking it apart and, and understanding. 'cause the thing about moral injury and the thing about being a perpetrator in a cult, I mean, you've probably heard me say this in a sense, we all become perpetrators. You have to be, that's the only way the cult can operate, right? So to some degree or another, almost every person in a cult also becomes a perpetrator. And that is the hardest thing to deal with when, when you leave, it's like the things you did to other people or the things you saw and couldn't say anything about. And so, understanding that dilemma, like understanding that, that that is not innately who I am as a person, but that's who I was molded to be, to carry out my orders in that group. So

Dr. Robin Stern: You became that role

Dr. Janja Lalich: And I became that role. And so to grapple with the guilt and the shame, um, you know, that that's, you know, as we know, that's what complex PTSD is about. That's the hardest, hardest part about it. That's what a lot of people don't ever wanna look at. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: How did you begin to forgive yourself?

Dr. Janja Lalich: ? I dunno. How did I figure it out? I, I, I think working with that therapist, and then I started, I started meeting people in the field. I started going to con, there were a couple of, uh, cult awareness organizations at the time. And I started going to conferences, um, to talk about political cults, because at the time, all you heard about was religious cults. And I was like, well, wait a minute. Maybe we weren't really a cult. So then I had to figure that out. Like, oh, you know, they have Jesus, well, we had Karl Marx, they have the Bible. Oh, well we have the training of the cadre. They have this, the, you know, so I, I was able to sort that out and I thought it was important to educate others about that. And so through that I met other people and met other survivors.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And, um, and then I was really fortunate. I started working with, um, one of the, uh, cult awareness organizations at the time, uh, which is now ia, the International Cultic Studies is, but this was early on, it was called something else. And through that, I, um, I was, you, I I, I don't know how to answer your question. I think part of it is I always had this intellectual bent to me, right? So like, from the way I dug myself out of it, was doing a lot of research and writing and sorting it out. And then I, I was editing for, uh, the A FF and their cultic studies journal, and I helped them put together a book. 'cause I knew publishing. And so I wanted to continue using that skill. I didn't wanna just throw it away. And through that, I met Dr. Margaret Singer. Well, Margaret Singer was the preeminent cult expert in the seventies, eighties, nineties. Right. And she lived in Berkeley. And I lived in Alameda very close by. And we became fast friends and colleagues and, and we wrote two books together. But at some that,

Dr. Robin Stern: When you decided to write, when you met her,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, I had already written, when I met her, I had had already written the first version of Take Back Your Life, which was called Captive Hearts. Captive Minds. And that came out in 94. And I wrote that with a, with a therapist who I met through the movement.

Dr. Robin Stern: And how, what was your inspiration to write? I mean, that's, it takes a lot to write. So what was your inspiration?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, I think because back then and still now, it is so difficult for survivors to find help. It is so difficult to find therapists who know what you're talking about, who understand cult. I mean, I had a woman tell me just a week ago, she went to a therapist, told her whole story, she'd been in a cult for like 23 years or something. She poured her heart out and the therapist looked at her and said, well, why didn't you leave ? I mean, this is what we heard 25 years ago with domestic abuse, right? Where the cop would go to the door and then turn around and walk away. And I'm, it's so, so it's, it's so difficult to find people who know how to help you, um, to help you with that guilt and shame and, and, and,

Dr. Robin Stern: And who aren't criticizing you in the first and

Dr. Janja Lalich: Who aren't criticizing you and blaming it on you. Right. And so, um, so I knew there was a need for that even back, back then and, and still today. And so, so when this friend I had met at these conferences, Madeline, she said, let's write a book about this. You know, I'm a therapist. She had had a brief sort of one-on-one kind of cultic relationship. And I had my experience. And we said, okay. So we just set to it and, and, um, found a publisher and got it published. And, and, um, and then that book eventually became Take Back Your Life because publishers went outta business. And then I found a new publisher and changed the title and blah, blah, blah. And, um, and now Maddie has actually moved on. So she gave me back the rights. And so on this third edition, I'm the sole author.

Dr. Janja Lalich: But, um, but meeting Margaret was a, was a turning point for me because she kept encouraging me to go to grad school. She's like, you gotta go to grad school. Like, you have to have those initials after your name, or people aren't gonna pay attention to you . And that's just how it is. Right. . And, um, and so I've, I, after 10 years out of the cult, I applied to grad school. I was terrified. I used to get these catalogs and look through them, and my eyes would go bleary, and I would just put 'em aside. And then finally I applied, I got accepted. I was terrified. I mean, even, even in the, what, fourth year, whatever, I was writing my dissertation. And I would call up my, my, the committee chair and I'd be crying on the phone saying, I can't do this.

Dr. Janja Lalich: I can't do this. I'm not good enough. And he'd say, oh, Jana, shut up. Just get the work. , you know, . And so, um, yeah. So that's how that happened. And, and, um, and then I got the job teaching. 'cause I had to make a living, you know, first I was a hippie and then I was in the cult. So I have no social security. I, I was like, I better get something together here. And that was really lucky because the, the almost 20 years teaching as a sociology professor, I think added to, um, my research and my understanding of stuff and, and, and my desire to keep educating. 'cause I, I always, no matter what course I taught, I did a whole section on cults and students loved it. And I even have a T-shirt that my students made, you know, when I taught my last cults class. And, and you know, so it just kind of went from there. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, you are such a gift to the world. And the world needs what you have to give. And, and I guess my question, um, listening to your story is like, what now? We, we are in such a scary time in the world where there is gaslighting and there cults are still alive and people are still hurting and suffering and feeling, um, that, that horrible sense of moral injury and, and moral distress and, um, enslaved and can't break out. Like what, what's needed now?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Um, a revolution. We need a revolution. No, .

Dr. Robin Stern: I mean, you have, you have a center for this research, right? Yeah. And so what is the work your center is doing now?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yeah, so my cent, my nonprofit, um, which is the ledge Center on cults and coercion. I mean, what, what I'm trying to do there is, um, pass on what I know and leave a legacy. You know, I just turned 79 and so I, I need to think about how much time is left. And also maybe having a little fun in the end of my life. 'cause I have been working like crazy. Um, so what I, well,

Dr. Robin Stern: I think you have a ways to go for that. You look beautiful and you are so full of life and young, so Yes.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yeah. Well, you should talk to my knees , talk to my hip . Um, so what, what I'm doing is, you know, tr making sure the books are up to speed and in print. And the two books I did with Margaret, I need to talk with her son, uh, who I'm good friends with about keeping those in print. Uh, because there's, even though they're dated, they're still very much in demand. Um, and I have, and I have people I'm working with. I have a woman, uh, who just, uh, uh, drafted a workbook to go along with Take Back Your Life. Um, I, which, yeah, which will be really helpful for people. I am, my feeling about recovery is I'm all about writing. I'm all about putting stuff down on paper. I know for some people art is works and that's fine too. But I think making lists, writing things down, writing stuff out, sending, sending a, you know, writing a letter to your cult leader, you don't have to send the letter, but getting it out, getting it on paper, because when you write it out and not on the computer, when you write it out by hand, it goes into your brain.

Dr. Janja Lalich: It stays with you. And, um, when I was a professor, I used to give my students extra credit for at night, taking notes on their reading, and then they'd bring it in the next day and I'd give them extra credit, because that's how you learn, that's how it stays with you. Um, so I think the workbook will really help with that. Um, you know, give people a little more guidance about the recovery stuff and the different resources and things to do. Um, I'm, I'm working with a, a psychologist and we're creating a CE course for therapists. Um, oh, that's wonderful. Sign me up, I think. Yeah, we did, I mean, I did one a number of years ago, but, um, obviously you have to reapply in order to give the CE credits. Um, and I'm hoping, and this is a, she's a young therapist in, uh, Arizona, and I'm hoping she will be someone who can help carry this on after I'm gone.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Um, there's other people who are, you know, working in different ways and want to help in different ways with, like, in the past we've done some writing workshops. We did, um, music workshops, um, recovery through music, which this wonderful guy who's in New York actually, and he, he's a music therapist and he works with gang survivors. And he's been using my book for years. And once I started the nonprofit, he contacted me, he said, Hey, I've been using your book for years. I worked with gang survivors, dah, dah, dah. And so he did a couple of music therapy, uh, workshops and, and they were so successful. They were just, you know, really incredible. And, and he's very grounded. He is not new agey woo woo. You know, you always have to watch out for that stuff, . Um, so yeah, I'm, what I'm, I'm just trying to, you know, create enough resources out there, people, you know, helping people rise to the occasion and then resources that'll be on the website or be somewhere that people can, um, find these things after I'm gone.

Dr. Janja Lalich: I mean, I have a long, like, recommended reading list on my website. Um, and there's so many people like you, the work you're doing, Dr. Romney and the work on narcissism. I mean, there's so many things coming together now, yet, as you mentioned, at the same time, we're, we're in a space, at least in our country where we've never been before. And, and, uh, and that became very apparent, I think during the pandemic, during the sheltered in year when everybody fell down those rabbit holes and joined those, um, online conspiracy groups, whatever. And, and the, and the, and even what we sometimes call the cult deverse, even that has changed now because now we have internet based cults. Well, that's, that's relatively new. And it's a different, it's a little bit of a different kettle of fish than the,

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, and even to your point, even, um, with young people, the influencers who were selling makeup to start, I mean, they are, there are some of them who were not selling makeup, they're selling ideology, and they're exactly. These kids are feeling like they are, they wanna belong. And, and so they're there vulnerable because they're kids to begin with, and, and that there's something that they can do where they're part of someone's

Dr. Janja Lalich: Right

Dr. Robin Stern: Group, and they get rewarded for that, and they feel structured.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yeah. Or like, or like that guy Andrew Tate, I mean, you know, he was a huge online influencer and, you know, yeah. So it's, I think the more we can continue to educate through the podcast, and there've been some really good documentaries. Um, you know, I've always been in some Hmm.

Dr. Robin Stern: And you've been in some, I've

Dr. Janja Lalich: Been in some, yeah. But, you know, it's always been difficult to get into the schools to educate about cults because they, they're afraid you're gonna talk about religion. And I say to them, look, I can talk for a year and a day and never mention the word religion, , you know, it's not about religion, it's about structure and behavior and practices. Um, but that kind of education, getting it down the line, I think the more we can do that, um, that that'll be important. And gaslighting is about it. It's, it's, it, it, it, my understanding anyway, is about breaking the person down. Yes. They lose their sense of self,

Dr. Robin Stern: They lose their grounding, and they lose, they

Dr. Janja Lalich: Lose their grounding. They become completely attached to that person, even though that's the person who's harming them. It's the same thing in a cult. Right, exactly.

Dr. Robin Stern: And they're un onboard. I mean, like, you talk about vertigo, it's like, like you don't know where your, like where your ground is, where your reality is, where you can, yeah. So there's, there's very significant, um, synergy and overlap. But, um, I, I don't wanna leave. Uh, well, I don't wanna leave because I so enjoy being with you, this conversation. But I, I also don't wanna leave without telling, uh, telling people where they can find you. So, um, for people who are listening, where can they go to buy your books, to read your research, to find you, to hear you, to watch the documentaries?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, um, I have two websites. One, one is the Lalich Center, which is just, uh, ledge center.org. That's a nonprofits website. And then the other one is janya lalich.com. Uh, and both of those have contact forms that people can fill out if they want to contact me or invite me to their university or whatever it might be. Um, and then I have a, a, a virtual per personal assistant who, uh, basically handles my schedule and sets up meetings, but there's a great deal of material on, on those websites. And then of course, I'm on Instagram. I have, I have a social media manager who's also a cult survivor, and I'm on all the social media. And of course, all my books should be available through Amazon. Um, and the take back your life, the audio book is coming out next week, which is great. Oh,

Dr. Robin Stern: Congratulations. That's one. Yeah.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Yeah. Uh, I didn't read it myself. I couldn't do, I couldn't lock myself in a studio for that long. But, um, I did read just the introduction and my poem and the acknowledgements, but, um, yeah, because that seems to be really how people are reading these days, which again, is beyond me. I'm old school. I wanna hold that book in my hand, , but . Um, and then, like I said, I'm hoping we'll be offering some workshops again this spring and summer, the, the course for therapists and perhaps some more writing workshops and things like that. Um, so I, I actually think it's pretty easy to find me. I'm, I'm actually struggling to hide a little bit these days, .

Dr. Robin Stern: And if you, if you were to leave the audience right now with just a few things to, um, help them marshal their protective assets so that they're less vulnerable, what, what would you say?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Well, I, I think one thing is to slow down when you're being offered something and to really check it out. Um, you know, I always say nobody ever buys the first car they look at. So don't sign on to the first retreat somebody suggests to you, or, um, it's some online marketing scheme. I mean, ask questions, do research, ask, ask people who were part of it and left. I mean, as much as the internet is, is a little bit of a danger these days. There's also a great deal of information on the internet. So if you're being invited to something, and mo you know, most people are recruited through friends, family, or a coworker more than 60%. And that's why it's hard to say no. It's somebody you know who's inviting you to something, but type the name of that, whatever it is, into your search engine, and next to it, write criticism and see what comes up.

Dr. Janja Lalich: And it's a great way to suss out, you know, what kind of information is out there before you sign onto something that could really, ultimately harm you. Um, it's really slow down. Do your research, ask questions. If your questions don't get answered, that's one of the biggest red flags. Yeah. If it gets turned back on you, you can't, no. They're gonna say, oh, take, just take our workshop, then that'll answer your question. Or do this, read this book, and then ask the question. Well, by the time you do that, you forgot the question. So get those questions answered. There should be transparency.

Dr. Robin Stern: And one more question from me. Um, I'd love to know what your answer is to this question. For people who feel like the ghost of gas lighting or the ghost, the, the long tail of having been in a cult is following them. How do they trust again?

Dr. Janja Lalich: Mm. Trust is one of the huge issues, of course. Um, baby steps, baby steps. Um, if you're making new friends or you're dating someone, or even if you're applying for a job, um, make sure that person isn't doing anything that, that is insulting to you or harming you or making fun of you or humiliating you like it. You know, we're taught so much in these groups, and I think in these gaslighting relationships that we're selfish, right? Oh, it's all about you, right? No, this is a time, if I may say, to be selfish. It's about you and your self-care and taking care of yourself and trust your instinct. If something doesn't feel right, don't go for it. Don't go for it. And, and also, if you have a network of, of friends and supporters rely on that network, ask other people, what do you think of that guy? Does he seem okay to you? You know, he said this to me the other night. Does that sound okay to you? Check it out with other people. But trust is trust, trust is earned. It, it doesn't just happen in a day.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for those beautiful words of wisdom.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Oh, you're welcome.

Dr. Robin Stern: And thank you for being with me for this hour, for giving so much to our listening audience. Um,

Dr. Janja Lalich: Thank you for wonder.

Dr. Robin Stern: Delightful, really. And, um, let's be in touch.

Dr. Janja Lalich: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Robin,

Dr. Robin Stern: And thanks everyone for listening and tuning in for Dr. Janja Lalich. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lenz, and me. The podcast is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.