Podcast Player Episode 011

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center For Emotional Intelligence and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I am thrilled to have with me TUCKER, who is a recording artist, pop star, my friend, and, uh, the singer songwriter who created Can't Help Myself, which I had the honor of doing some voiceovers in during musical interludes, and he'll tell you more about that. Um, but I am just really so happy TUCKER to have you with us, and thank you for coming today.

TUCKER: Thanks for having me, Robin. I'm really excited to be here. I'm a big fan of the pod and you, and I'm very, very excited.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. So let's talk about, um, I think it'll be interesting for everyone who's listening to hear how you got involved with music and feelings, and then specifically later on a little bit about gaslighting and what attracted you to the subject and, um, what compelled you to write the song. But before that, uh, you have a long history of working with me and bringing music to emotional intelligence presentations in New York City, working with educators and using music as, as a healing pathway for students and, and, um, teachers and leaders. Can you talk a little bit about that and what attracts you to music as a healing, uh, as a vehicle for healing?

TUCKER: Sure. Uh, yeah, for, for me, what I love about music is that it's the universal language, right? So we, we live in a world where there's so many different cultures and backgrounds and languages that people can speak in. And I find that music as, as I was growing up, and I, I I, I, I grew up in a very musical household. So my mom is a songwriter and a singer, and my dad's a producer and a event coordinator and voice actor. And so there was always music around. And for me, I found that regardless of who I would meet when I was growing up, if we spoke different languages, if we came from different backgrounds, you could put on music and have an instant connection with somebody else. Because there, even if we, you didn't speak the same native tongue, you had an understanding of what you were hearing.

TUCKER: And that really interested me as, as someone that ultimately ended up going to college at the new school where all of my study at the time was about language and communication and progressive education. And, uh, I, when I was reading a lot of Fuco and the rest, and I found that as I delved deeper into my scene in New York, I would meet people from all these different backgrounds, and I didn't always know how to communicate with them. But the second we put on music, it became an instant connector. Uh, and so when we started working together, uh, you know, through, uh, our nonprofit that my parents founded, uh, seaside, uh, whose mission, you know, is to bring together people of divergent backgrounds through the use of different sound arts, which could mean, you know, music, spoken word, singing, writing in the effort to try to promote wellbeing and heal wounds, lift spirits, uh, and just lessen the distance between people of these different backgrounds.

TUCKER: It became very clear to me that a way we could do that is with people that are practicing the utmost of emotional intelligence, which is why it was such an exciting prospect to work with you and your colleagues from the Yale Center of I. Uh, and so we would go into these New York City public schools in the training sessions you guys were doing, and would be the musical component of those training sessions. And what I found to be really interesting vis-a-vis my own, uh, joy that came from separately outside of those sessions, finding music as a common ground with people. We were able to take these really, um, you know, academic emotional concepts that we were talking about, musicalize them, and then reach people who might not have understood the academia of it all. So it, it, it was a really profound way to see that music can really connect on all different types of levels. Uh, most importantly, one that's about emotional intelligence. And for me, that's the most exciting part about music, whether it's in that context or a pop music context, is that we're communicating something, uh, which sometimes can be masquerading around in a pop context as just like a catchy little singable thing. But we have an opportunity to say something a little bit deeper, uh, and yet still keep it very accessible and singable and reachable for people.

Dr. Robin Stern: I, I'd love to know, um, when, when you realized that music was healing for you.

TUCKER: I, I think I realized it very early in my life. Again, I think just being the product of my specific parents, there was, there was music around constantly, and I, I just remember I would be sad or, you know, like figuring out how to identify feelings and emotions, and I would put on music. And it had this ability to transform so much of what I was feeling as a young person. Like I think many people do when they're young, feel so isolated and alone and misunderstood. And that certainly was a part of my experience. But I remember I would put on like cast albums, like, like Funny Girl and Gypsy and hear these like, beautiful orchestral arrangements of iconic musical theater cannon songs. And they would just like, overcome me emotionally or, uh, you know, my mom and her peers who were very involved in the sixties Tin Pan alley songwriting scene, you'd listen to, you know, my godmother Ellie Greenwich's songs like a Leader of the Pack and, uh, river Deep Mountain High. And they just have this ability to transform these very isolated emotions to make you feel less alone. And by the time you were done, you were dancing and singing and moving. And for me, that was the biggest early indication that music was a really special tool that could aid people in their emotional intelligence. I, I'm, I'm, I'm curious for you too, I mean, like, are, are there songs that peak out for you or memories or experiences where you feel like music was an aid in your emotional toolbox?

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you for that question. That's really interesting. I haven't thought about it in a million years. I definitely, yes, I can remember that, um, in those days we had what is called a record player

TUCKER: At . What's that?

Dr. Robin Stern: had, um, records on this player and I, uh, would go into my room and I, I'm specifically thinking about times where I was like a preteen and, um, or in junior high school and my group of girlfriends and I would have songs that we listen to all the time and, and we would just put those songs on and, um, whether they were songs to inspire us to communicate more effectively, although we didn't think of it in those terms. We said, well, I have to talk with him about that, or I have to deal with that. Right. But, um, songs that were about bringing people closer through communication or songs that were, uh, healing the heart after a breakup or, um, songs about saying goodbye for the summer and coming back again, um, see You in September, I think was the name of one of those songs that I remember, and playing it over and over and over again. Or, um, going to someone's house, a friend's house when they were going through a breakup, or they weren't sure if somebody cared about them anymore. And also listening to a song over and over again. And somehow at the end feeling like you yourself had had a catharsis listening to that song

TUCKER: That I, I resonate with that experience so much. And I, I think especially with pop music, that's one of the things that I love about really effective pop music, right, is that it, it puts into a two to three minute little cannon, all these really intense feelings in a very catchy, singable accessible form that you just because of dopamine release in your biology, you want to hear them over and over again. Which is why as songwriters, we have such an opportunity to say things that go a little bit deeper than just like, let's go to the club. Let's have a bunch of drinks, , you know, like, to try to say something a little bit more emotionally in tune with a human experience. Uh, not because those other kinds of songs aren't really fun. But, uh, for me, that's what motivates me as an artist, is to find that experience that you were having with your friends where you wanna listen to this thing over and over and over again that communicates something about how we're feeling.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So it's wonderful for you writing the song, um, and even more so knowing that your song will reach so many people and be healing and be inspirational. So, um, just following my own segue here, uh, what brought you to gaslighting? What brought you to write about the kind of relationship that can be so destroying or crazy making where you feel like you are, there's no way out, or you can't get out or you can't help yourself?

TUCKER: Yeah. Well, I was, I mean, we had been doing some work together, uh, vis-a-vis the center, uh, in the New York City public school system. And I was in a, I would call it a situation ship. I don't even know if that's the right term the kids are using these days.

Dr. Robin Stern: Tell me, what does that mean?

TUCKER: Well, I think what it means is that you don't really know what the relationship is or what it isn't. Um, it's not a relationship. It's not, uh, it, it just doesn't have a definition. And I, which is it's very definition, ironically, . Uh, but I remember reading in your book, because we've been doing this work together about the struggle between the gaslight and the person being gaslit and about that, that, um, not, not only the power struggle itself, but the tension of the unknown of what this is or isn't. And I remember, I, I came to you and I said, is it possible to gaslight yourself? And what you said to me at the time was that typically a person who's feeling like they're gaslighting themselves has been gaslight by somebody else. And I started writing this song called Can't Help Myself about how this person was telling me one thing and then telling me another thing about the nature of the relationship, or saying that they really wanted X, Y, and Z when they were really acting in a way that made them want A, B, and C.

TUCKER: Um, it was just very hyper opposite, but ultimately it made me feel like I couldn't escape it and that it was my willingness to be in it. Um, and you heard it and you said, yeah, that's definitely a product of gaslighting. Um, and I at that moment was saying to myself, well, we need a clinical diagnosis, in this song, if it's really gonna be about gaslighting. Cause again, when you're singing just about being in a situation ship mm-hmm. , it might come off as very, um, you know, accessible and understood and something very, um, relatable potentially. Cuz unfortunately so many of us find ourselves in these kinds of relationships. But I wanted to use the song as an opportunity to let people know what they're going through beyond the, oh, that's something I've gone through too, but with something clinical that they could point back to in order to attempt to prevent themselves from entering into more relationships, like the ones that we are, are all finding ourselves in.

TUCKER: And so I said, you know, would you put your clinical diagnosis of gaslighting into the bridge? And you were guided up to say yes. Uh, and so I think it's a really interesting song because not only does it have, um, you know, these catchy sing ability moments in them, but you also walk away if you do resonate with the experience that the singer, in this case I am going through, you have an opportunity to, you know, have a professional tell you what you might be experiencing. And that's, uh, that, I don't know many pop songs that are doing that. So I'm really proud of the work that we've done and hopefully we're gonna allow people to, uh, find more end goal understanding of their own experience.

Dr. Robin Stern: Absolutely. I feel the same way. I think that the more we can get the message out, um, and in such a fantastic way, I mean, you're singing is amazing and the song is amazing. So just putting the word out and elevating the concept makes, just makes it, uh, so much more accessible to people. So back to though the, the situation ship that you were in, when did you realize that it was in fact, um, gaslighting you, uh, you talk in the song or you sing in the song and you wrote in the song about the mismatch between when, um, what you were told and what you actually experienced. Was that the clue that something was wrong, radically wrong? Like what, how did you know?

TUCKER: Well, fortunately I had Dr. Robinson a a phone call away to ask questions, but I, it, it was that moment that led me to ask the questions because I think that when somebody, and this is just from my own experience of really getting into gaslighting as a concept now through your work, you know, it's, it's amazing how there's a difference between people, and this is just my own personal experience that I've learned now. But, but man, I don't know that this is necessarily my own diagnosis that should be reached for everybody. But in my own life I've found that there's a difference between people who aren't really sure of what they want. So they're trying out a bunch of different ways of communicating in order to further understand what their heart is really after. And people who tell you they want one thing, but act in a very different way because it's not necessarily what they really want, and it becomes about power and control.

Dr. Robin Stern: How would you know the difference? Like what kind of communication, um, would tell you one thing as opposed to another, like, I'm not really sure where I am, or I'm sure where I am, but actually your behavior says something different.

TUCKER: I, I think what I noticed was that people in my life who would say to me, you know, can I try this? Can we, can we experience this? I think I'm looking for something like this. They were people who had enough self-awareness in their communication to understand what they were. And were not looking for in given relationships, whether those were friendships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships, you know, all different types of components of what it means to be a person who's searching. I think the difference in this particular situation ship that prompted the song was that one person was sort of giving me language that they thought would keep me around, um, but then acting in a way that made me feel like I didn't really wanna be around anymore. And it, it, it's, and, and I've heard you talk about this too, Robin, and it's, it really I think has a lot to do with what I was experiencing.

TUCKER: There's that gut moment that you have with someone where even if you've been gaslit to the point where you're a little brainwashed and you feel like it's your fault or that you should be there cuz you're looking for some kind of love and support that you might not be getting elsewhere, there's still that gut feeling amidst it that says something isn't right. Something's kind of off. And that's where I, when I really started asking the questions, because this person was saying, I wanna be with you, you're my favorite person in entire world. They've been telling me the same thing for months. But they wouldn't wanna integrate me into their life. You know, they, they were very eager to keep me at an arm's length. They didn't want to, um, cross particular boundaries with me, which I would think are boundaries worth crossing when you want someone to be in your life.

TUCKER: Um, and it eventually was sort of a wake up call, like this gut thing I is telling me that this person is saying one thing and doing another. And at this point, even amidst the gut, I feel confused. And that confusion mixed with a feeling like it was my fault, is what made me start examining whether it was in fact gaslighting and asking those questions. Because as I've learned, and now that we've put in this song, gaslighting isn't necessarily always as black and white as you are saying one thing and doing another thing. It can often be paired with that third component of, I did it, I'm the person that messed this up. I'm the one who's causing this problem. It's a me issue. And unfortunately it becomes a me issue when you're stuck in it. But sometimes you're not the source of the issue.

Dr. Robin Stern: What made you think you were or could be?

TUCKER: When someone is giving you love bomb language, as I like to call it with my friends, which basically means like, I love you, you're the greatest, you're this, you're that. But then you feel like they aren't giving you what you need or like they're only saying it to you to get what they need. And that power and control you start thinking, well maybe I'm not so great. They say I'm really great, or they say they really love me and they wanna be with me, but because I'm feeling weird about this in my gut, therefore I must be in the problem.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so what was, um, what was your friends re uh, what were your friends saying to you at that time? Were people saying, Tucker, this is like nowhere for you? Or, um, Hey man, what are you doing? Like

TUCKER: I got such a different reaction from every different friend, which I think is such a testament to how gaslighting has really permeated so many human relationships. Cause I have some friends that would say, oh, this is a red flag. You're being gaslit. This person just wants to be with you and you know, but doesn't really wanna be with you. So they're telling you what you wanna hear and trying to maintain some control to keep you in their orbit without really keeping you in their orbit. And then I'd have other friends saying to me, oh no, but they're saying such sweet things and they really, really like you. Like maybe you need to think about this cuz their words, you know, you should trust what they're saying versus their actions. And you know, maybe they're just not ready for certain things and we should excuse that behavior and I'll be the first person always in any relationship to say that it's about give and take and about meeting people where they are and not pushing your agenda upon them. But when it's consistent for a long enough time that you start asking the questions that we're talking about right now, that's when you know a relationship isn't necessarily empowering you but damaging you. And uh, that's what I started feeling more and more as time went on, especially with the mix of, uh, responses I was getting from my friends.

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting. I'm so sorry that that was hurtful to you, but look at what it generated.

TUCKER: Well, and that's the thing that I love about being a songwriter, you know, is that yeah, of course we never want each other and our friends and our family or any person to experience hurt. Um, but I find that it's so important to have experiences as an artist, especially because what else will we have to write about and how else are we of service to other people if we're not experiencing things and reacting to them and transforming them into something that says something about the experience in a way that we've learned something from. Um, I know like the very obvious typical response that is like, take your broken heart and turn it into art. But I've yet to find my rhyming adage about pop music and being hurt , you know, hopefully I'll find it eventually, but it's one of the greatest tools I have as an artist is to transform it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well it's a beautiful way to think about it and it's also so generous of you to, um, to do the work you're doing and to be transparent and vulnerable and out there, uh, in the spirit of healing yourself continuously, but also and also healing other people

TUCKER: Well for I was gonna say thank you. It's very sweet to hear and I, I just, I find that my, my real mission right, is like, how do we, how do we take these experiences that we're having and reflect them back in a world, in, in my musical world that champions, you know, at least, especially in the age of Spotify that we're in now, like two minute songs that are catchy and easy and sing. You know, how do we take this skill that we have to communicate something but have it go a little bit deeper? And so, uh, to hear that it's being received by someone who I respect really in your field about emotional intelligence and putting feelings on the forefront really means a lot to me. And to have you be a part of it is also really special for me. So thank you for saying that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Wonderful. Um, wonderful to have you contributing to, to the world in this way. I I do have a, taking a deeper kind of question for you. Um, what do you think you learned from your parents, uh, in your early years of receiving messages that allowed you to, even though you were stuck for a while, have the strength to name it eventually and move through it? Because many people who were in gaslighting relationships are stuck there for a really long time. And over the years that I've been in practice, it can take somebody, somebody years to get out of a relationship. When they identify almost from the very outset, this doesn't feel right. But then the conversation you have with yourself, well maybe it's me, let me give them another chance. The empathy trap where you get stuck in somebody's shoes for a period of time and you forget about your own needs because you're only thinking about theirs.

Dr. Robin Stern: Or the explanation trap where you explain it away while his mother was so controlling or her mother was so controlling and intrusive. That's why I can't make demands and it's okay, I'll put myself on the side and a million other reasons, maybe not a million, but several other reasons that keep you stuck. I can't leave while he thinks so badly of me, I really wanna convince him I'm really a good guy. It's not me, it is him until he agrees I have to stay or I'm, I'm cool, I'm cool. You know, I'm strong enough to take this. Cool.

TUCKER: It's so amazing how you just distilled so much of what I was saying with clinical diagnosis, uh, you know, the empathy of trap. I was like, yeah, these are, that's what I was trying to say. Great. Thank you. Um, yeah, I I, to bring it back to my parents of what you're asking, like how did I integrate tools? I'm, I'm so fortunate to have the parents that I have and I know a lot of people say that, but I, I really think I would love to take first place on this one cuz my, my mom is someone who left high school when she was in 10th grade to be in a band with Jimmy Hendrix. And conversely, you know, my, my dad on the other end of the parental spectrum was, is a serious academic and, you know, is very involved in the progressive art world and the jazz world.

TUCKER: And by association of really living a life that was about what he really wanted. He never takes any BS from anyone. He is very about his path. He's a very welcoming, emotionally intelligent person, but the second you try to manipulate in a certain way or show your true colors, that's sort of ugly and disturbed. He's, he's no longer there. So from a very early age, I had the guidance of two parents who were really eager to let me be who I was and to own feeling a life that was mine and wasn't influenced by people who could hurt. And I also grew up in a house that was giving me that message while I was being tremendously bullied growing up. You know, I I was a closeted gay kid in a Ivy League prep school and there was a lot of entitlement in those environments and a lot of, um, you know, cis white privilege going on.

TUCKER: Um, and I think that I I I, I also had a lot of teachers beyond my parents who were helping me at a very early age to identify bullying just as, you know, an an an actual behavior from people. And I remember I had one teacher and this girl would in, in this class with this teacher, like every day would make me the brunt of her whole experience and get the whole class to laugh at me and call me names and make me cry in front of everyone. And I just didn't have e even though I was getting the messages from my parents of, you know, you're so wonderful and follow your own path and choose the people you want. I just didn't yet have the tools to integrate that self-love in behavior and in radical self-acceptance to be okay in those sorts of environments.

TUCKER: And those instances where people were able to bully me to the point where I couldn't control my physical emotional output. And I remember this teacher saw it going on, and she called me into her office and I must have been, you know, in fourth or fifth grade at this point. So I was very young and she sat me down and was like, this girl who's bullying you, she's a. And I, I'm never, I'm never gonna forget it. And I, I, I didn't know what that really meant at the time, but she started defining that in a more complex emotional way than just using the negative language of a B word and was saying to me, you know, this is someone who was getting off emotionally in a positive way for them on making you sad. And that is not a nice thing to do to someone.

TUCKER: And you are someone who wants to make people feel really good, which is, I think what I was getting from my parents about loving yourself, accepting people for who they are. And the second that I had that reality check from someone who wasn't my parent, it became very clear to me what kinds of person I wanted to be in the world and what other types of people there were. I also had a gym teacher growing up who was very, very hard on me. And I remember my dad would say to me, you know, there's a lot of Mr Cs in the world. There's a lot of people who are gonna be very hard on you and mean to you because you, you don't fit into their bubble or their expectation of who you're supposed to be. And that's when I was able to start identifying behavior of emotional nature from people.

TUCKER: But it took me many, many years to integrate all of these lessons learned that I'm talking about into a place of radical self-love and acceptance and acceptance of otherness in my own life. Not only for myself, but for other people in order to walk around and be able to transform these things. And as I'm sure you know, and people listening know, it's not a, it's not a journey that you learn and all of a sudden it's better and it's, it's perfect all the time. We're constantly learning to in implement these sort of lessons that we can live in a more loving world that's rapidly changing all around us. And it would be crazy to think that we can just change on a dime like that. We're, we're having experiences left and right and up and down and all around us. So it takes time. Just takes time.

Dr. Robin Stern: So your, your parents, um, are very wise and very generous and very loving and, um, emotionally intelligent and, uh, you downloaded a lot of that for free

TUCKER: , I really lucked out. I really, really did really

Dr. Robin Stern: Luck out. I mean, you've been very blessed and I, I have the privilege of knowing your parents and the joy of knowing your parents for many years. Um, and I think that I just love hearing that they were consistent and loving and compassionate and their message to you. And I think that whether it's with gaslighting or, um, in a positive, wonderful way with, with good messages, with healthy me messages, with compassionate and kind messages, the consistency over time is what allows you to really take it in.

TUCKER: Yeah. I mean, I'm curious for you, Robin, as someone that encounters so many people going through these intense emotional experiences in your day-to-day work, how do you, for yourself implement those same tools that you're giving to other people? Like how, how do you navigate that in your own interpersonal relationships outside of, you know, the ones that are of service to other people? Like when you're just going through your day-to-day life, how do you remind yourself to use these tools too? Because that's gotta be really difficult I imagine, to like remind yourself that you too are a person going through all of these emotional things like everybody else.

Dr. Robin Stern: I think, um, part of it is my nature. I mean, I'm just have been blessed with a, um, the mood meter and the quadrants and the mood meter, a green personality for the most part, , I'm basically content and, um, in a kind of peaceful energy much of the time. And then, and that set me up well to be a therapist and then being a therapist continues to reinforce that. Um, and I also believe in kindness deeply and believe in conversation and the power of emotions to shape your actions and what you can do about that when you have awareness. Um, I grew up, you may know this, but I grew up watching this childhood TV store, Shirley Temple, you know, Shirley,

TUCKER: I love Shirley Temple, of course.

Dr. Robin Stern: So Shirley Temple was my first role model and um, every Saturday my mother would, uh, turn on the television. I was one television in the house and probably , um, not there when I was born, but maybe a few years later. Uh, and I would see how she would influence people and bring people together with love and kindness. And I thought, I like that and that's the right way to be. And I believe that deeply. So I hopefully practice that daily. And, and the other thing also is that I, growing up in, um, the home that I did where, um, my parents, as your parents are of Jewish faith, uh, believe in learn the, I guess the, um, concept of Tku alum,

TUCKER: Right? Right.

Dr. Robin Stern: And Tku alum, my daughter now tells me, um, which I always thought was heal the world. She, Melissa told me that it's really heal thy self and hear the heal the world, which I didn't know, but it makes sense yourself first and then heal the world. And I believe that it is our responsibility to, uh, living on this planet as a human being to heal whatever we can to do our part in healing the world. And so living that way or with that mindset and with compassion and kindness daily is the way I chose to live early on and, um, the way I choose to live. And also I think, um, the third idea that came to my mind just to share with you now and our, and all of our listeners, is that my mom, as loving as she was on the one hand, was also very critical.

Dr. Robin Stern: And nothing I ever did was good enough. When I first, um, got my PhD for instance, she said, oh, well when are you going in to have a radio show? And I, I hope she's kind of watching from wherever she is on hod because it's not a radio show. But now I have a podcast and it's a few years after I had my doctorate, but there was always something that I should have done better, could have done better. And I remember thinking that, um, I didn't wanna be like that. I was support people where they were and help them move forward in life if they wanted to, but not to push and not to uh, um, say critical things to negate the power of the present just in the service of getting something different in the future. So I was lucky to have those influences on my being and lucky to take advantage of them and have the personality to, um, to be able to do that.

TUCKER: Yeah, I, it's so interesting to hear that cuz I, I get sort of known amidst my immediate really close friend group as sort of like the pusher of the group. Um, and not in like a strange, crazy way, but in the like emotional, you know, you can go to the next level, you can do the next thing. How do we get you to where you're going? And on, on the one hand, I think from a lot of my friends, it's very welcome, but from a lot of other friends of mine, it's been a source of real contention because I'm not meeting people where they are and I'm not choosing to be that best version of myself that just accepts the present moment. And in an age, especially cuz I grew up in a social media age where you're constantly looking at perfect images of other people and how many numbers they have.

TUCKER: Especially now that I work in the music business, we're so much of it is about number output and engagement. You know, you end up constantly comparing yourself to other people and how you're not this and you're not that, as opposed to owning I'm right where I am, I'm right where I'm supposed to be. Everything is happening the way it's supposed to be happening. And so I've been trying to implement a lot more of that last point we're making into my own life, not only with my friends in terms of uh, accepting them where they are, but accepting myself where I am. And to recognize that, well of course I wanna do my best to escape being a victim of gaslighting escape, being a part of relationships that don't serve me emotionally. Um, I, I also have to acknowledge that those things happen and as an artist they happen.

TUCKER: So, so that I can transform them into music. These things happen so that I can keep learning how to meet people exactly where they're, uh, so we can make the world a better place than how we found it when we were treated certain ways. Uh, it's, it's, it's our job to treat other people the way we wanna be treated. Um, and it's, it's easier said than done obviously as a person that is not necessarily having the automatic disposition for it the way that you do in your personality, but also being the victim of different traumas and relationships and learning how to overcome them. And that's one of the things I found is so wonderful about emotional intelligence work in its nature is that it sort of forces you to be where you are and to own where you are and not to expect more of yourself than what you're genuinely feeling.

TUCKER: Um, and that is a really special reminder that as a human being, like we're allowed to permit ourselves to feel these emotions, but then to figure out how to transform them as opposed to negate them. Um, and that's what I love about a lot of the work that you're doing too and why I'm so interested in continuing to try to do it in my own. Cause if we're not trying to transform our experience into something bigger and better and more positive, then we're continuing to knowingly live in positions that we don't wanna be in. And if we can be of service in the process, not only can we heal for ourselves, that we can help o other people heal too.

Dr. Robin Stern: So. Well said. Really beautifully said. And I, you know, I have a question about gaslighting and the music industry and just wondering whether it's, um, easy to gaslight yourself in some way when you compare yourself to artists that are rising and tell yourself stories. And I'm not, I'm really not asking you this personally, but, uh, just in general, whether you think that the music industry ha does that to people. I mean, I know we're talking a little bit or you were talking about the envy that you feel and that everybody feels when they're comparing their out their insides to other people's outsides on, on the internet. Um, but uh, and we certainly have seen that on the Yale campus. I've seen it in my private practice with young people I know and, and with older people I know also, especially when your life is not going the way you wish it were going or want it to go be going or think it should be going. But I just wonder about the whole industry and whether it, um, it can be dark for people.

TUCKER: Yeah, I mean, as I get older and have more experience and hear about other people's experience, I recognize that so many industries, almost all industries are like this. And the only way I can speak about the music one is to speak from my own experience because I'm so knee deep in it. But I find that what the, the, the big artist struggle, and I think it's also a human struggle, but I identify it as an artist struggle because of my own experience, is that we're constantly saying, I'm not doing enough. I am, you know, I, this song could be so much better and what I, or you know, this song could be stronger or that other person's song is so much better or you know, like there's all this assessment and hierarchy involved in it. Especially because now the thing that's being stressed in the music business like never before is numbers.

TUCKER: Because we live in streaming environments rather than radio environments or CD environments or record player environments. Back in the day, decades ago, you would listen to you, you would purchase a physical piece of music that you could put on a given player, whether it was a record player or a Walkman or a CD Rom or you know, like what whatever your output was. And you would have a physical experience with what you were listening to that was individual between you and the physical piece of music. Now music is consumed in such a different way because we look at a screen, whether it's our computer screen or our phone or our iPad or whatever our streaming device is, we go to a platform. And again, while a lot of these platforms have done so much, especially for independent artists, there's so much music out there now cuz everyone has the ability to put it out.

TUCKER: Uh, and what you see is not only, or rather what you take in is not only the music that you're consuming in your ears, but you're seeing songs now and you're seeing cover art. You're seeing how how many streams it has, you're seeing how many streams the other songs that are popular for that artist have. And you as a consumer start making an assessment about follower culture. You start making an assessment about, well is this really hot? Are people really liking this? Should I be liking it too? And for as much as all of us, us I think like to think that we are, we have our own musical barometer and we can make choices about what we like and don't like. Those numbers are playing an effect on all of us because it's simply how we consume now. And so I think that gaslighting can really come into play here because you can start, especially in a can't help myself context about, not as a song itself, but as a concept.

TUCKER: You know, do you really like this music because you and your soul like it? Or because you saw the song before you heard the song. Um, and my mother was someone who really implemented that with me too because she was very into music videos and I was growing up cuz I grew up in like the T R L M T MTV age where you no longer heard the song first, you saw the song first. And so her big question for me was, did you see it or hear it first? Which song did you get into? In which way? So I think your question is a really interesting one, Robin, because does the music industry experience gaslighting in different forms? Sure. I'm sure in many ways there's a lot of interpersonal relationships between record companies and artists about, we don't really like this, but for all we know it could be really special.

TUCKER: Um, you know, there's probably somewhere in the middle of nowhere right now that's making one of the greatest pieces of music ever that won't even exist on TikTok or Spotify or whatever. And it'll end up being really great cuz good music will always prevail. But the question becomes, you know, how do we hear music without being inundated by all of the other components of what it means to take in music in 20 22, 20 23 and have it really be about the music itself? How do we let the music win? And that situation shift with music is something that, uh, is inherently a little bit about gaslighting cuz you don't know how you're really consuming it. Which part of you is falling in love with the music? You know, your, your, your eyes or your ears or your soul, you know,

Dr. Robin Stern: So interesting, TUCKER, I wish we had all day to talk about it, but we don't. Um, and so I wanna end on this note for now and hope we will come back to the podcast at another time. Um, what's next for you? What's next for you in your life and your music?

TUCKER: Sure. Uh, I am putting out a ton of songs next year that we're currently, uh, in mixed process. Four, uh, creating songs takes a long time, especially when you are a independent artist without major backing. So I, I'm very knee deep in preparation for a ton of music that's coming next year. I'm gonna start releasing songs in probably early spring of next year and just have a ton come out back to back to back. So I'm very, very excited about that.

Dr. Robin Stern: Where can people find you? And people are listening to this pod and, and I know that, um, they're going to wanna find you where, uh, where can they find you?

TUCKER: Sure. I'm on all platforms, uh, uh, in terms of social media platforms. My Instagram is at the TUCKER Graham as in the Instagram, but with my name in it, TikTok, the Tucker talk and so on. Uh, I have links for all of my socials and music platforms. Uh, and please, if you're listening, go check out, can't help myself featuring Dr. Robin Stern and myself. We'd love to have you guys listen to it and hopefully have it make a difference in your day-to-day experience. And if you know someone that might be in a like knee deep in a gaslighting relationship, please feel free to forward it to them cuz maybe they'll hear Robin's questions and my own experience, uh, song aside and resonate with what's going on and hopefully be able to escape and find a relationship that better suits the sorts of needs and people that they get to have around.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, thank you for that, TUCKER. I hope people will come and listen to or will go wherever they can to listen to, can't help myself. And I'm so glad to know that you have found a relationship that is gaslight free and that you are, you are happy as well.

TUCKER: Thanks, Alec. Will be very happy to hear that. Shout out to Alec, we love you so much.

Dr. Robin Stern: Shout out to Alec. So thank you very much TUCKER for coming on the podcast today. So to all my listeners, I hope that today was meaningful and fun for you. And if it was, please give us a great review and subscribe to the podcast. This is Robin Stern, I'm with Tucker today. Thank you for listening.

TUCKER: Thanks so much for having me, Robin. This is really a lot of fun and any chance I can have to talk about music and the power I can have on a deeper emotional level is always a good afternoon for me. So thanks for having me and hope you guys all got something really wonderful out of the pod today. Thanks

Dr. Robin Stern: For listening. I know everyone did. I certainly did myself. Thank you everyone. See you next time on The Gaslight Effect podcast. Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of The Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Ryan Changcoco, Mike Lenz and me. The podcast is supported by Gabby Caoagas and Sala Karangi, all of my work and my upcoming book is supported by Suzen Pettit, Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.