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Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.
Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Welcome
Dr. Robin Stern: Everyone to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm really thrilled today to have my friend and colleague, Zorana Ivcevic Pringle with me. Zorana is a senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and she, um, leads not only the center, but a large portion of the world in studying creativity. You know, not just the creative process, not just, I mean the creative thought. Lots of people have good ideas, right? But, um, how many of those people can manage themselves and walk through the process so that they actually create the things that they maybe are meant to create or could be meant to create? Were they able to manage and work with their feelings in a different way? Zorana and I have worked on so many projects together, and it is such a joy, partially because we like each other a lot, also because both of us love to be creative together, and your spark of creativity, your insight, and, and incisiveness with creativity as the velvet wrap around all of it is so exciting.
Dr. Robin Stern: She writes frequently for the Harvard Business Review, artnet US News, education Week, science Daily, and has a regular blog in, uh, psychology Today. Um, our new book is The Creativity Choice, and I think it's gonna be fantastic. When Ana first wrote a blog for Psychology Today on creativity, she had thousands of views in a very short time. And so it's something that people are hungry to hear, and for many people they don't even know that they're hungry to hear it until they hear it and they say, wow, I wanna know more about that. So, um, we'll talk about the creativity choice today with Dr. Zorana Pringle. So I'm gonna let you tell more about yourself and, and specifically how you, uh, how you got into creativity. How did you begin to embrace it as a scientist and as a human being.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Uh, well, thank you very much. Thank you for this stellar introduction and, uh, thank you for having me on the show. Um, I was interested in creativity probably before I knew the word creativity on a personal level. Um, but how I got to, how I got into the science of creativity is way back, not to date myself in years, but way back when I was looking, uh, for a topic of, uh, undergraduate thesis. Um, I knew I wanted to study interesting people. And, uh, of course, that's not something that you can do because that's not the scientific term. What is interesting people, what is interesting person to you might not be for me. So, had to define it and had to really think through what this word meant to me. And, uh, I have come down to, to realize that for me personally, that meant creativity. And that meant, uh, people who are engaging in the creative process, who are doing something with all those ideas they have, uh, and it's turned into a long-term career.
Dr. Robin Stern: So you don't just mean, um, painting when you say creativity. Can you please tell our listeners why creativity is not just about producing a piece of visual art?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Uh, I, I love starting with this question. 'cause I think it's fundamental. It's oftentimes we hear the word and we first think of symbols of art and artists. Uh, and oftentimes even when I speak to people and when I give talks and people hear what I am, uh, what I study, oftentimes I hear the comment, well, I'm not creative. I'm not really that artistic as an explanation of why they don't think they're creative. I think that's a really damaging thought because people can be creative in really anything. Um, I am not artistic either. I love the arts and I love enjoying it, but I am not, uh, creative in the artistic domain. My science is a creative outlet way of expressing thoughts and way of exploring something,
Dr. Robin Stern: Science, being creative. Can you say more, embroider the picture for us a little bit?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful question because sometimes we, we think of, oh, science is creative because discoveries, um, and because it has given us understanding of the universe, it has given us discoveries and medical care. And so when we think of discoveries, we recognize it as creative. Uh, but it's much more than that. When you think of scientific process, it is a deeply creative process. It is about asking questions. It is about figuring out big topics. It is figuring out what is missing. It is figuring out how questions could be asked in different ways, and then devising ways we can really think of them and, uh, and examining them, examining them in a, in a different way so that we can start answering those questions. So all of that is the creative process.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so I'm, I'm just thinking as you're talking that I wonder, uh, when you said earlier that you, you weren't gonna start personally about your connection to creativity. You were gonna start, um, as a scholar, but is anything you're describing now, um, with science and that process personally, uh, did that personally move you when you were young, before you started to, um, to study as a scholar?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : It, it did. It, uh, you know, in retrospect, some things you can, you can trace back and realize influences that you might not have been aware of at the moment. Uh, and I very distinctly remember some influences. And in particular, I was in first grade in an art, actually, it happened to be in an art class, and the teacher told us we could do anything we wanted. It was completely open. It had to do something with, um, an upcoming holiday independence day kind of holiday. Um, and, uh, I did not know what to do. I distinctly remember the feeling, uh, of not knowing and feeling of anxiety. Um, and well, I did what anybody would do in the moment. Uh, I just looked at what everybody else was doing, and everybody else was doing the same thing. And, uh, sure I did the same thing too.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : And when the teacher took all of the drawings and put them on the board, I realized something very interesting to me. I, I realized that 22 of the 23 students in the class, uh, did exact same thing. The main town square with this venetian fort, and they were flags flying, uh, very celebratory, but they were all the same. Uh, and then one student did something different. It was traditional at the time, to have a kind of a student talent show as a part of the celebration of the holiday. And what she did is a group of students in front of microphones. And, uh, I am not sure that I knew the word creativity at the time, uh, but in a way of, uh, you know, when Harry met Sally, I wanted what she had.
Dr. Robin Stern: Ana, what did you do with that insight?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Uh, I don't know what I did with that insight at the time. Uh, I am not sure I did anything with the insight at the time, uh, that was public. So I don't think that I did something different in school, which was, uh, which was a place where I wanted to perform. Uh, but I started experimenting more in private of trying to think of in different ways, trying to think of, and I really like drawing. So, uh, trying to draw unusual, uh, topics and or, or less conventional topics. Um, but one thing that I am very clear about is that that memory stayed with me, and that at different points in life, where it was a point of the title of the book is The Creativity Choice. And when, when I perceived that there was a choice involved, this memory came as that little voice on the shoulder.
Dr. Robin Stern: And I, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how, um, how we might see creativity in everyday decisions or everyday conversations that we're having with colleagues at work or with family, how we can support that creative process for people.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : I think it, oftentimes it is a matter of paying attention, noticing something, and oftentimes noticing emotions and identifying them. What's
Dr. Robin Stern: The connection between creativity and emotions?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : And I know you talk a lot about this in the show and really have spent a lot of time, uh, thinking about how we create tools to help people very granularly identify emotions. And, um, uh, one of my favorite, one of my favorite examples of creativity that I came across in my work came from a very unexpected place. So if I tell you that my favorite example of creativity, uh, in some ways, uh, comes from a supervisor in a, a food services unit in a hospital, what would you think of that? I would think, I wanna know more about that.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : So what happened is that, uh, this person, his name was Michael, um, noticed that workers in his unit, uh, were getting very tired. They were getting stressed, and they had aches and pains in their body. So what is their task? Well, their task is to read the little tickets, uh, that say, what is the food order for each patient during the day? And this is very important part of people's treatments. Uh, it supports treatment, but it can also, if it's wrong, uh, put it in danger. So it's important to get this right. And he noticed they were getting tired, they were getting stressed, and he wondered why. So he observed it. He first noticed this frustration they were having and the stress points, and then did not just tell them what is oftentimes done in times of stress, you should take, you should get better and more skillful at stress management.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : He did not say that. What he said instead is, what, let me get to the root of the problem. The root of the problem turned out to be that if you listen to this frustration, you can learn from it. You know that they are hitting a wall somewhere, and they, they were hitting the wall, they, where the tickets were, uh, it was not at eye level. So they had to look at tickets in one place, then reach very far away for the food items. It was poorly designed process. So he completely redesigned the process. And in redesigning it, the food orders were more accurate and which is important for patient safety and treatment, but it's also important for the health and wellbeing of the workers. And it kind of creates this cycle, this virtual cycle that started with Michael paying attention, identifying that there is a frustration going on, not disregarding it either implicitly by saying, you need to get better at stress management or explicitly by just, you know, saying, well, this is what it is.
Dr. Robin Stern: I wonder what the role of confidence and, um, agency plays in, uh, and, and feeling, um, not afraid to take initiative.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : I think you have actually asked two questions. One is about confidence, and another one is about feeling afraid. Let me address them separately.
Dr. Robin Stern: Right?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Um, so feeling afraid. I, I recently came across a quote by George O'Keefe, um, and, uh, she said that she was terrified of every single decision in her life, but that never prevented her from doing anything. And I very much identify with this. I'm an emotionally sensitive person. I tend to react strongly and I tend to be stress prone, but that never prevented me from doing anything. I truly am not comfortable with lots of things in life, but I do them anyway. And that is that difference between just asking what you are feeling versus asking, okay, you are feeling something, but now what do you do with that feeling? Is it going to overwhelm you and take you away from things that you need to do, which relates to the topics you talk about in this show all the time of taking away your agency, or you are going to find ways to act.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So it's so interesting because I was thinking about the, the fact that here we are with you about to publish a book, and at the beginning the thought of writing a book was something that did make you anxious, and yes. And yet, here you are. And so, so how did you get from that initial feeling of writing a book to, and I know actually you wrote an article about it or a blog about it today, which I think is so terrific and will be so helpful to many people. Um, can you speak a little bit about that? And then I'm gonna shift gears and we can talk a little bit about, um, some of the darker side of choices that people make, but please, um, how do you, how do you do it even when you say, how do you get started?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : So it's, uh, in, in getting started comes back to that idea of confidence. We do need confidence, but I think that sometimes people have a mistaken idea about the nature of confidence, as if confidence is an either or proposition it is not. Confidence is a degree. You are confident to certain extent. It's not 0% versus a hundred percent. And, um, I remember first considering writing a book, and actually, uh, I have to credit you for, for this inspiration moment. It was a, i I don't even know what we were talking about, but, uh, you said you need to write a book. Um, and it did not really occur to me up to that point. And my first, my, my impulse was to think that I cannot do it. But then I, I really approached it in a different way. Uh, I said, okay, right now I am not confident that I can do it, but let me look at this, this feeling of being overwhelmed or being insecure from a different perspective.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Okay, what is a book I think that I cannot write to book? Because book is this monumental entity in my mind. But what is a book? Well, book is a collection of 8, 9, 10 chapters. I have written individual chapters before and articles, therefore I know I can do each one. So if I write 10 times a chapter, I'm going to have a book. So I have completely reframe the idea of what the book is. And in that way it became more doable. Um, in my mind, of course, we are talking about what is in your mind. We are not talking about some objective things. Uh, and, uh, and that took away enough of that anxiety did not make me, uh, absolutely certain I can do. It did not make me, did not transform anxiety into happiness, which oftentimes is our mental mode, but it took just the edge off that I could now start acting.
Dr. Robin Stern: What was the first thing you did?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Well, the first thing I did is, uh, I have not written up to that point for the general audience, but for the academic audiences. And I started writing for publications that are aimed at the general audience. Uh, and the, the very first article I wrote had in two days, 12,000, uh, people who read it. And I have decided that this is a sign, this is an indication that I can learn how to do this.
Dr. Robin Stern: I think that's fabulous. I remember it so exciting, and you had an incredible, and have an incredible blog that people should know about on Psychology today.
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Dr. Robin Stern: So, because this is the Gaslight Effect podcast, um, I was thinking about how many times, uh, people must hear from like it's individual students or people in families must hear, you're not the creative type, or, you know, maybe, maybe you should rethink that. Like you're, you're not really creative. And, and I remember Mel, my husband, telling me a story about, um, an interaction he had with someone many years ago when he was in business. And the, his friend was either a painter or a musician or something like that. And he said to Mel, well, you know, people in in my field know about creativity, but people in your field don't know about creativity because you just do business. And Mel at the time thought he was getting paid a lot of money to make creative decisions about business
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Yeah, we oftentimes hear pronouncements, very general pronouncements about our creativity, and they take away our agency. Uh, they make us believe that creativity is an either or. It is a trait that you have or you do not have something that you are born with or you are not born with. And oftentimes how this happens is through the messages we get through our culture, and we get a very powerful message in, in, in our culture that creativity is associated with genius. Uh, we use the words,
Dr. Robin Stern: Where do we hear that?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : It's, we hear it everywhere. Uh, we hear it in unexpected places. Uh, when you, uh, when you hear examples of creativity, uh, they are examples that make you think that people have done something out of nothing and with no influences or no help from others. So you have these in the tech world, you have the story, the prototypical story of, uh, one or two guys, and they're usually guys in a garage, and they are in this bubble, um, as if they are outside of the world and, and, uh, society around them, uh, which is very far from reality. Uh, we get, uh, from our media and entertainment. Um, a colleague of mine has analyzed the comments, uh, uttered in the got talent show. And actually this show is in quite a few countries around the world, and they have analyzed it in several countries in the us, in Poland and in China. Um, and, uh, found that lots of the comments that are there, uh, give you the idea that you are born with it. This is a God-given talent. They do not acknowledge that there's a lot of effort that goes into it. They do not acknowledge that there is a lot of support that goes into it. And all of these things are important. We do. It doesn't just materialize in the moment.
Dr. Robin Stern: So if it, if you're not born with it, um, how then do you get it? Like, where does it come from if parents are listening to this podcast, right? And they wanna know, and educators are listening to this podcast, they wanna know how do we help people get it?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Yes. And, uh, it's, it's wonderful when you're mentioning parents and educators. There is, um, there is this phenomenon that, uh, that has been identified in research called Creative Mortification. And it is as severe as it sounds, uh, it is an instance and especially happens with young children who do not have yet developed the capacity to deal with, um, uh, challenging emotional events. And, um, uh, a teacher, oftentimes a teacher, but it can be a parent, says something that is very harshly critical of an effort that a child has put into something. Uh, and, uh, it can result even a single experience in a particular time, in a vulnerable time can result in a child not wanting to do that activity ever again in their lives. Imagine the power.
Dr. Robin Stern: You mean taking a chance on something?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Exactly. Imagine the power of a single experience and, uh, and imagine a world now where that is not the case. Imagine a world where we learn about the creative process and the nature of creativity. Some of the things that we have been talking about today that perhaps, uh, somebody is not interested in an artistic activity, but they're interested in a scientific activity, or they are interested in technology or crafts or any other area of human endeavor. Um, creativity can be expressed. Imagine learning that from an early age. Imagine getting support for experimentation. Uh, imagine getting access and opportunity, um,
Dr. Robin Stern: And imagine having the support for experimentation alongside of the skill building or the emotions that are likely to happen or often happen when you are experimenting and you do feel disappointed or you feel frustrated. 'cause I know our work and your work in particular, particular around creativity and emotions has to include that and does
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Exactly. And, uh, uh, what we do not, what we do not, uh, hear through our education and through our parenting efforts, uh, how creativity really functions it. Um, it is a process and it is never a smooth process.
Dr. Robin Stern: And so it's something you get, it's something you do.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : It is something you do. It is something that you take a kernel of something, a very vague idea. Usually we, we oftentimes praise ideas and the brilliance of ideas, but those ideas do not form fully form. They do not come into the world, uh, fully developed. They come into the world as infants. They come in this, uh, very vague state, and they get developed. They get changed. Uh, I know that you have written books, multiple books. I have written a book. We know that in the process of something that is a large project like that, the first ideas you start with are rarely the same as you end up with because your, your, uh, thinking clarifies or changes with feedback and with, uh, learning more. And we learn by doing, uh, in the creative process and in everything else. So you have to start with a kernel of something, and it's okay.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : It's just a kernel of something. You do not have to be certain how to, how to outline the whole step-by-step process. I think that oftentimes gets in the way to people, gets in the way, um, of saying, yes, I'm going to do this or try to do this, because you cannot outline the whole process. And you know what? Creativity doesn't work like that. Nobody can outline the whole process. Steve Jobs could not have outlined the process step by step when he was first embarking on the creation of the iPhone. He knew he wanted to do a phone, but he didn't know what it would look like in the end. And there were several false starts, and they had at one point to scrape complete product they developed because it wasn't right. So nobody can outline the whole process. And in our schools, we oftentimes teach doing by outlining step-by-step process.
Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I mean it, this is such a rich conversation, and I, and, um, one of the things that, I don't know if I asked you this before, but, or you just, um, freely talked about it, but how do you hope your book will, um, influence people's, uh, parenting education, um, working with colleagues, their ideas about creativity and how to support it?
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Um, I, I love this question because I have really thought about it. It is part of the reason why even embark on something. Uh, it's not that I wanted to write a book because I wanted to write a book. I wanted to write a book for some kind of an effect. And, uh, I think it is best summarized in from a conversation that, um, that I had with, um, uh, with a friend who, uh, is by every imaginable measure immensely creative in her professional life. She has a PhD from an Ivy League University in a scientific field. She has published in her area of research where she got trained. Uh, she became a business consultant, very, uh, very successful one. She founded a company that is, uh, breaking new ground, intriguing incurable diseases. Uh, I cannot imagine a more prototypical story of professional creativity. Yet when we were talking, she said she never thought of herself as creative for all the reasons we touched upon today.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Um, that we just don't tend to use that word if it's not in relation to an artistic, uh, artistic endeavor. That we don't recognize it in those choices we make when, uh, building new products, where building new ways of working and all of that is part of the creative process. And I want to draw the attention to this process of making choices and asking yourself, am I doing an easy choice? Am I doing, uh, or and conventional one oftentimes, or am I trying to do something that is, uh, that is going to be original and potentially make a difference? That is my hope that people, that people learn about this less talked about side of the creative process side, that is not just thinking that is doing, and to learn what are the common, uh, barriers to it so that their power is diminished.
Dr. Robin Stern: Uh, you know, I'm thinking as you're talking that when we are raising children and educating children, and even hiring colleagues and mentoring colleagues, there's a hope that they will, um, be expansive. Maybe not that word, maybe people don't think of that word, but that it's, there's a hope they'll really come into themselves, that they'll work to their fullest potential, um, that they will have a tremendous amount of satisfaction contribute in some important way. And when you're raising kids, you just want them to have a full life and to be happy and to, to learn. And, and some parents want their kids to contribute. Some kids from an early age want to contribute. And I love how expansive your thinking is. Um, importantly, and I don't know if I'm really having my mind around exactly what I wanna say, but, um, putting the, putting the, um, potential of being expansive in the hands through choice of each one of those people, each one of those students, each one of those colleagues, so that they can use their creativity and they can go through that process in the hopes of giving more, being more and feeling more.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : I, I like the word expansive. I really think it's a, it's an apt word because it, it speaks about opening possibilities. Um, and the, the title of the book is The Creativity Choice. So I talk about the choice, and we know that we as individuals make choices and make decisions. Uh, but I also am very conscious and purposeful that that does not mean just say yes, uh, that, uh, we cannot simply say, okay, it is, it is on you to just make this choice. And I think that you, you speak a lot to that in this podcast where there are circumstances when people, and you oftentimes speak about dramatic ones. Uh, but there are circumstances when people are not able to make the, their, that kind of choice because of other things that are going on. Uh, because we are not just individuals, we are individuals in groups, we are individuals in relationships, we are individuals in teams, in organizations, and all of these create a social infrastructure or an ecosystem in which that choice becomes possible or not. We have an opportunity to make that choice, or actually we do not have the opportunity to make that choice,
Dr. Robin Stern: Or actually, we are not the same self by the time the opportunity for the choice comes around that we were when we started the job, when we got into the relationship, when we got into the friendship. So that, that choice that we might have made at another time, as you're saying is not possible now. And I'm so glad you brought us back to gaslighting in, in, um, the final chapter of our time together this time, um, because I think it is something that I wanted to bring up to you. And so I thank you for bringing it up, that in gaslighting relationships, we're often giving over our reality to someone else. And the more we give over, the more we give up ourselves, the less agency we have ourselves, then of course, given everything we've been saying, the less creative we are. And I think one of the losses in the final stages, or in the most serious stage of gaslighting is the inability to feel joy. The inability to be expansive, to be abundant, and the inability to be creative.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : And, and I think that what we need to remember is, especially when we are talking about choices, because the language around choice is so individualized, uh, that this does not mean that if somebody is not showing creativity in their life, that is essentially for the lack of better terms, their fault. It is, oh, they just did not make the right choice. It is not like that. It is, we are, uh, we are individuals and we have a lot of agency in the normal circumstance, but our circumstances are not always normal. And sometimes they are real barriers on us that we need to acknowledge, and we also need to acknowledge them when, when those supports exist. Uh, 'cause, uh, you know, sometimes we talk about going back to that idea of genius. Steve Jobs this genius in a garage, in a bubble creating gut of thin air, which was very far from truth.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : He was a person with very strong family connections and deep relationships who was tinkering for a long time with this emerging technology of computers, uh, who was supported to go to college. He did not finish his degree because it was not something that he was attracted to, uh, to do formally. But he also had opportunities through there that were expanding, again, that, that word expansive, expanding his world and very strongly influencing a lot of the creation that he has done. Just the simple course that he didn't even take for credit audited set in a course on calligraphy is probably to credit that today we have dozens of fonts in, uh, at our disposal on our computers because he was attracted to how to make things aesthetically pleasing in addition to functional. But all of these are social influences, and it is important for us to acknowledge them.
Dr. Robin Stern: Well, Ana, I'm so thrilled to have you with me. And before we wrap up for today, I wanna ask that you'll come back another time, um, while your book is out there, and we can talk about what the impact it is having, um, and maybe your second book as you're talking, as we're thinking about that. Um, really your work is so inspiring, and please tell people, um, what something that you are, uh, that you're excited about that maybe you haven't said about the launch of the book.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Well, I, I am in process of talking about possibly coming to speak to New York in New York, but, um, uh, yes, I, there's definitely going to be a book party. Um, and it's going to be local where I live, uh, in the community, uh, where I am involved and where I, uh, where I breathe. Uh, so that is very meaningful to me personally, uh, in New Hampshire. And, um, uh, I, I am really looking forward to, um, speaking about it and telling people about it. And, uh, uh, I have recently taken a little bit of a step back and said, what was this experience like from, um, uh, from an obs almost as observing myself, as reflecting on the process, learning from it, and also saying, what are those points in the process that they're very much, uh, it, it's, it was a very meta process. It is reflecting on my own process, which is a creative process, writing a book about creativity. So it has several layers of reflection, and I had a lot of fun doing that.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's terrific. So tell people where they can find you if they want to buy your book. Uh, if they wanna read more about your work, if they wanna read your blog, tell us.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Uh, of course the book is available and every book website that, that you know of, wherever you prefer, uh, buying your books, uh, whether on Amazon or Bars and Noble or your local independent bookstore, the title is The Creativity Choice. Um, and, uh, I also love staying in Touch with People. And I have, um, uh, Substack newsletter that I write weekly, uh, that I invite people, uh, to join. It is free to subscribe and it just shows up in your email, and I can share the link, uh, in your, in your show notes.
Dr. Robin Stern: That's wonderful. Thank you again, and I know for everyone listening, it's been incredibly rich and meaningful hour, and we support your creative choice.
Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle : Thank you very much for having me, Robin.
Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Susan Petit Marcus Estevez and Imaginarium, also by Sally McCarton and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.
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