Podcast Player Episode 055

Dr. Robin Stern: Welcome to The Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm Robin Stern, co-founder and associate director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the bestselling book, the Gaslight Effect. I'm an educator and a psychoanalyst, but first and foremost, I'm a wife, a mother, a sister, aunt, and healer. And just like many of you, I was a victim of gaslighting. Please join me for each episode as I interview fascinating guests and explore the concept of gaslighting. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighted, how it feels, how to recognize it, and how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Before we begin, I want you to know that talking about gaslighting can bring up challenging and painful emotions. Give yourself permission to feel them. Some of you may wanna go more deeply with your emotions. While some of you may hold them more lightly, no matter what you're feeling, know that your emotions are a guide to your inner life. Your emotions are sacred and uniquely you respect and embrace them for they have information to give you. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect Podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for being here with me.

Dr. Robin Stern: Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of the Gaslight Effect podcast. I'm honored to have with me today Jessi Hersey, who is a passionate and resilient author, capturing readers hearts with her pen craft award-winning book, lit Soul, my journey back to Faith, a proud neurodivergent writer. She has bravely shared this, her story of leaving the Twin Flames universe, cult and experience that nearly cost her everything, including her identity and much more that we'll hear about her upcoming memoir promises an unflinching look at the harm inflicted on particularly the L-G-B-T-Q community by this organization. Jesse, thank you for giving voice to this experience, for um, being willing to be vulnerable and tell your story so that others may heal, so that others may have some protection in their minds against being approached and being seduced by cults, being gaslighted by people who were, are leaders of cults. So how did you get involved in Twin Flames and like what was going on in your life when you first were approached or when you first approached the people who would later be your cult leaders?

Jessi Hersey: Um, well, funny enough, I was jobless at the time, so I was in between, I know we're supposed to say in between jobs, but it feels like a lie when I say that. 'cause at that time I had given up on searching, so I just was jobless. I didn't feel like I was a great person member of society doing what you're supposed to. Um, I guess I was just at my lowest low was the best way to put it. And I actually met a third party person. Like I hadn't even heard of the concept of Twin Flames. I didn't know what that was. I was actually turning away from my faith 'cause I have a background in Christianity. Um, so I was turning away from all of that at that time and hating all of that passionately. Um, even just spirituality,

Dr. Robin Stern: Were you living alone at the time or were you living with family or friends? I was

Jessi Hersey: Living with my grandparents and I'm very thankful for them. I was in California living with my grandparents. Um, I watch, well I still do. I watch YouTube a lot and I found this tarot reader and thankfully there's multiples of them so I can say the name , but she went by Pisces Intuition. And um, yeah, the reading really hit with me with this situation I was in with someone that I was looking for friendship. I just want that to be known. But like even Sarah Berman wrote that in the article when she interviewed me. It was friendship. I wasn't looking for a relationship. I wasn't looking for this ultimate that never came to mind in the first place. It was just trying to understand what felt like a connection that I didn't understand. 'cause I had never felt it before or thought I had never felt it before.

Jessi Hersey: And um, Pisces Intuition is the one who introduced me to their book, um, twin Flames, finding Your Ultimate Lover, which I don't recommend anyone buy, that's just a gaslighting book and teaches you how to gaslight yourself in my personal opinion, uh, and experience. And then, um, after the book, she told me to join their group. So I eventually joined the group too, but I didn't talk right away. I mainly just watched and read and I couldn't handle a lot of the stuff I was seeing since a lot of it was women leaving their husbands to be with their twin flame. And for me personally, I still am old school, even to this day. I'm still old school. I believe in one partner and staying with one partner, whoever that may be, and staying true to them.

Dr. Robin Stern: When you say, um, you said a few minutes ago, if I heard you correctly, that you hadn't felt that before. Um, so what were, what's, what were you referring to and what were you ultimately looking for in the, that connection? And maybe not even in this pursuit, but in that connection. Like what did you think, um, was out there that you hadn't felt before?

Jessi Hersey: Um, well with this person, uh, I had worked with her previously before pretty much quitting the job that I was at. Um, we were just able to finish each other's sentences without, we hadn't really known each other that long period. We would spend time like walking to each other's cars, talking, um, trying to think of what else. We worked together a lot. So there was a lot of just talk and getting to know each other and it just felt like we knew each other without knowing each other. At least on my part. I know not on their part, but on my part, yes. I felt like, um, yeah, we just knew each other without actually having known each other. Um, and I didn't understand that connection. It would've been great if I had someone else explain that connection at that time, honestly, that wasn't Twin Flames universe, but that was my resource at that time.

Dr. Robin Stern: And so what happened next?

Jessi Hersey: Um, after I joined the group, it wasn't until I did my first initial post in the group that Jeff and Shaa did, welcome to the Family, welcome to the community. So glad you're here. Oh yeah. And I got to see a lot of posts from similar people going through similar things. I was similar connection, feelings of not having a way to explain what that connection was. And not everyone was saying relationship right away either in theirs. So I could relate. And Pisces intuition earlier, going a little backwards had explained to me, Hey, this isn't religious, this isn't spiritual. This is just partner. 'cause it was just that focus idea that a partner that's a friendship. So the idea of friendship was mainly the first pool for me at least.

Dr. Robin Stern: And did they promise you something more opportunities to find someone like that or, um, uh, what, what is the Twin Flames concept?

Jessi Hersey: So the concept is this is your forever person, but like in every lifetime, so after you die, you're together still again, and you're together. It's better than soulmate, it's better than any relationship ever in your life. So it trumps all the rest and is far more superior.

Dr. Robin Stern: Why is it more superior?

Jessi Hersey: Apparently it was more superior because of the whole idea of you'd still be with this person even after death. And re carnation kind of that idea played into the whole concept too. And the fact that it's supposed to be hard to be with your twin flames. So because they marry you and do everything that's within, so inside that is not aligned to your true self. 'cause that's the way they teach it. , they show you your twin flame, shows you your blocks. I'm using their terms. Um, your blocks to love or your blocks to this relationship, which isn't like a normal relationship. So therefore superior. You have to work on yourself. You have to heal yourself using the mirror exercise. You have to heal your way to this relationship. 'cause the more you heal, you apparently heal your twin flame too. So it only takes one person, which isn't true. It takes two people in a relationship to make a relationship work. But um, the way they teach it is it takes one to heal both because you're one and the same.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm, . So I mean, as you're describing it, it sounds like, uh, not a lot of fun and a lot of work. Um, so can you tell us more? Um, I'm sure that listeners are wondering as you're talking, um, if there is more explanation for the magic of that connection. And also can you describe the mirror exercise?

Jessi Hersey: Yes. I will happily describe that because I want to hear your take on it. . Um, so the merit exercise is you take, like you had a bad day at work, your boss yelled at you for something. Um, so you take that and you first go, it upsets me. My boss yelled at me, or it makes me mad or it makes me sad. Whatever that upset so upsets or whatever that emotion that's tied to the situation is. Um, so I guess it makes me mad. My boss yelled at me and then you turned it on yourself and you go, it makes me mad. I yelled at me. And then you take that, the next step is healing your inner child. That's literally what it is. So you can give yourself a hug or tell you it's okay, um, or give yourself something else you need, whatever that might be to calm yourself down.

Jessi Hersey: Whether, like I said, the hug, I guess I'm trying to think in a moment of even when I was a coach, what I did, um, hug, love, whatever that love might look like. So it's all within imagining in your head at this point of how you need to heal yourself there. And then once you feel nothing, so to feel nothing means you're at peace. So once you feel absolutely nothing, you've completed the merit exercise. But if you don't complete it, then you need to go deeper and see what that might be. And when you go deeper, you question that emotion that you are feeling deeper and rework the mirror exercise until you get it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Sounds pretty scary to me. So it sounds like it's all about you and what you're doing to yourself or not doing to yourself. Is that correct? Am I hearing you accurately? So it's really not, I mean, yes, the idea that somebody can make you angry, nobody can make you angry. Right. But, um, can you feel triggered because of something somebody said? Of course. Can you feel anger because or hurt because someone did something else? Yes. And then do, do you owe it to yourself to explore that? Yes. But does it mean at the end you feel nothing? I hope not.

Jessi Hersey: Yeah. That's what they teach and it's, I've been calling it the gaslight uh, exercise instead of the mirror exercise. 'cause that's what I personally see it as. And I've read some of your book, not all of it yet, but I've read a good portion of it so far, .

Dr. Robin Stern: And they're directly, um, telling you how, what it is you should do and how to, um, and what the real thing is that's going on. So you may feel something else and think something else, but you don't know it because the mirror will tell you differently or something like that. I mean I I I'd love to hear more about it and more about why you felt like you were gaslighting yourself when you began to think about it.

Jessi Hersey: Uh, because it was used, like for example, if Jeff in a coaching meeting said, we're not making enough money, it's all your fault. Uh, you little blank blankety blanks or something like that. And if you're upset by me saying this, that's your block to love and your problem that you need to mirror. So making abuse, okay, like you are not aware of it when you're in there. 'cause I didn't pick up on that red flag until honestly Sarah Berman's first article. But there's a lot of that that happens at least in the coaching department of you didn't do this, you didn't do that. Oh, if you have a problem with me or if you questioned me, you need to mirror that. That's something you need to mirror. That's a block you have. That's your problem. If you turn it on him, he'll go, that's your problem. Or Shalia, if you turn it on her, no, that's your problem. You need to heal that. I already healed that within myself. So you need to heal that

Dr. Robin Stern: classic gaslighting where the gaslight deflects and pivots and blames you for something or, or just doesn't wanna take responsibility. No, that isn't what happened. Here's what happened. You did it to yourself.

Jessi Hersey: Yeah, you got it. So if you have any questions or anything that's automatically shut down with you need to do the mirror exercise or go watch uh, twin Flame Ascension school or go watch Life burlo. But most of the time it's just go mirror it.

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-Hmm . So I'm fascinated in a scary way. Um, what is the uh, twin Flames Ascension School?

Jessi Hersey: Okay, so Twin Flames Ascension School is pretty much a relationship class on how to handle your relationship with your twin flames. But technically, which I even wrote about this in my own articles, um, it's just Jeff and Shalia talking about their everyday lives and then somehow getting the mirror exercise in there and somehow getting stuff that's already in their book. So they'll even go back to stories they've already told multiple times. But they also use, at least when I was in psychology class, I learned this as a technique to really get you liking something, even if you don't like it. They would repeat a lot of the same stuff per episode. I don't know what to call it, per thing of teaching of course. And their courses are really long. Like I have a very short attention span and I was forced to watch an hour and like 35 to 45 minute class per class. Um, and if you aren't able to get through it, instead of logically saying, oh I don't have the attention span for it, it's, oh, you need to mirror it, that's your problem. It's great. This is gold. Like Jeff always hypes things up more than they actually are of it's great, it's gold. You won't find this anywhere else. So technically when I first left the cult, I had learned that you can find it for free without paying a dime .

Dr. Robin Stern: So when you were in the cult, um, what, what actually happened? Like where, where did you go to connect with people? What um, did you experience while you were connecting with people? Did you have one-on-one time with the leaders of the cult? Like how did, how did it work on a daily basis?

Jessi Hersey: Daily basis is, well one, you have to have a coach and at that time, which now I know they have only a one coach per person, but that's only 'cause financially that wasn't working out for them. But besides that in my time period you could have multiple different coaches, but you have to have a coach within the community. If you are a coach yourself, that's a guideline, which I was a coach. I wasn't there right away, but I was a coach. And then you are supposed to pretty much express yourself in the group, tell your story constantly. I was part of Meme Squad and like five or six other things too. I was a mod. So I did well as the docuseries called it. I was also part of security. Um, there was a lot I was a part of. So no matter what you were very busy. Like whether I was in coaching meetings or watching the forum or memes squad or the other jobs I did, I did customer service management. So that's getting a bunch of emails from people coming in asking for help and then setting them up with a coach, including setting them up with myself doing the introduction, which we had pre-written introductions. Um, there was just a lot.

Dr. Robin Stern: Was this a job? Did you get paid to do this?

Jessi Hersey: No. you were not paid. The only time you were paid if you were paid was if you sold a class. So if you sold Twin Flame Ascension school or Life Purpose class or at that time we had them both combined together. They don't have that anymore. They have the everything package I know, but they would just combine them together. But if you sold one or the other, it was based off of how much that costs. But right now they have it higher than they used to when I was there. So the cost was like if you sold Twin Flame Detention school, it was like $111 you got out of the $1,111 that it cost to get. Or if you sold Life Purpose class, I think that was a more expensive one. I might be getting my numbers mixed, but that was like $222 per time you sold that, which to get the entire package was $2,222. And if you got it all together, I think it was like $6,066 or 4,044, something like that. So that's the only time you would get paid. Otherwise the jobs that are jobs that you should get paid hourly for it. No, you never were paid for.

Dr. Robin Stern: So the only people who really benefited and the only people who were always right were Jeff and Shalia

Jessi Hersey: And um, anyone they used to protect themselves. So coaches were used and um, if you're part of the inner circle, some I heard, which I don't know if it's true or not, would have like a salary. One person I know was supposedly had a salary, but other than that, and I know it wasn't a high one either, but you had to be in the inner circle to be close to that or your coaching business just had to be making money on its own, which the only way to get that is if you're in harmonious union with your twin flame.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I I, um, two questions. Um, uh, one is how did being in the cult uh, affect relationships you had either within the cult or um, outside the cult? And were you like in many cults isolating yourself or I asked to isolate yourself from people who had known you before. So, um, let me start with that question.

Jessi Hersey: I eventually, yes, had to isolate myself to um, only choose my twin flame. 'cause that was taught that you can only choose your twin flame even if you're not physically with them. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: What does that mean? You can only choose your twin flame.

Jessi Hersey: That means anyone. So you can't be any, any relationship outside of your twin flame. So if you are in a relationship that's technically cheating on your twin flame, so only your twin flame is your true love or your true person. So they're the ones you're supposed to be with. And how it was taught was you can't date, which eventually they changed those rules like in 2020, um, when I left. But only your twin flame was the only person you could be with. The only person you could really have like a normal relationship with. My relationship outside of the cult was dying gradually because I thought my relationship with my twin flame was the highest and greatest relationship ever. In reality. I wasn't even in a relationship, not truly at least .

Dr. Robin Stern: So how did you meet your twin flame? How was your twin flame introduced to you and um, was the, I know that you had wanted to talk about when you were told that you were a man trapped in a woman's body. Was that part of the introduction to your twin flame or did that come later?

Jessi Hersey: That came much later. Um, I came in with a twin play, not like physically with one, but one that I was told by Pisces Intuition was my twin flame . So it was anyways told by someone else. Um, so I met this person at work, that's where I met this person.

Dr. Robin Stern: And then you told um, Pisces intuition about that person and that and she said, or they said that that person was your twin flame.

Jessi Hersey: Yeah. 'cause she was or they, yeah, we should stick with those. They, uh, were with someone at the time that they believed were their twin flame too. And then they also told me they're actually the person I first did the mirror exercise with too. Um, so there was a lot I did with this third party person that I had never seen in the actual group itself when I joined. But um, yeah, so I was told by this person that that's my twin flame. So I stuck with it even when I joined the group, which they seemed a little uneasy when I said that. And we were a same sex, so female female relationship. And I was told that one has to be the divine feminine, one has to be the divine masculine. And I was told in the group of twin flame universe that I was the divine feminine, so the female and that my twin flame was divine masculine. Things didn't change until about like the second wave of coupling, um, in 2020 that I was divine masculine. So the man in the women's body in full 100% energy. Actually in my YouTube video coming out this weekend, I describe how anti L-G-B-T-Q, uh, Jeff and Lee are since they don't include non-binary or technically trans in their rhetoric of 100% feminine or 100% masculine. So there is no gray area just just man or woman, which is technically not L-G-B-T-Q-I-A friendly at all. That's actually anti L-G-B-T-Q and scary .

Dr. Robin Stern: So how did it, your relationship with your twin flame, uh, grow? I mean, you know, in real life you would meet somebody, maybe go for coffee, maybe go for dinner, um, have some conversations. I guess even in a difficult or gaslighting relationship, you'd still be having some conversations. Maybe you go home to your house, they go home to their house, um, you go on another date, like what happens, like what happens in the, how does it progress, how does it, um, how do you meet, where do you meet? What kinds of things are or um, are your conversations prescripted basically

Jessi Hersey: They're pretty prescripted. Like mine, I did let know that you're my twin flame. And they didn't believe that at all. And actually later in time hunted me down multiple times just to threaten me, which I don't blame them considering just the situation, but they did, they actually hunted down twin flames universe and twin Flames universe told me I need to heal the block that was happening with that. Um, I can't fully go into that here, but I do write, I'm not quite in that part of the story in my memoir yet, but it wasn't a normal relationship to put it that way. We had done the getting to know each other, but then we'd done the no longer getting to know each other. That comes from the runner chaser idea of twin flames and because mine was supposedly running was divide masculine. Um, so yeah, there's that it wasn't the healthiest relationship 'cause it wasn't an actual relationship. Um, I don't know if that helps clear things up at all.

Dr. Robin Stern: It well it just adds more complexity, which in some ways I'll clear things up because maybe there was no clarity to be had. Right? 'cause it was all, um, folding in on itself and folding in on you and gaslighting. And um, um, when did you begin to think maybe this is not okay, maybe this is weird or I don't like that mirror mirroring exercise or what's up with this? Like when, what were the red flags for you? First of all, how good were you there and what were the red flags for you?

Jessi Hersey: Well my first red flag was after stopping, watching and doing the mirror exercise. So watching employment ascension, school life purpose class, like going through a whole, I had the word before like a whole almost like, uh, getting yourself rid of all the bad. I don't remember what that's called, but I did that for like a month and just only read Sarah Berman's article. And I paid closer attention to what Jeff and were saying to the public versus to the forum versus to the coaches versus to our headquarters. Um, which was super top secret. It was called like digital headquarters. Um, they were all very different things. So if you made it to the digital headquarters level, it was mainly threats coaching level. It was threats with, oh here's a little kindness, wrinkled in forum. We're gonna be as kind as possible and loving as possible. And then public we're the greatest people in the world. Look at me. Um, that was kind of the not meeting what someone who is honest would be saying. So anything they said trickled, trickled, trickled and changed. And that was a huge red flag to me of, oh my gosh, the ex members that were part of Sarah Bourbon's article were correct. This is true. I'm in a cult. This sucks. I don't know how to get out.

Jessi Hersey: But that was my first really, really huge red flag. But I had to first stop doing everything They ask you to do repeatedly in order to get a little logic working.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So it's often, um, that exactly that. Pulling back from taking a pause from um, what, uh, what they're saying in order for you to be able to think straight, what were the actual tactics they used? What kinds of things did they say or do to continue to manipulate and control their you and their members? Like when you say you saw these red flags and then you thought, how am I gonna get out? Like, why wouldn't you just be able to say I'm outta here?

Jessi Hersey: Um, the threats that came with it is thankfully they wrote those threats to the ex members who were part of the first, um, article. It's horrible that it happened to them, but at least there's the writing proof of what they actually say in the group too. It's not just them. Um, you're threatened that you'll be pretty much hunted down. You'll never have a job. Uh, you'll be homeless, you won't have any friends or family, what else you're choosing hell, you'll be a terrible human of society. You won't be able to work function anything. So pretty much all the bad things you can think of happening to you that will be due to you leaving that group. And that was a constant threat, especially when a person would leave, they'd heighten that threat again.

Dr. Robin Stern: So how did they get to the point? Did you get to the point as a member, how did other people get to the point as a member where um, they believed that rather than saying that's insane. Like of course it's not gonna happen. Like I'm not gonna lose my job, I'm not gonna be homeless. I have family. Like what are, what has happened up to that point that they have such power over your mind?

Jessi Hersey: Well, they become your only source. Oh, they're your only source of friends. Your only source of anything. And they'll happily cut you off for that too. They show that with members that leave because you're asked to automatically block them and that they're going against God. That they're, there's a lot and logic doesn't play a role. It actually takes, like, it took me a little over a year to get my full logic minds. Well I sometimes due to PSD and go backwards, but for the most part to get to my logical brain working again. Um, it's powerful and scary because yeah, they threaten and then they show you it, they follow through with it on the outside world. Like I got a cease and desist when I first left for writing an article. Actually three articles about them and the only people that would know it was about them is them.

Jessi Hersey: The public wouldn't know that. But they still sent out a cease and desist to silence me. Um, I have the articles back up now and not planning on taking it down anytime soon, but they did try to silence me too. And part of their threat when you're leaving is they will hunt you down, they'll sue you, they'll do whatever they need to do to silence you, but they don't say silence you, uh, they just do. So we aren't bullied or they become the victim, but that's what they play. So when a member leaves, they're the bully. The person, the member that left is a toxic bully. .

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. I'm just more gaslighting as um, a constant. So where did you meet these people? Like, uh, physically, where did you go? Is it all online?

Jessi Hersey: Um, it is for the most part all online. They every so often have a meeting time period. The first ever meeting was I, I was a part of, we all met in New York City and both got Airbnb housings. Um, so I got to meet a lot of the members in person and then Jeff and Sheia in person and it was interesting. What ,

Dr. Robin Stern: What's that like besides of

Jessi Hersey: Um, well I have high anxiety in general in meeting people. So my anxiety was really high. And there's one thing I actually haven't publicly said, so I think this will be great to do it on here. Um, when I was talking to Shelia, so I get motion sick easily on planes and I ended up puking for the first time in forever on a plane. And I told Shelia that I puked on the plane and her response was, oh . That was her entire conversation. You know how people are normally supposed to go, oh, I'm so sorry. Are you feeling better? Oh, that was, that was our entire conversation. She moved on to someone else to talk to.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, compassion for uh, and empathy for you or any other member doesn't sound like it's part of the recipe from their perspective.

Jessi Hersey: No, um, like I didn't catch onto it at that time at all. I just thought it was, oh this is a block I need to heal because she didn't say anything. It's my problem. 'cause I did the mirror exercise a lot daily, so it was a daily part of life.

Dr. Robin Stern: How did and how did they get you to do that? That was the way you were going to grow and that was the way you were going to be a better twin flame to you were twin flame.

Jessi Hersey: It's the way you manifest your twin flame into your reality and um, show love and compassion to yourself and yeah, , that that was what it was mainly doing. So bringing your twin flame closer to you and loving yourself. And that's what they said at least.

Dr. Robin Stern: How do you give yourself, um, compassion and forgiveness now for, um, not catching on sooner for um, uh, just the very terrible experience of having, of being un mind control and um, which is just something that happened to you being vulnerable and wanting more for yourself and wanting self-growth. Right? That all that got twisted and you were gaslighted and, and on wit unwittingly entered into this terrible, what I call gaslight tango, where you know, you just accept somebody's hand saying we're gonna dance now. Right? And you think the dance is gonna be fun, joy in this case, self-growth and no, it's all about twisting reality until everything is about blaming you and you're causing all your own pain. And you know, like how do you feel now? Are you, are you okay?

Jessi Hersey: Um, I do still have my moments because I was told I was a divine masculine in 2020. Um, that was hard because that does a lot to you psychologically. Like I still have sometimes triggers. I don't have 'em as harsh and as badly as I did in 20 20, 20 21 and 2022. Um, but like if a child, which I get, I know the logic of a, a child can't tell the difference, but if a child just slips up and says hello sir. Or if someone I'm working with says sir, um, I do get on the defense sometimes, but that's only 'cause it's a trigger. And I always stop myself in the middle of the trigger and choose to think it through and really say, is this, is this something I'm actually feeling or is this just a trigger response? And most of the time it's just a trigger response. So I think before I speak when it comes to my own triggers, because if I actually reacted, that wouldn't be good because that would be an emotional response that comes from honestly PTSD of everything I went through in the cult .

Dr. Robin Stern: It just, um, really heartbreaking to to think that people would do that to other people. I mean, cult leaders are not nice people and are sick in my opinion. And um, there particular version of sick is to be manipulative and gaslighting and um, controlling of other people's lives. Um, and so sorry that you had to go through that, but what an incredible gift you are giving to other people who are in that place or healing from that place. And um, how brave you are, how brave you were to get out. Like how did you do it?

Jessi Hersey: Oh, that actually comes into my second step, which is when I followed through with everything they asked, just like I did their mirror exercise and work that supposedly gives you your twin flame for over three years. Um, I followed through and told my mom, Hey, I am actually a man in a woman's body. And she questioned that not the way she used to. 'cause I do want viewers to know for a fact we did lose contact for a little over a year, um, which was hard 'cause I was close and still am close to family. But she asked me, which is a highlight in the film, well the docuseries of Is this you or is this them? She didn't say cult, she didn't like she did in the past. She did call them colts in the past. Um, she just said them and I had to stop because I wasn't trained.

Jessi Hersey: They do train you in what to say in those situations. I wasn't trained what to say. I had to actually think for myself for once. And I replied, it took me a little while, I don't know how long, but it took me a little while and I said them and later that evening I actually went on YouTube and looked up, um, why do people join cults? And Dr. Lala LE's video called Why Do People Join Cults? ? Um, did like a three or four minute video explaining why people joined cults. And yeah, that ultimately helped me get out once I talked to my mom after that video again and cried for hours on end 'cause I wanted out. But yeah, um, she's ultimately the one who gave me the key to getting out 'cause I was scared and didn't know how to get out. I even told her when she asked me after crying for like at least five to six hours . Um, she asked me, so are you gonna leave? How are you gonna get out? And I told her, I wanna get out, I just don't know how. Um, and then she said, why don't you just block them? And that's what I did, , I just blocked them all.

Dr. Robin Stern: Wow. How brave and what a good idea

Jessi Hersey: . Yeah, but my logic wasn't working fully so it would've taken someone else to tell me anyways.

Dr. Robin Stern: Often does because when in a gaslighting or a coercive control relationship, you are only getting information from one channel. That's your reality. It becomes your reality. Even if you question it at the beginning, like that's it. You're just hearing it's over and over and they have you practicing it and going through scenarios and then suddenly you're in this other place where somebody says either that's crazy or that's crazy and here's how to deal with it. Um, or just do this. And maybe it's not a time for logic, maybe it's just a time for knowing that this person who loves you and cares about you is helping you.

Jessi Hersey: Yeah, it wasn't easy though. When I did do the blocking, I was actually really, really scared. I even remember just sitting on my deck outside staring, which I was on a golf course at that time, but just staring really scared. And even telling my mom, I'm so scared that uh, they're gonna come after me. Which they did. They did in fact come after me. But that's the only thought that was rolling through my head of, oh my gosh, they're gonna come after me, they're gonna come after me. Um, I'm so scared, oh, I chose hell. I don't know what to do. Even when I was going to my day job that I still have today, um, I was so scared that they were gonna hunt me down there and do something to get me fired. Like that was the only thing running through my head for at least a year. . It was scary that doing the cease and desist didn't help with that train of thought.

Dr. Robin Stern: And then you stayed the course, like you didn't go back. So how, what were you saying to yourself and what were you doing that helped you to not go back?

Jessi Hersey: Um, I had friends, well that felt like friends at the time. Um, they aren't really in my life currently, but someone else was going through a hard time at that time period. And we kind of leaned on each other pretty heavily. Um, we'd hang out, we'd talk outside. We actually worked together. Um, and it became a friendship. So we'd like go on random hikes or just go and eat, um, or we'd just go and talk or we'd sometimes like I'd stay late sometimes at work just to stay and talk and we'd both just talk. So at that time that person definitely was there for me and I was there for them. So we kind of were equal partners in helping each other at that time. And then an old friend who stuck with me through the cult and after the cult and is still my best friend to this day that I've known since I was four years old.

Jessi Hersey: Um, her and I reconnected. It was definitely a process. I'm still to this day in the process of fixing relationships, like even with family members, it was hard because some of them were still mad at me in 2020 and didn't understand 'cause you're a different person. You're not who you truly are, you're someone else. I did things that I would never think I would do in my life. Um, and I did. Uh, it's just about mending those relationships and apologizing for where you were wrong and just taking responsibility and speaking about it. Like the docuseries led to me speaking and saying, yeah, I was in a cult. I had to tell the jobs I was at at the time that yeah, I was in a cult and I'm gonna be in a docuseries. Um, so there was a lot of, a lot of mending and a lot of honesty and a lot of dealing with it that I'm still dealing with to this day. I don't know when I won't deal with it, but they're not easy topics to talk about and it's not easy to always work through. But now my best friend and I we're back to the way we used to be. She's got kids, so it's great. Um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. So bonding in like a, a former iteration of yourself, that was really the true you has been healing sounds like.

Jessi Hersey: Yes. And it's a constant process. Like even people that have been outta cults for 10 plus years are still in that process.

Dr. Robin Stern: Of course. How could you not be? It's such a profound, um, it's so profound when you look back now, um, what do you think the, the experience you've had or how has the experience you've had shaped your, your view of your life now? Your view of relationships? I mean, do you think that your relationships will be haunted by, um, like the ghost of gaslighting or, um, like, uh, fear of trust or, um, how do you, how do you recognize when you're having your own thoughts and, and step into your own power? How has the experience left you right now? I mean, um, what's it left you with right now?

Jessi Hersey: Um, well I feel, I guess I'm getting back to my mom told me I was always fearless when I was little. She reminded me of that. Um, even when I first got outta the cult and when I first got out, I didn't feel fearless. I didn't, yes, I wrote the article, that was my way of being fearless, but writing is my way of being fearless. And now speaking, I feel like I'm back to those roots of fearlessness of I don't care. I'm gonna speak my truth, I'm gonna tell the truth. I'm going to make sure to protect other older 'cause it's technically young adults and children that are in the cult. People seem to not highlight the children portion. Like there's some in there that have been in there since they were 16 to 18 years old, most of them 16 starting or 15. There has been a 14-year-old, there has been a 9-year-old.

Jessi Hersey: There has been. And then there's even just the parents with their children that are in the cult themselves. And then there are baby Grace , for example, Jeff and Shelia's child that they worked hard on getting through insemination and whatever it is, RTFI don't know, they did a lot to make the child happen and make the child be a girl because that's what they spoke about as their third twin flame. But again, there are children in this cult. I wanna highlight that. Yes, they're adults, but the adults are the only ones that are ever gonna be highlighted to protect their own selves on that. Um, but yeah, it's been, yeah, it's terrifying. And the fact that because Jeff and Chiia say no, they're mainly adults. Everyone just goes, oh, at least public wise, instead of questioning that go, oh, oh wait, they have a child, but oh, okay, not a big deal. Who cares? Yeah, they're still children .

Dr. Robin Stern: And then when those children are growing up, the only reality is that cult reality because they're, they haven't had any time to have a like, gee, that feels like my old self. That is not, that is their selves, you know, the, I mean the impact of the cult teachings and the reality being served up and it, it's like the, the Truman show. Like you're like living in that kind of, um, did you see the Truman Show where you're living in like one little bubble and that's all you know, but really there's a big world out there. And um, in this case, how scary and destructive is that are all those teachings. Um, so what, how brave you are and how fearless to use your word to speak out now to protect others to um, really shine a light on the destructive gaslighting and course of control strategies, methods, behaviors that you've had to endure.

Dr. Robin Stern: And then not only leave, but now you're really thriving. Um, and uh, hopefully enjoying some of those old times with your friend or new old times and, and just being embraced by people who love you. But being able to tell the difference, I mean it's just terrifying to think about not only why people are doing this with all due respect to mental illness, but but also the, just the impact. I mean when I started to think about what I wanted to write about gaslighting, it was what's the impact on people? Because a lot of people knew what the, the movie was, what is gaslighting. It's easy to see, but it's not so easy to see that it can be soul destroying and life destroying for people. And um, I thank you so much for all of your work. And tell us a little bit about the memoir.

Jessi Hersey: Okay. Um, well the memoir actually on my substack, I'm gonna be going over the background of it and kind of leading into writing it. The memoir came about during the whole talk of the docuseries. 'cause I was first reached out to by Amazon and then eventually I was reached out to by Netflix. Um, but it was through an ex member reached out to . Um, but, and that was my first time actually talking to an ex-member in years. Like I am one of the stories that is, was completely isolated from anyone. So I got out and was mixed up with a bunch of ex members and then I isolated myself from every single ex member and never looked into anything. Twin Flames universe didn't even read about anything. Twin Flames, universe didn't care. Um, the docuseries kind of re-sparked something in me that hadn't been alive in a while, which I'm thankful for of this is a great opportunity 'cause I do, I like educating others in my own experience. And then this experience, I think it's really important because gaslighting happens and gaslighting happens in just one-on-one relationships like you even described in the beginning of your book. 'cause still in the beginning I'm a slow reader, but, um,

Dr. Robin Stern: Glad you're reading

Jessi Hersey: What,

Dr. Robin Stern: Glad you're reading it

Jessi Hersey: . Thank you. I really like the way you describe it as a tango because it absolutely is a tango. And when you are at a low point in your life, you are going to end up, whether that's a cult or just in a gaslighting relationship, you're very prone to it. And um, yeah, this kind of brought about, hey, how can I educate others? And then the fact like my family members that are close, 'cause I'm in the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A community, um, and a lot of my family is too, I couldn't help but see more of the issue coming about more than ever before. 'cause my experience is quite the opposite of an actual trans human being. It's similar but opposite, um, since I had never felt it. And someone who is trans actually feels it. And when they follow through with the process of changing are so happy because they're their true selves.

Jessi Hersey: And in my case, if I would've followed through with it, I would've regretted it, insanely regretted it. But a lot have been coerced that was part of my same group, um, into changing themselves physically. And um, allegedly, I'll just add that for safety purposes, , I don't like what they're doing to the trans community. They already have laws in place in America in general that are hurting human beings and I don't like that. So I'm writing my memoir to highlight my own experience, like go away more in depth and even describe my twin flame relationship. And I've been doing a lot of studying myself. I am, I don't, I didn't make it to master's or PhD level thanks to my psychology teachers telling me I couldn't. But, um, I do love Psychology . I

Dr. Robin Stern: Pursue it if you want

Jessi Hersey: . Yes. Um, I've been kind of doing more statistical studies to add into my own memoir itself and even having some background that I'll have proof of that I speak of my experience. The only proof I do have 'cause the Marshall Fires kinda burned a lot of it. But the proof I do have, I'm trying to make it almost like a thesis memoir yet memoir. And I'm trying to keep it, I actually just recently hired an editor who is non-binary, um, who is trauma informed and who is gonna help me better find my voice. 'cause I'm having trouble right now finding my voice in my memoir, um, in a way that still speaks to my community and still speaks to just the larger public in a way that's understanding and, um, educational. 'cause I wanna make sure my voice is heard and not through my gibberish that I sometimes write. I'm still letting my gibberish happen first so I can get it on paper, the story, but I also wanna al have other eyes that can say, Hey, this is kind of insensitive, or Hey, can you add or elaborate here? Can you do this and this and this? And that's mainly what I hired this editor to do.

Dr. Robin Stern: So I'd be happy to help you if you want extra eyes on, on what you are writing. And also I want you to keep in mind that, um, somebody who is a writer told me a long time ago, you, when you write, you write with the door closed so nobody can see it. You write whatever you want and then when you ready to edit, you open the door like so then other people in you let other eyes on it. And definitely, I I think what you're doing is wonderful and um, I I hope we have the opportunity to have many more conversations, tell people who are listening to this very meaningful and vulnerable conversation. Thank you again. Um, I'm thanking you, but tell people where they can find you.

Jessi Hersey: Uh, you can find me on, well YouTube is Jessie's stories. Um, it's like Jessie's stories, a bunch of numbers, but if you type in Jesse's stories, you'll see a cartoon one and then you'll see mine. Um, and then I'm Jesse's stories on IG Instagram, sorry, I'm used to saying IG . And then, um, I'm pretty much Jesse's stories everywhere. So Jesse h stories on TikTok, and then you can find me on Goodreads as Jesse Hersey. So if you type Jesse Hersey, you should find me on Amazon, Goodreads and all the other ones. Um, yeah, you can find me in multiple places, ,

Dr. Robin Stern: I know people will look for you. And, uh, I just really support everything you're doing and think, uh, it's wonderful for you to be lifting your voice for yourself and for other people. And again, thank you for coming on and I'll look forward to next time.

Jessi Hersey: Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Dr. Robin Stern: Thanks for joining me for today's episode. I hope you found it helpful and meaningful. If you want to listen to other episodes of the Gaslight Effect podcast, you can find them@robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please leave a rating and a review. I also invite you to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. This podcast is produced by Mel Yellen, Mike Lens, and me. All of my work is supported by Suzen Pettit Marcus Estevez and Omaginarium, also by Sally McCartan and Jackie Daniels. I'm so grateful to have many people supporting me and especially grateful for all of you, my listeners.